At issue: Why the best achievers Thais or foreigners who are capable of reasoning have difficulty with lese majeste law?
People all over the world no matter their education , no matter their status, recognize a repression when they see it. The example of Harry Nicolaides who received permission to publish yet was arrested anyway, found guilty anyway, and sentenced to an absolute abuse of privilege sentence, anyway is just one example of tyranny within Thailand. Somehow i know there will be many many other examples of why this law should be removed for the good of Thailand.
The issue i have with your comment Suzie is how do you justify a government enforcing such an abusive law, despite granting an author permission to publish??
Your readers will not like this, but but I support keeping the lese majeste law. It has been successful for a long time so why get rid of a useful law? If there was no such law P. Pibul may have been able to destroy the monarchy by saying and doing whatever he wanted. Same with Thaksin, he would have done the same thing, except we have this useful law. It was important to protect the young HM King Bhumibol and his beautiful wife and young family in the 1960s when not everyone understood how wonderful they were. It also helped protect him from those communists in the 1970s who said whatever they wanted, whatever the truth. Now obviously he doesn’t need it because everyone knows how great he is. But it was important in his youth. One could say the law helped get him where he is today. So why do we have to get rid of it?
And of course then we have to keep the law for HM King Bhumibol’s son HRH Crown Prince Vajiralongkorn. People have always secretly gossiped about him saying bad things about his behaviour and his married life and kids. Just think what they would say out loud without the lese majeste law! Too many people say really bad stuff about him. We need the law to protect him when he becomes king while he builds up his bun and barami so people stop gossiping about things he did in his past and he can become as naturally loved as his father.
>Lots of people in Thailand donate their money for the charity and activities under the royasl patronage or the name of HMK HMQ and the royal family. Nowadays, these very large sum of money turn into comprehensive health care complexes in many medical schools, regional hospital and again, the volunteer doctor projects.
Just out of curiosity, does anyone know:
-whether this very large sum of money is audited in any meaningful way,
-whether the figures on such accounts are publicly available,
-whether and how anyone is held accountable for how it is spent, and
-whether the effectiveness of these projects is independently scrutinized?
DK:
Your attempt at condescension is well-understood but not well-executed. Besides the English grammar and spelling errors, the fact that little minds usually attend Western places of learning but come back home and remain toxic to themselves and their country bespeaks not of Western failure but of lack of their ability to change for the better. This is what is called a shortcoming.
As to the Western world being in crisis, maybe you are right but “we” are not alone. This crisis is global, and those who have pea brains find it entertaining to deny others rights while calling those who advocate sensible interhuman relations as toxic. Hmmmmmmmmmmmm………..How about a new slogan? “Down with stupidity!”
Heartening to see the breadth and depth of the signatories and wonderful to read the easily understood message delivered in a no-nonsense fashion.
Hope it does some good. But it relies on the present regime’s interest in keeping up its image abroad. That may be of interest to Abhisit and Korn and the other “Englishmen” in the government but the PAD, those who seem to be pulling the strings of the pretty puppets up front, have demonstrated by their behaviour leading up to their putsch that they simply do not care. It works for Burma, it’ll work for us is, I suppose, the “thinking” there.
Reporters Without Borders/Reporters sans frontières
3 March 2009
THAILAND
Leading Swiss TV reporter arrested, then forbidden to leave country
Christoph M├╝ller, a leading Swiss TV reporter and producer, was handcuffed and arrested on arrival in Thailand on 27 February. He was freed on bail 24 hours later but the police confiscated his passport and he is forbidden to leave the country until further notice.
His employer, the German-language Swiss TV station SF, has described the measures as a “judicial farce” and out of all proportion to his apparent offence.
The authorities have not told M├╝ller exactly why he was arrested but it appears to have the result of a 2006 complaint about a report by M├╝ller in 2002 about a bogus Swiss doctor based in Thailand who was raising funds for a suspect charity.
Reporters Without Borders calls on the Thai authorities to immediately rescind the order banning him from leaving the country and to return his passport.
Lots of people in Thailand donate their money for the charity and activities under the royasl patronage or the name of HMK HMQ and the royal family. Nowadays, these very large sum of money turn into comprehensive health care complexes in many medical schools, regional hospital and again, the volunteer doctor projects.
There is no such people who can be the central of Thais if we don’t have the old system and the money use to protect the system will go into the pockets of the hungry politicians and it will never give back to the poor people.
It would be great for all those interested in the conference(me included), if New Mandala can provide the details of the conference. Looking forward for the opinion of prof. Thongchai and Andrew on the LM.
And my full support for the letter.
” no one is judging a culture superior or inferior”
But jiles did. Listen to the tape of this talk and you will understand.
He said that ma ra yard thai or Thai good mannerism is inferior to his british politeness. As Jiles state that he is not Thai, oppsoing any other cultures or norms is not his duty and I will appreciate if Thais who have been educate about ma ra yard Thai enough before say that what has to be adapted in the present era.
Again, I convince that LM create problem, but to insult or defame other espcially the privacy or the culture of other people is not accounted for that false. Giles should stop his quote that interfere many Thais and if he is sincere for the social development in his father home country, he have to strictly discuss the pros and cons of LM more acadmically than propaganda and outlier debate.
Thank you for intersting figure you have shown here. However, it is quite misleading and when you have finish your study and get into real trouble you will see the picture clearer.
For your first assumption, you are interpreting effectiveness just in term of money per capita. It doesn’t reflect any quality at all. The calculation for the sum of fund was based on non realistic data. After, UHC system has launched, demand and chaos was increasing. hhere is nowhere of such quality in today health system. For the goverment health fund, it is irrelevant to the thing discuss here. However, medical reimbursment for civil servant system has been reform recently and you will get more idea about these after you go into practice life.
About doctor-patient relationship and medical liability, you quite wrong about these point, it is too complicate than your understanding. Many factors are involved and can be claimed for such downturn of your future career. You are quite lucky as I to be a doctor in Thailand, patients are usually nice and pay respect to doctor. You will have some good impression when Khun Ta, Khun Yay, nod and praise you when they get into your surgery ( it means like clinics or examination room). UHC system might be one of the factor that creates more and more expectation pressuring the health care providers and lead the doctors to medical liability due to imbalance of demand and supply of th system. The best way to deal with this is you should realize the quote from King’s father
“Let consideration of personal gain
Take secondplace
To the overall benefit of Mankind
Prestige and riches
Are the natural rewards”
His Royal Highness Prince Mahidol of Songkla
The third assumption is quite offense and you make the association with some bias. I think you should give more attention on study in epidemiology and you will find the answer under the association study methodology. I suggest after you will finish your MD sometime,, wou could participate for the volunteer doctors project under the royal patronage and you will get more idea about health care system in Thailand.
An excellent letter, hopefully it will make an impact and stop the abuse of this law. You may wish to include suggestions on what exact reform is sought to assist the Thai authorities in future policy/ amendment; for example one level could be to only permit the use of the law in individual cases if the Monarchy approves it. Harry’s case is an example of the complete abuse of this law and his ongoing detention until recently has no doubt reflected poorly on the Monarch and Thailand’s ‘democratic’ values. The undue damage and poor global perception caused by recent LM cases on the Monarchy is an unfortunate risk (or deliberate action) taken by those few corrupt Thai government officials that think their actions will be perceived as being aligned to protecting the Monarchy. To move forward, someone needs to be exposed and dealt with harshly for abusing the law as only then will there be real deterrence. Start with the policemen who bring on these charges.
I love Thailand
I love MY King
I respect MY King
I respect other King
I don’t care what they say,
I LOVE MY KING
One simple question.
When you say that you love the King, do you mean the man who is the King now?
Will you love the next King as much as you love the current King?
Quote from amberwave: ” ….Just because he has different political views than you (or, if it is the case, the majority of Thai society) doesn’t make him a lesser guardian of Thai culture….”
Judging from comments posted in Thai in Prachathai site, quite a significant number of Thai people nowadays sympathise with Ji’s line of thoughts, although they may not agree with everything he said in his manifesto. Prachai is not a mainstream media, but I think it attracts Thai people who are interested in social, political and cultural issues from all walks of life so IMHO views expressed by Thai posters via Prachathai Thai Version can’t be easily dismissed. Lately, I’ve seen lots of intelligent comments and insights from Prachathai Thai Version and I’m really glad abt this because it shows that more and more Thai people are interested in what’s going on around them and start to question existing verities /status quo.
>”…It (culture) should not be consider superior or inferior.”
You are setting up a false argument here. No one is judging a culture superior or inferior.
Ji’s manifesto, if I recall correctly, noted five specific cases of royal action/inaction which he deplored (one concerned 1976).
His argument, which is pretty clear, is that the LM law is used as a shield for injustice. Calling for a republic is an extension of that argument.
At a stretch, you might say that Ji is opposing the prevailing norms of society (perhaps), but that’s a good thing, IMHO.
Just because he has different political views than you (or, if it is the case, the majority of Thai society) doesn’t make him a lesser guardian of Thai culture.
Certainly no less than anyone who uses their land to put up Western style luxury shopping malls, magnets for kids with K-Pop haircuts to attend hip-hop concerts. Now there’s a cultural issue.
I’ m a medical student in Thailand, and I want to point out some misunderstanding.
1. In Thailand budget 2009, The budget for National health security fund (The fund which is paid for Ministry of public health and used for supporting universal healthcare[UC] or “30 Baht”project ) is 80,597.7 million baht (about 1600 million pound) which serve for almost all of Thai citizen (about 60 million people), whereas Government healthcare fund (The fund which is used for providing health care for civil servants, military officers and their relatives) is about 48,700 million Baht (about 9,760 million pound) and is served for only about 2-3 million people . So, The most inefficient healthcare system in Thailand is not UC, but the government healthcare fund system.
2. For The change in relationship between Doctors and patients in Thailand, It has nothing to do with “30 Baht” project. Sueing doctors for malpractice was started from the cases in private hospitals, which appeared before “30 Baht” Project. Yes, it is right that the salary of healthcare professionals working just for the government only might not be enough, and the condition is quite not so good. So, we usually take an “extra” jobs in private hospitals or clinics, but in taking extra jobs mean you must accept that you are posing yourself as a merchant who offer an “alternative” to the normal health care system (which include you yourself in the system too!), not the savior who save the patient anymore, and you are creating inequality among the rich and the poor too. When everybody in the society percieve doctors as a merchant (even some of them might not do “extra” jobs in their lifetime, not the savior as it used to be, how can you expect them to respect you? So, that is why sueing is quite widespread nowadays in Thailand.
3. It is quite surprising that even during economic recession, Royal Thai army is planning to buy more Mi-17 helicoptors and BTR armoured fighting vehicles from Russia, and Royal Thai air force is planning to buy more JAS-39 Grippen fighters! (I’m not going to count the money used for covert operation to stabilize the “old system” ). Can you imagine if we siphon these money how much more we could spend on both curbing economic recession and improving our healthcare system?
David Brown as I said, I give up.
In answer to your question, if you don’t know I “ain’t gonna tell you”.
Let’s terminate this pointless discussion here and now.
Thai Citizen,
Fair enough. BTW, I wonder what u think are the weaknesses or strengths of this book? Have u read it yet? Do u want to relate the book’s main argument to the current Thai political situation and the recent debate on lese majeste law?The book mentions something abt the develoment of Thai democracy in relation to the institution of the monarchy. Do u mind making some comments on that?
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On lèse majesté
International scholars call for reform of Thailand’s lese majeste law
Your readers will not like this, but but I support keeping the lese majeste law. It has been successful for a long time so why get rid of a useful law? If there was no such law P. Pibul may have been able to destroy the monarchy by saying and doing whatever he wanted. Same with Thaksin, he would have done the same thing, except we have this useful law. It was important to protect the young HM King Bhumibol and his beautiful wife and young family in the 1960s when not everyone understood how wonderful they were. It also helped protect him from those communists in the 1970s who said whatever they wanted, whatever the truth. Now obviously he doesn’t need it because everyone knows how great he is. But it was important in his youth. One could say the law helped get him where he is today. So why do we have to get rid of it?
And of course then we have to keep the law for HM King Bhumibol’s son HRH Crown Prince Vajiralongkorn. People have always secretly gossiped about him saying bad things about his behaviour and his married life and kids. Just think what they would say out loud without the lese majeste law! Too many people say really bad stuff about him. We need the law to protect him when he becomes king while he builds up his bun and barami so people stop gossiping about things he did in his past and he can become as naturally loved as his father.
Report on “Lèse Majesté in Thailand: The Enemy of Democracy”
>Lots of people in Thailand donate their money for the charity and activities under the royasl patronage or the name of HMK HMQ and the royal family. Nowadays, these very large sum of money turn into comprehensive health care complexes in many medical schools, regional hospital and again, the volunteer doctor projects.
Just out of curiosity, does anyone know:
-whether this very large sum of money is audited in any meaningful way,
-whether the figures on such accounts are publicly available,
-whether and how anyone is held accountable for how it is spent, and
-whether the effectiveness of these projects is independently scrutinized?
International scholars call for reform of Thailand’s lese majeste law
DK:
Your attempt at condescension is well-understood but not well-executed. Besides the English grammar and spelling errors, the fact that little minds usually attend Western places of learning but come back home and remain toxic to themselves and their country bespeaks not of Western failure but of lack of their ability to change for the better. This is what is called a shortcoming.
As to the Western world being in crisis, maybe you are right but “we” are not alone. This crisis is global, and those who have pea brains find it entertaining to deny others rights while calling those who advocate sensible interhuman relations as toxic. Hmmmmmmmmmmmm………..How about a new slogan? “Down with stupidity!”
a letter
Heartening to see the breadth and depth of the signatories and wonderful to read the easily understood message delivered in a no-nonsense fashion.
Hope it does some good. But it relies on the present regime’s interest in keeping up its image abroad. That may be of interest to Abhisit and Korn and the other “Englishmen” in the government but the PAD, those who seem to be pulling the strings of the pretty puppets up front, have demonstrated by their behaviour leading up to their putsch that they simply do not care. It works for Burma, it’ll work for us is, I suppose, the “thinking” there.
International scholars call for reform of Thailand’s lese majeste law
Reporters Without Borders/Reporters sans frontières
3 March 2009
THAILAND
Leading Swiss TV reporter arrested, then forbidden to leave country
Christoph M├╝ller, a leading Swiss TV reporter and producer, was handcuffed and arrested on arrival in Thailand on 27 February. He was freed on bail 24 hours later but the police confiscated his passport and he is forbidden to leave the country until further notice.
His employer, the German-language Swiss TV station SF, has described the measures as a “judicial farce” and out of all proportion to his apparent offence.
The authorities have not told M├╝ller exactly why he was arrested but it appears to have the result of a 2006 complaint about a report by M├╝ller in 2002 about a bogus Swiss doctor based in Thailand who was raising funds for a suspect charity.
Reporters Without Borders calls on the Thai authorities to immediately rescind the order banning him from leaving the country and to return his passport.
Report on “Lèse Majesté in Thailand: The Enemy of Democracy”
Some point about the good of the old system.
Lots of people in Thailand donate their money for the charity and activities under the royasl patronage or the name of HMK HMQ and the royal family. Nowadays, these very large sum of money turn into comprehensive health care complexes in many medical schools, regional hospital and again, the volunteer doctor projects.
There is no such people who can be the central of Thais if we don’t have the old system and the money use to protect the system will go into the pockets of the hungry politicians and it will never give back to the poor people.
International scholars call for reform of Thailand’s lese majeste law
It would be great for all those interested in the conference(me included), if New Mandala can provide the details of the conference. Looking forward for the opinion of prof. Thongchai and Andrew on the LM.
And my full support for the letter.
International scholars call for reform of Thailand’s lese majeste law
I think you all are very stupid. Calling yourselveds scholars but have toxic brains. This is why the Western World are in crisis and go to Hell.
Report on “Lèse Majesté in Thailand: The Enemy of Democracy”
” no one is judging a culture superior or inferior”
But jiles did. Listen to the tape of this talk and you will understand.
He said that ma ra yard thai or Thai good mannerism is inferior to his british politeness. As Jiles state that he is not Thai, oppsoing any other cultures or norms is not his duty and I will appreciate if Thais who have been educate about ma ra yard Thai enough before say that what has to be adapted in the present era.
Again, I convince that LM create problem, but to insult or defame other espcially the privacy or the culture of other people is not accounted for that false. Giles should stop his quote that interfere many Thais and if he is sincere for the social development in his father home country, he have to strictly discuss the pros and cons of LM more acadmically than propaganda and outlier debate.
Report on “Lèse Majesté in Thailand: The Enemy of Democracy”
Dear Yudhi (may be you are one of my student)
Thank you for intersting figure you have shown here. However, it is quite misleading and when you have finish your study and get into real trouble you will see the picture clearer.
For your first assumption, you are interpreting effectiveness just in term of money per capita. It doesn’t reflect any quality at all. The calculation for the sum of fund was based on non realistic data. After, UHC system has launched, demand and chaos was increasing. hhere is nowhere of such quality in today health system. For the goverment health fund, it is irrelevant to the thing discuss here. However, medical reimbursment for civil servant system has been reform recently and you will get more idea about these after you go into practice life.
About doctor-patient relationship and medical liability, you quite wrong about these point, it is too complicate than your understanding. Many factors are involved and can be claimed for such downturn of your future career. You are quite lucky as I to be a doctor in Thailand, patients are usually nice and pay respect to doctor. You will have some good impression when Khun Ta, Khun Yay, nod and praise you when they get into your surgery ( it means like clinics or examination room). UHC system might be one of the factor that creates more and more expectation pressuring the health care providers and lead the doctors to medical liability due to imbalance of demand and supply of th system. The best way to deal with this is you should realize the quote from King’s father
“Let consideration of personal gain
Take secondplace
To the overall benefit of Mankind
Prestige and riches
Are the natural rewards”
His Royal Highness Prince Mahidol of Songkla
The third assumption is quite offense and you make the association with some bias. I think you should give more attention on study in epidemiology and you will find the answer under the association study methodology. I suggest after you will finish your MD sometime,, wou could participate for the volunteer doctors project under the royal patronage and you will get more idea about health care system in Thailand.
International scholars call for reform of Thailand’s lese majeste law
An excellent letter, hopefully it will make an impact and stop the abuse of this law. You may wish to include suggestions on what exact reform is sought to assist the Thai authorities in future policy/ amendment; for example one level could be to only permit the use of the law in individual cases if the Monarchy approves it. Harry’s case is an example of the complete abuse of this law and his ongoing detention until recently has no doubt reflected poorly on the Monarch and Thailand’s ‘democratic’ values. The undue damage and poor global perception caused by recent LM cases on the Monarchy is an unfortunate risk (or deliberate action) taken by those few corrupt Thai government officials that think their actions will be perceived as being aligned to protecting the Monarchy. To move forward, someone needs to be exposed and dealt with harshly for abusing the law as only then will there be real deterrence. Start with the policemen who bring on these charges.
The King Never Smiles?
@thai citizen
I love Thailand
I love MY King
I respect MY King
I respect other King
I don’t care what they say,
I LOVE MY KING
One simple question.
When you say that you love the King, do you mean the man who is the King now?
Will you love the next King as much as you love the current King?
Just curious…
Report on “Lèse Majesté in Thailand: The Enemy of Democracy”
Quote from amberwave: ” ….Just because he has different political views than you (or, if it is the case, the majority of Thai society) doesn’t make him a lesser guardian of Thai culture….”
Judging from comments posted in Thai in Prachathai site, quite a significant number of Thai people nowadays sympathise with Ji’s line of thoughts, although they may not agree with everything he said in his manifesto. Prachai is not a mainstream media, but I think it attracts Thai people who are interested in social, political and cultural issues from all walks of life so IMHO views expressed by Thai posters via Prachathai Thai Version can’t be easily dismissed. Lately, I’ve seen lots of intelligent comments and insights from Prachathai Thai Version and I’m really glad abt this because it shows that more and more Thai people are interested in what’s going on around them and start to question existing verities /status quo.
Report on “Lèse Majesté in Thailand: The Enemy of Democracy”
>”…It (culture) should not be consider superior or inferior.”
You are setting up a false argument here. No one is judging a culture superior or inferior.
Ji’s manifesto, if I recall correctly, noted five specific cases of royal action/inaction which he deplored (one concerned 1976).
His argument, which is pretty clear, is that the LM law is used as a shield for injustice. Calling for a republic is an extension of that argument.
At a stretch, you might say that Ji is opposing the prevailing norms of society (perhaps), but that’s a good thing, IMHO.
Just because he has different political views than you (or, if it is the case, the majority of Thai society) doesn’t make him a lesser guardian of Thai culture.
Certainly no less than anyone who uses their land to put up Western style luxury shopping malls, magnets for kids with K-Pop haircuts to attend hip-hop concerts. Now there’s a cultural issue.
Report on “Lèse Majesté in Thailand: The Enemy of Democracy”
Dear Mr Prasit
I’ m a medical student in Thailand, and I want to point out some misunderstanding.
1. In Thailand budget 2009, The budget for National health security fund (The fund which is paid for Ministry of public health and used for supporting universal healthcare[UC] or “30 Baht”project ) is 80,597.7 million baht (about 1600 million pound) which serve for almost all of Thai citizen (about 60 million people), whereas Government healthcare fund (The fund which is used for providing health care for civil servants, military officers and their relatives) is about 48,700 million Baht (about 9,760 million pound) and is served for only about 2-3 million people . So, The most inefficient healthcare system in Thailand is not UC, but the government healthcare fund system.
2. For The change in relationship between Doctors and patients in Thailand, It has nothing to do with “30 Baht” project. Sueing doctors for malpractice was started from the cases in private hospitals, which appeared before “30 Baht” Project. Yes, it is right that the salary of healthcare professionals working just for the government only might not be enough, and the condition is quite not so good. So, we usually take an “extra” jobs in private hospitals or clinics, but in taking extra jobs mean you must accept that you are posing yourself as a merchant who offer an “alternative” to the normal health care system (which include you yourself in the system too!), not the savior who save the patient anymore, and you are creating inequality among the rich and the poor too. When everybody in the society percieve doctors as a merchant (even some of them might not do “extra” jobs in their lifetime, not the savior as it used to be, how can you expect them to respect you? So, that is why sueing is quite widespread nowadays in Thailand.
3. It is quite surprising that even during economic recession, Royal Thai army is planning to buy more Mi-17 helicoptors and BTR armoured fighting vehicles from Russia, and Royal Thai air force is planning to buy more JAS-39 Grippen fighters! (I’m not going to count the money used for covert operation to stabilize the “old system” ). Can you imagine if we siphon these money how much more we could spend on both curbing economic recession and improving our healthcare system?
Red Shirt protest at Government House
David Brown as I said, I give up.
In answer to your question, if you don’t know I “ain’t gonna tell you”.
Let’s terminate this pointless discussion here and now.
Red Shirt protest at Government House
susie wong
great statement… thanks
Red Shirt protest at Government House
regular reader
please help me, what is different about Thailand?
is it only that the senior retired and active military are in control which is like Burma, Cambodia or any number of other countries?
or is it something else peculiar to Thai society that I do not understand?
The King Never Smiles?
Thai Citizen,
Fair enough. BTW, I wonder what u think are the weaknesses or strengths of this book? Have u read it yet? Do u want to relate the book’s main argument to the current Thai political situation and the recent debate on lese majeste law?The book mentions something abt the develoment of Thai democracy in relation to the institution of the monarchy. Do u mind making some comments on that?