AjarnSomsak #27 & #28, I will argue that my reasoning – that you branded “crappy” and “pretentious” – is simply based on my own deep skepticism of PMThaksin’s democratic credentials and my own deep suspicions that all his rabble-rousings are merely ‘business transactions/investments’, in the style of the ultimate capitalist mafia and the main objectives here are to get all his court cases dismissed and all his money back. I don’t think for a minute that the Pheu Thai censure debate and the Reds street protests are pure coincidence with his asset seizure case going to court (yes, the Big One). In fact I see parallels with the huge crowd outside the courts in his first assets concealment case – the now infamous “honest mistake”. ‘Hear the crowd/voters, they say I’m innocent’ PMThaksin is implying.
On the other hand, I will not dispute that many Reds are there because they love PMThaksin and his policies. And they rightly equate PMThaksin with a democracy that they can directly benefit from. That is surely PMThaksin’s bright side and Thai electoral democracy is already practiced differently as can be seen in the Democrats’ few months reign so far – but it is his darkest sides and total refusal to be held accountable that is extremely detrimental to Thai democracy’s progress.
I am also Thai, and like you AjarnSomsak I have friends and relatives in both the Red and Yellow camp. They fight and get emotional when politics is raised and social gatherings are not what they used to be. Surely addressing both the Red’s call for less military influence in politics (which I have argued in another topic, PMThaksin played a significant role in drawing them back) and the Yellow’s call for a much less corrupt (not on PMThaksin’s scale for starters) and more accountable democracy will certainly lead Thai politics to a better direction. But this will only be possible post-Thaksin self-interested politiking.
Dear Joseph Strachan: You’re not antagonizing me. I’m just suggesting you are ignorant. But points for coming back, I thought you would be one of those hit-and-run commenters.
You say “So why are they now doing the same thing themselves?” Well, perhaps I missed it, but I don’t believe the Red Shirts have broken into and tried to seize a television station, occupied Government House and stole all sorts of materials (including guns, Uzi’s, remember?) and immobilized Bangkok’s airports.
The Democrats in the PAD leadership? What was that you had to say about them? I’m listening.
When you say “We are in deep trouble in this country,” I agree, but I’m curious when you date this big trouble to. Can you clarify that for us?
It’s also puzzling that you seem to be against both street protests and “nonchalantly discussing these issues out of academic interest.”
I don’t quite understand the “nonchalantly” part when I see vigorous debate, but what exactly are you suggesting? Shut up and do what the government says?
Certainly you can understand why the Red Shirts might think that the same rules that applied to the PAD should apply to them. Do you support prosecuting the PAD for their illegal actions last year? Certainly a good way to teach respect for the law is to apply it equally.
What exactly are you suggesting is acceptable behavior?
having claimed that major infrastructure projects are “cesspits of corruption”
I notice that the Democrats, with no sign of complaint by the PAD, have had cabinet meetings to get the infrastructure projects moving “to save the country”
does anyone know which ministers are happily now at the “trough” planning for their happy and wealthy retirement, or
should we assume that the Democrats are corruption=free and because of the secrecy surrounding their military-controlled government noone will ever question where the money is going?
Chris Baker #20 : In his Time interview on 6 March, Thaksin said two things about the Sukumwit meeting.
First, that he would soon name names. He’s done that.
Second, that he has a recording of the meeting….
Actually, what Thaksin said was : ” there was a meeting in one house on Sukhumvit [Road in Bangkok] and one of the attendees revealed to me–and I have the tapes of what happened–that the meeting was about getting rid of me”
From the rally last night, it seems that “the tapes of what happened” turned out to be the same video of Sondhi L’s Virginia speech I mentioned #23 above. And the part that Sondhi L talked about the role of Surayut had already been shown at previous rally.
Thaksin’s supporters now put the video on YouTube using as title, the well-known Thai sarcasm : “sia ma” (not sure how to translate into English). The first part is the one Khun Oppai mentioned at #26, the second part is here http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8fqnB6TZpvc&feature=related
Last night one of the Red rally organizers, Natthawut Sai-kua, was about to show a new part of the video, but apparently technical difficulty intervened. Natthawut then went on to summerize the content (“it’s about the ‘cliam of the High-Up’ [р╕нр╣Йр╕▓р╕Зр╣Ар╕Ър╕╖р╣Йр╕нр╕Зр╕кр╕╣р╕З] [support] Sondhi made”) and told his audience to watch it on YouTube instead (the “sia ma” above).
What’s interesting about the part that Natthawut wanted to show is that it concerns Sondhi’s recounting of the Queen’s sister (Lady Bussaba) summonded Sondhi [to the palace ?] to receive “a gift from the Royal Court” (widely understood to be the Blue Scarf”) from Bussaba. Here’s what Sondhi said in the clip:
As he was about to show the clip, Natthawut shouted: “I don’t believe any of what Sondhi said in this clip that I’m going to play, but I want you all to know what Sondhi said.”
Had it been shown, it would be the first time the Red rally, via the showing of the clip, openly mentioned the Queen’s sister’s (and presumeably [?] the Queen herself [?]) support of the PAD.
thanks for reminding us that things are serious and your (tearful?) concern for the Thai people
what do you think of Thaksins advice on how to run the country compared to the Democrats efforts?
specifically I wonder how the miltary billion on top of their bloated budgets are improving the situation in the country? do you think a submarine and additional jets will help ordinary Thais or just keep them docile in their villages?
do you think that the delays caused by the hysterical PAD against implementing infrastructure projects and actually crashing the electronic exports through the airports at a critical time last year have assisted Thailand weather and climb out of the financial situation?
Yes, yes…with all these natives running amok and screaming about “political enfranchisement” and “social/ethnic equality” , it is bloody difficult to do any business nowadays isn’t? Hopefully, he will soon restore some damn order to this godforsaken place. Yes, he may be a son-of-a-bitch, but he’s our son-of-a-bitch, right?
Anyway, Joseph, I do hope you can attend the cotillion that my wife is organizing at the Colonial Club next month. It will be a very flash time, what?
Ralph / Amberwaves, I apologize if what I have said antagonizes you. Yes, we wished for some peace while the PAD was similarly engaged in their own wrongdoings. But did I not hear Thaksin’s nodders crying out against the PAD? So why are they now doing the same thing themselves?
In case you good people don’t realize, we are in deep trouble in this country, while all you good folks are nonchalantly discussing these issues out of academic interest, people here are losing their homes, jobs, health, and in some cases, their lives.
Now we have some stability and some accountability, but you just can’t wait to bring back the chaos again, can you?
Les Majeste laws do not exist in most of the world, so many Foreign tourists are unfamiliar with the concept and people do make mistakes.
As a Foreign resident, what often startles me is how a high placed Thai person, like a former Prime Minister, can openly commit Les Majeste and not be challenged or punished, but a tourist, who doesn’t know about the law, is arrested and severely punished…
Mr. Shin (awat) is a prime example. He openly overrode the King’s needs, remained PM, and even now has a large following..
Another example are the crimes related to illegal visas. Most foreigners cannot read Thai and do not know what a proper Visa looks like, so are easily misled and cheated by visa services and corrupt immigration officials.
However, who is arrested for the invalid stamp, or the perceived Les Majeste – the innocent Foreigner who was completely unaware that anything was wrong…
[Below are the key parts from Thaksin’s video speech last night (27/3/09). These extracts are the parts where he talked about the past, and said something which added to the information from the speech on the previous night (posted above). In between these extracts, he spoke several times saying privy councilors should not be involved in politics because it makes people misunderstand that the King is behind them. In the middle, he gave a rabble-rousing address, calling on the red shirts to help restore democracy. Towards the end he gave a proposal: reverse back to the point prior to the April 2006 election; bring back the 1997 constitution with amendments to correct the problems over appointment to independent bodies; hold a general election; he will not be involved.]
——————————————————————————————
That day I had a meeting with government officials at Santi Maitri house. I told all of them to work to the full, because I knew officials had begun to run in “neutral gear”, had begun to have interference by the person with extra-constitutional charismatic power. I had to push them to work. A person with extra-constitutional charismatic power, what does it mean? It means the constitution does not lay down any structure, any power in administration, but because he has charismatic power (barami) he can covertly give orders. Officials are deferential and agree to follow, agree to go against the orders of their superior.
The phrase person with extra-constitutional charismatic power created a big fuss. Sondhi [Lim] claimed I meant the King. I was not so bold. I’m loyal. I was not so bold as to say that. In truth, the person with extra-constitutional charismatic power is General Prem Tinsulanond [Big cheer]. I didn’t dare say it then. And one of General Prem’s people phoned to ask me to say clearly that it was not General Prem. But it was, so I wouldn’t. [Big cheer]
Because General Prem was involved in politics, and the military was involved, we had the coup, the constitution of 2007, and the country has gone backwards by at least 15 years.
Panlop said it was not General Surayud that called him to the meeting but the owner of the house, Pi Malakul…. General Surayud said that three privy councilors went to have audience with the king, General Surayud, General Prem, and a third I won’t name because I’m not sure
At the coup, General Prem took Nai Bung and the others to audience. Why? If a coup group wants to go to audience, they can go, why should a privy councilor go too? It’s as if he was the head of the coup group.
That Pa descends to play politics, to order this and that, in his role as a person with extra-constitutional charismatic power, is something that destroys the procedures of the country, gives rise to a system of double-standards, gives rise to social injustice
Pa has no children but children are growing up. They must have a future, must live in a country with a proper system, a democracy that commands international acceptance, and social justice, not a system in which Pa can press this button and that button.
When I was premier, I thought there was something funny with one deputy PM. Later I learnt that he invited a business friend of mine to be a minister. It turns out, General Surayud intended to make him [i.e., the deputy pm] prime minister under Article 7. This was wrong. Inviting a businessman to be a minister. I was shocked. My own deputy pm, why should he act so funny.
The intervention, the meeting at Khun Pi’s house in Sukumwit gave rise to many events. There were attempts on my life–people dare not talk about it because of criminal proceedings. There were two attempts by sniper fire but I was lucky. The first time, I changed my route, returning from Chiang Rai to Chiang Mai, not via Lampang, and they had set the gunman at Lampang. The second time in Sanam Luang, they arranged to place the gunman in the Political Science Building at Thammasat. They thought I would speak at 8 p.m. but as it happens I spoke earlier and so the gunman was not ready when I left the building. And the third time was the car bomb, two times at the airport, and the third near my house, at the Sangyi intersection of Charan[sanitwong] road. In the end they caught the culprits with firm evidence. As far as I enquired, the person who was behind all three times and who followed the matter closely, often, two to three times, is called Nai Bung, Nai Bung.
Nice of you to mention the military – so upright and honest and incorruptible. Wonder why the “urban middleclasses mass anger and protests” never apply to them.
I never miss the point – simply insist that if you accuse someone, please apply some honesty – harping on the “tax” issue is misleading and dis-honest. Then “of course” honesty is not a pre-requisite to PAD membership.
I have been very impressed with the number of Thais in the streets in Bangkok the past few days. The house organs in the media have been saying 20 or 30 thousand, but it looks many more than that and people on the scene corroborate that there are many, many people out in opposition to the PAD/Democrat combine.
The reds have dwarfed anything the PAD was ever able to do, and at this time it is actually the government that is paying for participation with their 2000B checks. I have read that some of the reds are turning over their checks to the red leadership. I hope not too many. They surely need the cash more than the “leadership” does.
And the reds have been very much more “civilized” in their behavior than the PAD ever was. The Bangkok Post had an article in which they calmly detailed four concrete proposals by Thaksin himself that made a lot of sense to me, calling for elections and pledging that he would not run, for instance. He pointed out too that it was the PAD/Democrat side whose actions had “politicized” the monarchy more than any others.
Regardless the leadership I was very gratified to see so many Thais taking to the streets in support of democracy. I hope that people begin to organize among themselves and to develop the real, grass roots leadership they require to regain and retain the reins of government in this wonderful country of Thailand.
The Bangkok Post had a very interesting article on Thaksin’s speech. If Thaksin said what they say he said then this is a very constructive speech. He made four points, according to the Bangkok Post :
1. The country must revert back to the April 2, 2006, general election.
2. Thaksin said that if a general election was called now, he would not enter the race.
3. [Thaksin] added the Democrat-led government was not legitimate and must quit.
4. After a new government was formed, the constitution must be rewritten, using the abrogated 1997 charter as a model.
These seem to me to be very reasonable suggestions. Coupled with the Post’s reporting of Thaksin’s very level-headed assessment of the whole lèse–majesté mess I think this was a very constructive speech on Thaksin’s part and I wrote to them congratulating the Bangkok Post for publishing it in such a disinterested manner.
In fact their newly acquired disinterest attests to the inherent reasonableness of this proposal, to its transparent appeal to the majority of Thai people (there seem to be hundreds rather than tens of thousands of Thais in the streets in Bangkok), and to the imminent return of a measure of democracy to the wonderful country of Thailand.
Whilst Joseph Strachan would have been better to open his comments less generally, than to say he speaks for the “vast majority”of expats(presumably those are the people he refers to as “us”), I think many of the other commentors on this thread should also be careful, that they too, are not appointing themselves as “spokespersons” for the Thai people – without first gaining acceptance of such a position…from the Thai people, themselves.
Still, I do admit, to being one of his “us” and agree with much of what he said.
Further, I would like to add to his thoughts, with the following:
There seems to be a collective amnesia about what Thaksin did, to get himself deposed in the first place.
Perhaps it would be a good idea, if he did “win back” his position at the “top of the Thai tree”(well at least along side the top- where he seemed to believe he was at).
I am sure, that after a short period, this belief that he, and only he, is capable of bringing “true” democracy to the Thai people (having only experienced it in its “true form” whe he was in power) will surely be put to the test, with the same old, same old tricks as before.
It will not be too long before, once again, forums like this, will need to watch what they say about him. Nor would it be too long, before the threat of “force” and “depravation” of government funds would again be used against the medie, because they will not do his bidding.
For those who might comment on media freedoms, by claiming, “that is exactly what the current authorities are doing, re the LM laws”, I would say, as important as this matter is, it was regularly used 2001-6 to shut people up. It was pleasing to see Abihisit say yesterday, that the law must administered carefully. I hope it is,form here on in, but that is another issue and not part of my commentary here.
If you really want a champion to fight for real democracy in Thailand,
I doubt that man from “somehwere in Africa”, who is now using a storyline, which it seems, was developed by the writers of Thai soaps, to tell his tale of misery and woe and has a group of followers who need to show such simple symbolism, as the wearing of Red shirts, so a to so unimaginatively ape, the “yellow shirts”,is the answer.
But maybe that’s the sort of “democracy” many of the writers here feel is appropriate for Thailand.
I think the country is better than that.
For the record, quoting a MySpace page may not be the most accurate means of keeping track of people’s life stories….Heath was most definitely in Chiang Rai before and during Harry’s tenure at Mae Fah Luang. I can attest to this as well, as I was also teaching there.
Harry did indeed share his manuscript–with several teachers at MFLU. I also remember the blue cover with the butterfly on it when he published it himself. And Heath’s recollections are wholly consistent with my impressions of Harry. In fact, his pushing the limits attitude was par for the course of Harry’s behavior in general. It is unfortunate that he was made to be the whipping boy of an unevenly enforced, borderline abused law—but he was voluntarily living and working in Thailand, and should have been aware and respectful of Thai laws accordingly. He certainly had ample access to a reliable resource/barometer for appropriate conduct in his wonderfully talented and accomplished Thai partner, Tam.
The other side of the story deserves to be told–lashing Heath on the web does nothing to advance the truth of what happened specifically to Harry, or to contextualize the larger issues and political tensions facing Thailand during this tumultuous time.
“It’s so sad !” >> Quite true. However, I don’t refer to the reds but rather of the “self-inflicted ignorance” (Preuss) displayed in your comment. How can we hope to solve Thailand’s political crisis when many people simply refuse to take out their heads from the sand in which they have buried them in the assumption that, if they don’t see a phenomenon, it does not exist, hanging instead on to an ideological image of harmony that is “destroyed” by some supposedly paid hooligans. This position is also self-defeating, because it ignores the actual dynamics of political-opinion building etc. that have been going on in wide parts of Thailand’s regions. Thus, you hopes can never come true.
When he says “How can an opposition party take part in inciting civil unrest and still retain any respect from us? Why are they even permitted to do so?” he is actually trying to remind people about the Democrat Party MPs who were in the PAD leadership last year, right?
When the PAD employed armed thugs to safeguard their occupation of Government House and Bangkok’s two airports, right? I guess he and his “vast majority” were just wishing for some peace then, as well, yes?
Nice touch by the red shirts to taunt pictures of Angkana Radubpanyawut lying naked on the mortuary slab after being murdered by the police with an explosive tear gas grenade. Perhaps snuff porn is the latest desperate tactic for Thaksin to whip the mob into a frenzy. I hope that Ajarn Giles can get a video of that gruesome scene for part 3 of his Thai State Crimes series on Youtube.
I think Joseph Strachan # 29 accurately reflects the views of many farangs and Thais who are not tenured ivory tower academics at foreign universities but struggle to make a living in the real world Thailand.
“The delusional ex-PM, probably the most corrupt politician Thailand has ever had, has sworn to take the whole Nation down with him. even if it takes all of the tax-free cash he has stashed away in foreign bank accounts.” Thaksin has never explained how he got around Thailand’s money laundering regulations to get so much cash overseas. Squashing the SC Assets assets concealment case against him, involving fake Labuan based investment funds, was a top priority, involving getting rid of the entire DSI top brass when Samak became PM. Conveniently this also happened to be the only case that was not investigated by the AEC and so couldn’t be whitewashed through a constitutional amendment. It was bad luck for him that Temasek refused to play his dirty game with the block of Shin Corp shares he had secreted offshore in Ample Rich and forced him to sell it onshore on the big lot board.
I have nothing to add to what I already said regarding Phil Robertson’s dismissal of Ji Ungpakorn. My observation that someone on the other side of politics as defined by current divisions in Thailand is hardly likely to consider that that Ji has anything much to offer. I am sure that Ji would reject the kind of unionism sponsored by SILS and by the U.S. government and its agencies.
BTW, membership of the Johns Hopkins alumni hardly seems like a measure of anything about political sides. Isn’t Prem the president of it? That is unlikely to make him a buddy of Jakraphob.
It would be interesting to know more about the role of state unions and Somchai in PAD. Phil Robertson is probably better placed than most to comment.
I am now reading Gosh’s new book “Sea Of Poppies”. Quite interesting, but with too many non-English words and names the book is hard to follow and I’ve already lost the plot many times along the way!
In his book “Glass Palace”, the detail depictions of Burmese extreme violence against Indians living in Rangoon were really horrible, but it reflects the reality in Burma as I have also witnessed many scenes of horrible violence against Indians and Chinese in Rangoon. The worst was the Chinese Riots in the sixties when I was just a young boy.
Hundreds and hundreds of Chinese families were killed when the Ne-Win’s military government conveniently turned the Rice Riots due to a then very severe shortage of rice in Rangoon into the horribly violent Race Riots and the hapless Chinese became the scapegoats.
Many historians had conveniently blamed the high level of violence in Burma on the racial characters of us Burmese while blindly ignoring the dark influences from the endless succession of violent colonial wars, the Second World War, and the ongoing long civil war.
(Following is an excerpt from The Penguin History of the Second World War)
“The Burmese villages, partly because of the peculiarly rapid tendency of the Burmese to resort to violence, had always had a higher proportion of criminal types than was usual in the East.”
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901, royal politics and Thaksin Shinawatra
AjarnSomsak #27 & #28, I will argue that my reasoning – that you branded “crappy” and “pretentious” – is simply based on my own deep skepticism of PMThaksin’s democratic credentials and my own deep suspicions that all his rabble-rousings are merely ‘business transactions/investments’, in the style of the ultimate capitalist mafia and the main objectives here are to get all his court cases dismissed and all his money back. I don’t think for a minute that the Pheu Thai censure debate and the Reds street protests are pure coincidence with his asset seizure case going to court (yes, the Big One). In fact I see parallels with the huge crowd outside the courts in his first assets concealment case – the now infamous “honest mistake”. ‘Hear the crowd/voters, they say I’m innocent’ PMThaksin is implying.
On the other hand, I will not dispute that many Reds are there because they love PMThaksin and his policies. And they rightly equate PMThaksin with a democracy that they can directly benefit from. That is surely PMThaksin’s bright side and Thai electoral democracy is already practiced differently as can be seen in the Democrats’ few months reign so far – but it is his darkest sides and total refusal to be held accountable that is extremely detrimental to Thai democracy’s progress.
I am also Thai, and like you AjarnSomsak I have friends and relatives in both the Red and Yellow camp. They fight and get emotional when politics is raised and social gatherings are not what they used to be. Surely addressing both the Red’s call for less military influence in politics (which I have argued in another topic, PMThaksin played a significant role in drawing them back) and the Yellow’s call for a much less corrupt (not on PMThaksin’s scale for starters) and more accountable democracy will certainly lead Thai politics to a better direction. But this will only be possible post-Thaksin self-interested politiking.
901, royal politics and Thaksin Shinawatra
Dear Joseph Strachan: You’re not antagonizing me. I’m just suggesting you are ignorant. But points for coming back, I thought you would be one of those hit-and-run commenters.
You say “So why are they now doing the same thing themselves?” Well, perhaps I missed it, but I don’t believe the Red Shirts have broken into and tried to seize a television station, occupied Government House and stole all sorts of materials (including guns, Uzi’s, remember?) and immobilized Bangkok’s airports.
The Democrats in the PAD leadership? What was that you had to say about them? I’m listening.
When you say “We are in deep trouble in this country,” I agree, but I’m curious when you date this big trouble to. Can you clarify that for us?
It’s also puzzling that you seem to be against both street protests and “nonchalantly discussing these issues out of academic interest.”
I don’t quite understand the “nonchalantly” part when I see vigorous debate, but what exactly are you suggesting? Shut up and do what the government says?
Certainly you can understand why the Red Shirts might think that the same rules that applied to the PAD should apply to them. Do you support prosecuting the PAD for their illegal actions last year? Certainly a good way to teach respect for the law is to apply it equally.
What exactly are you suggesting is acceptable behavior?
901, royal politics and Thaksin Shinawatra
having claimed that major infrastructure projects are “cesspits of corruption”
I notice that the Democrats, with no sign of complaint by the PAD, have had cabinet meetings to get the infrastructure projects moving “to save the country”
does anyone know which ministers are happily now at the “trough” planning for their happy and wealthy retirement, or
should we assume that the Democrats are corruption=free and because of the secrecy surrounding their military-controlled government noone will ever question where the money is going?
UDD – where to?
“And the reds have been very much more “civilized” in their behavior than the PAD ever was“.
This piece by a generally unbiased reporter/journalist puts things into perspective :
http://www.prachatai.com/english/news.php?id=1069
901, royal politics and Thaksin Shinawatra
Chris Baker #20 :
In his Time interview on 6 March, Thaksin said two things about the Sukumwit meeting.
First, that he would soon name names. He’s done that.
Second, that he has a recording of the meeting….
Actually, what Thaksin said was : ” there was a meeting in one house on Sukhumvit [Road in Bangkok] and one of the attendees revealed to me–and I have the tapes of what happened–that the meeting was about getting rid of me”
From the rally last night, it seems that “the tapes of what happened” turned out to be the same video of Sondhi L’s Virginia speech I mentioned #23 above. And the part that Sondhi L talked about the role of Surayut had already been shown at previous rally.
Thaksin’s supporters now put the video on YouTube using as title, the well-known Thai sarcasm : “sia ma” (not sure how to translate into English). The first part is the one Khun Oppai mentioned at #26, the second part is here http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8fqnB6TZpvc&feature=related
Last night one of the Red rally organizers, Natthawut Sai-kua, was about to show a new part of the video, but apparently technical difficulty intervened. Natthawut then went on to summerize the content (“it’s about the ‘cliam of the High-Up’ [р╕нр╣Йр╕▓р╕Зр╣Ар╕Ър╕╖р╣Йр╕нр╕Зр╕кр╕╣р╕З] [support] Sondhi made”) and told his audience to watch it on YouTube instead (the “sia ma” above).
What’s interesting about the part that Natthawut wanted to show is that it concerns Sondhi’s recounting of the Queen’s sister (Lady Bussaba) summonded Sondhi [to the palace ?] to receive “a gift from the Royal Court” (widely understood to be the Blue Scarf”) from Bussaba. Here’s what Sondhi said in the clip:
р╕Ир╕Щр╕Бр╕гр╕░р╕Чр╕▒р╣Ир╕З р╕бр╕╡р╕кр╕▒р╕Нр╕Нр╕▓р╕Ур╕Ър╕▓р╕Зр╕кр╕▒р╕Нр╕Нр╕▓р╕Ур╕бр╕▓р╕Цр╕╢р╕Зр╕Ьр╕б р╕Ир╕╣р╣Ир╣Ж р╕Ьр╕бр╕кр╕╣р╣Йр╕нр╕вр╕╣р╣И р╕Бр╣Зр╕бр╕╡р╕Вр╕нр╕Зр╕Вр╕зр╕▒р╕Нр╕Кр╕┤р╣Йр╕Щр╕лр╕Щр╕╢р╣Ир╕З р╕бр╕▓р╕Ир╕▓р╕Бр╕гр╕▓р╕Кр╕кр╕│р╕Щр╕▒р╕Б р╕Ьр╣Ир╕▓р╕Щр╕бр╕▓р╕Чр╕▓р╕Зр╕Чр╣Ир╕▓р╕Щр╕Ьр╕╣р╣Йр╕лр╕Нр╕┤р╕Зр╕Ър╕╕р╕йр╕Ър╕▓ р╕Лр╕╢р╣Ир╕Зр╣Ар╕Ыр╣Зр╕Щр╕Щр╣Йр╕нр╕Зр╕кр╕▓р╕зр╕Юр╕гр╕░р╕гр╕▓р╕Кр╕┤р╕Щр╕╡ р╕Ыр╕гр╕▓р╕Бр╕Пр╕зр╣Ир╕▓р╕Ьр╕бр╣Бр╕Др╣Ир╣Др╕Фр╣Йр╕гр╕▒р╕Ър╕зр╕▒р╕Щр╣Ар╕Фр╕╡р╕вр╕з р╕Ьр╕бр╣Ар╕Вр╣Йр╕▓р╣Др╕Ыр╕гр╕▒р╕Ър╕Фр╣Йр╕зр╕вр╕Хр╕▒р╕зр╣Ар╕нр╕Зр╕Бр╕▒р╕Ър╕Чр╣Ир╕▓р╕Щр╕Ьр╕╣р╣Йр╕лр╕Нр╕┤р╕Зр╕Ър╕╕р╕йр╕Ър╕▓ р╣Вр╕Чр╕гр╕ир╕▒р╕Юр╕Чр╣Мр╕бр╕▓р╕лр╕▓р╕Ьр╕бр╣Ар╕Хр╣Зр╕бр╣Ар╕ер╕в р╕Ыр╣Лр╕▓р╣Ар╕Ыр╕гр╕бр╣Гр╕лр╣Йр╕Др╕Щр╕кр╕Щр╕┤р╕Чр╣Вр╕Чр╕гр╕бр╕▓ р╕Юр╕ер╣Ар╕нр╕Бр╕Кр╕зр╕ер╕┤р╕Х р╕вр╕Зр╣Гр╕Ир╕вр╕╕р╕Чр╕Ш р╕Чр╕╕р╕Бр╕Др╕Щр╣Вр╕Чр╕гр╕бр╕▓р╕лр╕бр╕Ф р╕Цр╕▓р╕бр╕зр╣Ир╕▓ р╕Ир╕гр╕┤р╕Зр╕лр╕гр╕╖р╕нр╣Ар╕Ыр╕ер╣Ир╕▓ ….
As he was about to show the clip, Natthawut shouted: “I don’t believe any of what Sondhi said in this clip that I’m going to play, but I want you all to know what Sondhi said.”
Had it been shown, it would be the first time the Red rally, via the showing of the clip, openly mentioned the Queen’s sister’s (and presumeably [?] the Queen herself [?]) support of the PAD.
901, royal politics and Thaksin Shinawatra
Joseph #37,
thanks for reminding us that things are serious and your (tearful?) concern for the Thai people
what do you think of Thaksins advice on how to run the country compared to the Democrats efforts?
specifically I wonder how the miltary billion on top of their bloated budgets are improving the situation in the country? do you think a submarine and additional jets will help ordinary Thais or just keep them docile in their villages?
do you think that the delays caused by the hysterical PAD against implementing infrastructure projects and actually crashing the electronic exports through the airports at a critical time last year have assisted Thailand weather and climb out of the financial situation?
901, royal politics and Thaksin Shinawatra
re: Joseph Strachan
*dons his pith helmet and safari suit*
Yes, yes…with all these natives running amok and screaming about “political enfranchisement” and “social/ethnic equality” , it is bloody difficult to do any business nowadays isn’t? Hopefully, he will soon restore some damn order to this godforsaken place. Yes, he may be a son-of-a-bitch, but he’s our son-of-a-bitch, right?
Anyway, Joseph, I do hope you can attend the cotillion that my wife is organizing at the Colonial Club next month. It will be a very flash time, what?
901, royal politics and Thaksin Shinawatra
Ralph / Amberwaves, I apologize if what I have said antagonizes you. Yes, we wished for some peace while the PAD was similarly engaged in their own wrongdoings. But did I not hear Thaksin’s nodders crying out against the PAD? So why are they now doing the same thing themselves?
In case you good people don’t realize, we are in deep trouble in this country, while all you good folks are nonchalantly discussing these issues out of academic interest, people here are losing their homes, jobs, health, and in some cases, their lives.
Now we have some stability and some accountability, but you just can’t wait to bring back the chaos again, can you?
Debate on lese majeste
No debate, just observation…
Les Majeste laws do not exist in most of the world, so many Foreign tourists are unfamiliar with the concept and people do make mistakes.
As a Foreign resident, what often startles me is how a high placed Thai person, like a former Prime Minister, can openly commit Les Majeste and not be challenged or punished, but a tourist, who doesn’t know about the law, is arrested and severely punished…
Mr. Shin (awat) is a prime example. He openly overrode the King’s needs, remained PM, and even now has a large following..
Another example are the crimes related to illegal visas. Most foreigners cannot read Thai and do not know what a proper Visa looks like, so are easily misled and cheated by visa services and corrupt immigration officials.
However, who is arrested for the invalid stamp, or the perceived Les Majeste – the innocent Foreigner who was completely unaware that anything was wrong…
901, royal politics and Thaksin Shinawatra
[Below are the key parts from Thaksin’s video speech last night (27/3/09). These extracts are the parts where he talked about the past, and said something which added to the information from the speech on the previous night (posted above). In between these extracts, he spoke several times saying privy councilors should not be involved in politics because it makes people misunderstand that the King is behind them. In the middle, he gave a rabble-rousing address, calling on the red shirts to help restore democracy. Towards the end he gave a proposal: reverse back to the point prior to the April 2006 election; bring back the 1997 constitution with amendments to correct the problems over appointment to independent bodies; hold a general election; he will not be involved.]
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That day I had a meeting with government officials at Santi Maitri house. I told all of them to work to the full, because I knew officials had begun to run in “neutral gear”, had begun to have interference by the person with extra-constitutional charismatic power. I had to push them to work. A person with extra-constitutional charismatic power, what does it mean? It means the constitution does not lay down any structure, any power in administration, but because he has charismatic power (barami) he can covertly give orders. Officials are deferential and agree to follow, agree to go against the orders of their superior.
The phrase person with extra-constitutional charismatic power created a big fuss. Sondhi [Lim] claimed I meant the King. I was not so bold. I’m loyal. I was not so bold as to say that. In truth, the person with extra-constitutional charismatic power is General Prem Tinsulanond [Big cheer]. I didn’t dare say it then. And one of General Prem’s people phoned to ask me to say clearly that it was not General Prem. But it was, so I wouldn’t. [Big cheer]
Because General Prem was involved in politics, and the military was involved, we had the coup, the constitution of 2007, and the country has gone backwards by at least 15 years.
Panlop said it was not General Surayud that called him to the meeting but the owner of the house, Pi Malakul…. General Surayud said that three privy councilors went to have audience with the king, General Surayud, General Prem, and a third I won’t name because I’m not sure
At the coup, General Prem took Nai Bung and the others to audience. Why? If a coup group wants to go to audience, they can go, why should a privy councilor go too? It’s as if he was the head of the coup group.
That Pa descends to play politics, to order this and that, in his role as a person with extra-constitutional charismatic power, is something that destroys the procedures of the country, gives rise to a system of double-standards, gives rise to social injustice
Pa has no children but children are growing up. They must have a future, must live in a country with a proper system, a democracy that commands international acceptance, and social justice, not a system in which Pa can press this button and that button.
When I was premier, I thought there was something funny with one deputy PM. Later I learnt that he invited a business friend of mine to be a minister. It turns out, General Surayud intended to make him [i.e., the deputy pm] prime minister under Article 7. This was wrong. Inviting a businessman to be a minister. I was shocked. My own deputy pm, why should he act so funny.
The intervention, the meeting at Khun Pi’s house in Sukumwit gave rise to many events. There were attempts on my life–people dare not talk about it because of criminal proceedings. There were two attempts by sniper fire but I was lucky. The first time, I changed my route, returning from Chiang Rai to Chiang Mai, not via Lampang, and they had set the gunman at Lampang. The second time in Sanam Luang, they arranged to place the gunman in the Political Science Building at Thammasat. They thought I would speak at 8 p.m. but as it happens I spoke earlier and so the gunman was not ready when I left the building. And the third time was the car bomb, two times at the airport, and the third near my house, at the Sangyi intersection of Charan[sanitwong] road. In the end they caught the culprits with firm evidence. As far as I enquired, the person who was behind all three times and who followed the matter closely, often, two to three times, is called Nai Bung, Nai Bung.
UDD – where to?
My dear Sidh,
Nice of you to mention the military – so upright and honest and incorruptible. Wonder why the “urban middleclasses mass anger and protests” never apply to them.
I never miss the point – simply insist that if you accuse someone, please apply some honesty – harping on the “tax” issue is misleading and dis-honest. Then “of course” honesty is not a pre-requisite to PAD membership.
UDD – where to?
I have been very impressed with the number of Thais in the streets in Bangkok the past few days. The house organs in the media have been saying 20 or 30 thousand, but it looks many more than that and people on the scene corroborate that there are many, many people out in opposition to the PAD/Democrat combine.
The reds have dwarfed anything the PAD was ever able to do, and at this time it is actually the government that is paying for participation with their 2000B checks. I have read that some of the reds are turning over their checks to the red leadership. I hope not too many. They surely need the cash more than the “leadership” does.
And the reds have been very much more “civilized” in their behavior than the PAD ever was. The Bangkok Post had an article in which they calmly detailed four concrete proposals by Thaksin himself that made a lot of sense to me, calling for elections and pledging that he would not run, for instance. He pointed out too that it was the PAD/Democrat side whose actions had “politicized” the monarchy more than any others.
Regardless the leadership I was very gratified to see so many Thais taking to the streets in support of democracy. I hope that people begin to organize among themselves and to develop the real, grass roots leadership they require to regain and retain the reins of government in this wonderful country of Thailand.
901, royal politics and Thaksin Shinawatra
The Bangkok Post had a very interesting article on Thaksin’s speech. If Thaksin said what they say he said then this is a very constructive speech. He made four points, according to the Bangkok Post :
1. The country must revert back to the April 2, 2006, general election.
2. Thaksin said that if a general election was called now, he would not enter the race.
3. [Thaksin] added the Democrat-led government was not legitimate and must quit.
4. After a new government was formed, the constitution must be rewritten, using the abrogated 1997 charter as a model.
These seem to me to be very reasonable suggestions. Coupled with the Post’s reporting of Thaksin’s very level-headed assessment of the whole lèse–majesté mess I think this was a very constructive speech on Thaksin’s part and I wrote to them congratulating the Bangkok Post for publishing it in such a disinterested manner.
In fact their newly acquired disinterest attests to the inherent reasonableness of this proposal, to its transparent appeal to the majority of Thai people (there seem to be hundreds rather than tens of thousands of Thais in the streets in Bangkok), and to the imminent return of a measure of democracy to the wonderful country of Thailand.
901, royal politics and Thaksin Shinawatra
Whilst Joseph Strachan would have been better to open his comments less generally, than to say he speaks for the “vast majority”of expats(presumably those are the people he refers to as “us”), I think many of the other commentors on this thread should also be careful, that they too, are not appointing themselves as “spokespersons” for the Thai people – without first gaining acceptance of such a position…from the Thai people, themselves.
Still, I do admit, to being one of his “us” and agree with much of what he said.
Further, I would like to add to his thoughts, with the following:
There seems to be a collective amnesia about what Thaksin did, to get himself deposed in the first place.
Perhaps it would be a good idea, if he did “win back” his position at the “top of the Thai tree”(well at least along side the top- where he seemed to believe he was at).
I am sure, that after a short period, this belief that he, and only he, is capable of bringing “true” democracy to the Thai people (having only experienced it in its “true form” whe he was in power) will surely be put to the test, with the same old, same old tricks as before.
It will not be too long before, once again, forums like this, will need to watch what they say about him. Nor would it be too long, before the threat of “force” and “depravation” of government funds would again be used against the medie, because they will not do his bidding.
For those who might comment on media freedoms, by claiming, “that is exactly what the current authorities are doing, re the LM laws”, I would say, as important as this matter is, it was regularly used 2001-6 to shut people up. It was pleasing to see Abihisit say yesterday, that the law must administered carefully. I hope it is,form here on in, but that is another issue and not part of my commentary here.
If you really want a champion to fight for real democracy in Thailand,
I doubt that man from “somehwere in Africa”, who is now using a storyline, which it seems, was developed by the writers of Thai soaps, to tell his tale of misery and woe and has a group of followers who need to show such simple symbolism, as the wearing of Red shirts, so a to so unimaginatively ape, the “yellow shirts”,is the answer.
But maybe that’s the sort of “democracy” many of the writers here feel is appropriate for Thailand.
I think the country is better than that.
Heath Dollar on Harry’s literary ambition
For the record, quoting a MySpace page may not be the most accurate means of keeping track of people’s life stories….Heath was most definitely in Chiang Rai before and during Harry’s tenure at Mae Fah Luang. I can attest to this as well, as I was also teaching there.
Harry did indeed share his manuscript–with several teachers at MFLU. I also remember the blue cover with the butterfly on it when he published it himself. And Heath’s recollections are wholly consistent with my impressions of Harry. In fact, his pushing the limits attitude was par for the course of Harry’s behavior in general. It is unfortunate that he was made to be the whipping boy of an unevenly enforced, borderline abused law—but he was voluntarily living and working in Thailand, and should have been aware and respectful of Thai laws accordingly. He certainly had ample access to a reliable resource/barometer for appropriate conduct in his wonderfully talented and accomplished Thai partner, Tam.
The other side of the story deserves to be told–lashing Heath on the web does nothing to advance the truth of what happened specifically to Harry, or to contextualize the larger issues and political tensions facing Thailand during this tumultuous time.
901, royal politics and Thaksin Shinawatra
“It’s so sad !” >> Quite true. However, I don’t refer to the reds but rather of the “self-inflicted ignorance” (Preuss) displayed in your comment. How can we hope to solve Thailand’s political crisis when many people simply refuse to take out their heads from the sand in which they have buried them in the assumption that, if they don’t see a phenomenon, it does not exist, hanging instead on to an ideological image of harmony that is “destroyed” by some supposedly paid hooligans. This position is also self-defeating, because it ignores the actual dynamics of political-opinion building etc. that have been going on in wide parts of Thailand’s regions. Thus, you hopes can never come true.
901, royal politics and Thaksin Shinawatra
Joseph Strachan is being ironic, right?
When he says “How can an opposition party take part in inciting civil unrest and still retain any respect from us? Why are they even permitted to do so?” he is actually trying to remind people about the Democrat Party MPs who were in the PAD leadership last year, right?
When the PAD employed armed thugs to safeguard their occupation of Government House and Bangkok’s two airports, right? I guess he and his “vast majority” were just wishing for some peace then, as well, yes?
Very clever, sir, I tip my hat to you!
901, royal politics and Thaksin Shinawatra
Nice touch by the red shirts to taunt pictures of Angkana Radubpanyawut lying naked on the mortuary slab after being murdered by the police with an explosive tear gas grenade. Perhaps snuff porn is the latest desperate tactic for Thaksin to whip the mob into a frenzy. I hope that Ajarn Giles can get a video of that gruesome scene for part 3 of his Thai State Crimes series on Youtube.
I think Joseph Strachan # 29 accurately reflects the views of many farangs and Thais who are not tenured ivory tower academics at foreign universities but struggle to make a living in the real world Thailand.
“The delusional ex-PM, probably the most corrupt politician Thailand has ever had, has sworn to take the whole Nation down with him. even if it takes all of the tax-free cash he has stashed away in foreign bank accounts.” Thaksin has never explained how he got around Thailand’s money laundering regulations to get so much cash overseas. Squashing the SC Assets assets concealment case against him, involving fake Labuan based investment funds, was a top priority, involving getting rid of the entire DSI top brass when Samak became PM. Conveniently this also happened to be the only case that was not investigated by the AEC and so couldn’t be whitewashed through a constitutional amendment. It was bad luck for him that Temasek refused to play his dirty game with the block of Shin Corp shares he had secreted offshore in Ample Rich and forced him to sell it onshore on the big lot board.
UDD – where to?
I have nothing to add to what I already said regarding Phil Robertson’s dismissal of Ji Ungpakorn. My observation that someone on the other side of politics as defined by current divisions in Thailand is hardly likely to consider that that Ji has anything much to offer. I am sure that Ji would reject the kind of unionism sponsored by SILS and by the U.S. government and its agencies.
BTW, membership of the Johns Hopkins alumni hardly seems like a measure of anything about political sides. Isn’t Prem the president of it? That is unlikely to make him a buddy of Jakraphob.
It would be interesting to know more about the role of state unions and Somchai in PAD. Phil Robertson is probably better placed than most to comment.
The horror of political violence in Burma
Hi Nanda,
I am now reading Gosh’s new book “Sea Of Poppies”. Quite interesting, but with too many non-English words and names the book is hard to follow and I’ve already lost the plot many times along the way!
In his book “Glass Palace”, the detail depictions of Burmese extreme violence against Indians living in Rangoon were really horrible, but it reflects the reality in Burma as I have also witnessed many scenes of horrible violence against Indians and Chinese in Rangoon. The worst was the Chinese Riots in the sixties when I was just a young boy.
Hundreds and hundreds of Chinese families were killed when the Ne-Win’s military government conveniently turned the Rice Riots due to a then very severe shortage of rice in Rangoon into the horribly violent Race Riots and the hapless Chinese became the scapegoats.
Many historians had conveniently blamed the high level of violence in Burma on the racial characters of us Burmese while blindly ignoring the dark influences from the endless succession of violent colonial wars, the Second World War, and the ongoing long civil war.
(Following is an excerpt from The Penguin History of the Second World War)
“The Burmese villages, partly because of the peculiarly rapid tendency of the Burmese to resort to violence, had always had a higher proportion of criminal types than was usual in the East.”