Having taught for over 12 years I do agree about the potential of Thai students for critical thinking . However, if something like a “democratic form 0f life” is to be built in Thailand, let alone Socialism, it entails not just thinking outside the boxes of buddhism nationalism and royalism but an active explusion of these forms of enslavement and servitude from peoples minds.Can the people let go of their Thainess are become common humans and global citizens?
You’re quite right. People teaching through the medium of what is a second language for their students have to be very careful that they don’t commit the error of equating linguistic competence with analytical/cognitive ability. I’m working with a Lao-speaker on his thesis (examining why the Lao govt’s bird flu control efforts don’t seem to be getting anywhere), and although the English is riddled with errors, the work itself is original and interesting.
And I do sometimes wonder why postgrad departments at many Thai universities are asking students to write theses in English rather than Thai, especially when the course (at the MA level) has been taught entirely in Thai.
On the other hand, my undergraduate students routinely attempt to plagiarize, and I’ve been handed theses to edit that were mashups of the first ten results found on Google Scholar for the topic in question.
So, sure, language skills don’t equate to analytical skills, but equally, just because someone’s English is terrible doesn’t mean that they’re not also plagiarizing.
Certainly there was a marked lack of historical awareness among many people speaking from the floor. However, education is no barrier to prejudice. The Thai state has clearly done a pretty good job of instilling ahistorical royalism among people who are otherwise very well educated. What I was struck by though is the ad hominem attacks from the yellow-shirts. The guy you hear at the beginning – and throughout – making personal attacks on Ungpakorn (“your brother is NGO”, implying he is not Thai, etc) was the one wearing the yellow t-shirt with the royal insignia. As Giles said at the end, ad hominem attacks imply the absence of any reasoned case.
Thanks for posting the audio – very interesting (and entertaining).
I note that a number of the people asking questions (actually more those making statements) had clearly not read Handley’s TKNS, or if they had read it, they either had not comprehended it or are still in a state of denial.
Speaking of being in a state of denial, I’m still hoping for some grand gestures being made by a few of the major players in this saga (including the head honcho) that salvages their reputations or at least that of their legacy.
jonfernquest sounds more and more like Rush Limbaugh, who is described at his website as: “America’s Truth Detector; the Doctor of Democracy; the Most Dangerous Man in America; the All-Knowing, All-Sensing, All-Everything Maha Rushie; defender of motherhood, protector of fatherhood and an all-around good guy.” A few things to work on there, perhaps, but I am sure that Mr. Limbaugh would agree that hire education is superior to higher education, especially if the latter results in any kind of critical thought.
Of course, Harry has already returned to Australia and certain features of his case may anyway somewhat undermine his credibility as a champion of freedom of speech. Giles’ politics won’t appeal to everybody but I would say that he nevertheless performs a useful function in publicizing recent developments in Thailand. The previous poster might have a stronger argument if he mentioned the Thai dissidents still in prison. The case of Daranee Charnchoengsilpakul, who has been in jail since July and who recently failed in her fourth application for bail, is particularly disturbing.
Sorry, have to post on this again. I’ve just read Harry Dollar’s SMH article. Excuse me for being unacademic, but what a total prick the Dollar boy is! I am shocked that the Herald would have posted such a clutch of sour grapes.
What always amazes me is the viciousness of those who have worked with people and seen them fall on hard times. Clifford is a classic case; first he sticks the boot in, then tries to turn the kickbacks into a “let’s debate the %^&$$@!%” issue. Yuck. The other trogs who backed up Cliff and his buddies are equally as gross. I might be a ^&*$, but I’m not a ^%$@*&^ %$#& (TISM).
Rofen’s post is unanswerable. Clifford and Jon shouldn’t even begin to try to sanction this horrible injustice suffered by one of their colleagues. How easy it would be for so many of us to suffer this punishment. All of us would hope at that time that people we had worked with would be brave in our defence, not working out their pique at not having being “listened to”. Dickens created Uriah Heep for this kind of ignoble worm.
Have a heart. Don’t add to the indefensible things that will make you flinch when you are old.
I saw a copy of Harry’s book when I worked for a local publisher and he was attempting to get it printed.
I threw it in the bin because it was so diabolically bad (now I wish I had kept a copy).
He clearly knew something was up because in the cover letter he mentioned how he thought his emails at MFL Uni were being intercepted. The book made some very unwise statements about the Thai royal family (hence the LM charge) and he was a fool to try to get it published in Thailand.
So maybe the claims that he was looking for publicity have some weight to them. But the point is he was sentenced under draconian laws for writing. Writers write. It’s what they do (even if it is badly).
The institution he was accused of offending has centuries of culture behind it, which one would think would make it robust enough to stand up to a few badly placed words in a terrible novel that nobody even bought.
I want to take issue with the interviewing style here. Let’s look at the first paragraph response. The first two-thirds are reasonable — (apart from the “When you’ve got a hundred thousand people willing to come to the sport stadium” — like, this has never happened before) — I think most people would agree with this. However, the last bit made me sit up. If Jai has some evidence that the red shirts “want to go further”, he should be more explicit. “Democratic reform” or “welfare state”.What does this mean? I really think the dons should question this. Ji is a revolutionary socialist, now beyond harm in England. What reform, what kind of state? How does he know that the Reds want this? Come on, you guys.
Then there’s Jakrapob. What’s this about him being an “interesting man”? How so? I don’t think its an overstatement to say his inglorious apologetics during the period of Thaksin’s human rights offensives still are pretty ripe. How could you let that go though to the keeper?
Dunno, you guys. If it was a thug you didn’t agree with, you wouldn’t hesitate to go after him. Ji is clearly more palatable to you; let’s see some more critical analysis. Don’t pick up a rep for being an Amen corner. Ji is feisty enough, and wears the mailed fist in solidarity; let him kick up a bit.
The event was attended by around 60 people, overwhelmingly Thais, and there was a very lively and contentious debate, with several yellow-shirts in attendance (one actually wearing a yellow shirt). I recorded the proceedings, which are now available online at
Sorry, but you missed – I am not Singaporean. BTW “poor sods” is specifically used for “you”, who thinks that people here should retain neo-colonialistic worship of the “white” guys.
Don’t really want to get into a verbal slugfest with you or anyone else. Just want to point out the difference between linguistic ability and genuine abilities – and perhaps contribute a little to unbiased critique by foreigners working / teaching here
“But the really important thing was that it actually happened…This evening Thai history was made and Thailand made a step forward just for the fact that it happened.”
History? This isn’t even newsworthy. What is the big deal? Particularly given the fact that any middle class Thai, much less poor rural person could never dream of setting foot in any western university like this.
It would be much more impressive if Marxist-Trotskyite Giles actually gave some attention to those poor people that he is allegedly an advocate and expert about, and helped them in some way, teach them some practical skill (not dysfunctional Marxist blather that will get them fired or thrown in jail) rather than hanging out in elitist white boy intellectual haunts.
Susie Wong’s comment really gets at the heart of the problem. “Elite family worship” among the fashionably rebellious and socialist children sent abroad to study to get out of their rich parents’ hair, which is probably why Giles is not rotting in a jail like Harry right now. They let him run away because of his famous daddy, just like Chalerm’s son.
Most people who involved in the movement including ajarn Ji use the notion “democracy” to defend their own interests and maintain their elitist status in society. They never seriously considered whether the said democracy benefited the majority poors who not joining the movements. I think we have to look closely at how those the so-called grass root people come to join the movement. How much they earned from this movement bussiness? Are they really advocated for democracy?
I myself agreed that democracy system is really importance for all society, but i didn’t want to see that it was used to serve only small group of people political interests. In Thailand, democracy never go to benefit the poors. I could say that the notion of democracy now in Thailand is being used to only serve politicians and of elitist people interests. The present movement in Bangkok would not contribute to democracy society, I believed.
Ajarn Ji, could you change your campaigning strategies?
Below is an article published on the BKK Post. I think New Mandalay should publicize more abt this case. Are the red-shirts now too eager to distance themselves from whoever they perceive as no longer useful to them or will undermine their movement?? Also, perhaps Giles in London can help publicize more abt this:
By: Bangkokpost.com
Published: 24/02/2009
After three failed bail attempts in seven months, lese majeste suspect Daranee Charnchoengsilpakul has lost all hope of returning to a life outside prison.
“I want to get out, but it seems impossible,” Ms Daranee, better known as “Da Torpedo”, said Tuesday via a small microphone at Khlong Prem prison’s visiting room.
Her voice was hoarse and her words sounded fuzzy as she could hardly open her mouth to speak due to severe jaw dysfunction.
Wearing a light-brown prison uniform, the 46-year-old woman who was once a key speaker of the United Front for Democracy against Dictatorship, looks much different now from when she frequently appeared on UDD stages last year.
She is now skinny, with a glum look and stooped shoulders. But her eyes still show a strong determination to fight on. “I’ve lost 15 kilos since arriving in here,” she said.
Ms Daranee was arrested at her Bangkok home on July 22 last year on lese majeste charges following her speeches at a UDD rally.
Since then she has been detained at the Central Women Correctional Institute in Bangkok’s Chatuchak district.
Fellow UDD supporters, anti-coup students and activists, no longer come to visit her, she said.
Key UDD leaders including Jatuporn Prompan, Veera Musikhapong and Nattawut Saikua, have never showed up, she said.
Only her elder brother and her lawyer still pay occasional visits….
Engr.Dr. : I don’t wish to diminish your jubilation over Harry’s release (almost everyone, including myself, is pleased), but to call it “a triumph of freedom” is to completely miss the point:his pardon & release were the result of behind-the-scenes diplomacy, & do not signify a change of law or policy in the Thai government. There are others who are unlikely to be be released from much longer gaol terms. They include 2 women. You will find details at http://www.prachatai.com/english/news.php?id=928
Additionally, there is a large number of people under investigation & waiting to be charged. (I’ve heard 2 figures, 17 and 30 – maybe someone better informed can update.)
These people are Thai citizens, so they have not attracted the attention of the world’s press to the same degree as Harry, yet they are enduring the same inhuman treatment and conditions, for the ‘crime’ of speaking freely. There are petitions you can sign.
If you really want to read the book, you may find google a useful tool.
Clifford Sloane: your comments that Harry was advised by so-called ‘friends’ of the unecessary risks of writing the actual offensive passage in his book and that he “tended to either ignore or minimize the consequences” lacks any credibility and is meaningless. If you, heath and Jon Fernquest did give such advice, Harry appears to have listened to you all and acted responsibly to eliminate any risks by writing letters about the book to the Royal Household Bureau, the Ministry of Culture and the Ministry of Foreign Affairs. Is there any higher authorities he could have written to? The national library of Thailand then accepted the book (and still do apparently as it is publically available on the shelves) and Asia Books had no problem with distributing it either. It took over 3 years for the book to get attention. Where is the ‘taste of flamboyance’ in that?
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Special interview: Giles Ungpakorn, part 2
Having taught for over 12 years I do agree about the potential of Thai students for critical thinking . However, if something like a “democratic form 0f life” is to be built in Thailand, let alone Socialism, it entails not just thinking outside the boxes of buddhism nationalism and royalism but an active explusion of these forms of enslavement and servitude from peoples minds.Can the people let go of their Thainess are become common humans and global citizens?
More repressive efforts in Thailand
@hclau
You’re quite right. People teaching through the medium of what is a second language for their students have to be very careful that they don’t commit the error of equating linguistic competence with analytical/cognitive ability. I’m working with a Lao-speaker on his thesis (examining why the Lao govt’s bird flu control efforts don’t seem to be getting anywhere), and although the English is riddled with errors, the work itself is original and interesting.
And I do sometimes wonder why postgrad departments at many Thai universities are asking students to write theses in English rather than Thai, especially when the course (at the MA level) has been taught entirely in Thai.
On the other hand, my undergraduate students routinely attempt to plagiarize, and I’ve been handed theses to edit that were mashups of the first ten results found on Google Scholar for the topic in question.
So, sure, language skills don’t equate to analytical skills, but equally, just because someone’s English is terrible doesn’t mean that they’re not also plagiarizing.
Giles in Oxford: Lese majeste in Thailand
Certainly there was a marked lack of historical awareness among many people speaking from the floor. However, education is no barrier to prejudice. The Thai state has clearly done a pretty good job of instilling ahistorical royalism among people who are otherwise very well educated. What I was struck by though is the ad hominem attacks from the yellow-shirts. The guy you hear at the beginning – and throughout – making personal attacks on Ungpakorn (“your brother is NGO”, implying he is not Thai, etc) was the one wearing the yellow t-shirt with the royal insignia. As Giles said at the end, ad hominem attacks imply the absence of any reasoned case.
Giles in Oxford: Lese majeste in Thailand
Thanks for posting the audio – very interesting (and entertaining).
I note that a number of the people asking questions (actually more those making statements) had clearly not read Handley’s TKNS, or if they had read it, they either had not comprehended it or are still in a state of denial.
Speaking of being in a state of denial, I’m still hoping for some grand gestures being made by a few of the major players in this saga (including the head honcho) that salvages their reputations or at least that of their legacy.
Quick report on Giles in London
jonfernquest sounds more and more like Rush Limbaugh, who is described at his website as: “America’s Truth Detector; the Doctor of Democracy; the Most Dangerous Man in America; the All-Knowing, All-Sensing, All-Everything Maha Rushie; defender of motherhood, protector of fatherhood and an all-around good guy.” A few things to work on there, perhaps, but I am sure that Mr. Limbaugh would agree that hire education is superior to higher education, especially if the latter results in any kind of critical thought.
Quick report on Giles in London
Of course, Harry has already returned to Australia and certain features of his case may anyway somewhat undermine his credibility as a champion of freedom of speech. Giles’ politics won’t appeal to everybody but I would say that he nevertheless performs a useful function in publicizing recent developments in Thailand. The previous poster might have a stronger argument if he mentioned the Thai dissidents still in prison. The case of Daranee Charnchoengsilpakul, who has been in jail since July and who recently failed in her fourth application for bail, is particularly disturbing.
Heath Dollar on Harry’s literary ambition
Sorry, have to post on this again. I’ve just read Harry Dollar’s SMH article. Excuse me for being unacademic, but what a total prick the Dollar boy is! I am shocked that the Herald would have posted such a clutch of sour grapes.
What always amazes me is the viciousness of those who have worked with people and seen them fall on hard times. Clifford is a classic case; first he sticks the boot in, then tries to turn the kickbacks into a “let’s debate the %^&$$@!%” issue. Yuck. The other trogs who backed up Cliff and his buddies are equally as gross. I might be a ^&*$, but I’m not a ^%$@*&^ %$#& (TISM).
Good night, and good luck.
Heath Dollar on Harry’s literary ambition
Rofen’s post is unanswerable. Clifford and Jon shouldn’t even begin to try to sanction this horrible injustice suffered by one of their colleagues. How easy it would be for so many of us to suffer this punishment. All of us would hope at that time that people we had worked with would be brave in our defence, not working out their pique at not having being “listened to”. Dickens created Uriah Heep for this kind of ignoble worm.
Have a heart. Don’t add to the indefensible things that will make you flinch when you are old.
Heath Dollar on Harry’s literary ambition
I saw a copy of Harry’s book when I worked for a local publisher and he was attempting to get it printed.
I threw it in the bin because it was so diabolically bad (now I wish I had kept a copy).
He clearly knew something was up because in the cover letter he mentioned how he thought his emails at MFL Uni were being intercepted. The book made some very unwise statements about the Thai royal family (hence the LM charge) and he was a fool to try to get it published in Thailand.
So maybe the claims that he was looking for publicity have some weight to them. But the point is he was sentenced under draconian laws for writing. Writers write. It’s what they do (even if it is badly).
The institution he was accused of offending has centuries of culture behind it, which one would think would make it robust enough to stand up to a few badly placed words in a terrible novel that nobody even bought.
Special interview: Giles Ungpakorn, part 2
I want to take issue with the interviewing style here. Let’s look at the first paragraph response. The first two-thirds are reasonable — (apart from the “When you’ve got a hundred thousand people willing to come to the sport stadium” — like, this has never happened before) — I think most people would agree with this. However, the last bit made me sit up. If Jai has some evidence that the red shirts “want to go further”, he should be more explicit. “Democratic reform” or “welfare state”.What does this mean? I really think the dons should question this. Ji is a revolutionary socialist, now beyond harm in England. What reform, what kind of state? How does he know that the Reds want this? Come on, you guys.
Then there’s Jakrapob. What’s this about him being an “interesting man”? How so? I don’t think its an overstatement to say his inglorious apologetics during the period of Thaksin’s human rights offensives still are pretty ripe. How could you let that go though to the keeper?
Dunno, you guys. If it was a thug you didn’t agree with, you wouldn’t hesitate to go after him. Ji is clearly more palatable to you; let’s see some more critical analysis. Don’t pick up a rep for being an Amen corner. Ji is feisty enough, and wears the mailed fist in solidarity; let him kick up a bit.
Giles in Oxford: Lese majeste in Thailand
The event was attended by around 60 people, overwhelmingly Thais, and there was a very lively and contentious debate, with several yellow-shirts in attendance (one actually wearing a yellow shirt). I recorded the proceedings, which are now available online at
http://www.4shared.com/account/file/89296532/b1dcb0b1/Giles_Ji_Ungpakorn_-_Lese_Majeste.html
I am also trying to get it uploaded to Oxford University’s iTunes site so people can download it as a podcast.
If you like, I will write up a summary of the event for NM for those who cannot download the file or lack the time to listen to it.
More repressive efforts in Thailand
To Michael,
Sorry, but you missed – I am not Singaporean. BTW “poor sods” is specifically used for “you”, who thinks that people here should retain neo-colonialistic worship of the “white” guys.
Don’t really want to get into a verbal slugfest with you or anyone else. Just want to point out the difference between linguistic ability and genuine abilities – and perhaps contribute a little to unbiased critique by foreigners working / teaching here
Quick report on Giles in London
“But the really important thing was that it actually happened…This evening Thai history was made and Thailand made a step forward just for the fact that it happened.”
History? This isn’t even newsworthy. What is the big deal? Particularly given the fact that any middle class Thai, much less poor rural person could never dream of setting foot in any western university like this.
It would be much more impressive if Marxist-Trotskyite Giles actually gave some attention to those poor people that he is allegedly an advocate and expert about, and helped them in some way, teach them some practical skill (not dysfunctional Marxist blather that will get them fired or thrown in jail) rather than hanging out in elitist white boy intellectual haunts.
Susie Wong’s comment really gets at the heart of the problem. “Elite family worship” among the fashionably rebellious and socialist children sent abroad to study to get out of their rich parents’ hair, which is probably why Giles is not rotting in a jail like Harry right now. They let him run away because of his famous daddy, just like Chalerm’s son.
Special interview: Giles Ungpakorn, part 2
Most people who involved in the movement including ajarn Ji use the notion “democracy” to defend their own interests and maintain their elitist status in society. They never seriously considered whether the said democracy benefited the majority poors who not joining the movements. I think we have to look closely at how those the so-called grass root people come to join the movement. How much they earned from this movement bussiness? Are they really advocated for democracy?
I myself agreed that democracy system is really importance for all society, but i didn’t want to see that it was used to serve only small group of people political interests. In Thailand, democracy never go to benefit the poors. I could say that the notion of democracy now in Thailand is being used to only serve politicians and of elitist people interests. The present movement in Bangkok would not contribute to democracy society, I believed.
Ajarn Ji, could you change your campaigning strategies?
Discipline and punish: Thai style
Below is an article published on the BKK Post. I think New Mandalay should publicize more abt this case. Are the red-shirts now too eager to distance themselves from whoever they perceive as no longer useful to them or will undermine their movement?? Also, perhaps Giles in London can help publicize more abt this:
By: Bangkokpost.com
Published: 24/02/2009
After three failed bail attempts in seven months, lese majeste suspect Daranee Charnchoengsilpakul has lost all hope of returning to a life outside prison.
“I want to get out, but it seems impossible,” Ms Daranee, better known as “Da Torpedo”, said Tuesday via a small microphone at Khlong Prem prison’s visiting room.
Her voice was hoarse and her words sounded fuzzy as she could hardly open her mouth to speak due to severe jaw dysfunction.
Wearing a light-brown prison uniform, the 46-year-old woman who was once a key speaker of the United Front for Democracy against Dictatorship, looks much different now from when she frequently appeared on UDD stages last year.
She is now skinny, with a glum look and stooped shoulders. But her eyes still show a strong determination to fight on. “I’ve lost 15 kilos since arriving in here,” she said.
Ms Daranee was arrested at her Bangkok home on July 22 last year on lese majeste charges following her speeches at a UDD rally.
Since then she has been detained at the Central Women Correctional Institute in Bangkok’s Chatuchak district.
Fellow UDD supporters, anti-coup students and activists, no longer come to visit her, she said.
Key UDD leaders including Jatuporn Prompan, Veera Musikhapong and Nattawut Saikua, have never showed up, she said.
Only her elder brother and her lawyer still pay occasional visits….
Aturan Permainan DominoQQ utk Pemula
Engr.Dr. : I don’t wish to diminish your jubilation over Harry’s release (almost everyone, including myself, is pleased), but to call it “a triumph of freedom” is to completely miss the point:his pardon & release were the result of behind-the-scenes diplomacy, & do not signify a change of law or policy in the Thai government. There are others who are unlikely to be be released from much longer gaol terms. They include 2 women. You will find details at http://www.prachatai.com/english/news.php?id=928
Additionally, there is a large number of people under investigation & waiting to be charged. (I’ve heard 2 figures, 17 and 30 – maybe someone better informed can update.)
These people are Thai citizens, so they have not attracted the attention of the world’s press to the same degree as Harry, yet they are enduring the same inhuman treatment and conditions, for the ‘crime’ of speaking freely. There are petitions you can sign.
If you really want to read the book, you may find google a useful tool.
Interview with Professor Janet Sturgeon
Dear Dr. Sturgeon,
Sorry it has taken me so long to get back to you.
My email address is: [email protected] .
Best regards, Tony Zola
Special interview: Giles Ungpakorn, part 2
The red shirts have lost my support after their thuggish behaviour in preventing the Gay Pride parade in Chiang Mai on the weekend.
http://www.nationmultimedia.com/2009/02/22/national/national_30096290.php
Special interview: Giles Ungpakorn, part 2
Eden (comment 2)
The person who is said to have slapped Aj.Puey at the Don Muang Airport was Slang Bunnag, not Samak.
Heath Dollar on Harry’s literary ambition
Clifford Sloane: your comments that Harry was advised by so-called ‘friends’ of the unecessary risks of writing the actual offensive passage in his book and that he “tended to either ignore or minimize the consequences” lacks any credibility and is meaningless. If you, heath and Jon Fernquest did give such advice, Harry appears to have listened to you all and acted responsibly to eliminate any risks by writing letters about the book to the Royal Household Bureau, the Ministry of Culture and the Ministry of Foreign Affairs. Is there any higher authorities he could have written to? The national library of Thailand then accepted the book (and still do apparently as it is publically available on the shelves) and Asia Books had no problem with distributing it either. It took over 3 years for the book to get attention. Where is the ‘taste of flamboyance’ in that?