So everyone that denounces this lèse majesté as being repression, of not only the Thai people ,but foreingers also, will be put on a list of “not welcome in Thailand, charge them if they land”. We should focus on making that list as big as possible by spreading the word pertaining to Thai repression and using Stephan as their example of how they operate.
A divine king has no need for enforcing the public’s perception of him, a truly divine king wins over public perception by his deeds not by legislation.
i applaud the adding of my name to your list Stephen, as i applaud any name on that list, that rebukes the divinity of your repressive regime that rules Thailand. I will applaud the day Thailand becomes a truly free country where any Thai can express their opinion without fear of persecution.
Stephan’s repetitive, boring, unoriginal & abusive comments are dragging this discussion down. Does the webmaster allow them as “high quality”?
How can he call someone an “anonymous coward,” when he doesn’t identify himself? Many people on this blog use pseudonyms, for very good reasons: we live in a repressive society full of cretinous, obsessive bigots like Stephan, who would harm us if we were as open as we could be in a democracy.
Also see Prof. Borwornsak on “The Dynamics of Thai Politics” A very interesting view of the establishments perception and rationalisation of the situation and how it came about.
I think part of the problem is the current polarisation of opposed perceptions and as usual vested interests stirring it up.
Interestingly in the English Civil War (or revolution if you will) the rallying cries for the Royalists were “God & the King” Whilst for the Parliamentarians it was “The King & Parliament”
“Suwicha Thakho, 34, a former oil worker, was detained in January and admitted to altering the photos of revered King Bhumibol Adulyadej and his family, the Bangkok Criminal Court said. It did not say how the photos were changed or where they appeared, although local news reports said some appeared on YouTube.”
I agree with polo — protecting succession is probably top motive.
Anyone know what picture was actually posted? Was it of the king or of, say, the wife of the Crown Prince? If it were the latter it would substantiate the point.
You are showing your true colours Stephen and the true colours of the repressive and vile nature of lèse majesté. If only the Thai people had the right of free speech we would know their opinion, but that’s just not the way your divine king operates is it?
Threats against foreigners whom know the truth of your king and his repressive nature, will not stop the world from knowing how he operates.
Your threats and abuse i find most amusing. It seems you think we should revere your king under threat of lèse majesté were we to put foot in Thailand. So it is true your king rules by fear not from a point of earned respect.
Whats the bet your real name isn’t Stephen either???
I am Namrata Goswami, conducting research in La Trobe on Conflict Issues in North East India till August 02, 2009.
It was interesting to see your website especially on the Stillwell Road since I have also travelled some of the areas like Ledo/ Margherita that you have mentioned.
“Idiots in my book are those who thinks others point of view are bad and their ideas are the best.”
By your own definition, then, you are…?
Leaving name-calling out of it, I am not quite sure why apologists globally seem to think that because someone is in control of abuse that makes the abuse justified and untouchable. The idea that ‘abuse’ per se is a relative term and it depends on who you talk with is sheer bluster to avoid the reality that mankind needs a shakeup and some reform. You can talk all you want about geographical, ethnic, cultural and political divisions and reigning authorities, but when anyone on the face of this planet gets 20 years for writing and posting online, you have an unjust situation and certainly one with human rights violations in it.
Don’t call the “When in Rome” quote up to explain non-interference. We all know just what negative, as well as positive, contributions the Romans brought, and some of it could have been avoided with protection of the individual. You neglect the UN Charter on Human Rights, apparently, and seem, if I understand you correctly, that not complying with its provisions is fine when you are in charge of government. Or am I misreading something?
I am from Western New York, by the way.
What a wonderful rememberance of a bygone era my son has embarked on. To the baby boomer generation of America, nostalgia is a wonderful way to look back to a simpler time and I hope that the people of Southeast Asia will enjoy this as well.
It would be great and inspiring to all if the King acts benevolently in regard to those accused of lese majeste. It would certainly be in keeping with the rule of compassion, one of the ten virtues that should be practiced by a ruler. Needless to say, his popularity would increase tremendously.
I don’t have a problem with Lese Majeste. People may think it is a way for the elite to maintain control, I think that may have some truth, but, I also think the values that lese majeste ‘asks’ of its people outweigh the negatives.
In the UK, there is little respect anymore for authority, yes, people have more personal freedom, but, the streets are dangerous! Thailand is a far more peaceable society overall, because the population are have a better attitude to an authority they adore (the King, not the politicians).
This would be a problem if respect was ‘demanded’ in a tyrannical regime, ‘ like Zimbabwe for instance, but the King of Thailand is a model King, one that is constantly trying to improve and better society, and one that deserves the love given to him by Thai people. If people have a problem showing respect to such a figure, I think they are probably the ones that need to be weeded out, including foreigners.
If something isn’t broken, I don’t want to try and fix it. If you do, whose to say you won’t end up in a far worse situation than you have? Do you really want the politicians to hold all the cards? Respect the Thai Royal family and what the Thai’s want, that’s what I say.
I agree with your sentiment, that the law is absurd and archaic. But I think your analysis — along with the hopes of the academic petitioners — is wrong-footed. For what reason should the king “push for reform of a law that makes his rule seem fragile and even a little vindictive” ? There’s no reason he should do so.
In fact it only appears that way to foreigners and to a very small though active fragment of Thai society. The king’s audience is Thais, not foreigners, and they mostly believe in him, in his mythology. For most of them the LM law is a positive, supportive part of that relationship, in the same way that Catholics, Jews, Muslims, whatever their own private doubts, do not want to hear outsiders disparage their religious leaders and dogmatic contradictions.
My guess is that the king and close aides, and maybe the whole palace institution, are uncomfortableand dismayed with the abuse of the LM law by politicians — the king never liked politicians anyway.
But they have one bottom line: survival of the institution. And most Thais probably cannot imagine Thailand without the monarchy. So those two things come together in accepting the need to maintain the LM law as is.
Your analysis — that “the palace takes a dim view of constitutional or legal developments that dilute its power”; that “The goal … is to remain unchallenged by dissenters, by populists … democratic politics” that protecting the LM law reflects “the priorities and prejudices of the elite as they go about the business of maintaining control” — this analysis looks too far, makes too much judgement on what the palace collectively, and the king and core royals, are thinking.
They are not thinking about constitution or power dilution or elite class privilege. They are simply thinking: “King Bhumibol is immune to criticism but his son is not. If we allow any room for criticism the son’s succession might be challenged. We do not have a viable alternative. So we must not allow any criticism to undermine the succession. So we cannot loosen the LM law, and in fact we have to get things under control after Thaksin, Handley’s TKNS, the Thai Studies Conference (with critical papers on royal wealth and the royal projects); and things like Fah Diaokan. So we have to set examples: first the drunk farang in Chiangmai, then Harry N. and also poor Suwicha.” All smalltimers, none willing to put on a media-focused show trial like Giles’ or Sulak’s would be.
If those examples have their desired effect — and let’s watch how academics, journalists and internet posters proceed over the next year — then the palace will have otherwise no problem with Aphisit’s whatever efforts at building democracy or even cutting elite power if he has it in him.
There’s just this bottom line of succession and the successor and a determination to have nothing interfere. They do not have a game plan beyond that, and that’s why I think you are expounding too much too deeply on the use of the LM law. The palace collectively may have thought about all those other things, but it comes down to the simple formula of sustaining the throne to the next generation.
There’s an old saying that goes like this “When in Rome, do as the Romans do.” In other words respect the customs and laws of the country you are visiting/living in.
Regardless of what is ‘accepted’ as the norms, outside of Thailand, when it comes to freedom of expression, within the Royal Kingdom of Thailand it is an offence to show disrespect to the royal family.
The same could be said of North Korea, Myanmar, Cuba, Libya,
Egypt, to name only a few countries.
Let this be a warning to whomever, that before you decide to travel abroad, you had better do your homework and know the laws of the nation(s), that you intend to travel to.
There are NO EXCUSES accepted in such violations .
However, I don’t think we’ll see cooperation to fight the “Axis of Blasphemy” and free speech and expression will come down to power relations between nation-states. As I have mentioned before in another comment, it is much easier for Western academics to publicly pick on Thailand’s LM Laws than China’s human rights record (especially when many institutions rely on Chinese international students to operate – or in the midst of the GFC the West may be in need of China’s stash of dollars to lubricate the world economy)…
And we haven’t begin to address how the increasingly rigid, and possibly conflicting, notion of “political correctness” (PC) in the “Axis of Blasphemy”, may give the Thais with much greater “freedom of speech and expression” on this count, a shock of their lives (e.g. it’s a BIG no no to call the German national football team “Nazis” or to nickname your friends “Fatty”, “Tootsie” or “Darkie”!!!)…
Facebook 
Twitter 
Soundcloud 
Youtube 
Rss
On lèse majesté
So everyone that denounces this lèse majesté as being repression, of not only the Thai people ,but foreingers also, will be put on a list of “not welcome in Thailand, charge them if they land”. We should focus on making that list as big as possible by spreading the word pertaining to Thai repression and using Stephan as their example of how they operate.
A divine king has no need for enforcing the public’s perception of him, a truly divine king wins over public perception by his deeds not by legislation.
i applaud the adding of my name to your list Stephen, as i applaud any name on that list, that rebukes the divinity of your repressive regime that rules Thailand. I will applaud the day Thailand becomes a truly free country where any Thai can express their opinion without fear of persecution.
On lèse majesté
Stephan’s repetitive, boring, unoriginal & abusive comments are dragging this discussion down. Does the webmaster allow them as “high quality”?
How can he call someone an “anonymous coward,” when he doesn’t identify himself? Many people on this blog use pseudonyms, for very good reasons: we live in a repressive society full of cretinous, obsessive bigots like Stephan, who would harm us if we were as open as we could be in a democracy.
Lese majeste in Khon Kaen?
Also see Prof. Borwornsak on “The Dynamics of Thai Politics” A very interesting view of the establishments perception and rationalisation of the situation and how it came about.
I think part of the problem is the current polarisation of opposed perceptions and as usual vested interests stirring it up.
http://www.kpi2.org/kpith/index2.php?option=com_content&do_pdf=1&id=95
Interestingly in the English Civil War (or revolution if you will) the rallying cries for the Royalists were “God & the King” Whilst for the Parliamentarians it was “The King & Parliament”
plus ├зa change, plus c’est la m├кme chose!
Suwicha Thakor and lese majeste
Found some info on Salon.com:
“Suwicha Thakho, 34, a former oil worker, was detained in January and admitted to altering the photos of revered King Bhumibol Adulyadej and his family, the Bangkok Criminal Court said. It did not say how the photos were changed or where they appeared, although local news reports said some appeared on YouTube.”
So it was pics of 9, not 10 or 10’s +1.
Suwicha Thakor and lese majeste
I agree with polo — protecting succession is probably top motive.
Anyone know what picture was actually posted? Was it of the king or of, say, the wife of the Crown Prince? If it were the latter it would substantiate the point.
How many years in prison for this?
Eat it and you die immediately!
On lèse majesté
Judging by Stephan’s curiously rambling remarks, I think New Mandala has welcomed its first royalist ganja smoker.
Hey man, chill!
Lese majeste in Khon Kaen?
Prof. Borwornsak on lese majest
http://www.bangkokpost.com/opinion/opinion/14660/the-law-of-inviolability-in-thailand
On lèse majesté
You are showing your true colours Stephen and the true colours of the repressive and vile nature of lèse majesté. If only the Thai people had the right of free speech we would know their opinion, but that’s just not the way your divine king operates is it?
Threats against foreigners whom know the truth of your king and his repressive nature, will not stop the world from knowing how he operates.
Your threats and abuse i find most amusing. It seems you think we should revere your king under threat of lèse majesté were we to put foot in Thailand. So it is true your king rules by fear not from a point of earned respect.
Whats the bet your real name isn’t Stephen either???
The Stilwell Road
Hie,
I am Namrata Goswami, conducting research in La Trobe on Conflict Issues in North East India till August 02, 2009.
It was interesting to see your website especially on the Stillwell Road since I have also travelled some of the areas like Ledo/ Margherita that you have mentioned.
Namrata
The King Never Smiles?
“Idiots in my book are those who thinks others point of view are bad and their ideas are the best.”
By your own definition, then, you are…?
Leaving name-calling out of it, I am not quite sure why apologists globally seem to think that because someone is in control of abuse that makes the abuse justified and untouchable. The idea that ‘abuse’ per se is a relative term and it depends on who you talk with is sheer bluster to avoid the reality that mankind needs a shakeup and some reform. You can talk all you want about geographical, ethnic, cultural and political divisions and reigning authorities, but when anyone on the face of this planet gets 20 years for writing and posting online, you have an unjust situation and certainly one with human rights violations in it.
Don’t call the “When in Rome” quote up to explain non-interference. We all know just what negative, as well as positive, contributions the Romans brought, and some of it could have been avoided with protection of the individual. You neglect the UN Charter on Human Rights, apparently, and seem, if I understand you correctly, that not complying with its provisions is fine when you are in charge of government. Or am I misreading something?
I am from Western New York, by the way.
Movies and memories
What a wonderful rememberance of a bygone era my son has embarked on. To the baby boomer generation of America, nostalgia is a wonderful way to look back to a simpler time and I hope that the people of Southeast Asia will enjoy this as well.
Suwicha Thakor and lese majeste
It would be great and inspiring to all if the King acts benevolently in regard to those accused of lese majeste. It would certainly be in keeping with the rule of compassion, one of the ten virtues that should be practiced by a ruler. Needless to say, his popularity would increase tremendously.
Lese majeste in Khon Kaen?
I don’t have a problem with Lese Majeste. People may think it is a way for the elite to maintain control, I think that may have some truth, but, I also think the values that lese majeste ‘asks’ of its people outweigh the negatives.
In the UK, there is little respect anymore for authority, yes, people have more personal freedom, but, the streets are dangerous! Thailand is a far more peaceable society overall, because the population are have a better attitude to an authority they adore (the King, not the politicians).
This would be a problem if respect was ‘demanded’ in a tyrannical regime, ‘ like Zimbabwe for instance, but the King of Thailand is a model King, one that is constantly trying to improve and better society, and one that deserves the love given to him by Thai people. If people have a problem showing respect to such a figure, I think they are probably the ones that need to be weeded out, including foreigners.
If something isn’t broken, I don’t want to try and fix it. If you do, whose to say you won’t end up in a far worse situation than you have? Do you really want the politicians to hold all the cards? Respect the Thai Royal family and what the Thai’s want, that’s what I say.
Lese majeste in Khon Kaen?
FWIW, I saw this on 2Bangkok.com which also has some links to The Manager site.
http://www.angkor.com/2bangkok/2bangkok/forum/showpost.php?p=24886&postcount=134
Suwicha Thakor and lese majeste
I agree with your sentiment, that the law is absurd and archaic. But I think your analysis — along with the hopes of the academic petitioners — is wrong-footed. For what reason should the king “push for reform of a law that makes his rule seem fragile and even a little vindictive” ? There’s no reason he should do so.
In fact it only appears that way to foreigners and to a very small though active fragment of Thai society. The king’s audience is Thais, not foreigners, and they mostly believe in him, in his mythology. For most of them the LM law is a positive, supportive part of that relationship, in the same way that Catholics, Jews, Muslims, whatever their own private doubts, do not want to hear outsiders disparage their religious leaders and dogmatic contradictions.
My guess is that the king and close aides, and maybe the whole palace institution, are uncomfortableand dismayed with the abuse of the LM law by politicians — the king never liked politicians anyway.
But they have one bottom line: survival of the institution. And most Thais probably cannot imagine Thailand without the monarchy. So those two things come together in accepting the need to maintain the LM law as is.
Your analysis — that “the palace takes a dim view of constitutional or legal developments that dilute its power”; that “The goal … is to remain unchallenged by dissenters, by populists … democratic politics” that protecting the LM law reflects “the priorities and prejudices of the elite as they go about the business of maintaining control” — this analysis looks too far, makes too much judgement on what the palace collectively, and the king and core royals, are thinking.
They are not thinking about constitution or power dilution or elite class privilege. They are simply thinking: “King Bhumibol is immune to criticism but his son is not. If we allow any room for criticism the son’s succession might be challenged. We do not have a viable alternative. So we must not allow any criticism to undermine the succession. So we cannot loosen the LM law, and in fact we have to get things under control after Thaksin, Handley’s TKNS, the Thai Studies Conference (with critical papers on royal wealth and the royal projects); and things like Fah Diaokan. So we have to set examples: first the drunk farang in Chiangmai, then Harry N. and also poor Suwicha.” All smalltimers, none willing to put on a media-focused show trial like Giles’ or Sulak’s would be.
If those examples have their desired effect — and let’s watch how academics, journalists and internet posters proceed over the next year — then the palace will have otherwise no problem with Aphisit’s whatever efforts at building democracy or even cutting elite power if he has it in him.
There’s just this bottom line of succession and the successor and a determination to have nothing interfere. They do not have a game plan beyond that, and that’s why I think you are expounding too much too deeply on the use of the LM law. The palace collectively may have thought about all those other things, but it comes down to the simple formula of sustaining the throne to the next generation.
The King Never Smiles?
My point is that if everything in the book is true then does that make the King of Thailand bad for Thais.
Ralph and Frank : Where are you from? And what make your system the BEST? I would like to know. Maybe Thailand could convert to your system.
Idiots in my book are those who thinks others point of view are bad and their ideas are the best.
The fate of Suwicha Thakhor
There’s an old saying that goes like this “When in Rome, do as the Romans do.” In other words respect the customs and laws of the country you are visiting/living in.
Regardless of what is ‘accepted’ as the norms, outside of Thailand, when it comes to freedom of expression, within the Royal Kingdom of Thailand it is an offence to show disrespect to the royal family.
The same could be said of North Korea, Myanmar, Cuba, Libya,
Egypt, to name only a few countries.
Let this be a warning to whomever, that before you decide to travel abroad, you had better do your homework and know the laws of the nation(s), that you intend to travel to.
There are NO EXCUSES accepted in such violations .
Kavi on Suwicha’s “quagmire”
Susie: I don’t what effect, if any, Sanya’s visit to the scene had, but the lese majeste law was promulgated during Rama V’s reign.
The fate of Suwicha Thakhor
That is a sharp observation LSS#18!
However, I don’t think we’ll see cooperation to fight the “Axis of Blasphemy” and free speech and expression will come down to power relations between nation-states. As I have mentioned before in another comment, it is much easier for Western academics to publicly pick on Thailand’s LM Laws than China’s human rights record (especially when many institutions rely on Chinese international students to operate – or in the midst of the GFC the West may be in need of China’s stash of dollars to lubricate the world economy)…
And we haven’t begin to address how the increasingly rigid, and possibly conflicting, notion of “political correctness” (PC) in the “Axis of Blasphemy”, may give the Thais with much greater “freedom of speech and expression” on this count, a shock of their lives (e.g. it’s a BIG no no to call the German national football team “Nazis” or to nickname your friends “Fatty”, “Tootsie” or “Darkie”!!!)…