Dear Khun Joy and Steve, thanks for your concerned (Steve) we should keep each other inform about the case, i want the best for my country,even though i no longer live there any more, i have found the land of the freedom , and i am really appreciate what the west country has giving me ,educated me,pointed me to the right direction and it did open my eyes to world that 30years ago i wouldn’t know it really exist.
I am reading the few comments by Thai nationals here.
And the ones who are making thoughtful comments are giving a pleasant feeling that there is hope in Thailand for progression. I am sure that any thinking Thai person would feel the same as you.Please continue to be courageous and brave as you are the future of Thailand. But be careful there are those powerful people who would wish to do you harm.
To those who are not using their own minds and resorting to knee jerk reactions ,Please open your minds or your creed will o the way of the Dodo.
The way of the future is universal harmony and brotherhood ..NOT a 1930’s style Adolf Hitler Germany. Please learn the lessons of the past. Every revolution in the history of man was based to unfair rules by Government.
I should add that I believe Harry’s case has been made a sort of ‘example’ to intimidate any possible future ‘trangression’ by ‘farangs’. He’s perfect for such role: not a well-known or ‘high-standing’ figure and no political connection.
I was going to make some remark on the comparison with Jufer’s case, that I saw Khun Ralp and Observer already mentioned it.
I’m not sure the difference between the two cases has to do with “political timing” as Observer said (not sure what that means either).
I suspect that it has more to do with the royal family’s (especially the King’s) connection with Switzerland. Jufer was released within days after the conviction, if I remember correctly.
I also suspect that the alledged ‘target’ of less majesty acts in the two cases are differenct, the King in one case, the Crown Prince in another. (I cannot elaborate on this point, just to be on the safe side.)
Observer: “political timing”? No, it has to do with who was claiming to be insulted and the message that this case sends to others who want to write about this guy’s private life.
The Shan State East Tatmadaw commander’s statement that “The Wa need to either surrender or become a local militia force under the Defense Services,” highlights some interesting parallels between 1) the current efforts of the SPDC to subsume at least some of the disparate ceasefire groups within the larger Tatmadaw and 2) the situation in central Burma in the mid 1950s where the AFPFL sought to consolidate local strongmen and their decentralised militia (who had earlier joined up to fight off the Japanese but had developed into their own little fiefdoms) within networks of local Socialist political leaders and then turn them into ‘field units’ and bring them under formal Tatmadaw authority. (On the latter, see Mary Callahan, Making Enemies, 2003).
At the time, the government and military needed to allow these disparate fiefdoms to continue as allies in order to be able to gradually extend and consolidate formal authority over what would have otherwise been anti-State insurgents. And now, as Aiontay notes, “The regime has effectively turned over territory in a feudal fashion in order to maintain control over the whole.” Similar to the Wa, the SPDC has reportedly ordered the DKBA to turn themselves, if superficially, into a border security force under the (at least nominal) authority of the SPDC. Or am I reaching a bit too far with this?
Another Thai,
I wouldn’t say I can discuss this sort of stuff openly with friends. In fact we have to be very discreet abt this and at first when u approach them, we need to be very careful coz we can never be too sure if they won’t get offended or reject our ideas right away.Some of my friends simply don’t want to discuss this and they will show clear sign from the beginning. Like u, I do not want to abolish the institution all anything like that. All I want is simply transaparency, accountability and the right to criticize ‘them’ constructively.
Joy ‘ I am glad that you have friends to discuss this openly,sadly in my case people around me seem to be the opposite, they can’t see that this law isn’t right and it is against human right (mind you what is it the human right for people in Thailand they won’t know would they? ) still like you said ” there is hope “
Everybody who opens his/her Lonely Planet will know about the “sentiment”. Honestly, I don’t believe a novel might contribute to the establishment/improvement of the human rights at all. As far as I read did the author lived in Thailand for quite a while. I don’t judge it it terms of “this is what happens” but in terms of “something to deny oneself” while being a guest or expat in the Kingdom of Thailand. Using the law to extinguish opposition is a completely different topic. PS: Great webiste by the way, thumbs up!
I am getting very tired of the “when in Rome…” phrase. This can easily be turned around. As Thailand aspires to be part of the global community there are also certain universal rights, such as freedom of speech and thought.
The increasing sophism with which the draconian punishments for Lese Majeste are explained draw not just criticism from western countries, but from the Thai population as well.
There are no absolutes here, and Thailand is no more “special case” than any other country in the world is. A compromise between the national interest and the demands of the global community has to be worked out here. Punishments from 3 to 15 years jail for this offense, i am sorry, are no compromise.
The romanticism of absolute monarchy is completely unrealistic. Corruption happens in such systems as much as in any other system. In a democracy at least people have the opportunity to vote their representatives out of office. And there is the hope than one day a society of equal opportunities is created, under which excessive corruption will decrease.
There was more than a bit of criticism against Mother Theresa, by the way, for example her strong stand against birth control in a country that has a massive problem with overpopulation.
Nero: I haven’t got much to add to what Vox & Frank have already said above, and I think I am just about the last person on here to be asked to argue for the merits of democracy.
You asked: ‘what is a foreigner’s point to write about the monarchy?‘
If you are referring to Harry, then I don’t think one or two sentences in a few hundred page book really counts as writing about the monarchy – have you read the alleged offending sentence?
On the other hand, if you are referring to Handley’s TKNS, then I think one of the reasons Handley gave for writing the book was because no-one had done it before – I’m sure we all would have liked to have seen Thai’s be allowed to write such a book.
(but are they even allowed to read it?)
Dear Another Thai, I mostly agree with u but believe it or not (and this is good news) there are not just ‘a few of us’, there are more.At first, I felt the same way as u, but later on I discover that there are also many Thais who share our line of thoughts (both inside Thailand and abroad).. I even find some among my close friends!! ( we never discussed this ‘sensitive’ issue before until very recently). I believe there is hope that voice of dissent like us will strengthen and become more empowered day by day (although now those conservatives and right-wingers still dominate Thai political life).
Has someone re-published what he wrote? I feel as I always do in these cases, totally blind. How can you judge someone if you don’t know what his crime is – what he actually wrote? And who decides what is offensive? And how do you know it’s offensive if no one talks or writes about it?
While the elections certainly are a factor, it was only a matter of time for this conflict to come about. The regime has effectively turned over territory in a feudal fashion in order to maintain control over the whole. Now they are in the process of solidifying control over the whole country which entails reasserting control over Wa, and other ceasefire groups, territory. There’s one snippet of information I’d like to know: what is China’s policy?
The old “If we are foreigners we have no business commenting on foreign affairs” argument! It never seems to fade away, even with wisdom.
These so-called sentiments, or sensitivities about the monarchy and over-emphasis on human rights and democracy and freedom of speech, these sentiments are not just sentiments. If they were, that would be fine. But the sentiments are translated into action, into harassment, into incitement, into criminal prosecution, into imprisonment, sometimes into death. They cease being sentiments when they are transformed into action – individual, group or collective, that removes inalienable rights of life, liberty, the pursuit of happiness, free speech and that democracy that many people are these days fond of blaming for the world’s ills.
Just because I am not married to my neighbor’s wife when he starts beating her to death does not mean I am not obligated to call the police.
Here in Thailand, the country and its agencies are, and have long been, covered by international human rights and free speech protections that are generally not safeguarded, promoted, permitted or recognized. this Thai Rome that some are wishful thinkers and apologists for wrongdoers are so fond of is not a Rome where people are, or should be, entitled to do what they want how they want. This is a global issue, and because it happens here in Thailand to involve a small group of Thais who share the same interests wiht foreigners, does not mean that the cause is wrong, unjust or should not be fought. Many Thais would like to be free to speak, to act, but many end up dead because of ‘sentiments.’
Your argument seeems to be ‘When in Rome, do as the Romans do.’ Which sounds reasonable, but is in fact absolute rubbish in this case.
In ancient Rome, ‘do as the Romans do’ would have meant keeping slaves, burning Christians, and raping children. Or perhaps we could phrase it as ‘When in Berlin, do as the Germans do’, and we all know where that leads. (Just broken Godwin’s law, but there you go . . . )
The point is that of course local traditions and customs should be respected by visitors, but equally obviously, there are just laws and unjust laws. And any law that places a person in jail for a three year sentence for one paragraph in a novel is unjust. Punishments must fit the crime, and in this case they patently do not.
nganadeeleg, but what is a foreigner’s point to write about the monarchy. especially, when he knew how sensitive that issue actually is. true, there are many people of your opinion and i am keeping my fingers crossed that Harry gets pardoned. as foreigners we should respect these thai sentiments and accept “roman” rules of the game, even if like them or not.
but some general question: what’s Thailand’s gain from democracy? corruption, vote-buying, populism? how about societal progress which actually came from wise monarchs such as Mongkut or Chulalongkorn? why is it mr. handley’s job criticize royal projects which “only worked out in propaganda”? did anybody blame mother teresa for the souls she didn’t save?
Dear Ralph, I think this has to do with “political timing” of each case.
Dear Socratis, “This shows that there is still some sense in the Thai authority involved in Lèse majesté cases. ” What sense? A good sense of justice or a good one of political maneuvering for their own benefits?
Justice? I doubt very much that Da Torpedo would even get bail, let along a consideration to let her go. I doubt if two other Thais who also plead guilty would get pardoned the same way Nicolaides is being considered. (At least the news doesn’t mention them at all. Only Nicolaides is the case.)
With Nocolaides out soon, the annoying noise from Down Under would hopefully subside, if not completely gone. On the other hand, pardons to Thais would send an entirely different message domestically.
The only “sense” Thai authorities have in the lese majeste case may have nothing to do with justice.
We don’t like to second-guess or read between the lines. It is f-a-c-t that Amnesty International has been uncomfortably silent on Thailand’s lese majeste hysteria. However, when we use the word “political”, we must take care to define what we mean. AI is a huge bureaucracy and slow to act. To assume that AI Thailand is not putting forward this issue to the international human rights group because they have a hidden agenda for PAD is simply not fair. Lese majeste law is being used indiscriminately in Thailand across all political boundaries.]
How come the process was different for Jufer? Or at least that seems the to have been the case. Sure, Jufer initially pleaded guilty, but the authorities don’t seem to have waited a full month for the appeal process for Jufer before sending him back to Switzerland. All very opaque. My presumption is that this has to do with who was said to have been slighted and to send a warning message.
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Lèse majesté and Harry Nicolaides
Dear Khun Joy and Steve, thanks for your concerned (Steve) we should keep each other inform about the case, i want the best for my country,even though i no longer live there any more, i have found the land of the freedom , and i am really appreciate what the west country has giving me ,educated me,pointed me to the right direction and it did open my eyes to world that 30years ago i wouldn’t know it really exist.
Lèse majesté and Harry Nicolaides
I am reading the few comments by Thai nationals here.
And the ones who are making thoughtful comments are giving a pleasant feeling that there is hope in Thailand for progression. I am sure that any thinking Thai person would feel the same as you.Please continue to be courageous and brave as you are the future of Thailand. But be careful there are those powerful people who would wish to do you harm.
To those who are not using their own minds and resorting to knee jerk reactions ,Please open your minds or your creed will o the way of the Dodo.
The way of the future is universal harmony and brotherhood ..NOT a 1930’s style Adolf Hitler Germany. Please learn the lessons of the past. Every revolution in the history of man was based to unfair rules by Government.
Corrections Department recommends pardon
I should add that I believe Harry’s case has been made a sort of ‘example’ to intimidate any possible future ‘trangression’ by ‘farangs’. He’s perfect for such role: not a well-known or ‘high-standing’ figure and no political connection.
Corrections Department recommends pardon
I was going to make some remark on the comparison with Jufer’s case, that I saw Khun Ralp and Observer already mentioned it.
I’m not sure the difference between the two cases has to do with “political timing” as Observer said (not sure what that means either).
I suspect that it has more to do with the royal family’s (especially the King’s) connection with Switzerland. Jufer was released within days after the conviction, if I remember correctly.
I also suspect that the alledged ‘target’ of less majesty acts in the two cases are differenct, the King in one case, the Crown Prince in another. (I cannot elaborate on this point, just to be on the safe side.)
Corrections Department recommends pardon
Observer: “political timing”? No, it has to do with who was claiming to be insulted and the message that this case sends to others who want to write about this guy’s private life.
War and the Wa
The Shan State East Tatmadaw commander’s statement that “The Wa need to either surrender or become a local militia force under the Defense Services,” highlights some interesting parallels between 1) the current efforts of the SPDC to subsume at least some of the disparate ceasefire groups within the larger Tatmadaw and 2) the situation in central Burma in the mid 1950s where the AFPFL sought to consolidate local strongmen and their decentralised militia (who had earlier joined up to fight off the Japanese but had developed into their own little fiefdoms) within networks of local Socialist political leaders and then turn them into ‘field units’ and bring them under formal Tatmadaw authority. (On the latter, see Mary Callahan, Making Enemies, 2003).
At the time, the government and military needed to allow these disparate fiefdoms to continue as allies in order to be able to gradually extend and consolidate formal authority over what would have otherwise been anti-State insurgents. And now, as Aiontay notes, “The regime has effectively turned over territory in a feudal fashion in order to maintain control over the whole.” Similar to the Wa, the SPDC has reportedly ordered the DKBA to turn themselves, if superficially, into a border security force under the (at least nominal) authority of the SPDC. Or am I reaching a bit too far with this?
Lèse majesté and Harry Nicolaides
Another Thai,
I wouldn’t say I can discuss this sort of stuff openly with friends. In fact we have to be very discreet abt this and at first when u approach them, we need to be very careful coz we can never be too sure if they won’t get offended or reject our ideas right away.Some of my friends simply don’t want to discuss this and they will show clear sign from the beginning. Like u, I do not want to abolish the institution all anything like that. All I want is simply transaparency, accountability and the right to criticize ‘them’ constructively.
Lèse majesté and Harry Nicolaides
Joy ‘ I am glad that you have friends to discuss this openly,sadly in my case people around me seem to be the opposite, they can’t see that this law isn’t right and it is against human right (mind you what is it the human right for people in Thailand they won’t know would they? ) still like you said ” there is hope “
The medieval price
Everybody who opens his/her Lonely Planet will know about the “sentiment”. Honestly, I don’t believe a novel might contribute to the establishment/improvement of the human rights at all. As far as I read did the author lived in Thailand for quite a while. I don’t judge it it terms of “this is what happens” but in terms of “something to deny oneself” while being a guest or expat in the Kingdom of Thailand. Using the law to extinguish opposition is a completely different topic. PS: Great webiste by the way, thumbs up!
The medieval price
“Nero Hansen”:
I am getting very tired of the “when in Rome…” phrase. This can easily be turned around. As Thailand aspires to be part of the global community there are also certain universal rights, such as freedom of speech and thought.
The increasing sophism with which the draconian punishments for Lese Majeste are explained draw not just criticism from western countries, but from the Thai population as well.
There are no absolutes here, and Thailand is no more “special case” than any other country in the world is. A compromise between the national interest and the demands of the global community has to be worked out here. Punishments from 3 to 15 years jail for this offense, i am sorry, are no compromise.
The romanticism of absolute monarchy is completely unrealistic. Corruption happens in such systems as much as in any other system. In a democracy at least people have the opportunity to vote their representatives out of office. And there is the hope than one day a society of equal opportunities is created, under which excessive corruption will decrease.
There was more than a bit of criticism against Mother Theresa, by the way, for example her strong stand against birth control in a country that has a massive problem with overpopulation.
The medieval price
Nero: I haven’t got much to add to what Vox & Frank have already said above, and I think I am just about the last person on here to be asked to argue for the merits of democracy.
You asked: ‘what is a foreigner’s point to write about the monarchy?‘
If you are referring to Harry, then I don’t think one or two sentences in a few hundred page book really counts as writing about the monarchy – have you read the alleged offending sentence?
On the other hand, if you are referring to Handley’s TKNS, then I think one of the reasons Handley gave for writing the book was because no-one had done it before – I’m sure we all would have liked to have seen Thai’s be allowed to write such a book.
(but are they even allowed to read it?)
Lèse majesté and Harry Nicolaides
Dear Another Thai, I mostly agree with u but believe it or not (and this is good news) there are not just ‘a few of us’, there are more.At first, I felt the same way as u, but later on I discover that there are also many Thais who share our line of thoughts (both inside Thailand and abroad).. I even find some among my close friends!! ( we never discussed this ‘sensitive’ issue before until very recently). I believe there is hope that voice of dissent like us will strengthen and become more empowered day by day (although now those conservatives and right-wingers still dominate Thai political life).
The medieval price
Has someone re-published what he wrote? I feel as I always do in these cases, totally blind. How can you judge someone if you don’t know what his crime is – what he actually wrote? And who decides what is offensive? And how do you know it’s offensive if no one talks or writes about it?
War and the Wa
While the elections certainly are a factor, it was only a matter of time for this conflict to come about. The regime has effectively turned over territory in a feudal fashion in order to maintain control over the whole. Now they are in the process of solidifying control over the whole country which entails reasserting control over Wa, and other ceasefire groups, territory. There’s one snippet of information I’d like to know: what is China’s policy?
The medieval price
The old “If we are foreigners we have no business commenting on foreign affairs” argument! It never seems to fade away, even with wisdom.
These so-called sentiments, or sensitivities about the monarchy and over-emphasis on human rights and democracy and freedom of speech, these sentiments are not just sentiments. If they were, that would be fine. But the sentiments are translated into action, into harassment, into incitement, into criminal prosecution, into imprisonment, sometimes into death. They cease being sentiments when they are transformed into action – individual, group or collective, that removes inalienable rights of life, liberty, the pursuit of happiness, free speech and that democracy that many people are these days fond of blaming for the world’s ills.
Just because I am not married to my neighbor’s wife when he starts beating her to death does not mean I am not obligated to call the police.
Here in Thailand, the country and its agencies are, and have long been, covered by international human rights and free speech protections that are generally not safeguarded, promoted, permitted or recognized. this Thai Rome that some are wishful thinkers and apologists for wrongdoers are so fond of is not a Rome where people are, or should be, entitled to do what they want how they want. This is a global issue, and because it happens here in Thailand to involve a small group of Thais who share the same interests wiht foreigners, does not mean that the cause is wrong, unjust or should not be fought. Many Thais would like to be free to speak, to act, but many end up dead because of ‘sentiments.’
The medieval price
Nero & Jesse:
Your argument seeems to be ‘When in Rome, do as the Romans do.’ Which sounds reasonable, but is in fact absolute rubbish in this case.
In ancient Rome, ‘do as the Romans do’ would have meant keeping slaves, burning Christians, and raping children. Or perhaps we could phrase it as ‘When in Berlin, do as the Germans do’, and we all know where that leads. (Just broken Godwin’s law, but there you go . . . )
The point is that of course local traditions and customs should be respected by visitors, but equally obviously, there are just laws and unjust laws. And any law that places a person in jail for a three year sentence for one paragraph in a novel is unjust. Punishments must fit the crime, and in this case they patently do not.
The medieval price
nganadeeleg, but what is a foreigner’s point to write about the monarchy. especially, when he knew how sensitive that issue actually is. true, there are many people of your opinion and i am keeping my fingers crossed that Harry gets pardoned. as foreigners we should respect these thai sentiments and accept “roman” rules of the game, even if like them or not.
but some general question: what’s Thailand’s gain from democracy? corruption, vote-buying, populism? how about societal progress which actually came from wise monarchs such as Mongkut or Chulalongkorn? why is it mr. handley’s job criticize royal projects which “only worked out in propaganda”? did anybody blame mother teresa for the souls she didn’t save?
Corrections Department recommends pardon
Dear Ralph, I think this has to do with “political timing” of each case.
Dear Socratis, “This shows that there is still some sense in the Thai authority involved in Lèse majesté cases. ” What sense? A good sense of justice or a good one of political maneuvering for their own benefits?
Justice? I doubt very much that Da Torpedo would even get bail, let along a consideration to let her go. I doubt if two other Thais who also plead guilty would get pardoned the same way Nicolaides is being considered. (At least the news doesn’t mention them at all. Only Nicolaides is the case.)
With Nocolaides out soon, the annoying noise from Down Under would hopefully subside, if not completely gone. On the other hand, pardons to Thais would send an entirely different message domestically.
The only “sense” Thai authorities have in the lese majeste case may have nothing to do with justice.
Lèse majesté and Harry Nicolaides
We don’t like to second-guess or read between the lines. It is f-a-c-t that Amnesty International has been uncomfortably silent on Thailand’s lese majeste hysteria. However, when we use the word “political”, we must take care to define what we mean. AI is a huge bureaucracy and slow to act. To assume that AI Thailand is not putting forward this issue to the international human rights group because they have a hidden agenda for PAD is simply not fair. Lese majeste law is being used indiscriminately in Thailand across all political boundaries.]
http://facthai.wordpress.com/2009/02/17/no-amnesty-for-lese-majeste-giles-ji-ungphakorn/
Corrections Department recommends pardon
How come the process was different for Jufer? Or at least that seems the to have been the case. Sure, Jufer initially pleaded guilty, but the authorities don’t seem to have waited a full month for the appeal process for Jufer before sending him back to Switzerland. All very opaque. My presumption is that this has to do with who was said to have been slighted and to send a warning message.