Sorry that my English is so poor…and my vote is for Khun Abhisit…
I just couldn’t understand this matter:
What makes so many people think that DEMOCRACY is the answer to my country???
Having said that I, PERSONALLY, have no problem with “DEMOCRACY” or even “COMMUNISM”. I just couldn’t understand it, really.
What makes so many people believe that DEMOCRACY is the key and suitable for any country in this world in the same way???
Could someone explain it to me, please???
To be honest, I didn’t vote Khun Abhisit just because the fact that he’s graduated from Oxford University. He got my vote because he appears to be the PM I’m waiting for for so long. So, I did exercise my rights, didn’t I?
From my understanding about DEMOCRACY and Thai Constitution, I don’t see anything wrong about how he’s become Thai PM. Still, I don’t understand how so many people believe that he’s come into the power with the support of the military and bla bla bla….I know to say something like that makes me look really naive and stupid. But as a big fan of CSI, isn’t it true and correct that before we can accuse someone of doing something, we should have solid evidence first. So, for me, INNOCENCE UNTIL PROVEN GUILTY. And, it would be really greatful if someone here could provide me with hard evidence agains that claim.
Thanks, Srithanonchai (Mrs, I see), for this link #26. It’s an extremely well-written and beautifully-reasoned document, & wouldn’t it be wonderful if we could believe that argument in the Thai legal system (not to mention the parliament) could be as informed, lucid & freely expressed.
Interestingly, Kh. Borwornsak states that it all hangs on intent, i.e. if it can be shown that the accused had the *intent* to injure the person & position of whoever is alleged to have been the Royal victim, then the allegation can be deemed proven, & vice-versa.
That doesn’t appear to have been a consideration in the case of Harry N . Of course Harry pleaded guilty, so we can’t really criticize the judges (& we couldn’t in any case, because in Thailand it is illegal to do so), but surely intent would have been taken into account in the lengthy police investigation prior to the trial, & it appears glaringly obvious that he had no intent to injure anyone. In fact, it seems clear that he took steps to ensure that he wouldn’t.
As for the young man who is now languishing in prison for refusing to stand for the anthem, I would be intrigued to know how intent came into his case. But I never will, because no transcripts are made in any trial in Thailand, merely judges’ summaries, and in cases of Lese Majeste nothing is made public anyway.
Nevertheless, in an area where there has been a great deal of misinformation, Kh. Borwornsak has provided a very useful overview of the issue, both in Thailand & internationally.
David Brown #77
“we seem to be on the wrong foot somehow… my comments about immigration were reported by Thai people and their experiences in obtaining and amending their passports
I realise that it is important subject for many non-Thais but I have only long arms length experience on the behaviour of Thai immigration and their handling of non-Thai entry and residence matters.”
You seem rather confused about what your observations or your informants’ observations pertain to. If the process for Thai citizens to obtain and amend passports was improved under Thaksin, that is a far cry from saying that the Immigration Bureau was made more efficient and corruption free under Thaksin. Apart from stamping Thais passports on exiting or entering the country, Immigration deals exclusively with foreigners. Thais get their passports from the Ministry of Foreign Affairs’ Passport Office which has been generally known to be efficient and corruption free for as long as I can remember, certainly since long before Thaksin went into politics. Immigration and other procedures for foreigners for the most part more difficult under Thaksin but, to be fair, the Saruyudh government was more than happy to pick up the xenophobia ball and run with it.
When I first came to Thailand back in the mid-1960s, the movies were not just movies. The theaters would have an after-movie talent show where people would get up and sing, like American Idol Early Version. Lots of talent back then, as well as lack of talent that the audience was not overly happy with. Some performers were booed off the stage with dispatch!
David Brown #77 “I realise that it is important subject for many non-Thais but I have only long arms length experience on the behaviour of Thai immigration and their handling of non-Thai entry and residence matters.”
Here are links to an article by Borwornsak Uwanno, secretary general of the King Prajadhipok Institute (KPI) on the lese majesty issue. He sees it as a “distinctive character of Thai democracy.” However, he wants abuse to be limted by giving the Attorny General the sole right to file complaints.
Peter said: “It’s going to be a long while for me to return to post comments to this website because it won’t worth my time here.”
Well, what exactly were you expecting?
People might have been a little more welcoming if you were actually presenting cogent arguments rather than insisting they were arrogant and picking on you when they questioned your unsupported assertions.
See you on the Manager web boards, I guess. Cheerio.
@ralf #5
so here we are again.
maybe ‘amnesia international’ should take up your case?
you tend to forget that it shows poor education
to make insulting accusations without proof or reason.
we have read (and you may not?)
“…since the accused has pleaded guilty…”
there is no need for any dealing behind closed doors.
you owe the readers one single country,
where the laws allow to ‘defame, insult or threaten’
the head of state & religion unhindered.
in the iraqi puppet state recently
a man was tortured & sentenced to three years in prison
just for throwing his two shoes in the puppetmasters direction.
@ralf #22
soso, you BELIEVE others should do a bit of reading!
can you IMAGINE, that we did that already?
on what information about us is your opinion based,
or should we say biased?
now that we know YOUR believes & imaginations,
where are your arguments?
and don’t forget please:
you need not share other peoples believes,
but you must respect them,
especially when you are a guest in other peoples country.
or do you need to learn respect first?
if one comes into your house & insults your mother,
he’d be chucked out on his ears faster than a lightning flash,
or would you sit down with him & discuss his insults,
while your little sisters hearts are bleeding?
why don’t you people start your holy crusades
to save other peoples souls in your own house first?
This line, about democracy being complicated, is getting really tiresome.
If you want something badly enough, you figure it out quite quickly: telephones, the printing press, television, sailboats, construction techniques using cement and banking systems…
Interesting that the rather shrill Dave of Hua Hin mentioned the fact that many villagers can’t read or write. My ex’s mother is in the same boat.
Now, whose fault is that? Thaksin, or the elite forces (which are above politics remember- snort) that have been controlling this country for the last 60 odd years?
I would like to nominate General Prem, President of the Privy Council, to the task of moderating the lese majeste law. It would be a great opportunity for him to do something productive for both the royalty and the common folks.
if thai people believe that their king is devine,
who are YOU to tell them that they are dead wrong?
you may think you are liberal, where in fact you are intolerant.
I dont claim to be liberal nor tolerant. in fact i am definitely not tolerant of fraud, deceit nor govts that deny the rights of their civilians the right of free opinion.
If the Thai people have been conned into believing their king is “devine” that is indeed deceitful, your king is nothing more than a sham dictator.
You can mince words all you like, at the end of the day Thai people are still in jail for having an opinion contrary to yours, for that you and the Thai people should be outraged.
I can not change Thailand , only the good people of Thailand can do that, however i can express an opinion contrary to the propaganda machine that runs Thailand, unlike the good people of Thailand that are imprisoned for displaying any form of dissent.
Based on your comment “Peter, you keep saying I could not believe what I said “being frank & impartial” would affect you this much, …”, would you count for all the readers here exactly how many time I’ve said it? There is no doubt at all that you & a few other Farangs posting comments have definite advantage in English proficiency over non-native speakers using English expressing point of views here. You guys are so good in all sorts of beautiful vocabularies including idioms & slangs which pose some problems for us non-native speakers. But 2 things I detected from your comment here: (1) You don’t know how to count; that’s why you used the phrase “KEEP SAYING”. (2) You just love to exaggerate based on the phrase “KEEP SAYING’ phrase!
Well, ladies & gentlemen: I’ve to say goodbye. It’s going to be a long while for me to return to post comments to this website because it won’t worth my time here. Sayonara. Laa Gon.
Peter: Since you are pouring out many times more words than I am, I have to laugh at you slagging off people you imagine have endless time to blog. I also have other things to do, including supporting a family.
I was simply asking you to support your assertion about Matichon. You have not done so, or even bothered to answer a simple question to help us see what you consider good journalism.
I will answer yours. It is not an either/or situation.
Newspapers should publish detailed and balanced stories. They should not publish stories that are not factual (if by that you mean inaccurate or biased reporting. Opinion is fine, if it is clearly opinion.)
The way things stand, it would be extremely difficult for Thailand to be competitive in the international community, for the royal family and its privy council will go on acting as the regressive influence in any course of attempts by Thailand to become a truly free and democratic society.
I used the word “lizard” because this is the word that has been used to describe Thaksin by PAD speakers… just as an example of the language used by people inspired by Sondhi Lim
and, briefly, I did not say that the military, etc are “just as corrupted” as Thaksin
I believe they are much more corrupted than Thaksin. Entrenched, traditional corruption. Being traditional does not make it right!
I am not claiming two wrongs make a right, I am claiming the wrongs must be addressed for Thailand to achieve equity of opportunity for all its people.
I wonder what were the reasons for US Ambassador to visit Gen Prem?
THE NATION
April 3, 2009 : Last updated 02:03 pm
US envoy visits Gen Prem
US Ambassador to Thailand Eric G John met Privy Council President Prem Tinsulanonda at his residence Thursday.
It is unclear about objectives of the John’s visit.
Also visiting Prem were Suankulab alumni who said they wished to give moral support to Prem. However they could not meet him due to Prem’s meeting with John.
Vice Admiral Pajun Tamprateep, a head of the Office of the Statesman Foundation, recieved a bouquet from the group on behalf of Prem. Pajunsaid that Prem thanked everyone for coming.
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Full text of Abhisit speech in Oxford
Sorry that my English is so poor…and my vote is for Khun Abhisit…
I just couldn’t understand this matter:
What makes so many people think that DEMOCRACY is the answer to my country???
Having said that I, PERSONALLY, have no problem with “DEMOCRACY” or even “COMMUNISM”. I just couldn’t understand it, really.
What makes so many people believe that DEMOCRACY is the key and suitable for any country in this world in the same way???
Could someone explain it to me, please???
To be honest, I didn’t vote Khun Abhisit just because the fact that he’s graduated from Oxford University. He got my vote because he appears to be the PM I’m waiting for for so long. So, I did exercise my rights, didn’t I?
From my understanding about DEMOCRACY and Thai Constitution, I don’t see anything wrong about how he’s become Thai PM. Still, I don’t understand how so many people believe that he’s come into the power with the support of the military and bla bla bla….I know to say something like that makes me look really naive and stupid. But as a big fan of CSI, isn’t it true and correct that before we can accuse someone of doing something, we should have solid evidence first. So, for me, INNOCENCE UNTIL PROVEN GUILTY. And, it would be really greatful if someone here could provide me with hard evidence agains that claim.
Thanks in advance.
On lèse majesté
Thanks, Srithanonchai (Mrs, I see), for this link #26. It’s an extremely well-written and beautifully-reasoned document, & wouldn’t it be wonderful if we could believe that argument in the Thai legal system (not to mention the parliament) could be as informed, lucid & freely expressed.
Interestingly, Kh. Borwornsak states that it all hangs on intent, i.e. if it can be shown that the accused had the *intent* to injure the person & position of whoever is alleged to have been the Royal victim, then the allegation can be deemed proven, & vice-versa.
That doesn’t appear to have been a consideration in the case of Harry N . Of course Harry pleaded guilty, so we can’t really criticize the judges (& we couldn’t in any case, because in Thailand it is illegal to do so), but surely intent would have been taken into account in the lengthy police investigation prior to the trial, & it appears glaringly obvious that he had no intent to injure anyone. In fact, it seems clear that he took steps to ensure that he wouldn’t.
As for the young man who is now languishing in prison for refusing to stand for the anthem, I would be intrigued to know how intent came into his case. But I never will, because no transcripts are made in any trial in Thailand, merely judges’ summaries, and in cases of Lese Majeste nothing is made public anyway.
Nevertheless, in an area where there has been a great deal of misinformation, Kh. Borwornsak has provided a very useful overview of the issue, both in Thailand & internationally.
901, royal politics and Thaksin Shinawatra
David Brown #77
“we seem to be on the wrong foot somehow… my comments about immigration were reported by Thai people and their experiences in obtaining and amending their passports
I realise that it is important subject for many non-Thais but I have only long arms length experience on the behaviour of Thai immigration and their handling of non-Thai entry and residence matters.”
You seem rather confused about what your observations or your informants’ observations pertain to. If the process for Thai citizens to obtain and amend passports was improved under Thaksin, that is a far cry from saying that the Immigration Bureau was made more efficient and corruption free under Thaksin. Apart from stamping Thais passports on exiting or entering the country, Immigration deals exclusively with foreigners. Thais get their passports from the Ministry of Foreign Affairs’ Passport Office which has been generally known to be efficient and corruption free for as long as I can remember, certainly since long before Thaksin went into politics. Immigration and other procedures for foreigners for the most part more difficult under Thaksin but, to be fair, the Saruyudh government was more than happy to pick up the xenophobia ball and run with it.
Movies and memories
When I first came to Thailand back in the mid-1960s, the movies were not just movies. The theaters would have an after-movie talent show where people would get up and sing, like American Idol Early Version. Lots of talent back then, as well as lack of talent that the audience was not overly happy with. Some performers were booed off the stage with dispatch!
901, royal politics and Thaksin Shinawatra
David Brown #77 “I realise that it is important subject for many non-Thais but I have only long arms length experience on the behaviour of Thai immigration and their handling of non-Thai entry and residence matters.”
David Brown, are you Thai?
On lèse majesté
Here are links to an article by Borwornsak Uwanno, secretary general of the King Prajadhipok Institute (KPI) on the lese majesty issue. He sees it as a “distinctive character of Thai democracy.” However, he wants abuse to be limted by giving the Attorny General the sole right to file complaints.
http://www.kpi2.org/kpith/downloads/Article_Dr.Borwornsak_02-04-09.pdf (English version)
http://www.kpi2.org/kpith/downloads/Article-th_Dr.Borwornsak_02-04-09.pdf (Thai version)
On lèse majesté
Man gets 10-year jail term for lese majesty
The Criminal Court Friday sentenced a man to ten year imprisonment for posting a picture deemed insulting the monarchy on a website.
Initially, Suwicha Thakho was sentenced to be jailed for 20 years but the court commuted the jail term by half after he pleaded guilty.
He was charged with violating Article 112 of the Criminal Code and violating the computer crime act.
The man wept upon learning of his sentence.
The Nation April 3 2009
A friendly reception
Hi Franky Boy!
Srithanonchai (Mrs.)
901, royal politics and Thaksin Shinawatra
Peter said: “It’s going to be a long while for me to return to post comments to this website because it won’t worth my time here.”
Well, what exactly were you expecting?
People might have been a little more welcoming if you were actually presenting cogent arguments rather than insisting they were arrogant and picking on you when they questioned your unsupported assertions.
See you on the Manager web boards, I guess. Cheerio.
The fate of Suwicha Thakhor
@ralf #5
so here we are again.
maybe ‘amnesia international’ should take up your case?
you tend to forget that it shows poor education
to make insulting accusations without proof or reason.
we have read (and you may not?)
“…since the accused has pleaded guilty…”
there is no need for any dealing behind closed doors.
you owe the readers one single country,
where the laws allow to ‘defame, insult or threaten’
the head of state & religion unhindered.
in the iraqi puppet state recently
a man was tortured & sentenced to three years in prison
just for throwing his two shoes in the puppetmasters direction.
On lèse majesté
@ralf #22
soso, you BELIEVE others should do a bit of reading!
can you IMAGINE, that we did that already?
on what information about us is your opinion based,
or should we say biased?
now that we know YOUR believes & imaginations,
where are your arguments?
and don’t forget please:
you need not share other peoples believes,
but you must respect them,
especially when you are a guest in other peoples country.
or do you need to learn respect first?
if one comes into your house & insults your mother,
he’d be chucked out on his ears faster than a lightning flash,
or would you sit down with him & discuss his insults,
while your little sisters hearts are bleeding?
why don’t you people start your holy crusades
to save other peoples souls in your own house first?
Movies and memories
Wow! Thank you for share this. It brings back my memories of going to the cinemas.
Abhisit’s talk in Oxford: From the inside
This line, about democracy being complicated, is getting really tiresome.
If you want something badly enough, you figure it out quite quickly: telephones, the printing press, television, sailboats, construction techniques using cement and banking systems…
Interesting that the rather shrill Dave of Hua Hin mentioned the fact that many villagers can’t read or write. My ex’s mother is in the same boat.
Now, whose fault is that? Thaksin, or the elite forces (which are above politics remember- snort) that have been controlling this country for the last 60 odd years?
On lèse majesté
I would like to nominate General Prem, President of the Privy Council, to the task of moderating the lese majeste law. It would be a great opportunity for him to do something productive for both the royalty and the common folks.
On lèse majesté
if thai people believe that their king is devine,
who are YOU to tell them that they are dead wrong?
you may think you are liberal, where in fact you are intolerant.
I dont claim to be liberal nor tolerant. in fact i am definitely not tolerant of fraud, deceit nor govts that deny the rights of their civilians the right of free opinion.
If the Thai people have been conned into believing their king is “devine” that is indeed deceitful, your king is nothing more than a sham dictator.
You can mince words all you like, at the end of the day Thai people are still in jail for having an opinion contrary to yours, for that you and the Thai people should be outraged.
I can not change Thailand , only the good people of Thailand can do that, however i can express an opinion contrary to the propaganda machine that runs Thailand, unlike the good people of Thailand that are imprisoned for displaying any form of dissent.
901, royal politics and Thaksin Shinawatra
Ralph Kramden #83
Based on your comment “Peter, you keep saying I could not believe what I said “being frank & impartial” would affect you this much, …”, would you count for all the readers here exactly how many time I’ve said it? There is no doubt at all that you & a few other Farangs posting comments have definite advantage in English proficiency over non-native speakers using English expressing point of views here. You guys are so good in all sorts of beautiful vocabularies including idioms & slangs which pose some problems for us non-native speakers. But 2 things I detected from your comment here: (1) You don’t know how to count; that’s why you used the phrase “KEEP SAYING”. (2) You just love to exaggerate based on the phrase “KEEP SAYING’ phrase!
Well, ladies & gentlemen: I’ve to say goodbye. It’s going to be a long while for me to return to post comments to this website because it won’t worth my time here. Sayonara. Laa Gon.
901, royal politics and Thaksin Shinawatra
Peter: Since you are pouring out many times more words than I am, I have to laugh at you slagging off people you imagine have endless time to blog. I also have other things to do, including supporting a family.
I was simply asking you to support your assertion about Matichon. You have not done so, or even bothered to answer a simple question to help us see what you consider good journalism.
I will answer yours. It is not an either/or situation.
Newspapers should publish detailed and balanced stories. They should not publish stories that are not factual (if by that you mean inaccurate or biased reporting. Opinion is fine, if it is clearly opinion.)
That’s Journalism 101.
Thailand compared with the neighbours
The way things stand, it would be extremely difficult for Thailand to be competitive in the international community, for the royal family and its privy council will go on acting as the regressive influence in any course of attempts by Thailand to become a truly free and democratic society.
901, royal politics and Thaksin Shinawatra
hi Peter #81
I used the word “lizard” because this is the word that has been used to describe Thaksin by PAD speakers… just as an example of the language used by people inspired by Sondhi Lim
and, briefly, I did not say that the military, etc are “just as corrupted” as Thaksin
I believe they are much more corrupted than Thaksin. Entrenched, traditional corruption. Being traditional does not make it right!
I am not claiming two wrongs make a right, I am claiming the wrongs must be addressed for Thailand to achieve equity of opportunity for all its people.
901, royal politics and Thaksin Shinawatra
I wonder what were the reasons for US Ambassador to visit Gen Prem?
THE NATION
April 3, 2009 : Last updated 02:03 pm
US envoy visits Gen Prem
US Ambassador to Thailand Eric G John met Privy Council President Prem Tinsulanonda at his residence Thursday.
It is unclear about objectives of the John’s visit.
Also visiting Prem were Suankulab alumni who said they wished to give moral support to Prem. However they could not meet him due to Prem’s meeting with John.
Vice Admiral Pajun Tamprateep, a head of the Office of the Statesman Foundation, recieved a bouquet from the group on behalf of Prem. Pajunsaid that Prem thanked everyone for coming.