Joy , believe it or not ,i have no interests what so ever about the king and politics in Thailand but Harry Nicolaides grabbed me the attention to search more about our very own country,and it shocked me to bits but it seemed only a few of us here and our voice s won’t be heard no doubt. I can’t even talk openly about this lese majeste with my own family let alone through the whole country,how sad that Thailand has become, in my opinion Thai people afraid to change and belive that they are happy as the way it is.
Not sure if this is welcome by all, but I think that given Harry’s book, and his efforts at writing it, and the fact that it has been sent to a lot of people via email, that it would be a nice gesture if those who received it are able to provide some sort of compensation for Harry for their copy. The Free Harry website has a bank account no., but not certain whether this is the best way to go. Any comments or suggestions?
Frank
Another useful resource on the situation of Muslims in Burma (although not focused specifically on those in Arakan State) is the 2002 Karen Human Rights Group (KHRG) report Easy Targets: The Persecution of Muslims in Burma. The report’s preface begins:
This report takes a look at the general persecution of Muslims in Burma through the eyes of Muslim villagers and townspeople. Emphasis is placed on the sizeable but mostly ignored Muslim population outside of Rakhine (Arakan) State… Successive Burmese regimes have encouraged or instigated violence against Muslims as a way of diverting the public’s attention away from economic or political concerns.
This shows that there is still some sense in the Thai authority involved in Lèse majesté cases. While this may never repair the damage done, it certainly eases up the tension surrounding the case. I see it as a good gesture extended by the Thai people towards foreigners as have been done in many cases before Harry Nicolaides. But don’t look at it as a step in the direction of abolishment of the Lèse majesté law. As I see it, Thailand is still a long way from that.
To Socratis: very glad to hear such a sensible view from a Thai like u. I’m Thai too and I couldn’t agree more with yr view regarding LM law. Thanks!I wish there were more and more intelligent and open-minded Thais like u and ‘another Thai’.
Don’t be sorry, I only want to know what your impression is (which I looked at in the Harry Nicolaides comments) — from many impressions it’s possible to make an analysis. The reason I refer to Craig Reynolds, kjf, Ralph Kramden, (also David Brown and nganadeeleg) as I look over this whole thread is that they are talking about this with distance, which is what I really should have said instead of referring to ‘objectivity’.. Even if you do have a leaning to one side or another, there doesn’t need to be a ‘the other team are wrong, buy up your hay bails and pitch forks now’, type response — which was the issue for me in the comments, not the content of the post itself. I am sorry for having bitten your response initially, but you see I am very bored and lonely at work, so being a tit comes easily.
[…] contribution to the literature. It has been published by ANU-E Press “as a tribute to Ananda Raja and his consummate skills as an ethnographer.” This is the first time it has been published […]
What is it for you? is the question that I misreferenced. That seemed, and seems to me to be a bit wide open to the idea that each person has his or her own impression and there is no real valid analysis possible.
Sorry.
Socratis !!! very nice way to put it, thanks goodness,i thought only me who have this weird idea ( claimed by the rest of thai population)
they asked me that if i am really thai nationality?,if iam thai, i must love the king and mustn’t betray the country (nice isn’t it) but i have nothing against the king though, keep up with your good work,
I can’t vouch for these because they don’t come directly from the source, but I think by crosschecking the texts from very different secondary sources we can conclude that they are true copies. Take your choice:
All are one side of the untrue information. Mr. Sonthi ,one of the main PAD leaders , used to praise Taksin as the best prime minister Thailand has ever had since 1932. He became hatred Taksin when not getting some favor benifits from Taksin. Every Thai knew that. Actually ,Sonthi has been bankrupted and done everthing for himself.
This media coercion is, I am afraid, much wider in scope and extent than just the lese majeste issue.
From my seven years’ experience imbedded with local media upcountry here in Thailand, I have noted time and time again that unpleasant news, investigative reporting, factual commentary and serious writing are not very popular. the local press quickly experience harsh advertising withdrawals or outright refusals to advertise, are told lies by local businessmen who think it’s funny to lead on a paper and not follow through on supporting it, and more.
My firm position these days is, when Thailand does something you do not like, make a lot of public noise and keep at it. Burma does this with Thailand all the time and gets its way.
And finally, kudos to the 50 year-old Thai for coming out and speaking the truth.
Ahbisit’s admission that it appeared official elements had towed the Roohinya out to sea and abandoned them was refreshingly frank, but failed to go far enough. He says he’s trying to find out who did it. I wouldn’t hold your breath waiting. No-0ne is going to step forward and admit guilt.
Ahbisit’s statement that the refugees were fleeing economic not political persecution is a meaningless distinction since one of the ways the Burmese regime is accused of carrying out political persecution is to to punish people economically, such as by burning their villages, stealing their animals, destroying their crops and sowing poison in their land.
Ahbisit would know this perfectly well, of course, since he’s a very smart and outward-looking person. Unfortunately, he appears to be a prisoner of the competing powers in Thailand at the moment and, since he appears to owe his position at least partly to tacit military support for the Democrats and his power does not rest on a popular majority of votes, I guess we can expect to see him walking a tightrope for some time to come. Perhaps elections would be a good idea later this year – if they delivered a popular majority to Ahbisit and the Democrats, and did not result in a revival of the Thaksin faction, which is, of course, a very big danger.
It is, of course, true that Thailand has a perfect right to defend its borders and favour its citizens over refugees from neighbouring countries. But Thailand also has international obligations to observe, and right now the eyes of the world are not too impressed with what they’re seeing. In such an environment, my opinion is that les majeste prosecutions just make the current government look weak and desperate.
Back at 1932? What is Thailand moving forward for you? Objective clarity would be knowing how the fishing line became tangled without having any particular leaning towards a democratic Thailand or an elite fascist one. If we are back at ‘the beginning’, we have only come full circle on being fools for thinking we had moved at all. People who are able to talk about this objectively (Craig Reynolds, Ralph Kramden, kjf) aren’t frothing at the mouth, supremely offended at every mention of their respective demon.
I never asked what’s in it for you, I told you that my motivation for knowing is to be able to see where Thailand can go from here. Seeing as you know what the issues are having accused me of not getting to them, I asked what an issue for you is…?
In response to some who had asked people to respect Thai laws and who argued that Thais have the right to think and decide for themselves, I have this to say.
First, I’m a Thai and I must say that I’m totally embarrassed by this draconian Thai law. Furthermore, the abusive enforcement of the law in recent years have caused widespread fear among the all Thais. This is clearly a repressive law.
When you say that Thais have the right to think and decide for themselves, I must ask who are the the Thais that decided in favor of the law? Certainly not me or any of my peers who are among the educated Thais. And not even by the majority of Thais who have been completely brainwashed by the constant propaganda for the royal family since I can remember. And I’m 50 years old.
This law was introduced since the era of the authoritarian military junta with no insignificant changes over the past 30 years. The law have never been put forward for public discussion. Even if it was, no one would dare discuss it openly.
One reason that Harry Nicolaides’ case, as in any other cases involving foreigners, have not received much publicity in Thailand and elsewhere is because the Thai authority have coerced the Thai media not to report the case. They have also been successful in persuading the people involved to keep quiet by suggesting the less publicity the case received, the more chance that the subject would get a royal pardon.
But Kavi is a supporter of both the PAD and the Democrat Party. I doubt if he is going to do much.
If you have been reading the Nation for the past months, it looks as if the paper has been the mouthpiece of the PAD and the Democrat. There is Pravit, however, who is perhaps the only one criticises the PAD and the Democrat.
Thanks very much for the link, Stephen. I guess Smith’s is as fair and full an account as one can possibly expect, indicated by the fact that it’s posted by the Arakan Rohingya National Organisation.
In the end I agree with some of the Arakanese Muslims that it is the ‘Islamic question’ they should take up and make common cause for religious freedom and minority rights with the rest of Burma, not simply an ethnicity issue, but rather compounded by a territorial issue which both the local majority Rakhine and the dominant Burman majority are never likely to come to a compromise.
Lèse majesté and Harry Nicolaides
Joy , believe it or not ,i have no interests what so ever about the king and politics in Thailand but Harry Nicolaides grabbed me the attention to search more about our very own country,and it shocked me to bits but it seemed only a few of us here and our voice s won’t be heard no doubt. I can’t even talk openly about this lese majeste with my own family let alone through the whole country,how sad that Thailand has become, in my opinion Thai people afraid to change and belive that they are happy as the way it is.
Corrections Department recommends pardon
Not sure if this is welcome by all, but I think that given Harry’s book, and his efforts at writing it, and the fact that it has been sent to a lot of people via email, that it would be a nice gesture if those who received it are able to provide some sort of compensation for Harry for their copy. The Free Harry website has a bank account no., but not certain whether this is the best way to go. Any comments or suggestions?
Frank
Rohingya
Another useful resource on the situation of Muslims in Burma (although not focused specifically on those in Arakan State) is the 2002 Karen Human Rights Group (KHRG) report Easy Targets: The Persecution of Muslims in Burma. The report’s preface begins:
Corrections Department recommends pardon
Good news indeed.
This shows that there is still some sense in the Thai authority involved in Lèse majesté cases. While this may never repair the damage done, it certainly eases up the tension surrounding the case. I see it as a good gesture extended by the Thai people towards foreigners as have been done in many cases before Harry Nicolaides. But don’t look at it as a step in the direction of abolishment of the Lèse majesté law. As I see it, Thailand is still a long way from that.
Lèse majesté and Harry Nicolaides
To Socratis: very glad to hear such a sensible view from a Thai like u. I’m Thai too and I couldn’t agree more with yr view regarding LM law. Thanks!I wish there were more and more intelligent and open-minded Thais like u and ‘another Thai’.
Giles leaves Thailand
Don’t be sorry, I only want to know what your impression is (which I looked at in the Harry Nicolaides comments) — from many impressions it’s possible to make an analysis. The reason I refer to Craig Reynolds, kjf, Ralph Kramden, (also David Brown and nganadeeleg) as I look over this whole thread is that they are talking about this with distance, which is what I really should have said instead of referring to ‘objectivity’.. Even if you do have a leaning to one side or another, there doesn’t need to be a ‘the other team are wrong, buy up your hay bails and pitch forks now’, type response — which was the issue for me in the comments, not the content of the post itself. I am sorry for having bitten your response initially, but you see I am very bored and lonely at work, so being a tit comes easily.
Ananda Rajah
[…] contribution to the literature. It has been published by ANU-E Press “as a tribute to Ananda Raja and his consummate skills as an ethnographer.” This is the first time it has been published […]
Giles leaves Thailand
What is it for you? is the question that I misreferenced. That seemed, and seems to me to be a bit wide open to the idea that each person has his or her own impression and there is no real valid analysis possible.
Sorry.
Lèse majesté and Harry Nicolaides
Socratis !!! very nice way to put it, thanks goodness,i thought only me who have this weird idea ( claimed by the rest of thai population)
they asked me that if i am really thai nationality?,if iam thai, i must love the king and mustn’t betray the country (nice isn’t it) but i have nothing against the king though, keep up with your good work,
Abhisit on lese majeste
It is crytal clear who works for or against who; why Mr. Abhisit bothers saying superfluous words?
Abhisit on lese majeste
I can’t vouch for these because they don’t come directly from the source, but I think by crosschecking the texts from very different secondary sources we can conclude that they are true copies. Take your choice:
http://www.prachatai.com/05web/th/home/14787
http://www.midnightuniv.org/forum/index.php?topic=10043.0
http://www.thaistopviolence.net/stopthaiviolence/stop/Stop1.doc
http://mblog.manager.co.th/phakri/th-27124/
All turned up via Google search
PAD’s last day at Government House
All are one side of the untrue information. Mr. Sonthi ,one of the main PAD leaders , used to praise Taksin as the best prime minister Thailand has ever had since 1932. He became hatred Taksin when not getting some favor benifits from Taksin. Every Thai knew that. Actually ,Sonthi has been bankrupted and done everthing for himself.
Lèse majesté and Harry Nicolaides
This media coercion is, I am afraid, much wider in scope and extent than just the lese majeste issue.
From my seven years’ experience imbedded with local media upcountry here in Thailand, I have noted time and time again that unpleasant news, investigative reporting, factual commentary and serious writing are not very popular. the local press quickly experience harsh advertising withdrawals or outright refusals to advertise, are told lies by local businessmen who think it’s funny to lead on a paper and not follow through on supporting it, and more.
My firm position these days is, when Thailand does something you do not like, make a lot of public noise and keep at it. Burma does this with Thailand all the time and gets its way.
And finally, kudos to the 50 year-old Thai for coming out and speaking the truth.
Abhisit’s human rights challenge
Ahbisit’s admission that it appeared official elements had towed the Roohinya out to sea and abandoned them was refreshingly frank, but failed to go far enough. He says he’s trying to find out who did it. I wouldn’t hold your breath waiting. No-0ne is going to step forward and admit guilt.
Ahbisit’s statement that the refugees were fleeing economic not political persecution is a meaningless distinction since one of the ways the Burmese regime is accused of carrying out political persecution is to to punish people economically, such as by burning their villages, stealing their animals, destroying their crops and sowing poison in their land.
Ahbisit would know this perfectly well, of course, since he’s a very smart and outward-looking person. Unfortunately, he appears to be a prisoner of the competing powers in Thailand at the moment and, since he appears to owe his position at least partly to tacit military support for the Democrats and his power does not rest on a popular majority of votes, I guess we can expect to see him walking a tightrope for some time to come. Perhaps elections would be a good idea later this year – if they delivered a popular majority to Ahbisit and the Democrats, and did not result in a revival of the Thaksin faction, which is, of course, a very big danger.
It is, of course, true that Thailand has a perfect right to defend its borders and favour its citizens over refugees from neighbouring countries. But Thailand also has international obligations to observe, and right now the eyes of the world are not too impressed with what they’re seeing. In such an environment, my opinion is that les majeste prosecutions just make the current government look weak and desperate.
Giles leaves Thailand
Back at 1932? What is Thailand moving forward for you? Objective clarity would be knowing how the fishing line became tangled without having any particular leaning towards a democratic Thailand or an elite fascist one. If we are back at ‘the beginning’, we have only come full circle on being fools for thinking we had moved at all. People who are able to talk about this objectively (Craig Reynolds, Ralph Kramden, kjf) aren’t frothing at the mouth, supremely offended at every mention of their respective demon.
I never asked what’s in it for you, I told you that my motivation for knowing is to be able to see where Thailand can go from here. Seeing as you know what the issues are having accused me of not getting to them, I asked what an issue for you is…?
Lèse majesté and Harry Nicolaides
In response to some who had asked people to respect Thai laws and who argued that Thais have the right to think and decide for themselves, I have this to say.
First, I’m a Thai and I must say that I’m totally embarrassed by this draconian Thai law. Furthermore, the abusive enforcement of the law in recent years have caused widespread fear among the all Thais. This is clearly a repressive law.
When you say that Thais have the right to think and decide for themselves, I must ask who are the the Thais that decided in favor of the law? Certainly not me or any of my peers who are among the educated Thais. And not even by the majority of Thais who have been completely brainwashed by the constant propaganda for the royal family since I can remember. And I’m 50 years old.
This law was introduced since the era of the authoritarian military junta with no insignificant changes over the past 30 years. The law have never been put forward for public discussion. Even if it was, no one would dare discuss it openly.
One reason that Harry Nicolaides’ case, as in any other cases involving foreigners, have not received much publicity in Thailand and elsewhere is because the Thai authority have coerced the Thai media not to report the case. They have also been successful in persuading the people involved to keep quiet by suggesting the less publicity the case received, the more chance that the subject would get a royal pardon.
Giles in Oxford: Lese majeste in Thailand
He is one of the Thais that can make a different in the country.
I also made up my mind to join any up coming groups in Thailand in this manner…
I am Thai and I need this paradigm shift to be heard to Thais and the rest of the world…
A chance to discuss media freedom
But Kavi is a supporter of both the PAD and the Democrat Party. I doubt if he is going to do much.
If you have been reading the Nation for the past months, it looks as if the paper has been the mouthpiece of the PAD and the Democrat. There is Pravit, however, who is perhaps the only one criticises the PAD and the Democrat.
Rohingya
Thanks very much for the link, Stephen. I guess Smith’s is as fair and full an account as one can possibly expect, indicated by the fact that it’s posted by the Arakan Rohingya National Organisation.
In the end I agree with some of the Arakanese Muslims that it is the ‘Islamic question’ they should take up and make common cause for religious freedom and minority rights with the rest of Burma, not simply an ethnicity issue, but rather compounded by a territorial issue which both the local majority Rakhine and the dominant Burman majority are never likely to come to a compromise.
Volunteering to fight in Burma
1.Ann.Pado Mahn Sha,
Padoh Mahn Sha Lah Phan, General Secretary of the Karen National Union, was assasinated on 14th February 2008.
http://picasaweb.google.com/lunswe/1stPDMS#