Taro Mongkoltip seems to think that if those who oppose the LM law and event the monarchy had a little more of the royalist propaganda they’d understand. And if they don’t, lock ’em up. Better build bigger jails, because the political actions of the group you support are creating a situation where more an more Thais will have to be locked up.
The idea that if the U.S. does reprehensible things, then Thailand should also be able to do them and escape criticism is rather quaint. The Guantanamo experience has been the the subject of considerable academic and media criticism. That kind of debate is not possible in Thailand regarding LM.
The most widely promoted reform of the LM law, as far as I can determine from the press accounts I have read, is the “Legal Standing” reform. In it, only the party being defamed can file the charges, not a “disinterested” third party.
This reform seems modest and, even within the logic of the advocates of LM, reasonable.
So, let me put it to the people who want the Royal Family protected by this law: What is wrong with requiring that the complainant have “legal standing”? Why NOT insure that only those people who have been slandered or defamed be given the authority to file the charges?
Some irony about the Prachatai raid incedent, on the very same day Mr.PM stated in a media conference about media freedom. I can’t help but feel like watching a soap opera, there’re always some plays good guys, and some plays bad guys. The PM’s part was surely the good guy. While somebody (the dep.PM, Suthep I guess) played the bad guys raiding Prachatai and scared the sh_t out of everyone. Similar scenario was when Suthep did the backdoor talk in the military barrack about the coalition formation under a “special” guidance of the army in chief. While the oxford guy played “innocent” role, completely unaware of what was happening in the barrack. They’re sure a good producer for soap operas after their political stepdown. People always love watching soap operas, most of Thais do.
Blather and blog? I see Fred blathering on this blog quite often… does this mean he went to an Ivy League university (the graduates of which, it should be pointed out, are not universally bright, talented, or even interesting).
I believe the aim of the police is not to prosecute Khun Jiranut or any of the Prachatai staff for violation of the Computer Law. That wouldn’t hold up in the legal process. Besides, if that were their aim, they could have simply issued a summon. It’s the information on Prachatai’s computers they’re after. Only with such sudden raid can they get hold of computers and hard disks.
At the moment, what the government and security agencies are most interested in, is the (alledged) “kha-buan-kan” to overthrow the monarchy which they apparently belive to exist.
Academics have been investigated for lèse majesté for even questioning the role of the monarchy in Thai society. In 2007, Assistant Professor Boonsong Chaisingkananon of Silpakorn University was investigated for lèse majesté for asking students in an exam if the institution of the monarchy was necessary for Thai society and how it may be reformed to be consistent with the democratic system. The University cooperated with the police investigation, and even turned over students’ answer sheets and the marks the professor gave them.
And to think, in another two weeks or so, in the middle of Bangkok, the Asia Media Conclave will bring prominent journalists from all over Asia and the world to Bangkok (March 25-27 – Kavi Chongkittavorn from the NATION and I believe a PAD supporter is the Thailand Coordinator) to discuss such weighty issues as Freedom of the Press, Democratization, Human Rights, etc.
According to the Press Release:
“The Asia Media Conclave-09 will be an exciting opportunity for media practitioners, civil society activists and academics to interact with each other and contribute to discourse and proposal to address the ongoing crisis……………………….”
A couple of years back I went to the National Museum in BKK. I spent the whole day there and as I am very interested in history I tried to follow the presentation very closely. Something struck me as odd as the history of Thailand seemed to end in the beginning of the 1930’s and resumed in the 1950’s. Very little information was given for this time period. Later I found out why and read more about this controversial time in Thai history.
The only way to fully grow up as a nation is to understand your own history. By blocking information, limiting access to sources, suppressing ideas and thoughts, the mistakes, twists and turns that happened in the past and have led to misery and suffering are likely to happen again. History repeats itself.
This includes the history of the Thai Monarchy.
So, being able to openly discuss and research past, present and future – also the monarchy and it’s role in Thai society- is the fundamental condition to improve as a nation.
Thailand urgently needs to develop a culture of discussion and discourse, of being able to criticize and accept criticism as a way for improvement. Today Thais regard criticism as an insult, a way to loose face. But if you do not discuss (and then also criticize), how to improve, how to change, how to grow??
As we do here, we discuss: We exchange arguments, views, opinions, sources, texts to understand better, to gain knowledge and to stimulate personal (and in the end cultural) growth.
Regarding the call to reform the les majeste law:
a) The Law is being abused (as admitted by PM Abhisit and others)
b) The King himself asked in his birthday speech of December 2005 to be criticized, as he is also just a human being
My opinion:
The law is not about protecting the king anymore, it is a ball in the hand of anybody who wants to silence any opposition to the dominion in power.
Giles said of the King: “He has made statements where he says too much welfare makes people lazy. Well fine, you can have that opinion, but not if you’re head of state”
I am having difficulty understanding why a head of state cannot make such statements???
Obviously context would be important, by why shouldn’t a head of state be able to give others the benefit of his wisdom?
(IMO at face value, the message he gave in this example is wise because too much means too much)
My discussion is based on the hard facts only, others are considered as speculations. The letter deliberately stated their concerns and suggestions for amendment. Any one (you included) can make speculations about the motivations behind their actions, which is impossible for anyone to prove it. So there’s no point to discuss speculations, but you have all the rights to speculate things. That’s why I support the main agenda of the letter, the draconian law must be amended to prevent further abuses for political purposes.
As you said”I forgot to tell you one thing. The king has actually open for criticism. If you have followed the news about this, you would have known that.” So why don’t you and all the authority follow HM speech. Don’t you think that without the oppressed law, you yourself feel more easy to openly argue with others. Don’t you realise you too need to be extremely careful about your comments, isn’t it because you too are subjected to the same draconian law.
“.. the use of the severe lese-majeste law has provoked widespread condemnation around the world, and a campaign by academics to have the law changed.
By instead invoking the new computer crimes law – passed just 18 months ago – the authorities may be hoping to stifle debate about the monarchy without stirring up another outcry over freedom of expression in Thailand.”
Susan Upton’s bizarre and in my view rather silly comment on the elitist Oxford venue and the class background of the Thai audience (how on earth does she know?) reflects more perhaps on a particularly British sensibility about class.Of course Oxford is an elite institution and Giles was quite right to speak there, along with the meetings at Cambridge and UCL.
It’s hard to imagine a commentator from similar “elite” universities in the US or Australia making such a foolish comment.
Ananda Mahidol’s death was directly related to the word “Democracy”
and the Lese Majeste Law was exactly intertwined with the death.
Scholars attempt to discuss about political development, freedom of expression, and modernization of the developing country. But the law was created because of Ananda Mahidol’s death. There is something important to hide, so the 24/7 monarchy diverting team needs to divert attention to something else unrelated to the topic.
As you said “But I believe the aim of the raid is much wider: to “uncover” persons belonged to such alledged movement or links to such persons and “movement”.
Would you kindly give me more in details, because I’m not quite sure I get the message exactly the way you want to convey.
Giles is a leader who knows the way, goes the way, and show the way. People understand him more everyday inside Thailand and across the world. He plays big, doesn’t he? With a strong team, he will keep the legacy and tradition of the Victor.
Giles Ungpakorn pledges his heart to larger service. Just like his dad, he undertakes difficult tasks which must be made to work because the consequences of its failure to work would be so disastrous. The Allied Forces has a passionate desire to prevent war. That’s why they embark on serious critical and analytical thought about international problems in order to shape the contour of the chess game toward international stability.
It cannot go any other ways. It can only go this way.
Your analysis is correct Somsak that this is a move to frighten people. Thailand can’t keep the internet out and debate will go on. Thailand’s reputation is continuing to deterioate.
Who is behind this? Does anyone know?
Lese Majeste is only a crime in Thailand. It is time for us to come into the modern age. No one is beyond criticism as our king said on his birthday.
What will we do if we have a king in the future that is incompetent?
I understand that at the moment the Thai security agencies which involve both the military, and the police, and with knowledge/approval of the current government (at least of the PM and his deputy in charge of national security, Suthep) are operating under the assumption that there is a “movement” (ka-buan-kan) to overthrow the monarchy. It is almost certain – some documents were leaked – that a meeting of security agencies was held earlier January to discuss this very issue and measures were adopted to counter such alledged “movement”, including, I believe, both repressive and “psychological” measures. The raid at Prachatai could be part of this. Since, in the end the case against Khun Jiranut couldn’t possibly be held up in court. Article 15 of the Computer Law specifies that the webmaster could be punished only if it is proven that he/she intentionally supports or encourages unacceptable postings, which Khun Jiranut or Prachatai definitely does not. But I believe the aim of the raid is much wider: to “uncover” persons belonged to such alledged movement or links to such persons and “movement”.
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Lese majeste: Abhisit responds … briefly
ABHISIT: “Yeah! I’ll discuss lese majeste law briefly, maybe next week….if I have time.”
Who do you think you’re kidding Mr Prime Minister? You’ll discuss this now, and at length, before the whole world laughs at your king.
Got it?
International scholars call for reform of Thailand’s lese majeste law
Taro Mongkoltip seems to think that if those who oppose the LM law and event the monarchy had a little more of the royalist propaganda they’d understand. And if they don’t, lock ’em up. Better build bigger jails, because the political actions of the group you support are creating a situation where more an more Thais will have to be locked up.
The idea that if the U.S. does reprehensible things, then Thailand should also be able to do them and escape criticism is rather quaint. The Guantanamo experience has been the the subject of considerable academic and media criticism. That kind of debate is not possible in Thailand regarding LM.
“Nothing wrong with the lese majeste law”
jofernquest clearly is ignoring the vigorous debate that has taken place over, say, the coup and PAD in this very blog. Why?
“Nothing wrong with the lese majeste law”
The most widely promoted reform of the LM law, as far as I can determine from the press accounts I have read, is the “Legal Standing” reform. In it, only the party being defamed can file the charges, not a “disinterested” third party.
This reform seems modest and, even within the logic of the advocates of LM, reasonable.
So, let me put it to the people who want the Royal Family protected by this law: What is wrong with requiring that the complainant have “legal standing”? Why NOT insure that only those people who have been slandered or defamed be given the authority to file the charges?
Crackdown on Prachatai
Some irony about the Prachatai raid incedent, on the very same day Mr.PM stated in a media conference about media freedom. I can’t help but feel like watching a soap opera, there’re always some plays good guys, and some plays bad guys. The PM’s part was surely the good guy. While somebody (the dep.PM, Suthep I guess) played the bad guys raiding Prachatai and scared the sh_t out of everyone. Similar scenario was when Suthep did the backdoor talk in the military barrack about the coalition formation under a “special” guidance of the army in chief. While the oxford guy played “innocent” role, completely unaware of what was happening in the barrack. They’re sure a good producer for soap operas after their political stepdown. People always love watching soap operas, most of Thais do.
Positions teaching “the future king of Thailand”
Blather and blog? I see Fred blathering on this blog quite often… does this mean he went to an Ivy League university (the graduates of which, it should be pointed out, are not universally bright, talented, or even interesting).
Crackdown on Prachatai
I believe the aim of the police is not to prosecute Khun Jiranut or any of the Prachatai staff for violation of the Computer Law. That wouldn’t hold up in the legal process. Besides, if that were their aim, they could have simply issued a summon. It’s the information on Prachatai’s computers they’re after. Only with such sudden raid can they get hold of computers and hard disks.
At the moment, what the government and security agencies are most interested in, is the (alledged) “kha-buan-kan” to overthrow the monarchy which they apparently belive to exist.
International scholars call for reform of Thailand’s lese majeste law
Academics have been investigated for lèse majesté for even questioning the role of the monarchy in Thai society. In 2007, Assistant Professor Boonsong Chaisingkananon of Silpakorn University was investigated for lèse majesté for asking students in an exam if the institution of the monarchy was necessary for Thai society and how it may be reformed to be consistent with the democratic system. The University cooperated with the police investigation, and even turned over students’ answer sheets and the marks the professor gave them.
Crackdown on Prachatai
And to think, in another two weeks or so, in the middle of Bangkok, the Asia Media Conclave will bring prominent journalists from all over Asia and the world to Bangkok (March 25-27 – Kavi Chongkittavorn from the NATION and I believe a PAD supporter is the Thailand Coordinator) to discuss such weighty issues as Freedom of the Press, Democratization, Human Rights, etc.
According to the Press Release:
“The Asia Media Conclave-09 will be an exciting opportunity for media practitioners, civil society activists and academics to interact with each other and contribute to discourse and proposal to address the ongoing crisis……………………….”
http://theasiamediaforum.org/files/Asia%20Media%20Conclave%202009.pdf
http://theasiamediaforum.org/node/992
International scholars call for reform of Thailand’s lese majeste law
Knowledge is the only way!
A couple of years back I went to the National Museum in BKK. I spent the whole day there and as I am very interested in history I tried to follow the presentation very closely. Something struck me as odd as the history of Thailand seemed to end in the beginning of the 1930’s and resumed in the 1950’s. Very little information was given for this time period. Later I found out why and read more about this controversial time in Thai history.
The only way to fully grow up as a nation is to understand your own history. By blocking information, limiting access to sources, suppressing ideas and thoughts, the mistakes, twists and turns that happened in the past and have led to misery and suffering are likely to happen again. History repeats itself.
This includes the history of the Thai Monarchy.
So, being able to openly discuss and research past, present and future – also the monarchy and it’s role in Thai society- is the fundamental condition to improve as a nation.
Thailand urgently needs to develop a culture of discussion and discourse, of being able to criticize and accept criticism as a way for improvement. Today Thais regard criticism as an insult, a way to loose face. But if you do not discuss (and then also criticize), how to improve, how to change, how to grow??
As we do here, we discuss: We exchange arguments, views, opinions, sources, texts to understand better, to gain knowledge and to stimulate personal (and in the end cultural) growth.
Regarding the call to reform the les majeste law:
a) The Law is being abused (as admitted by PM Abhisit and others)
b) The King himself asked in his birthday speech of December 2005 to be criticized, as he is also just a human being
My opinion:
The law is not about protecting the king anymore, it is a ball in the hand of anybody who wants to silence any opposition to the dominion in power.
Further details on Giles’ Oxford talk
Giles said of the King: “He has made statements where he says too much welfare makes people lazy. Well fine, you can have that opinion, but not if you’re head of state”
I am having difficulty understanding why a head of state cannot make such statements???
Obviously context would be important, by why shouldn’t a head of state be able to give others the benefit of his wisdom?
(IMO at face value, the message he gave in this example is wise because too much means too much)
Crackdown on Prachatai
Are you absolutely sure the dual-headlines picture come from Nation, alas not NotTheNation?
International scholars call for reform of Thailand’s lese majeste law
Taro Mongkoltip
My discussion is based on the hard facts only, others are considered as speculations. The letter deliberately stated their concerns and suggestions for amendment. Any one (you included) can make speculations about the motivations behind their actions, which is impossible for anyone to prove it. So there’s no point to discuss speculations, but you have all the rights to speculate things. That’s why I support the main agenda of the letter, the draconian law must be amended to prevent further abuses for political purposes.
As you said”I forgot to tell you one thing. The king has actually open for criticism. If you have followed the news about this, you would have known that.” So why don’t you and all the authority follow HM speech. Don’t you think that without the oppressed law, you yourself feel more easy to openly argue with others. Don’t you realise you too need to be extremely careful about your comments, isn’t it because you too are subjected to the same draconian law.
Crackdown on Prachatai
Here’s BBC news comment:
“.. the use of the severe lese-majeste law has provoked widespread condemnation around the world, and a campaign by academics to have the law changed.
By instead invoking the new computer crimes law – passed just 18 months ago – the authorities may be hoping to stifle debate about the monarchy without stirring up another outcry over freedom of expression in Thailand.”
Further details on Giles’ Oxford talk
Susan Upton’s bizarre and in my view rather silly comment on the elitist Oxford venue and the class background of the Thai audience (how on earth does she know?) reflects more perhaps on a particularly British sensibility about class.Of course Oxford is an elite institution and Giles was quite right to speak there, along with the meetings at Cambridge and UCL.
It’s hard to imagine a commentator from similar “elite” universities in the US or Australia making such a foolish comment.
Report on “Lèse Majesté in Thailand: The Enemy of Democracy”
“Lese Majeste Law: The Enemy of Democracy”
Ananda Mahidol’s death was directly related to the word “Democracy”
and the Lese Majeste Law was exactly intertwined with the death.
Scholars attempt to discuss about political development, freedom of expression, and modernization of the developing country. But the law was created because of Ananda Mahidol’s death. There is something important to hide, so the 24/7 monarchy diverting team needs to divert attention to something else unrelated to the topic.
Crackdown on Prachatai
Somsak Jeamteerasakul
As you said “But I believe the aim of the raid is much wider: to “uncover” persons belonged to such alledged movement or links to such persons and “movement”.
Would you kindly give me more in details, because I’m not quite sure I get the message exactly the way you want to convey.
Further details on Giles’ Oxford talk
Giles is a leader who knows the way, goes the way, and show the way. People understand him more everyday inside Thailand and across the world. He plays big, doesn’t he? With a strong team, he will keep the legacy and tradition of the Victor.
Giles Ungpakorn pledges his heart to larger service. Just like his dad, he undertakes difficult tasks which must be made to work because the consequences of its failure to work would be so disastrous. The Allied Forces has a passionate desire to prevent war. That’s why they embark on serious critical and analytical thought about international problems in order to shape the contour of the chess game toward international stability.
It cannot go any other ways. It can only go this way.
Crackdown on Prachatai
Your analysis is correct Somsak that this is a move to frighten people. Thailand can’t keep the internet out and debate will go on. Thailand’s reputation is continuing to deterioate.
Who is behind this? Does anyone know?
Lese Majeste is only a crime in Thailand. It is time for us to come into the modern age. No one is beyond criticism as our king said on his birthday.
What will we do if we have a king in the future that is incompetent?
Crackdown on Prachatai
I understand that at the moment the Thai security agencies which involve both the military, and the police, and with knowledge/approval of the current government (at least of the PM and his deputy in charge of national security, Suthep) are operating under the assumption that there is a “movement” (ka-buan-kan) to overthrow the monarchy. It is almost certain – some documents were leaked – that a meeting of security agencies was held earlier January to discuss this very issue and measures were adopted to counter such alledged “movement”, including, I believe, both repressive and “psychological” measures. The raid at Prachatai could be part of this. Since, in the end the case against Khun Jiranut couldn’t possibly be held up in court. Article 15 of the Computer Law specifies that the webmaster could be punished only if it is proven that he/she intentionally supports or encourages unacceptable postings, which Khun Jiranut or Prachatai definitely does not. But I believe the aim of the raid is much wider: to “uncover” persons belonged to such alledged movement or links to such persons and “movement”.