Stephan, you are wrong about the ‘guy’. The King does not prosecute lese majeste cases himself. In fact, he has expressed dismay that this law is abused for political purposes. He has pardoned many lese majeste violators. What is disappointing is that he has not issued a decree barring any further prosecutions under this law; as a result, lese majeste suspects spend months in jail under horrendous conditions, before eventually being pardoned. Why not declare the lese majeste law null and void? If the King has so much influence on Thai society, he certainly has the power to make this law unenforceable. Doing so would remove a major impediment to Thailand’s progress on basic rights and freedoms.
The real problem with lese majeste is not the King, it is those nationalist Thais who use the law as a weapon against anyone who disagrees with them on anything relating to the monarchy. Any Thai on the street can file a lese majeste complaint against another Thai, or a foreigner, if the complainant feels that an insult or disrespect has been shown against the King, Thailand, Thai culture, the Thai flag, etc. Believe it or not, failing to stand for the national anthem in a cinema has resulted in lese majeste charges! In the USA, failing to stand for the national anthem may result in angry stares or comments, but criminal charges would be unthinkable. In Britain, there are no lese majeste laws to ‘protect’ the Queen and the royal family, and the British tabloids constantly dig up dirt on certain royal family members, but by and large the monarchy is viewed positively, as a source of pride for the British people. Why can’t things be the same in Thailand? Instead, politicians, academics, and even ordinary people must be extremely careful what they say, for fear of being dragged off to one of Thailand’s infamous prisons.
If you were Prem and you known that today there would be a coup, for what reason did you have to go to the palace with the coupmakers and make people suspect that you were behind them? It’s basic logic. Just because Prem went to the palace before the coupmakers doesn’t mean he wasn’t involved. To conclude from Prem’s speech is miserably wrong. He said he wasn’t involved, but let’s consider Prem’s behavior before the coup. Prem, the chief advisor of the King, spoke to the cadets publicly before the coup that “jockey does not own the horse” (р╕гр╕▒р╕Рр╕Ър╕▓р╕ер╣Бр╕Др╣Ир╕Ир╣Кр╕нр╕Др╕Бр╕╡р╣Й р╕бр╕▓р╣Бр╕ер╣Йр╕зр╕Бр╣Зр╣Др╕Ы), “don’t pay respect to rich men who are corrupt” (р╕нр╕вр╣Ир╕▓р╣Др╕лр╕зр╣Йр╕Др╕Щр╕гр╕зр╕вр╣Бр╕Хр╣Ир╣Вр╕Бр╕З), and “Thailand has a Hitler” (р╣Др╕Чр╕вр╕бр╕╡р╕ор╕┤р╕Хр╣Ар╕ер╕нр╕гр╣М) despite that he had been quiet for a long time. If you are not innocent, you will surely know what he meant, given the political situation at that time. Let alone the evidence from the leaders of the anti-Thaksin movement itself such as Sondhi and Suriyasai. To say that Prem didn’t know anything about this is like, well, a joke.
Not long ago, the spokeman of the army said that Gen.Anupong wasn’t involved with the coup. But it is Gen.Sondhi himself who said a year ago that he planned the coup with Anupong only. Strangely enough, Anupong didn’t deny this at the time Gen.Sondhi said. I still remember that back then it was kind of heroic if you staged the coup to “rescue” the nation from evil Thaksin. But now it seems like everyone tries to deny it.
Susie, I think that the Human Rights Council could only advocate for the welfare of individuals implicated in Lese Majeste, rather than act as a mediatory body. This is because the UNHRC is a liberal political organisation. Consequently, if they were to be in a position of arbitration, a ‘mediation’ process would more likely be persuasion process.
What I feel you are really asking is, ‘how can Thais be more liberal?’, and that question can only be answered by Thais. It must be for individual Thais to determine that they have rights. Liberals cannot thrust rights upon others. If we demand people observe rights, we are not just demanding that people adhere to a pseudo legal code, we are imposing a culture and a history on people who may find it antagonistic and incompatible with their own.
Gen. Prem used “р╣Ар╕гр╕▓” (if directly translated, it’s “WE”), to refer to himself. It’s not uncommon at all, and you should know as a Thai, for Thai people particularly the young ones to use “р╣Ар╕гр╕▓” as “I” in normal conversation.
dantampa was misled by the incorrect reporting by the Bangkok Post…
are you so happy that there is no proof that Prem waited until it was nearly time for the coup to happen before he went to the palace?
why is this important to you? do you think it was good for Thailand for the coup to happen?
Portman #51
I dont understand why your story about Purachai is interesting or relevant… “Thaksin booted him out” presumably because he disagreed with his position….
my people tell me that Thaksin inspired Thai people to be constructive and helpful rather than repressed as they are by the military… hard to quantify bit it means a lot in terms of Thailands productivity and place in the world
pity to sacrifice this because you believe the ravings of Sondhi Lim… and the carefully orchestrated “wise” words from Prem
why does Prem want the Army to create a new division in the north-central region?
seems Sondhi Lim is both paranoid and schizophrenic… believes everyone is against him and cant decide if anyone is really his friend.. love/hate Thaksin, love/hate Prem, Sarayud, Abhisit…
Peter likes posters to be “frank & impartial” and deplores “fact-distorting”. Then comes up with this gem: “Matichon has been a staunch supporter of Thaksin throughout the time before & after the political crisis/infighting. In fact, Matichon has outwardly acted as a media arm for him & his cronies.” Better put the Bangkok Post in that category as well as they obviously distorted General Prem’s words in order to suppport the devilish Thaksin. Happy April Fools’ day.
Thank you for being frank & impartial. I know how you feel & I totally agree with your comment.
I know it’s a futile effort, but I’d like to urge Thai & Farang commentators who are highly educated here to be more open-minded, constructive, fair & truthful in making your comments. Distortion or manipulation of fact to justify one’s self is a form of lie. It’s a sin to lie & slander against others without evidence.
Good try for laying out the time line linking Gen. Prem to the coup, but sorry to say that your fact-distorting effort here has failed miserably based on Gen. Prem’s press interview below which I copied it from Matichon newspaper. I’m sure you can read Thai. If not, ask an independent third party to translate the factual information particularly the italic part below for you.
For our foreign friends, I just want to let you know that it’s well-known among Thais that Matichon has been a staunch supporter of Thaksin throughout the time before & after the political crisis/infighting. In fact, Matichon has outwardly acted as a media arm for him & his cronies. So, no one should doubt or suspect if the statement was twisted around or manipulated to suit one’s own bias opinions.
Re: Khun dantampa #55 It thus appeares to confirm that the photo showing the junta leaders meeting with Prem, the King and Queen, was taken at least 6 hours before the coup was officially announced on Thai TV around 11 PM.
He arrived at the Palace shortly after 9 pm. (not 3 pm., he used the Thai words “3 thum” which means 21 o’clock) following the announcement of the coup.
He further claims that two generals/coup leaders arrived at the Palace around 11 pm. but the last one only arrived nearly midnight. “This proves that we [he oddly used the pronoun ‘we’ during most of this talk! – Somsak] didn’t bring them to the Jitladda Palace to have an audience with HM: we went by ourselve [as did they]”.
The photo was released shortly after the coup and it’s understood that it was taken around midnight, the time the coup leaders had an audience with HM King and Queen. Thaksin supporters always claim that the photo supports their theory that Prem was involved in the coup. I personally don’t think it does, but that doesn’t mean Prem’s involement isn’t true either.
Apropos my post two days ago, questioning just when the palace photo was taken, showing General Prem, the King and Queen meeting with the coup leaders on September 19, Prem broke silence today and was quoted in the Bangkok Post as follows:
“Gen Prem also said he did not lead army commanders to see His Majesty the King on Sept 19, 2006, as alleged. He was already with the King at Chitralada Palace before they arrived.
The Privy Council president said that after hearing about the coup that day he went to the palace about 3 pm in case the King wanted to issue any special orders. The army commanders arrived later at the palace, about 5pm. He was not informed about their visit in advance.”
Prem’s statement appears to confirm that he had knowledge of the coup at least 6 hours before the first troops arrived in Bangkok after 9 PM, followed by a BBC news bulletin sometime after 10 PM, Bangkok time. It thus appeares to confirm that the photo showing the junta leaders meeting with Prem, the King and Queen, was taken at least 6 hours before the coup was officially announced on Thai TV around 11 PM.
That time line varies significantly with previous reports.
For anyone who can read Thai and might be interested: I’ve drawn an overall sketch of the evolution of the UDD movements since mid-December to the present. I divide it into two phases: the Radical Reds (mid-December to mid-March) and the ‘Attacking the so-called ‘a-mat-ta-ya-thip-pa-tai’, Profesting Loyalty to the Monarchy phase. Each has distinct themes of its own.
…and I argue, more in the mould of an opportunistic Western politician with a complexly negotiated power base than the typical Thai ‘ThaoKae’…
Yes Sidh S, I agree.
Observing Thaksin, it seemed to me that although in the West a class of yeoman have evolved – Bushes, Clintons, Kerrys, and so forth – trustworthy servants of the plutocrats who can be relied upon to look after the interests of their employers, and who will essentially work for wages, that in Thailand there had not yet evolved such a class. So the plutocrats had to roll up their sleeves and actually do the work themselves.
Or perhaps Thaksin just traveled in the wrong circles and didn’t know any of the young Oxonians who “could be had”. Or perhaps, knowing how intrinsically untrustworthy he is himself, he could not bring himself to trust such of those folks as he did know.
Whatever the case with Thaksin Abhisit does seem a sterling, reliable retainer for the sociopathic plutocrats. He is not even ruffled when they make a fool of him by feeding him lines both they and he must know are going to be contradicted immediately in action. He is a real professional.
The Bangkok Post is shocked! and outraged! that freedom of speech and thought are being trampled on… elsewhere.
UN votes for censorship It is no surprise that a group which includes countries that flaunt their disgust for human rights would trample on freedom of speech and thought. But it is worrying that such a prohibition should gain international currency without stronger opposition. As they always do, the supporters of a foul-smelling package wrapped it up in perfumed paper.
Their headband may read “Press” but their coattails read “Kick Me!”.
About the first line
Well, if that heading doesn’t give us a Google boost, nothing will! .
I actually found this post by searching Google for Australian same sex visas, while doing a research for a site I deal with. A lot of prospective travelers might visit this blog 🙂
I’ve lived in Thailand as a foreign correspondent for 27 years. Hua Hin Dave is correct in his overall analysis of the situation. The current coalition is more transparent and more democratically oriented in every way.
Hua Hin Dave forgot to add how Thaksin would have responded to such questions.
a) Hold up a card with an ‘X’ on it, signifying he didn’t like the question, and would not answer it.
b) (addressing everyone in the crowd except the questioner) ‘Don’t listen to what outsiders say.’
c) ‘Trust me. I have a Civil Service Reform active that will make out country run more efficiently without interference from the legistlative or judicial branches,’
Could the United Nations Human Rights Council get involve in solving the tension between the two opposing forces, those who want the lese majeste law to be abolished and those who prefer to keep them? It is clear that no solution could be found without outside intervention.
Ban-Ki moon, the UN Secretary General points out that it is the responsibility of the United Nations Human Rights Council to remind States of their responsibility to fully respect and implement all human rights and fundamental freedoms.
How can the UN Human Rights Council play a role to promote and protect human rights in the darkest corners of the world like the case of less majeste law in Thailand?
Here’s the whole quote, from the Matichon transcript (I haven’t watched the video).
———————————————————
“Today there was news that the international terrorist who is foreign minister will take back my passport. Come on. A passport costs a thousand baht plus. Take it. But you cannot take from me the heart of a Thai. Today, brothers and sisters, there’s no need to worry about me. I’ll survive. But I worry about you. If there is the sound of gunfire, of soldiers shooting the people, I’ll return immediately to lead you to march on Bangkok. I can no longer accept such dictatorship. Brothers and sisters in the army and police, we are all Thai flesh and blood, all love the King and Queen the same as you, as Thais. But there are some people trying to monopolize [? power] to your disadvantage… I want to say that this is one of the most important occasions for us to change the country to a true democracy, to abolish authoritarianism from the country. Brothers, sisters, and friends in the bureaucracy, today many of you are afraid because you are threatened or sometimes transferred. Today you must be as neutral as you can until a neutral government is in place. Please uphold the dignity of the country by coming to join our movement.”
I wonder if Somsak or anyone else would like to comment on Thaksin’s use of the phrase р╣Ар╕кр╕╡р╕вр╕Зр╕Ыр╕╖р╕Щр╣Бр╕Хр╕Б (sound of gunfire) in his speech last night. He doesn’t know what it ‘means’? He knows exactly?
This simply shows that Thailand still belongs to the Dark Ages, from which Europe was freed about 500 years ago. It seems that Thailand is also unique in ASEAN.
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On lèse majesté
Stephan, you are wrong about the ‘guy’. The King does not prosecute lese majeste cases himself. In fact, he has expressed dismay that this law is abused for political purposes. He has pardoned many lese majeste violators. What is disappointing is that he has not issued a decree barring any further prosecutions under this law; as a result, lese majeste suspects spend months in jail under horrendous conditions, before eventually being pardoned. Why not declare the lese majeste law null and void? If the King has so much influence on Thai society, he certainly has the power to make this law unenforceable. Doing so would remove a major impediment to Thailand’s progress on basic rights and freedoms.
The real problem with lese majeste is not the King, it is those nationalist Thais who use the law as a weapon against anyone who disagrees with them on anything relating to the monarchy. Any Thai on the street can file a lese majeste complaint against another Thai, or a foreigner, if the complainant feels that an insult or disrespect has been shown against the King, Thailand, Thai culture, the Thai flag, etc. Believe it or not, failing to stand for the national anthem in a cinema has resulted in lese majeste charges! In the USA, failing to stand for the national anthem may result in angry stares or comments, but criminal charges would be unthinkable. In Britain, there are no lese majeste laws to ‘protect’ the Queen and the royal family, and the British tabloids constantly dig up dirt on certain royal family members, but by and large the monarchy is viewed positively, as a source of pride for the British people. Why can’t things be the same in Thailand? Instead, politicians, academics, and even ordinary people must be extremely careful what they say, for fear of being dragged off to one of Thailand’s infamous prisons.
901, royal politics and Thaksin Shinawatra
If you were Prem and you known that today there would be a coup, for what reason did you have to go to the palace with the coupmakers and make people suspect that you were behind them? It’s basic logic. Just because Prem went to the palace before the coupmakers doesn’t mean he wasn’t involved. To conclude from Prem’s speech is miserably wrong. He said he wasn’t involved, but let’s consider Prem’s behavior before the coup. Prem, the chief advisor of the King, spoke to the cadets publicly before the coup that “jockey does not own the horse” (р╕гр╕▒р╕Рр╕Ър╕▓р╕ер╣Бр╕Др╣Ир╕Ир╣Кр╕нр╕Др╕Бр╕╡р╣Й р╕бр╕▓р╣Бр╕ер╣Йр╕зр╕Бр╣Зр╣Др╕Ы), “don’t pay respect to rich men who are corrupt” (р╕нр╕вр╣Ир╕▓р╣Др╕лр╕зр╣Йр╕Др╕Щр╕гр╕зр╕вр╣Бр╕Хр╣Ир╣Вр╕Бр╕З), and “Thailand has a Hitler” (р╣Др╕Чр╕вр╕бр╕╡р╕ор╕┤р╕Хр╣Ар╕ер╕нр╕гр╣М) despite that he had been quiet for a long time. If you are not innocent, you will surely know what he meant, given the political situation at that time. Let alone the evidence from the leaders of the anti-Thaksin movement itself such as Sondhi and Suriyasai. To say that Prem didn’t know anything about this is like, well, a joke.
Not long ago, the spokeman of the army said that Gen.Anupong wasn’t involved with the coup. But it is Gen.Sondhi himself who said a year ago that he planned the coup with Anupong only. Strangely enough, Anupong didn’t deny this at the time Gen.Sondhi said. I still remember that back then it was kind of heroic if you staged the coup to “rescue” the nation from evil Thaksin. But now it seems like everyone tries to deny it.
Let’s see this topic http://www.sameskybooks.org/board/index.php?showtopic=27605 (in Thai only) and see how their claims conflict with each other’s.
The fate of Suwicha Thakhor
Susie, I think that the Human Rights Council could only advocate for the welfare of individuals implicated in Lese Majeste, rather than act as a mediatory body. This is because the UNHRC is a liberal political organisation. Consequently, if they were to be in a position of arbitration, a ‘mediation’ process would more likely be persuasion process.
What I feel you are really asking is, ‘how can Thais be more liberal?’, and that question can only be answered by Thais. It must be for individual Thais to determine that they have rights. Liberals cannot thrust rights upon others. If we demand people observe rights, we are not just demanding that people adhere to a pseudo legal code, we are imposing a culture and a history on people who may find it antagonistic and incompatible with their own.
901, royal politics and Thaksin Shinawatra
Khun Somsak Jeamteerasakul #56
Gen. Prem used “р╣Ар╕гр╕▓” (if directly translated, it’s “WE”), to refer to himself. It’s not uncommon at all, and you should know as a Thai, for Thai people particularly the young ones to use “р╣Ар╕гр╕▓” as “I” in normal conversation.
901, royal politics and Thaksin Shinawatra
Peter #57
why are you so gleeful?
dantampa was misled by the incorrect reporting by the Bangkok Post…
are you so happy that there is no proof that Prem waited until it was nearly time for the coup to happen before he went to the palace?
why is this important to you? do you think it was good for Thailand for the coup to happen?
Portman #51
I dont understand why your story about Purachai is interesting or relevant… “Thaksin booted him out” presumably because he disagreed with his position….
my people tell me that Thaksin inspired Thai people to be constructive and helpful rather than repressed as they are by the military… hard to quantify bit it means a lot in terms of Thailands productivity and place in the world
pity to sacrifice this because you believe the ravings of Sondhi Lim… and the carefully orchestrated “wise” words from Prem
why does Prem want the Army to create a new division in the north-central region?
seems Sondhi Lim is both paranoid and schizophrenic… believes everyone is against him and cant decide if anyone is really his friend.. love/hate Thaksin, love/hate Prem, Sarayud, Abhisit…
901, royal politics and Thaksin Shinawatra
Peter likes posters to be “frank & impartial” and deplores “fact-distorting”. Then comes up with this gem: “Matichon has been a staunch supporter of Thaksin throughout the time before & after the political crisis/infighting. In fact, Matichon has outwardly acted as a media arm for him & his cronies.” Better put the Bangkok Post in that category as well as they obviously distorted General Prem’s words in order to suppport the devilish Thaksin. Happy April Fools’ day.
901, royal politics and Thaksin Shinawatra
Somsak, I thought the coup announcement was at 9.30PM via channel 5?
901, royal politics and Thaksin Shinawatra
To Mr. Joseph Strachan #29:
Thank you for being frank & impartial. I know how you feel & I totally agree with your comment.
I know it’s a futile effort, but I’d like to urge Thai & Farang commentators who are highly educated here to be more open-minded, constructive, fair & truthful in making your comments. Distortion or manipulation of fact to justify one’s self is a form of lie. It’s a sin to lie & slander against others without evidence.
901, royal politics and Thaksin Shinawatra
To “dantampa” #55.
Good try for laying out the time line linking Gen. Prem to the coup, but sorry to say that your fact-distorting effort here has failed miserably based on Gen. Prem’s press interview below which I copied it from Matichon newspaper. I’m sure you can read Thai. If not, ask an independent third party to translate the factual information particularly the italic part below for you.
For our foreign friends, I just want to let you know that it’s well-known among Thais that Matichon has been a staunch supporter of Thaksin throughout the time before & after the political crisis/infighting. In fact, Matichon has outwardly acted as a media arm for him & his cronies. So, no one should doubt or suspect if the statement was twisted around or manipulated to suit one’s own bias opinions.
р╕Вр╣Йр╕н 3 р╣Ар╕Вр╕▓р╕Ър╕нр╕Бр╕зр╣Ир╕▓ р╣Ар╕гр╕▓р╣Ар╕Ыр╣Зр╕Щр╕Др╕Щр╕Щр╕│р╕Ьр╕╣р╣Йр╕Ър╕▒р╕Нр╕Кр╕▓р╕Бр╕▓р╕гр╣Ар╕лр╕ер╣Ир╕▓р╕Чр╕▒р╕Юр╣Др╕Ыр╣Ар╕Эр╣Йр╕▓р╕Чр╕╣р╕ер╕ер╕░р╕нр╕нр╕Зр╕Шр╕╕р╕ер╕╡р╕Юр╕гр╕░р╕Ър╕▓р╕Ч р╕Юр╕гр╕░р╕Ър╕▓р╕Чр╕кр╕бр╣Ар╕Фр╣Зр╕Ир╕Юр╕гр╕░р╣Ар╕Ир╣Йр╕▓р╕нр╕вр╕╣р╣Ир╕лр╕▒р╕з р╕Лр╕╢р╣Ир╕Зр╕Бр╣Зр╣Др╕бр╣Ир╕Ир╕гр╕┤р╕З р╕Др╕╖р╕Щр╕Щр╕▒р╣Йр╕Щр╣Ар╕Вр╕▓р╕Ыр╕гр╕░р╕Бр╕▓р╕ир╕Ыр╕Пр╕┤р╕зр╕▒р╕Хр╕┤р╕Бр╕▒р╕Щ р╕Ыр╕гр╕░р╕бр╕▓р╕У 3 р╕Чр╕╕р╣Ир╕бр╣Ар╕ир╕йр╣Ж р╕Др╕╖р╕н р╕зр╕▒р╕Щр╕Чр╕╡р╣И 19 р╕Бр╕▒р╕Щр╕вр╕▓р╕вр╕Щ р╕Юр╕нр╣Ар╕гр╕▓р╣Др╕Фр╣Йр╕вр╕┤р╕Щр╕зр╣Ир╕▓ р╣Ар╕Вр╕▓ р╕Ыр╕Пр╕┤р╕зр╕▒р╕Хр╕┤р╕Бр╕▒р╕Щр╣Др╕Ы р╣Ар╕гр╕▓р╕Бр╣Зр╣Ар╕Вр╣Йр╕▓р╣Др╕Ыр╣Гр╕Щр╕Юр╕гр╕░р╕гр╕▓р╕Кр╕зр╕▒р╕Зр╕кр╕зр╕Щр╕Ир╕┤р╕Хр╕гр╕ер╕Фр╕▓ р╕Чр╕╡р╣Ир╣Ар╕гр╕▓р╣Ар╕Вр╣Йр╕▓р╣Др╕Ы р╣Ар╕Юр╕гр╕▓р╕░р╣Ар╕Ыр╣Зр╕Щр╕лр╕Щр╣Йр╕▓р╕Чр╕╡р╣Ир╕Вр╕нр╕Зр╣Ар╕гр╕▓ р╕Чр╕╡р╣Ир╣Ар╕Ыр╣Зр╕Щр╕нр╕Зр╕Др╕бр╕Щр╕Хр╕гр╕╡р╣Ар╕Щр╕╡р╣Ир╕в р╣Ар╕бр╕╖р╣Ир╕нр╕бр╕╡р╕Ыр╕▒р╕Нр╕лр╕▓р╕нр╕вр╣Ир╕▓р╕Зр╕Щр╕╡р╣Й р╣Ар╕гр╕▓р╕Бр╣Зр╕Хр╣Йр╕нр╕Зр╣Др╕Ыр╕нр╕вр╕╣р╣Ир╣Гр╕Бр╕ер╣Йр╣Ж р╕Юр╕гр╕░р╕Ър╕▓р╕Чр╕кр╕бр╣Ар╕Фр╣Зр╕Ир╕Юр╕гр╕░р╣Ар╕Ир╣Йр╕▓р╕нр╕вр╕╣р╣Ир╕лр╕▒р╕з р╣Ар╕Ьр╕╖р╣Ир╕нр╕зр╣Ир╕▓ р╕Чр╣Ир╕▓р╕Щр╕Ир╕░р╕бр╕╡р╕Юр╕гр╕░р╕гр╕▓р╕Кр╕Бр╕гр╕░р╣Бр╕кр╕гр╕▒р╕Ър╕кр╕▒р╣Ир╕Зр╕нр╕вр╣Ир╕▓р╕Зр╣Др╕гр╕Ър╣Йр╕▓р╕З р╣Ар╕гр╕▓р╕Ир╕░р╣Др╕Фр╣Йр╕гр╕▒р╕Ър╣Гр╕кр╣Ир╣Ар╕Бр╕ер╣Йр╕▓р╣Гр╕кр╣Ир╕Бр╕гр╕░р╕лр╕бр╣Ир╕нр╕бр╕бр╕▓р╕Ыр╕Пр╕┤р╕Ър╕▒р╕Хр╕┤р╣Ар╕Юр╕гр╕▓р╕░р╕бр╕▒р╕Щр╣Ар╕Ыр╣Зр╕Щр╣Ар╕лр╕Хр╕╕р╕Бр╕▓р╕гр╕Ур╣Мр╕Йр╕╕р╕Бр╣Ар╕Йр╕┤р╕Щ
р╣Ар╕гр╕▓р╣Ар╕Вр╣Йр╕▓р╣Др╕Ыр╕Ыр╕гр╕░р╕бр╕▓р╕У 3 р╕Чр╕╕р╣Ир╕бр╣Ар╕ир╕йр╣Ж р╕Др╕╕р╕Ур╕кр╕Щр╕Шр╕┤р╕Бр╕▒р╕Ъ р╕Др╕╕р╕Ур╕Кр╕ер╕┤р╕Х р╕Ьр╕Ъ.р╕Чр╕н. (р╕Юр╕е.р╕н.р╕н.р╕Кр╕ер╕┤р╕Х р╕Юр╕╕р╕Бр╕Ьр╕▓р╕кр╕╕р╕В) 2 р╕Др╕Щр╕Щр╕▒р╣Йр╕Щ р╣Ар╕Вр╣Йр╕▓р╣Др╕Ыр╣Ар╕бр╕╖р╣Ир╕нр╕Хр╕нр╕Щ 5 р╕Чр╕╕р╣Ир╕бр╣Ар╕ир╕й р╕Др╕╕р╕Ур╕кр╕Цр╕┤р╕гр╕Юр╕▒р╕Щр╕Шр╕╕р╣М р╕Ьр╕Ъ.р╕Чр╕г.(р╕Юр╕е.р╕г.р╕н.р╕кр╕Цр╕┤р╕гр╕Юр╕▒р╕Щр╕Шр╕╕р╣М р╣Ар╕Бр╕вр╕▓р╕Щр╕Щр╕Чр╣М) р╕бр╕▓р╕Чр╕╡р╕лр╕ер╕▒р╕З р╕бр╕▓р╣Ар╕Бр╕╖р╕нр╕Ъ 2 р╕вр╕▓р╕б р╣Бр╕кр╕Фр╕Зр╣Гр╕лр╣Йр╣Ар╕лр╣Зр╕Щр╕зр╣Ир╕▓ р╣Ар╕гр╕▓р╣Др╕бр╣Ир╣Др╕Фр╣Йр╕Щр╕│ 3 р╕Др╕Щ р╣Ар╕Вр╣Йр╕▓р╣Др╕Ыр╕Чр╕╡р╣Ир╕Юр╕гр╕░р╕гр╕▓р╕Кр╕зр╕▒р╕Зр╕кр╕зр╕Щр╕Ир╕┤р╕Хр╕гр╕ер╕Фр╕▓р╣Ар╕Юр╕╖р╣Ир╕нр╣Ар╕Вр╣Йр╕▓р╣Ар╕Эр╣Йр╕▓р╕п р╣Ар╕гр╕▓р╣Др╕Ыр╕Вр╕нр╕Зр╣Ар╕гр╕▓р╣Ар╕нр╕З
р╣Ар╕гр╕▓р╣Ар╕ер╣Ир╕▓р╕Вр╣Йр╕▓р╕бр╕Хр╕нр╕Щр╣Др╕Ыр╕Щр╕┤р╕Фр╕зр╣Ир╕▓ р╕Юр╕зр╕Бр╕Чр╕╡р╣Ир╣Ар╕Вр╣Йр╕▓р╣Др╕Ыр╕Ър╕нр╕Бр╕кр╕бр╕╕р╕лр╕гр╕▓р╕Кр╕нр╕Зр╕Др╕гр╕▒р╕Бр╕йр╣Мр╕зр╣Ир╕▓ р╣Ар╕Вр╕▓р╕Ир╕░р╕бр╕▓р╣Ар╕Вр╣Йр╕▓р╣Ар╕Эр╣Йр╕▓р╕пр╕Юр╕гр╕░р╕Ър╕▓р╕Чр╕кр╕бр╣Ар╕Фр╣Зр╕Ир╕Юр╕гр╕░р╣Ар╕Ир╣Йр╕▓р╕нр╕вр╕╣р╣Ир╕лр╕▒р╕з р╕кр╕бр╕╕р╕лр╕гр╕▓р╕Кр╕нр╕Зр╕Др╕гр╕▒р╕Бр╕йр╣Мр╕Бр╣Зр╣Др╕Ыр╕Бр╕гр╕▓р╕Ър╕Ър╕▒р╕Зр╕Др╕бр╕Чр╕╣р╕ер╕Юр╕гр╕░р╕Ър╕▓р╕Чр╕кр╕бр╣Ар╕Фр╣Зр╕Ир╕Юр╕гр╕░р╣Ар╕Ир╣Йр╕▓р╕нр╕вр╕╣р╣Ир╕лр╕▒р╕з р╕кр╕▒р╕Бр╕Юр╕▒р╕Бр╕лр╕Щр╕╢р╣Ир╕З р╕Бр╣Зр╣Ар╕кр╕Фр╣Зр╕Ир╕ер╕Зр╕бр╕▓р╕Чр╕▒р╣Йр╕З 2 р╕Юр╕гр╕░р╕нр╕Зр╕Др╣М р╕Юр╕зр╕Бр╕Щр╕╡р╣Йр╕Бр╣Зр╣Др╕Ыр╣Ар╕Вр╣Йр╕▓р╣Ар╕Эр╣Йр╕▓р╕п р╣Бр╕Хр╣Ир╕бр╕╡р╣Ар╕гр╕▓р╕нр╕вр╕╣р╣Ир╕Фр╣Йр╕зр╕в р╕Щр╕нр╕Бр╕Ир╕▓р╕Б 3 р╕Др╕Щр╣Бр╕ер╣Йр╕з р╕вр╕▒р╕Зр╕бр╕╡р╣Ар╕гр╕▓р╕нр╕╡р╕Бр╕Др╕Щр╕лр╕Щр╕╢р╣Ир╕З р╕Лр╕╢р╣Ир╕Зр╕гр╕╣р╕Ыр╕Цр╣Ир╕▓р╕вр╕Бр╣Зр╕бр╕╡ р╕гр╕╣р╕Ыр╕Цр╣Ир╕▓р╕вр╕Щр╕╡р╣Й р╕Юр╕гр╕░р╕Ър╕▓р╕Чр╕кр╕бр╣Ар╕Фр╣Зр╕Ир╕Юр╕гр╕░р╣Ар╕Ир╣Йр╕▓р╕нр╕вр╕╣р╣Ир╕лр╕▒р╕зр╕Чр╕гр╕Зр╕Юр╕гр╕░р╕Бр╕гр╕╕р╕Ур╕▓р╣Вр╕Ыр╕гр╕Фр╣Ар╕Бр╕ер╣Йр╕▓р╕п р╣Гр╕лр╣Йр╣Др╕Ыр╕ер╕Зр╣Гр╕Щр╕лр╕Щр╕▒р╕Зр╕кр╕╖р╕нр╕Юр╕┤р╕бр╕Юр╣М р╣Ар╕Юр╕гр╕▓р╕░р╕Йр╕░р╕Щр╕▒р╣Йр╕Щ р╣Ар╕гр╕▓р╕Бр╣Зр╣Ар╕Ыр╣Зр╕Щр╕Др╕Щр╣Ар╕Вр╣Йр╕▓р╣Др╕Ыр╕гр╣Ир╕зр╕бр╣Гр╕Щр╕Бр╕▓р╕гр╣Ар╕Эр╣Йр╕▓р╕п р╕Ир╕░р╕зр╣Ир╕▓р╣Ар╕гр╕▓р╕Щр╕│р╣Ар╕Вр╣Йр╕▓р╣Ар╕Вр╣Йр╕▓р╣Ар╕Эр╣Йр╕▓р╕пр╕Бр╣Зр╣Др╕бр╣Ир╕Цр╕╣р╕Б р╣Бр╕Хр╣Ир╕зр╣Ир╕▓р╣Ар╕гр╕▓р╣Др╕Ыр╕нр╕вр╕╣р╣Ир╣Гр╕Щр╕Чр╕╡р╣Ир╕Щр╕▒р╣Ир╕Щр╕Фр╣Йр╕зр╕в
р╣Ар╕Юр╕гр╕▓р╕░р╕Йр╕░р╕Щр╕▒р╣Йр╕Щ р╕Чр╕╡р╣Ир╕Др╕╕р╕Ур╕Чр╕▒р╕Бр╕йр╕┤р╕Ур╕Ър╕нр╕Бр╕зр╣Ир╕▓ р╣Ар╕гр╕▓р╣Ар╕Ыр╣Зр╕Щр╕Др╕Щр╕Чр╕╡р╣Ир╕Щр╕│ 3 р╕Др╕Щр╕Щр╕╡р╣Йр╣Др╕Ыр╣Ар╕Вр╣Йр╕▓р╣Ар╕Эр╣Йр╕▓р╕пр╕Юр╕гр╕░р╕Ър╕▓р╕Чр╕кр╕бр╣Ар╕Фр╣Зр╕Ир╕Юр╕гр╕░р╣Ар╕Ир╣Йр╕▓р╕нр╕вр╕╣р╣Ир╕лр╕▒р╕з р╕Бр╣Зр╣Ар╕Ыр╣Зр╕Щр╣Ар╕гр╕╖р╣Ир╕нр╕Зр╕Чр╕╡р╣Ир╣Др╕бр╣Ир╕Хр╕гр╕Зр╕Бр╕▒р╕Ър╕Вр╣Йр╕нр╣Ар╕Чр╣Зр╕Ир╕Ир╕гр╕┤р╕З р╣Ар╕Юр╕гр╕▓р╕░р╣Ар╕гр╕▓р╣Ар╕Вр╣Йр╕▓р╣Др╕Ыр╕Бр╣Ир╕нр╕Щ р╕Кр╕▒р╣Ир╕зр╣Вр╕бр╕Зр╕Бр╕зр╣Ир╕▓ р╣Бр╕ер╕░р╣Ар╕гр╕▓р╕Бр╣Зр╣Др╕бр╣Ир╕гр╕╣р╣Йр╕зр╣Ир╕▓ р╣Ар╕Вр╕▓р╕Ир╕░р╕бр╕▓р╕лр╕гр╕╖р╕нр╣Др╕бр╣Ир╕бр╕▓ р╣Ар╕гр╕▓р╕гр╕╣р╣Йр╕Бр╣Зр╕Хр╣Ир╕нр╣Ар╕бр╕╖р╣Ир╕нр╕Др╕╕р╕Ур╕кр╕Щр╕Шр╕┤р╣Ар╕Вр╣Йр╕▓р╣Др╕Ыр╕Бр╕▒р╕Ър╕Др╕╕р╕Ур╕Кр╕ер╕┤р╕Х р╣Др╕Ыр╣Ар╕Ир╕нр╣Ар╕гр╕▓р╣Гр╕Щр╕Юр╕гр╕░р╕гр╕▓р╕Кр╕зр╕▒р╕Зр╕кр╕зр╕Щр╕Ир╕┤р╕Хр╕гр╕ер╕Фр╕▓р╣Бр╕ер╣Йр╕з р╕Щр╕╡р╣Ир╕Др╕╖р╕нр╣Ар╕гр╕╖р╣Ир╕нр╕Зр╕Ир╕гр╕┤р╕Зр╣Ж р╕Чр╕╡р╣Ир╣Ар╕Бр╕┤р╕Фр╕Вр╕╢р╣Йр╕Щ
901, royal politics and Thaksin Shinawatra
Re: Khun dantampa #55
It thus appeares to confirm that the photo showing the junta leaders meeting with Prem, the King and Queen, was taken at least 6 hours before the coup was officially announced on Thai TV around 11 PM.
No, no. The full text of Prem’s talk is here (sorry, in Thai only), together with embeded record of his talk that you can listen:
http://www.innnews.co.th/politic.php?nid=164684
or you could download the voice clip directly here:
http://baygon3.no-ip.org/savefiles/prem_164684.mp3
Bangkok Post mis-translates the time
What Prem said is the following:
He arrived at the Palace shortly after 9 pm. (not 3 pm., he used the Thai words “3 thum” which means 21 o’clock) following the announcement of the coup.
He further claims that two generals/coup leaders arrived at the Palace around 11 pm. but the last one only arrived nearly midnight. “This proves that we [he oddly used the pronoun ‘we’ during most of this talk! – Somsak] didn’t bring them to the Jitladda Palace to have an audience with HM: we went by ourselve [as did they]”.
The photo was released shortly after the coup and it’s understood that it was taken around midnight, the time the coup leaders had an audience with HM King and Queen. Thaksin supporters always claim that the photo supports their theory that Prem was involved in the coup. I personally don’t think it does, but that doesn’t mean Prem’s involement isn’t true either.
901, royal politics and Thaksin Shinawatra
Apropos my post two days ago, questioning just when the palace photo was taken, showing General Prem, the King and Queen meeting with the coup leaders on September 19, Prem broke silence today and was quoted in the Bangkok Post as follows:
“Gen Prem also said he did not lead army commanders to see His Majesty the King on Sept 19, 2006, as alleged. He was already with the King at Chitralada Palace before they arrived.
The Privy Council president said that after hearing about the coup that day he went to the palace about 3 pm in case the King wanted to issue any special orders. The army commanders arrived later at the palace, about 5pm. He was not informed about their visit in advance.”
Prem’s statement appears to confirm that he had knowledge of the coup at least 6 hours before the first troops arrived in Bangkok after 9 PM, followed by a BBC news bulletin sometime after 10 PM, Bangkok time. It thus appeares to confirm that the photo showing the junta leaders meeting with Prem, the King and Queen, was taken at least 6 hours before the coup was officially announced on Thai TV around 11 PM.
That time line varies significantly with previous reports.
UDD – where to?
For anyone who can read Thai and might be interested: I’ve drawn an overall sketch of the evolution of the UDD movements since mid-December to the present. I divide it into two phases: the Radical Reds (mid-December to mid-March) and the ‘Attacking the so-called ‘a-mat-ta-ya-thip-pa-tai’, Profesting Loyalty to the Monarchy phase. Each has distinct themes of its own.
See : http://www.sameskybooks.org/board/index.php?showtopic=27720
Abhisit’s talk in Oxford: From the inside
…and I argue, more in the mould of an opportunistic Western politician with a complexly negotiated power base than the typical Thai ‘ThaoKae’…
Yes Sidh S, I agree.
Observing Thaksin, it seemed to me that although in the West a class of yeoman have evolved – Bushes, Clintons, Kerrys, and so forth – trustworthy servants of the plutocrats who can be relied upon to look after the interests of their employers, and who will essentially work for wages, that in Thailand there had not yet evolved such a class. So the plutocrats had to roll up their sleeves and actually do the work themselves.
Or perhaps Thaksin just traveled in the wrong circles and didn’t know any of the young Oxonians who “could be had”. Or perhaps, knowing how intrinsically untrustworthy he is himself, he could not bring himself to trust such of those folks as he did know.
Whatever the case with Thaksin Abhisit does seem a sterling, reliable retainer for the sociopathic plutocrats. He is not even ruffled when they make a fool of him by feeding him lines both they and he must know are going to be contradicted immediately in action. He is a real professional.
Debate on lese majeste
The Bangkok Post is shocked! and outraged! that freedom of speech and thought are being trampled on… elsewhere.
UN votes for censorship
It is no surprise that a group which includes countries that flaunt their disgust for human rights would trample on freedom of speech and thought. But it is worrying that such a prohibition should gain international currency without stronger opposition. As they always do, the supporters of a foul-smelling package wrapped it up in perfumed paper.
Their headband may read “Press” but their coattails read “Kick Me!”.
In the supreme act of self-parody they include a cartoon burlesquing themselves.
“Australian ladyboy sex tourist”
About the first line
Well, if that heading doesn’t give us a Google boost, nothing will! .
I actually found this post by searching Google for Australian same sex visas, while doing a research for a site I deal with. A lot of prospective travelers might visit this blog 🙂
Abhisit’s talk in Oxford: From the inside
I’ve lived in Thailand as a foreign correspondent for 27 years. Hua Hin Dave is correct in his overall analysis of the situation. The current coalition is more transparent and more democratically oriented in every way.
Hua Hin Dave forgot to add how Thaksin would have responded to such questions.
a) Hold up a card with an ‘X’ on it, signifying he didn’t like the question, and would not answer it.
b) (addressing everyone in the crowd except the questioner) ‘Don’t listen to what outsiders say.’
c) ‘Trust me. I have a Civil Service Reform active that will make out country run more efficiently without interference from the legistlative or judicial branches,’
The fate of Suwicha Thakhor
Could the United Nations Human Rights Council get involve in solving the tension between the two opposing forces, those who want the lese majeste law to be abolished and those who prefer to keep them? It is clear that no solution could be found without outside intervention.
Ban-Ki moon, the UN Secretary General points out that it is the responsibility of the United Nations Human Rights Council to remind States of their responsibility to fully respect and implement all human rights and fundamental freedoms.
How can the UN Human Rights Council play a role to promote and protect human rights in the darkest corners of the world like the case of less majeste law in Thailand?
901, royal politics and Thaksin Shinawatra
Here’s the whole quote, from the Matichon transcript (I haven’t watched the video).
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“Today there was news that the international terrorist who is foreign minister will take back my passport. Come on. A passport costs a thousand baht plus. Take it. But you cannot take from me the heart of a Thai. Today, brothers and sisters, there’s no need to worry about me. I’ll survive. But I worry about you. If there is the sound of gunfire, of soldiers shooting the people, I’ll return immediately to lead you to march on Bangkok. I can no longer accept such dictatorship. Brothers and sisters in the army and police, we are all Thai flesh and blood, all love the King and Queen the same as you, as Thais. But there are some people trying to monopolize [? power] to your disadvantage… I want to say that this is one of the most important occasions for us to change the country to a true democracy, to abolish authoritarianism from the country. Brothers, sisters, and friends in the bureaucracy, today many of you are afraid because you are threatened or sometimes transferred. Today you must be as neutral as you can until a neutral government is in place. Please uphold the dignity of the country by coming to join our movement.”
901, royal politics and Thaksin Shinawatra
Somsak #40. I think you’re right.
I wonder if Somsak or anyone else would like to comment on Thaksin’s use of the phrase р╣Ар╕кр╕╡р╕вр╕Зр╕Ыр╕╖р╕Щр╣Бр╕Хр╕Б (sound of gunfire) in his speech last night. He doesn’t know what it ‘means’? He knows exactly?
р╕Цр╣Йр╕▓р╣Ар╕бр╕╖р╣Ир╕нр╣Др╕лр╕гр╣Ир╣Ар╕кр╕╡р╕вр╕Зр╕Ыр╕╖р╕Щр╣Бр╕Хр╕Б р╕Чр╕лр╕▓р╕гр╕вр╕┤р╕Зр╕Ыр╕гр╕░р╕Кр╕▓р╕Кр╕Щ р╕Ьр╕бр╕Ир╕░р╣Ар╕Вр╣Йр╕▓р╣Др╕Ыр╕Щр╕│р╕Юр╕╡р╣Ир╕Щр╣Йр╕нр╕Зр╣Ар╕Фр╕┤р╕Щр╣Ар╕Вр╣Йр╕▓р╕Бр╕гр╕╕р╕Зр╣Ар╕Чр╕Юр╕пр╕Чр╕▒р╕Щр╕Чр╕╡
The fate of Suwicha Thakhor
This simply shows that Thailand still belongs to the Dark Ages, from which Europe was freed about 500 years ago. It seems that Thailand is also unique in ASEAN.