This is disgraceful. One wonders if this is what they will be doing to expediently avoid pressing lese majeste charges. It’s an outrageous law.
PLEASE SUPPORT PRACHATHAI!
Lek Sydney, you mean the law should not be reformed? do u support the repeal of LM law altogether, or do u prefer to keep it the way it is now without any changes? Look forward to yr clarification and thanks!
Observer “The only “sense” Thai authorities have in the lese majeste case may have nothing to do with justice.” I agree with that. What I meant by sense was that everybody benefits from the pardon. Harry’s free. The Thai authority and the palace get what they want.
I’ve never seen any Thai accused of LM get a royal pardon. Like you said, pardons to Thais would send an entirely different message domestically. So all the Thais can be expected to be prosecuted to the full extent of the law.
Thanks Joy, at last we come to the very practical point that how should LM be reformed?
Susie might give us one of the most practical idea (we all know this fact actually) that there is a lot of resistance from the political power body in order to protect their power. But she again keen to move our interest to the PAD and its leader that are not really give any benefit for intellectual discussion here. That should be abandon in the academic forum that I am not sure whether she understand.
The international scholars signed for recall the transform the LM is a good sign that how should real academic do, whereas Giles done the opposite with his manifesto and activity ( I am sorry to bring back to Giles a bit but it is necessary to show the contrast between good academic discussion and just non-realistic, non beneficial one side announcement).
Actually, recommendation about who can accuse for LM is not new and has been discussed in a limited group of interest for a while.
Although the oxonian PM said that he plan to talk with commander of the national police about compulsion of this law and find out what the law underline this, we are not expecting that his talk will make anything change quickly and so far abolish or elimination of this laws is quite impossible as he convince.
Wide spread interest and more understanding of political mechanism underline this laws will bring heavy pressure to the power body to aware of use it for their own interest and this is the job of academics to discuss and disseminate true understanding to the community to stop abusive use of this laws in an acedmic style which is obviously not that siam red manifesto style.
Some irony about the Thaksin loathers. I can’t help but noticed that these T loathers kept saying the necessity of UHC system, but never give a credit to the one who implimented it in the first place. I know you guys , are doctors , so you must be well aware that the idea of UHC came from some experts in the public health ministry years ago. It was first propose to the Dem government at that time( around 1997) , but PM Chuan turned down the proposal. So they kept it to themselves, and sold the idea again to Thaksin who’s smart enough to bought it and turn it to a propaganda for the election in 2001.
I’m not Mr. T supporter, but also would like to be realistic about things we’re discussing.
“Secondly, there is nothing wrong with anyone criticising the monarchy in a constructive or academic way. The Thai King is open-minded enough to listen to opinions. The foundation of the monarchy is strong enough to withstand criticism. His Majesty has even said, “The King can do wrong”. Since the King practices the “10 Virtues of Kings”, he would only do anything wrong unintentionally.”
Thanong surely must be an intellectual joke (and extremely disingenuous) — but a highly educated and paid one…
Quote :”… Given that Andrew Walker and Nicholas are given to making wisecracks about the monarchy on their blog, which seems to actively encourage anti-monarchy sentiment, how could anyone take this petition seriously? ..”
Are u serious? I suppose everyone here (except u) is taking this petition letter very seriously. As a Thai, I’m very grateful that there is such a petition. If u dislike it, can’t u voice yr opinion in a more convincing way rather than belittling , mocking and making fun of the efforts by people who genuinely try to make Thailand more democratic?
There was no “clear intent to maim and kill”. This line of argumentation is lacking logic, and is not supported by fact. If police that day would have intended to kill protesters, why use teargas, and not guns? Fact is that police that day has not fired a gun, not one PAD protester was injured by gunfire. It is though proven beyond doubt that some PAD protesters had a clear intent to maim and kill – three police officers were shot, one stabbed through the chest, and several run down by a purposely aimed pick up truck.
That PAD protesters have been maimed by teargas (and maybe killed, if the initial investigation is correct) has been a massive screw up by police, resulting from lack of training and experience, but especially resulting from weapons procurement problems and budgeting. But this does not equal intent.
What also has to be pointed out, that police has asked Democrat led BMA for water throwers, a request that was refused on the grounds of that the water was not clean enough and could have led to health problems under the protesters.
One of the two PAD protesters killed that day was indeed a “hardcore” PAD guard – a former Police officer who has led the Buriram guards. And what led to his death is rather clear beyond reasonable doubt – he was killed by his own explosives.
“Adoring Farang Thaksinistas” – Absolute rubbish. People you accuse of this, such as me, have been running around during the terrible first two months in the drug war, capturing images, and trying to raise awareness of the killings. Unfortunately at the time the world was so interested in the beginning Iraq war that there was hardly any space in the international media for Thailand’s drug war killings. Which frustrated me endlessly. For more than 6 months after the drug war i stopped taking photos, because nothing i tried to do then made any difference whatsoever. At the time there was unfortunately not the option to present alternative views through New Mandala, and i was not aware of any similar website where i could have done that.
May i remind you that many of us journalists did not suddenly start working when Thailand’s political problems began in 2005. We have also done critical reporting before, and during the Thaksin administration.
What many do forget here is that there was hardly any public protest against the killings, and PAD’s main leaders – Sondhi Limthongkul and Chamlong Srimuang – have at the time still been staunch Thaksin supporters. The drug war killings were clearly not an incentive for the formation of the PAD.
It appears to me, that many Farang supporters of the PAD confuse the issues. The drug war killings were then, and Oct. the 7th was a completely different scenario. Each has to be looked at separately, and factually.
Although I have read Giles’ A Coup for the Rich, his red manifesto and his 1996(?) book abt the 1992 coup, I haven’t got a chance to listen his whole talk in Oxford . I just finish reading part III of the document. I think it is really a great talk and I truly admire the way Giles responded to a number of hysterical attacks directed at him. While the majority of the Thai audience seemed to be very hostile towards Giles, I think many other Thais who didn’t attend that talk (both in Thailand and overseas) sympathize with Giles’s political view and admire his courage. I , for one, give my full support to him and I’m grateful for what he and his family have done for ordinary Thais who have been forced to endure status quo for so long.Also thanks to Susie Wong for providing us with background of Giles and his family.
Good reminder about Khun Thongchai. As to his sensitivities and judgment, I have to add my admiration and support. When I recently volunteered to have my name added to that list, he replied that being in Thailand I should think the decision over carefully, and either way he would accommodate my wishes.
This is the kind of common sense very much missing in Thailand for some time. When people fall over themselves to shackle and handcuff others whose ideas and spoken opinions they do not like, and support a society that thinks this is proper, then Thongchai stands out head above those who think freedom is only there for people who comply and pretend to be happy.
What I find ironic, and a bit hypocritical, is that the Thais who always tell foreigners to shut up and get out are usually the first to accept accolades and awards from foreigners. For example, when the king receives an award for this or that accomplishment, the royalists are the first to jump and down and scream about how much the world loves the king. Put simply, the royalists love the foreigners when it is all praise, hate the foreigners when there is a whiff of criticism. That seems like an infantile knee jerk response to me. Also, another thing I find hypocritical about the royalist academics and media is that during the course of their work they criticize foreign countries and foreigners all the time. I think it is hilarious that Khun Taro goes on a rant about foreigners criticizing Thailand then has the audacity to criticize the US, as if nobody in the history of Thailand(or anywhere else) has ever criticized the US. It happens all the time. All countries get criticized and lambasted by academic and reporters, regardless of the race, continent or culture. Thais need to grow up. If Thai people have the right to criticize George Bush, Gordon Brown, the heads of other states, the heads of other governments, then foreigners have the right to comment on Thailand’s affairs. The knee jerk royalists need to wake up and get over their notion of Thai exceptionalism and their hypocritical notion of “do as I say, not do as I do.”
Is lese majeste a popular law? Answer that question first
That’s the wrong question, Jon – it should be is the LM law fair (just), or more precisely: Iis it’s implementation fair (just)?
I’m not in favour of outright abolition of the law, but blind freddy can see it definitely needs changing.
Even though I’m a non-academic nobody, (so my opinion is worthless), I fully agree with the 3 points listed in the above article (letter).
I would like to say something about Giles Ji Ungpakorn’s background.
Giles’ father, Dr. Puey Ungpakorn was a Major in the British Army during World War II. He worked with Siam Statesman Dr. Pridi Banomyong and The Earl Moutbatten of Burma in the British Airborne Mission to set a Sea-Line-of-Communication for the Allied Forces inside Thailand. Japan occupied Thailand at the time, Giles’ father parachuted down in the midst of danger. He got caught and was put in the police jail. However, the secret Siamese underground movement inside the police assisted Giles’ father. Dr. Puey successfully accomplished the mission for the Allied forces air power to bomb the Axis inside Thailand. It was Giles’ father plea to the Allied Forces that had saved the Palace from being bombed.
Dr. Pridi Banomyong was the brain of the coup d’etat that ended the absolute monarchy. Prachatipok (king rama 7) traveled to Japan and made a military alliance with Japan, so Pridi staged a successful coup d’etat that put the monarchy under the constitution so that the monarchy can no longer make a war decision without consulting the country. The monarchy’s ethnic was originally Arab immigrant, while Pridi’s ethnic was Chinese who would not ally with the Japanese.
The Earl Moutbatten of Burma (Prince Charles’ uncle) was the Supreme Command of the Allied Forces for Southeast Asia.
At the end of the war, the Allied Forces wanted Giles’ father to lead the country but he declined because he had sworn not to take any reward from undertaking the mission. I wish Giles’ father had lead the country, Siam would have been a very different society.
Giles has a few cousins in the current government. I think the current Finance Minister Korn Jatikavanij is also his cousin. Korn’s mother is Giles’ aunt. Giles’ uncle is the owner of one of the biggest bank in Thailand and also one of the main finance sponsor of the current government party.
Giles truly loves the country. He can speak with the elites or with the mass and they all trust him. Only the Axis attacks him because he has a tremendous potential to deter the Axis in the post-Cold War strategic landscape.
Let me remind some Thai readers here about Prof. Thongchai Winichakul. He was the one of Thammasat student, activist, who in 1976, stood against the brutal right-wing military , trying to protect our democracy with the cost of his freedom and lives of many of his friend activists. I think only a few Thais had this credentials. So please think twice before ranting out something irrelevant. He deserves every right as a Thai to concern about his country.
No problems Suzie sorry if i have misunderstood. I once was a moderator on a thai forum that brought this issue to my attention. I too oppose such tyranny and am appalled at not only how the Thai monarchy treats foreigners, but also how they treat their own people. Thus i put my real name to articles opposing such tyranny. I am extremely glad Harry is home now, he lives not to far from me, and i wish him all the best. I am appalled at not only his and the treatment of Thais pertaining to Lese majeste to the point i have written numerous times about the issue on my blog , as well as in news sites…
Thanks for the response clearing up your position ..
I am a foreignor who speaks Thai. Here in my country, there are many Thais, male and female. Most of the females are married to men of my country. I have been following the turmol in Thailand for a couple of years. One thing that I saw on my satellite TV was the Queen attending the fumiral of one of the Yellow Shirts, led by Sunthith Lintongkun, that was killed during the disturbance. Few people in my country like Sunthith. When the word got around that the queen attended that funeral, there was furor amongst the Thais here. They were saddened and very sorry she would get involved with such a person as Sonthith. Next rumors started flying. Some such rumors were the Queen may be behind some of the disturbance in the country. Other rumors are that she wants to ensure that the Crown Prince will become king after His Majesty the King is gone. It seems that none of the Thais here like the Crown Prince, but everyone loves and respects the king. I am one that respects the king.
What I would like to know, if you are allowed to tell me, “Are any of the rumor true? Why was the queen at that funeral?”
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Crackdown on Prachatai
This is disgraceful. One wonders if this is what they will be doing to expediently avoid pressing lese majeste charges. It’s an outrageous law.
PLEASE SUPPORT PRACHATHAI!
Report on “Lèse Majesté in Thailand: The Enemy of Democracy”
Lek Sydney, you mean the law should not be reformed? do u support the repeal of LM law altogether, or do u prefer to keep it the way it is now without any changes? Look forward to yr clarification and thanks!
Corrections Department recommends pardon
Observer “The only “sense” Thai authorities have in the lese majeste case may have nothing to do with justice.” I agree with that. What I meant by sense was that everybody benefits from the pardon. Harry’s free. The Thai authority and the palace get what they want.
I’ve never seen any Thai accused of LM get a royal pardon. Like you said, pardons to Thais would send an entirely different message domestically. So all the Thais can be expected to be prosecuted to the full extent of the law.
Report on “Lèse Majesté in Thailand: The Enemy of Democracy”
Thanks Joy, at last we come to the very practical point that how should LM be reformed?
Susie might give us one of the most practical idea (we all know this fact actually) that there is a lot of resistance from the political power body in order to protect their power. But she again keen to move our interest to the PAD and its leader that are not really give any benefit for intellectual discussion here. That should be abandon in the academic forum that I am not sure whether she understand.
The international scholars signed for recall the transform the LM is a good sign that how should real academic do, whereas Giles done the opposite with his manifesto and activity ( I am sorry to bring back to Giles a bit but it is necessary to show the contrast between good academic discussion and just non-realistic, non beneficial one side announcement).
Actually, recommendation about who can accuse for LM is not new and has been discussed in a limited group of interest for a while.
Although the oxonian PM said that he plan to talk with commander of the national police about compulsion of this law and find out what the law underline this, we are not expecting that his talk will make anything change quickly and so far abolish or elimination of this laws is quite impossible as he convince.
Wide spread interest and more understanding of political mechanism underline this laws will bring heavy pressure to the power body to aware of use it for their own interest and this is the job of academics to discuss and disseminate true understanding to the community to stop abusive use of this laws in an acedmic style which is obviously not that siam red manifesto style.
Report on “Lèse Majesté in Thailand: The Enemy of Democracy”
Some irony about the Thaksin loathers. I can’t help but noticed that these T loathers kept saying the necessity of UHC system, but never give a credit to the one who implimented it in the first place. I know you guys , are doctors , so you must be well aware that the idea of UHC came from some experts in the public health ministry years ago. It was first propose to the Dem government at that time( around 1997) , but PM Chuan turned down the proposal. So they kept it to themselves, and sold the idea again to Thaksin who’s smart enough to bought it and turn it to a propaganda for the election in 2001.
I’m not Mr. T supporter, but also would like to be realistic about things we’re discussing.
Report on “Lèse Majesté in Thailand: The Enemy of Democracy”
Why would LM laws must be reformed?
My opinions are
1. This law is opened widely for benefit to unauthorized person use as their own interest.
2.This law is prevented people can tell the true.
3. This law is helping Thailand not going to be democracy.
4. It will help the monarchy more strenght and respectful.
“Nothing wrong with the lese majeste law”
“Secondly, there is nothing wrong with anyone criticising the monarchy in a constructive or academic way. The Thai King is open-minded enough to listen to opinions. The foundation of the monarchy is strong enough to withstand criticism. His Majesty has even said, “The King can do wrong”. Since the King practices the “10 Virtues of Kings”, he would only do anything wrong unintentionally.”
Thanong surely must be an intellectual joke (and extremely disingenuous) — but a highly educated and paid one…
“Nothing wrong with the lese majeste law”
take Thanong seriously? You got to be kidding. The idiocy of that writer’s arguments can take the air out of any sentient being.
“Nothing wrong with the lese majeste law”
Quote :”… Given that Andrew Walker and Nicholas are given to making wisecracks about the monarchy on their blog, which seems to actively encourage anti-monarchy sentiment, how could anyone take this petition seriously? ..”
Are u serious? I suppose everyone here (except u) is taking this petition letter very seriously. As a Thai, I’m very grateful that there is such a petition. If u dislike it, can’t u voice yr opinion in a more convincing way rather than belittling , mocking and making fun of the efforts by people who genuinely try to make Thailand more democratic?
What happened on 7/10/2008?
“Portman”:
There was no “clear intent to maim and kill”. This line of argumentation is lacking logic, and is not supported by fact. If police that day would have intended to kill protesters, why use teargas, and not guns? Fact is that police that day has not fired a gun, not one PAD protester was injured by gunfire. It is though proven beyond doubt that some PAD protesters had a clear intent to maim and kill – three police officers were shot, one stabbed through the chest, and several run down by a purposely aimed pick up truck.
That PAD protesters have been maimed by teargas (and maybe killed, if the initial investigation is correct) has been a massive screw up by police, resulting from lack of training and experience, but especially resulting from weapons procurement problems and budgeting. But this does not equal intent.
What also has to be pointed out, that police has asked Democrat led BMA for water throwers, a request that was refused on the grounds of that the water was not clean enough and could have led to health problems under the protesters.
One of the two PAD protesters killed that day was indeed a “hardcore” PAD guard – a former Police officer who has led the Buriram guards. And what led to his death is rather clear beyond reasonable doubt – he was killed by his own explosives.
“Adoring Farang Thaksinistas” – Absolute rubbish. People you accuse of this, such as me, have been running around during the terrible first two months in the drug war, capturing images, and trying to raise awareness of the killings. Unfortunately at the time the world was so interested in the beginning Iraq war that there was hardly any space in the international media for Thailand’s drug war killings. Which frustrated me endlessly. For more than 6 months after the drug war i stopped taking photos, because nothing i tried to do then made any difference whatsoever. At the time there was unfortunately not the option to present alternative views through New Mandala, and i was not aware of any similar website where i could have done that.
May i remind you that many of us journalists did not suddenly start working when Thailand’s political problems began in 2005. We have also done critical reporting before, and during the Thaksin administration.
What many do forget here is that there was hardly any public protest against the killings, and PAD’s main leaders – Sondhi Limthongkul and Chamlong Srimuang – have at the time still been staunch Thaksin supporters. The drug war killings were clearly not an incentive for the formation of the PAD.
It appears to me, that many Farang supporters of the PAD confuse the issues. The drug war killings were then, and Oct. the 7th was a completely different scenario. Each has to be looked at separately, and factually.
Further details on Giles’ Oxford talk
Although I have read Giles’ A Coup for the Rich, his red manifesto and his 1996(?) book abt the 1992 coup, I haven’t got a chance to listen his whole talk in Oxford . I just finish reading part III of the document. I think it is really a great talk and I truly admire the way Giles responded to a number of hysterical attacks directed at him. While the majority of the Thai audience seemed to be very hostile towards Giles, I think many other Thais who didn’t attend that talk (both in Thailand and overseas) sympathize with Giles’s political view and admire his courage. I , for one, give my full support to him and I’m grateful for what he and his family have done for ordinary Thais who have been forced to endure status quo for so long.Also thanks to Susie Wong for providing us with background of Giles and his family.
International scholars call for reform of Thailand’s lese majeste law
Good reminder about Khun Thongchai. As to his sensitivities and judgment, I have to add my admiration and support. When I recently volunteered to have my name added to that list, he replied that being in Thailand I should think the decision over carefully, and either way he would accommodate my wishes.
This is the kind of common sense very much missing in Thailand for some time. When people fall over themselves to shackle and handcuff others whose ideas and spoken opinions they do not like, and support a society that thinks this is proper, then Thongchai stands out head above those who think freedom is only there for people who comply and pretend to be happy.
International scholars call for reform of Thailand’s lese majeste law
What I find ironic, and a bit hypocritical, is that the Thais who always tell foreigners to shut up and get out are usually the first to accept accolades and awards from foreigners. For example, when the king receives an award for this or that accomplishment, the royalists are the first to jump and down and scream about how much the world loves the king. Put simply, the royalists love the foreigners when it is all praise, hate the foreigners when there is a whiff of criticism. That seems like an infantile knee jerk response to me. Also, another thing I find hypocritical about the royalist academics and media is that during the course of their work they criticize foreign countries and foreigners all the time. I think it is hilarious that Khun Taro goes on a rant about foreigners criticizing Thailand then has the audacity to criticize the US, as if nobody in the history of Thailand(or anywhere else) has ever criticized the US. It happens all the time. All countries get criticized and lambasted by academic and reporters, regardless of the race, continent or culture. Thais need to grow up. If Thai people have the right to criticize George Bush, Gordon Brown, the heads of other states, the heads of other governments, then foreigners have the right to comment on Thailand’s affairs. The knee jerk royalists need to wake up and get over their notion of Thai exceptionalism and their hypocritical notion of “do as I say, not do as I do.”
A level of debate
wouldn’t a truly Buddhist ‘noble’ give all their money away
Be a stupid thing to do if his wisdom led him to believe it would just be wasted, with no lasting benefit.
“Nothing wrong with the lese majeste law”
Is lese majeste a popular law? Answer that question first
That’s the wrong question, Jon – it should be is the LM law fair (just), or more precisely: Iis it’s implementation fair (just)?
I’m not in favour of outright abolition of the law, but blind freddy can see it definitely needs changing.
Even though I’m a non-academic nobody, (so my opinion is worthless), I fully agree with the 3 points listed in the above article (letter).
Further details on Giles’ Oxford talk
I would like to say something about Giles Ji Ungpakorn’s background.
Giles’ father, Dr. Puey Ungpakorn was a Major in the British Army during World War II. He worked with Siam Statesman Dr. Pridi Banomyong and The Earl Moutbatten of Burma in the British Airborne Mission to set a Sea-Line-of-Communication for the Allied Forces inside Thailand. Japan occupied Thailand at the time, Giles’ father parachuted down in the midst of danger. He got caught and was put in the police jail. However, the secret Siamese underground movement inside the police assisted Giles’ father. Dr. Puey successfully accomplished the mission for the Allied forces air power to bomb the Axis inside Thailand. It was Giles’ father plea to the Allied Forces that had saved the Palace from being bombed.
Dr. Pridi Banomyong was the brain of the coup d’etat that ended the absolute monarchy. Prachatipok (king rama 7) traveled to Japan and made a military alliance with Japan, so Pridi staged a successful coup d’etat that put the monarchy under the constitution so that the monarchy can no longer make a war decision without consulting the country. The monarchy’s ethnic was originally Arab immigrant, while Pridi’s ethnic was Chinese who would not ally with the Japanese.
The Earl Moutbatten of Burma (Prince Charles’ uncle) was the Supreme Command of the Allied Forces for Southeast Asia.
At the end of the war, the Allied Forces wanted Giles’ father to lead the country but he declined because he had sworn not to take any reward from undertaking the mission. I wish Giles’ father had lead the country, Siam would have been a very different society.
Giles has a few cousins in the current government. I think the current Finance Minister Korn Jatikavanij is also his cousin. Korn’s mother is Giles’ aunt. Giles’ uncle is the owner of one of the biggest bank in Thailand and also one of the main finance sponsor of the current government party.
Giles truly loves the country. He can speak with the elites or with the mass and they all trust him. Only the Axis attacks him because he has a tremendous potential to deter the Axis in the post-Cold War strategic landscape.
International scholars call for reform of Thailand’s lese majeste law
Let me remind some Thai readers here about Prof. Thongchai Winichakul. He was the one of Thammasat student, activist, who in 1976, stood against the brutal right-wing military , trying to protect our democracy with the cost of his freedom and lives of many of his friend activists. I think only a few Thais had this credentials. So please think twice before ranting out something irrelevant. He deserves every right as a Thai to concern about his country.
On lèse majesté
No problems Suzie sorry if i have misunderstood. I once was a moderator on a thai forum that brought this issue to my attention. I too oppose such tyranny and am appalled at not only how the Thai monarchy treats foreigners, but also how they treat their own people. Thus i put my real name to articles opposing such tyranny. I am extremely glad Harry is home now, he lives not to far from me, and i wish him all the best. I am appalled at not only his and the treatment of Thais pertaining to Lese majeste to the point i have written numerous times about the issue on my blog , as well as in news sites…
Thanks for the response clearing up your position ..
“Nothing wrong with the lese majeste law”
I wonder if any sensible person will take Thanong’s opinion seriously any more.
“…foreign friends of Thailand are now casting doubt on…lese majeste”
I am a foreignor who speaks Thai. Here in my country, there are many Thais, male and female. Most of the females are married to men of my country. I have been following the turmol in Thailand for a couple of years. One thing that I saw on my satellite TV was the Queen attending the fumiral of one of the Yellow Shirts, led by Sunthith Lintongkun, that was killed during the disturbance. Few people in my country like Sunthith. When the word got around that the queen attended that funeral, there was furor amongst the Thais here. They were saddened and very sorry she would get involved with such a person as Sonthith. Next rumors started flying. Some such rumors were the Queen may be behind some of the disturbance in the country. Other rumors are that she wants to ensure that the Crown Prince will become king after His Majesty the King is gone. It seems that none of the Thais here like the Crown Prince, but everyone loves and respects the king. I am one that respects the king.
What I would like to know, if you are allowed to tell me, “Are any of the rumor true? Why was the queen at that funeral?”