I plan on leaving Thailand next month after ten years living here. Thailand is descending quickly into an even more polarized society, where the rich get away with murder (literally!) and the poor and those foreigners who become a ‘problem’ are thrown in jail.
If you live in Thailand, be well aware you can be arrested and charged for making any statement about a person in power and there’s nothing anyone will do about it. Thais are known to be apathetic about most things, so they’re certainly not going to protest these ridiculous lese majeste laws either.
If you’re a tourist, I recommend you steer clear of Thailand. Why spend your money supporting this new regime (and that’s what it is, it’s not a government) that will do nothing to help the poor but will only continue to prop up the rich and socially elite.
We can agree to disagree on many many political actors, events, and the implications of fact.
But I hope we don’t disagree on the middle-age draconian treatment given to Harry Nicolaides. The poor guy… it’s not as Bruno says “when in Rome…”
there is a right to decency.
The LM law can exist, I do not call for an abolishment of it. I just state, as always, that the ‘injured party’ be the complainer, not some obscure police man.
Dearest Fellows!
Personally I am not one who is promoting laws in foreign countries! In my own – different matter!
I never visited countries which in my opinion dont support human rights and I will not do it in the futur! But if for this or other reason (dont say never *)))I will find myself in one of them I will act according to local customs and laws.
Imposing Australian, US or European so call “democracie” in this or other part of the world allways are finishing badly. Best example Irak. Junior was trying to export american democracie and as a result almost 650.000 or 800.000 today are dead!
If Nicolaides decided to go to Thailand looking for job – he had all rights to do so. But he should not be involved in local politics. Or maybe this way he was trying to advertise his book?
Hey Mary,
Any time you want to see for yourself, I will take you in, but perhaps a better staring point, and certainly safer, would be the refugee camps stretched along the border.
At the moment it is not safe for anyone.
This morning about 150 of us gathered at a Mya family compound to mark the late General Bo Mya’s life and give thanks for the New Year and the fact we are still alive.
Bo Mya would have been 82 today.
It was a moving and uplifting ceremony.
Every single person there wanted the war to takes its place on the shelves of history and gather dust.
But less than an hour’s drive from where we gathered between 300 and 400 men, three DKBA battalions and one SPDC battalion, had 100 KNLA soldiers surrounded at Wah Lay Kee, base camp of Sixth Brigade’s 201st battali0n.
They are now about 500m from the camp, poised to strike.
The same goes for 202 battalion, to Mae Sot’s north, but the enemy there is three battalions of SPDC, or about 300 men.
Mae Tawahwah, nearby, but further inside, is also reportedly full of SPDC reinforcements.
They are moving into position, but they have not yet attacked.
101 battalion, consisting of about 160 KNLA soldiers and seven nurses, to the northwest of Mae La refugee camp is involved in fighting daily.
And intense fighting has broken out in both Shan and Karenni states.
Nerdah bluntly says all this activity is a concerted push to quash insurgents before the 2010 ‘elections’ so the SPDC and its US public relations firms can manage an effective whitewash that will insitutionalise the miltary in the ‘democratic process’.
Dan
What’s more, the charge against Nicolaides is based on a THAI TRANSLATION of the 3 sentences in question. We will never know if it is even an accurate translation because the judge declared that nobody was allowed to repeat the offending words in court.
I urge everyone here to encourage as many people around the world to follow this case, as well as that of of Giles Ji Ungkaporn and others so that something is done to stop this madness.
How much worse are things in Thailand going to get before they get better?
Back in December 2005, after having been maligned, defamed, incited against, threatened and assaulted, my Thai wife appeared in court as plaintiff against a local radio personality and benefactor of a local Buddhist abbot. The trial took three days to complete.
I was one of the witnesses and observers.
When one monk testified to confirm our version of events, the village idiot – that is, defendant – shouted out three times, “Your honor, he’s lying.” Did the judge admonish her? Not at all.
Outside in the court hallway, when I mentioned to my wife that any stupid evidence that was submitted would not be accepted by the court, the idiot happened to be standing nearby. She went to the judge and screamed that I had called her stupid. So what did the judge do? He got everyone together and condescendingly admonished everyone not to talk bad about the other.
Lessons: Justice is difficult to find anywhere, but in Thailand you will be looking longer than in most other places, save perhaps Burma and Saudi Arabia. Even when a Thai screams out in open court during a hearing that the witness is a liar, the judge did nothing. When he was lied to, he took action. So why would Harry expect much different?
Any compassion, any tolerance, any sense of decency on the part of those who felt miffed by that short paragraph in Harry’s book? Not at all.
I really don’t know what can be done about this Thai style Salem witch trial. I would not mind joining a boycott, protest, campaign or other, but what can we accomplish? Anyone for a letter-writing campaign addressed to the CP directly?
Surely this would thin our the expatriate population in Thailand…
Well .. no more holidays in Thailand for me. Stuck in airports, riots .. and now I have to worry that if I mutter something innocuous that might upset the King then I’ll be thrown in gaol for 5-10 years.
That’s the sort of ‘democracy’ that reminds me of another ‘democracy’, one that likes to call itself ‘The World’s Largest Democracy’.
As to those who suggest visitors should respect Thai law, I agree. In fact, Thailand should require all inbound airlines to make an announcement that Thailand is the home of medieval laws, and that saying anything about the King might land you in jail. that should solve their problem with tourists .. they’ll stop coming.
Dear Thai
Please respect ” Law” of other counties !!
I do believe everyone is respected law by common sense, especially when law is regarding to general use for equal human right. But this is not. It is just only used to protect some people. So,I will call, it is a rule of untouchable.
We are living in modren world. We can not just do only what we wanted to do. We must learn to respect others people when we are still needed them to come to our country.
Freebird170 is correct in his statement regarding foreign soldiers in a training and morale mode. There is no need to involve foreign volunteers in combat roles.
They should be kept way out of harms way, and instead be utilized in training fighters in strategy and tactics. Western soldiers have much to offer in this area.
Additionally, he is also correct in supporting the idea of taking the war directly to the doorsteps of the junta. Small teams operating in the cities would have a devastating effect on the morale of the junta.
At present, the officers of the junta see themselves as masters of all they survey. How their lives would change if they knew that everytime they left home they would be a target – on the street, in a store, at the barbers, at their mistress’.
How comfortable would they be to know that their own wives and children were in mortal danger, just as the women and children of the Shan, Mon, Karen and Wa are?
For those of you who might state that the resistance shouldn’t lower themselves to the level of the junta, I submit that this may be the only way to counter the overwhelming firepower and numbers of the junta.
It wouldn’t take more than a hundred or so men and women to do it, nor would it take very long.
I have long felt that the junta is a house of cards. It is run by old men, hiding in fortified garrisons, issuing orders. They are like the man behind the curtain in The Wizard of Oz. Don’t look behind the curtain.
The entire apparatus of the regime is based on, run on, fear. The average soldier is in fear of his superior, who is in turn in fear of someone higher up. And so on and on.
The trick is to skip a few people and go for the colonels and majors. Then the system will rapidly begin to falter and break down.
Before you start in on me about what a cold blooded thing I’m proposing, I would state that the people of Burma don’t have twenty more years, or even ten more years. They need to act now.
Freebird, thanks. Exactly my point…i do and am trying to gain a better understanding. That was no lecture, by the way. i am just a tourist here who noticed cyber bullets being fired, and thought some diversion would help. lol. So i am spending as many golden moments as possible perusing this thread, as well as various links of interest.
i found KHCPS to have some of the information i needed. btw, Gandhi is one historical figure I have always admired.
Bruno are you serious? I know your beliefs are medieval and primitive, but the fact is, speaking on behalf of Australians, we view this as a total misgiving of justice. In this country we enjoy certain rights under our national constitution and one of them is freedom of speech. This right is integral for the process of democracy. This attitude id in Rome do like Romans is the just the kind of narcissistic thinking and belief system of an individual with a limited education. I find it disgusting the state of Mr. Nicolaides situation as it is widely known the primal conditions of South East Asian gaols. Knowing Thai people quite well I can assure you they look at this in a bad light. Even though it is there King and he is very revered by them, they have an attitude that suggests foreigners are allowed their views as well as the next one. After all when Thai students come to this country we receive more than our fair share of criticism of the Queen and of our Government. So please have some compassion for this mans situation, and open the gates of your enclave as it does you a great deal to understand what happens outside the walls.
If we were to uphold a law jailing people for saying idiotic things about others then many of us who contribute to this website would be behind bars.
The irony is that for people to have any self-conscious responsibility for what they say, they must be given the freedom to say it, and in many cases this results in ‘irresponsible’ expressions, which then partially fill websites like this one with nonsense. But if they are not given the freedom to say what they want, then equally, they cannot be held accountable for what they say.
In an environment where the slightest hint of negativity in statements about royalty in Thailand leads to jail terms, it is not possible to take seriously anyone who says they ‘love’ the king. Well, of course they do! They simply don’t have the opportunity, or have never had the chance to developed the will, to express ideas about power and authority in a more sophisticated way. And they react violently to the suggestion that their particular force-fed view of power and authority causes violence against people who have different ideas, thus confirming that very violence.
There are many people like “Thai” in Thailand. They are stupid, ignorant and cruel but they have powerful backing . So many Thais will say ‘it serves him right’.. I don’t know what sort of mentality they have. I’m Thai as well. Please campaign for the amendment or even repeal of LM laws through whatever means u guys can think of, and count me in. I believe there are yet other Thais who feel angry and frustrated by this horrible injustice, and willing to show support for yr campaign.
I’m very sad and frustrated too. I don’t know what else can be done. I”m also furious !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!THIs IS THAILAND and ther e are so many people like the one who called himself/herself “Thai” on the other thread!! So many people like him/her !!! And they are often bold enough to speak fro all Thais… This is outrageous but I see no light at the end of the tunnel for Thai people who disagree with that ‘Thai’….
The people of Thailand need to come to terms with the antiquated notion of “monarchy”. In the USA today we see great changes as a result of democracy; maybe this can serve as an example for their national political evolution.
Section 133: Whoever, defaming, insulting or threatening the Sovereign, Queen, Consort, Heir-apparent or Head of Foreign State, shall be imprisoned from one to seven years or fined from two thousand to fourteen thousand baht, or both.
so, also be careful what you say about Kevin Rudd, Putin, the pres of Kazakhstan, etc while in Thailand
unless you are a member of the Thai ruling elite or its supporters (pro tem) in which case you are probably allowed to say anything you like about anyone
I’m hearing all of these things about the Dublin conference lately. I too would like to see a change in peaceful revolution leadership… but I don’t know how one could realistically implement that. I wouldn’t suggest starting a new organization though, that’s for sure. We have 10,000 different exile govt orgs, all doing nothing. As another of my good friends says, “10,000 times nothing is still nothing.”
These responses are getting cretinous. One really has to wonder about their reasons for writing such silliness. Can’t get their facts right or their spelling. None of these persons have read the book because it just isn’t available. They don’t question whether there can be good laws and bad laws and nor do they question the political uses of laws. One suspects there are particular reasons for never having been on NM and then suddenly showing up with uniformed rants.
By the way, if you did want to think about the case, the BBC has an excellent report on the Nicolaides case, and in the circumstances, quite brave.
I have read Harry’s book, and such a tiny amount of it refers to the Thai Monarchy (5 lines from 200 something pages). The whole story of his novel is about something else, totally unrelated to the Monarchy. I believe this is more of an innocent crime, he obviously had no intention to use his book to criticise the Thai monarchy. His case cannot be compared to any of the cases given by the comments above.
I feel so sorry for him. Please do not readily criticise him without knowing enough information on what he actually did. The only crime he did was just the clumsiness that harmed no one but himself. In addition, he just fell victim of the present madness of Thai politics. His charge was driven by the fear of the Thai conservative that their monarchy will be exposed to the fair analysis by foreign media. The treatment that Harry received at the moment is so cruel and unjust. He deserves an apology from Thailand, and support from foreigners.
Facebook 
Twitter 
Soundcloud 
Youtube 
Rss
Statement on Harry Nicolaides
I plan on leaving Thailand next month after ten years living here. Thailand is descending quickly into an even more polarized society, where the rich get away with murder (literally!) and the poor and those foreigners who become a ‘problem’ are thrown in jail.
If you live in Thailand, be well aware you can be arrested and charged for making any statement about a person in power and there’s nothing anyone will do about it. Thais are known to be apathetic about most things, so they’re certainly not going to protest these ridiculous lese majeste laws either.
If you’re a tourist, I recommend you steer clear of Thailand. Why spend your money supporting this new regime (and that’s what it is, it’s not a government) that will do nothing to help the poor but will only continue to prop up the rich and socially elite.
Statement on Harry Nicolaides
Poor Poor Harry.
We can agree to disagree on many many political actors, events, and the implications of fact.
But I hope we don’t disagree on the middle-age draconian treatment given to Harry Nicolaides. The poor guy… it’s not as Bruno says “when in Rome…”
there is a right to decency.
The LM law can exist, I do not call for an abolishment of it. I just state, as always, that the ‘injured party’ be the complainer, not some obscure police man.
so sad 🙁
Statement on Harry Nicolaides
Dearest Fellows!
Personally I am not one who is promoting laws in foreign countries! In my own – different matter!
I never visited countries which in my opinion dont support human rights and I will not do it in the futur! But if for this or other reason (dont say never *)))I will find myself in one of them I will act according to local customs and laws.
Imposing Australian, US or European so call “democracie” in this or other part of the world allways are finishing badly. Best example Irak. Junior was trying to export american democracie and as a result almost 650.000 or 800.000 today are dead!
If Nicolaides decided to go to Thailand looking for job – he had all rights to do so. But he should not be involved in local politics. Or maybe this way he was trying to advertise his book?
Volunteering to fight in Burma
Hey Mary,
Any time you want to see for yourself, I will take you in, but perhaps a better staring point, and certainly safer, would be the refugee camps stretched along the border.
At the moment it is not safe for anyone.
This morning about 150 of us gathered at a Mya family compound to mark the late General Bo Mya’s life and give thanks for the New Year and the fact we are still alive.
Bo Mya would have been 82 today.
It was a moving and uplifting ceremony.
Every single person there wanted the war to takes its place on the shelves of history and gather dust.
But less than an hour’s drive from where we gathered between 300 and 400 men, three DKBA battalions and one SPDC battalion, had 100 KNLA soldiers surrounded at Wah Lay Kee, base camp of Sixth Brigade’s 201st battali0n.
They are now about 500m from the camp, poised to strike.
The same goes for 202 battalion, to Mae Sot’s north, but the enemy there is three battalions of SPDC, or about 300 men.
Mae Tawahwah, nearby, but further inside, is also reportedly full of SPDC reinforcements.
They are moving into position, but they have not yet attacked.
101 battalion, consisting of about 160 KNLA soldiers and seven nurses, to the northwest of Mae La refugee camp is involved in fighting daily.
And intense fighting has broken out in both Shan and Karenni states.
Nerdah bluntly says all this activity is a concerted push to quash insurgents before the 2010 ‘elections’ so the SPDC and its US public relations firms can manage an effective whitewash that will insitutionalise the miltary in the ‘democratic process’.
Dan
Statement on Harry Nicolaides
What’s more, the charge against Nicolaides is based on a THAI TRANSLATION of the 3 sentences in question. We will never know if it is even an accurate translation because the judge declared that nobody was allowed to repeat the offending words in court.
I urge everyone here to encourage as many people around the world to follow this case, as well as that of of Giles Ji Ungkaporn and others so that something is done to stop this madness.
How much worse are things in Thailand going to get before they get better?
Statement on Harry Nicolaides
My experience with the Thai courts…
Back in December 2005, after having been maligned, defamed, incited against, threatened and assaulted, my Thai wife appeared in court as plaintiff against a local radio personality and benefactor of a local Buddhist abbot. The trial took three days to complete.
I was one of the witnesses and observers.
When one monk testified to confirm our version of events, the village idiot – that is, defendant – shouted out three times, “Your honor, he’s lying.” Did the judge admonish her? Not at all.
Outside in the court hallway, when I mentioned to my wife that any stupid evidence that was submitted would not be accepted by the court, the idiot happened to be standing nearby. She went to the judge and screamed that I had called her stupid. So what did the judge do? He got everyone together and condescendingly admonished everyone not to talk bad about the other.
Lessons: Justice is difficult to find anywhere, but in Thailand you will be looking longer than in most other places, save perhaps Burma and Saudi Arabia. Even when a Thai screams out in open court during a hearing that the witness is a liar, the judge did nothing. When he was lied to, he took action. So why would Harry expect much different?
Any compassion, any tolerance, any sense of decency on the part of those who felt miffed by that short paragraph in Harry’s book? Not at all.
I really don’t know what can be done about this Thai style Salem witch trial. I would not mind joining a boycott, protest, campaign or other, but what can we accomplish? Anyone for a letter-writing campaign addressed to the CP directly?
Surely this would thin our the expatriate population in Thailand…
Lèse majesté and Harry Nicolaides
Well .. no more holidays in Thailand for me. Stuck in airports, riots .. and now I have to worry that if I mutter something innocuous that might upset the King then I’ll be thrown in gaol for 5-10 years.
That’s the sort of ‘democracy’ that reminds me of another ‘democracy’, one that likes to call itself ‘The World’s Largest Democracy’.
As to those who suggest visitors should respect Thai law, I agree. In fact, Thailand should require all inbound airlines to make an announcement that Thailand is the home of medieval laws, and that saying anything about the King might land you in jail. that should solve their problem with tourists .. they’ll stop coming.
Lèse majesté and Harry Nicolaides
Dear Thai
Please respect ” Law” of other counties !!
I do believe everyone is respected law by common sense, especially when law is regarding to general use for equal human right. But this is not. It is just only used to protect some people. So,I will call, it is a rule of untouchable.
We are living in modren world. We can not just do only what we wanted to do. We must learn to respect others people when we are still needed them to come to our country.
Volunteering to fight in Burma
Freebird170 is correct in his statement regarding foreign soldiers in a training and morale mode. There is no need to involve foreign volunteers in combat roles.
They should be kept way out of harms way, and instead be utilized in training fighters in strategy and tactics. Western soldiers have much to offer in this area.
Additionally, he is also correct in supporting the idea of taking the war directly to the doorsteps of the junta. Small teams operating in the cities would have a devastating effect on the morale of the junta.
At present, the officers of the junta see themselves as masters of all they survey. How their lives would change if they knew that everytime they left home they would be a target – on the street, in a store, at the barbers, at their mistress’.
How comfortable would they be to know that their own wives and children were in mortal danger, just as the women and children of the Shan, Mon, Karen and Wa are?
For those of you who might state that the resistance shouldn’t lower themselves to the level of the junta, I submit that this may be the only way to counter the overwhelming firepower and numbers of the junta.
It wouldn’t take more than a hundred or so men and women to do it, nor would it take very long.
I have long felt that the junta is a house of cards. It is run by old men, hiding in fortified garrisons, issuing orders. They are like the man behind the curtain in The Wizard of Oz. Don’t look behind the curtain.
The entire apparatus of the regime is based on, run on, fear. The average soldier is in fear of his superior, who is in turn in fear of someone higher up. And so on and on.
The trick is to skip a few people and go for the colonels and majors. Then the system will rapidly begin to falter and break down.
Before you start in on me about what a cold blooded thing I’m proposing, I would state that the people of Burma don’t have twenty more years, or even ten more years. They need to act now.
Volunteering to fight in Burma
Freebird, thanks. Exactly my point…i do and am trying to gain a better understanding. That was no lecture, by the way. i am just a tourist here who noticed cyber bullets being fired, and thought some diversion would help. lol. So i am spending as many golden moments as possible perusing this thread, as well as various links of interest.
i found KHCPS to have some of the information i needed. btw, Gandhi is one historical figure I have always admired.
Statement on Harry Nicolaides
Bruno are you serious? I know your beliefs are medieval and primitive, but the fact is, speaking on behalf of Australians, we view this as a total misgiving of justice. In this country we enjoy certain rights under our national constitution and one of them is freedom of speech. This right is integral for the process of democracy. This attitude id in Rome do like Romans is the just the kind of narcissistic thinking and belief system of an individual with a limited education. I find it disgusting the state of Mr. Nicolaides situation as it is widely known the primal conditions of South East Asian gaols. Knowing Thai people quite well I can assure you they look at this in a bad light. Even though it is there King and he is very revered by them, they have an attitude that suggests foreigners are allowed their views as well as the next one. After all when Thai students come to this country we receive more than our fair share of criticism of the Queen and of our Government. So please have some compassion for this mans situation, and open the gates of your enclave as it does you a great deal to understand what happens outside the walls.
Statement on Harry Nicolaides
If we were to uphold a law jailing people for saying idiotic things about others then many of us who contribute to this website would be behind bars.
The irony is that for people to have any self-conscious responsibility for what they say, they must be given the freedom to say it, and in many cases this results in ‘irresponsible’ expressions, which then partially fill websites like this one with nonsense. But if they are not given the freedom to say what they want, then equally, they cannot be held accountable for what they say.
In an environment where the slightest hint of negativity in statements about royalty in Thailand leads to jail terms, it is not possible to take seriously anyone who says they ‘love’ the king. Well, of course they do! They simply don’t have the opportunity, or have never had the chance to developed the will, to express ideas about power and authority in a more sophisticated way. And they react violently to the suggestion that their particular force-fed view of power and authority causes violence against people who have different ideas, thus confirming that very violence.
Lèse majesté and Harry Nicolaides
There are many people like “Thai” in Thailand. They are stupid, ignorant and cruel but they have powerful backing . So many Thais will say ‘it serves him right’.. I don’t know what sort of mentality they have. I’m Thai as well. Please campaign for the amendment or even repeal of LM laws through whatever means u guys can think of, and count me in. I believe there are yet other Thais who feel angry and frustrated by this horrible injustice, and willing to show support for yr campaign.
Nicolaides: Australia should do more
I’m Thai and i’ll say that it’s Thailand policy of Narrowmindedness. That’s all.
Update on Harry Nicolaides
I’m very sad and frustrated too. I don’t know what else can be done. I”m also furious !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!THIs IS THAILAND and ther e are so many people like the one who called himself/herself “Thai” on the other thread!! So many people like him/her !!! And they are often bold enough to speak fro all Thais… This is outrageous but I see no light at the end of the tunnel for Thai people who disagree with that ‘Thai’….
Lèse majesté and Harry Nicolaides
The people of Thailand need to come to terms with the antiquated notion of “monarchy”. In the USA today we see great changes as a result of democracy; maybe this can serve as an example for their national political evolution.
Statement on Harry Nicolaides
note that Thai law also prohibits:
Section 133: Whoever, defaming, insulting or threatening the Sovereign, Queen, Consort, Heir-apparent or Head of Foreign State, shall be imprisoned from one to seven years or fined from two thousand to fourteen thousand baht, or both.
so, also be careful what you say about Kevin Rudd, Putin, the pres of Kazakhstan, etc while in Thailand
unless you are a member of the Thai ruling elite or its supporters (pro tem) in which case you are probably allowed to say anything you like about anyone
Volunteering to fight in Burma
I’m hearing all of these things about the Dublin conference lately. I too would like to see a change in peaceful revolution leadership… but I don’t know how one could realistically implement that. I wouldn’t suggest starting a new organization though, that’s for sure. We have 10,000 different exile govt orgs, all doing nothing. As another of my good friends says, “10,000 times nothing is still nothing.”
Statement on Harry Nicolaides
These responses are getting cretinous. One really has to wonder about their reasons for writing such silliness. Can’t get their facts right or their spelling. None of these persons have read the book because it just isn’t available. They don’t question whether there can be good laws and bad laws and nor do they question the political uses of laws. One suspects there are particular reasons for never having been on NM and then suddenly showing up with uniformed rants.
By the way, if you did want to think about the case, the BBC has an excellent report on the Nicolaides case, and in the circumstances, quite brave.
Statement on Harry Nicolaides
I have read Harry’s book, and such a tiny amount of it refers to the Thai Monarchy (5 lines from 200 something pages). The whole story of his novel is about something else, totally unrelated to the Monarchy. I believe this is more of an innocent crime, he obviously had no intention to use his book to criticise the Thai monarchy. His case cannot be compared to any of the cases given by the comments above.
I feel so sorry for him. Please do not readily criticise him without knowing enough information on what he actually did. The only crime he did was just the clumsiness that harmed no one but himself. In addition, he just fell victim of the present madness of Thai politics. His charge was driven by the fear of the Thai conservative that their monarchy will be exposed to the fair analysis by foreign media. The treatment that Harry received at the moment is so cruel and unjust. He deserves an apology from Thailand, and support from foreigners.