The United States, and perhaps a few other countries, have enacted laws, making it a crime for Americans to go to places like Cambodia, Thailand, etc., to partake of child prostitutes.
There was a well publicized case recently of an American who was chased around the globe before being captured. He had engaged the services of child prostitutes, and photographed himself doing so. Apparently to show to his friends back home:, “look what I did on my summer vacation”.
I personally find child prostitution to be evil. Those engaging in it, either as customers or procurers, should be killed, with all their assets given to the victims.
Like yourself, I would like to see Burma remain as one country, with a certain amount of autonomy. The various groups have to have some sort of protection in a country dominated by Burmans.
Additionally, religious freedoms have to be protected. The Christian Karens must have protection against persecution.
The relationship between Burma and China needs to be reassessed as well, with a hard line taken on territorial integrity. Burma would be best served by becoming nonaligned, I believe. A political football for neither East or West.
First things first, Charles F. Talk about ‘Balkanisation’ is not only premature but counterproductive. It plays into the hands of the generals ; it’s their raison d’etre after all – holding the union together. It is also, unsurprisingly, the junta apologists’ favourite line of argument. We’ve had more than our fair share of Ne Wins and Than Shwes, thank you very much.
Granted it is a possible scenario, but is it probable once the military dictatorship that has denied genuine political resolution of all the important issues all along is out of the picture? Burma is not Yugoslavia. Burmans make up at least two thirds of the population. More importantly, the majority of the nationalities has reflected long and hard on their long history of armed struggle, and shifted their political goal from independence to autonomy in a democratic federation.
So, shall we cross that bridge when we actually get there? Call it wishful thinking, but give us a break. Let’s give genuine, not sham, dialogue a chance once the gunfire dies down and the smoke settles after the junta is gone for good.
I saw the documentary Kristof made a few years ago as we follow him around the child brothels of Cambodia while he befriends some of the young prostitutes in an effort to “save” them by “buying them out” so they are free to go back to their impoverished rural villages.
On a return trip, he is then “surprised” and “disillusioned” to find that at least one of the girls he “bought out” has returned to her brothel, apparently of her own free will. We then watch her chatting with Kristof in a friendly, smiling and seductive way before excusing herself to go into the back with a regular “customer” who has arrived.
This story seemed very familiar and has played out many times in many bars, KTV’s and massage venues throughout SE Asia and there always seems to be a lurking ambiguity in the story’s subtext………..
As I have recalled, There was a small Red gathering at a hotel in Phuket.
They were attached badly by the Yellow. It was a very small local new
the end of November 08, if i remember correctly.
Nitwit.
Well, there’s a nice way to condemn a man when down. I continue to be dismayed by the lack of negativity proffered by many uneducated like you on those that have made an educated decision to speak the truth, or fiction.
The real freedom of writers should not be witheld or censored if we are to maintain some sort of democracy in the 21st century. Thailand is a democracy and its archaic laws need to reflect that.
Calling an inprisoned man a nitwit is like asking a man with one leg to beat you another with two capable ones to duel in a football game.
Those with any sense of justice or sanity will laugh at your ludicrous comments and carry on with getting Harry the rights to freedom like anyone in his position is entitled to.
Long Pross’ new minder does indeed show Kristoff some former underground rooms. Are they basement dungeons?
Kristof says: “sure there are many girls who work voluntarily in brothels”. He should talk with some of them to see how their lives have changed since the Cambodian government passed a new US sponsored antitrafficking law. This might restore his credibility.
Sex trafficking makes diseases control nearly impossible, so wide spread of HIV in this country is something inevitable. Hopefully the Cambodian government will realize their problem in time and address it in an appropriate way. Or else we will have another HIV hotspot to deal with, like we used to have in Africa.
BTW, Kristof’s sentiment is understandable. Brothels with or without basement dungeons make any difference! The girls could be tortured in any darken rooms misinterpreted as dungeons. Does it mean the whole story is a misunderstand too?
Likewise, thanks for this post. I wasn’t aware of this issue of Humanitarian Exchange. It is good to see that some of this content got a suitable forum. Especially notable were Hedlund and Myint Su’s comment that for INGOs,
“demands to demonstrate and report on outputs were immense. This barely left room for staff to notice what communities were already doing for themselves, or to implement even the most basic measures of downwards accountability. Few distribution committees were answerable to communities. Few INGOs provided information to communities on their agency and their (planned or actual) intervention, or systematic feedback and response mechanisms, let alone participatory approaches.”
And in the ATP staff’s article, “Helping the Heroes”
“it [the operating environment] forced us to view the target group as the initiators and managers of their own relief interventions, not as helpless victims needing massive outside help. What the victims of Nargis really needed was for us to trust them – to trust them as the decision-makers and implementers of their own relief and recovery response.”
Separately, regarding the limited references to psychological consequencese, there is the short comment (p24-25) by the ATP staff that “In some of the more traumatised villages, there were alarming signs of lethargy and depression, and several survivors spoke openly of being close to suicide.”
Nick Kristof writes well but sometimes his gullibility makes him lose his grip on reality so he doesn’t check his facts. Some readers will remember his adventures a few years ago in which he bought Cambodian sex workers out of their debt bondage so others could take their place.
Basement dungeons? Can Kristof point out the location of a single Cambodian brothel with a basement? Cambodian brothels are usually wooden shacks built directly on cement on the ground or on stilts. Even brothels with ethnic Vietnamese sex workers in Phnom Penh don’t have basements. The rescue people must be putting one over on him.
I am sure several of those you depict as Christmas elves are either Buddhists or adherents of other religions than Christianity. It seems that year after year some non-Buddhists have taken liberty with Thailand. A productive way to make Christianity known in Thailand would be to show what good it has done to the world; for example, Christianity has done a lot for the Western civilization. It is this that should be made known, not making Christmas a tool of poking fun.
Thank you Frank Anderson for writing the clear & very well-argued letter quoted in full in his post above. I agree entirely with his post, including, & especially, the parallel he draws with the use of the LM law. (The fact that defamation – i.e. defamation of individuals, including public officials – is also a criminal charge, which is able to be used in similar ways, also needs looking at.)
I agree with Ralph Kramden that a separate thread would be a good idea, since these are pressing & immediate issues that many NM readers are sure to want to discuss. To continue the discussion on this particular thread, which is keeping alive a discussion focused on Harry Nicolaides, now entering his 5th month of imprisonment without trial on a charge of LM, may detract from an issue which is becoming daily more urgent.
I have lived and worked in this fine country off and on for more than forty years. I have seen smiles on all the faces and have seen blood in the streets. Using past observation I am worried to death that unless a saviour comes out of the closet, violence will once again darken the countryside. Please, please to any and all who read this, use any and all arguements with the powere that be to stop this downhill slide into disaster. I love this country as though it were my own and regardless of civil or uncivil disobedience, STOP before it’s too late.
Interesting article, thanks for the link. If I understand correctly, Chang Noi is saying that those phu-yai who are uncomfortable with the foreign press talking about the royal institution need to get over it, because it is going to continue. It’s going to continue because so many people outside Thailand now have an interest in what happens here.
I found the link to the menu absolutely great! I hadn’t had a chance to read most of his articles before. He makes clear some of the background of the legal system and the way the judiciary works.
Had Dave Everett not written his book, his life would still be well known. Perhaps not outside of Australia, or Karen circles, but well documented nevertheless.
I regards to the various factions uniting, to form a solid front against the SPDC, that’s going to be an uphill slog.
There is a lot of suspicion and animosity between the various groups in Burma. Just the way the SPDC likes it.
Just two examples:
The Karen National Union has stated in no uncertain terms that it is opposed to drugs and drug smuggling. That puts them at direct odds with the UWSA (United Wa State Army), which is busily engaged in that activity.
The second example is the rift between the Christian Karens and the Buddhist Karens. That one won’t be easily repaired, especially when you factor in that the DKBA has made a separate peace with the SPDC, and acts as slave troops, guarding drug shipments and attacking KNLA camps.
Alot of hurdles need to be cleared before all the various factions can begin to work together. But if they do, then the days of the SPDC will be numbered.
Another thing, that I mentioned in a previous post, is the fear of “Balkanization” of Burma after the defeat of the SPDC.
Most Western governments, especially the U.S., feel that that remains a real possibility. There is no single individual with the strength of personality to hold the country together.
If Burma fragments after the demise of the SPDC, what then? Will there be several ethnic enclaves, constantly battling it out with each other? Superpowers (China, U.S., India) meddling and manipulating to gain favor with one ethnic group or another for whatever reasons?
Jimmy Clendennon,
Bleming didn’t know my father. I believe you’re confused on that point.
Insofar as your defense of Bleming – been there, done that, didn’t get the t-shirt.
This will be my last response to you on the subject of Tom Bleming. Your friendship with him, and your defense of him, is duly noted.
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Torture
The United States, and perhaps a few other countries, have enacted laws, making it a crime for Americans to go to places like Cambodia, Thailand, etc., to partake of child prostitutes.
There was a well publicized case recently of an American who was chased around the globe before being captured. He had engaged the services of child prostitutes, and photographed himself doing so. Apparently to show to his friends back home:, “look what I did on my summer vacation”.
I personally find child prostitution to be evil. Those engaging in it, either as customers or procurers, should be killed, with all their assets given to the victims.
Dave Everett and fighting for the KNLA
Like yourself, I would like to see Burma remain as one country, with a certain amount of autonomy. The various groups have to have some sort of protection in a country dominated by Burmans.
Additionally, religious freedoms have to be protected. The Christian Karens must have protection against persecution.
The relationship between Burma and China needs to be reassessed as well, with a hard line taken on territorial integrity. Burma would be best served by becoming nonaligned, I believe. A political football for neither East or West.
Dave Everett and fighting for the KNLA
First things first, Charles F. Talk about ‘Balkanisation’ is not only premature but counterproductive. It plays into the hands of the generals ; it’s their raison d’etre after all – holding the union together. It is also, unsurprisingly, the junta apologists’ favourite line of argument. We’ve had more than our fair share of Ne Wins and Than Shwes, thank you very much.
Granted it is a possible scenario, but is it probable once the military dictatorship that has denied genuine political resolution of all the important issues all along is out of the picture? Burma is not Yugoslavia. Burmans make up at least two thirds of the population. More importantly, the majority of the nationalities has reflected long and hard on their long history of armed struggle, and shifted their political goal from independence to autonomy in a democratic federation.
So, shall we cross that bridge when we actually get there? Call it wishful thinking, but give us a break. Let’s give genuine, not sham, dialogue a chance once the gunfire dies down and the smoke settles after the junta is gone for good.
Torture
I saw the documentary Kristof made a few years ago as we follow him around the child brothels of Cambodia while he befriends some of the young prostitutes in an effort to “save” them by “buying them out” so they are free to go back to their impoverished rural villages.
On a return trip, he is then “surprised” and “disillusioned” to find that at least one of the girls he “bought out” has returned to her brothel, apparently of her own free will. We then watch her chatting with Kristof in a friendly, smiling and seductive way before excusing herself to go into the back with a regular “customer” who has arrived.
This story seemed very familiar and has played out many times in many bars, KTV’s and massage venues throughout SE Asia and there always seems to be a lurking ambiguity in the story’s subtext………..
The red army at the gates of parliament
Nick ,
As I have recalled, There was a small Red gathering at a hotel in Phuket.
They were attached badly by the Yellow. It was a very small local new
the end of November 08, if i remember correctly.
Update on Harry Nicolaides
Nitwit.
Well, there’s a nice way to condemn a man when down. I continue to be dismayed by the lack of negativity proffered by many uneducated like you on those that have made an educated decision to speak the truth, or fiction.
The real freedom of writers should not be witheld or censored if we are to maintain some sort of democracy in the 21st century. Thailand is a democracy and its archaic laws need to reflect that.
Calling an inprisoned man a nitwit is like asking a man with one leg to beat you another with two capable ones to duel in a football game.
Those with any sense of justice or sanity will laugh at your ludicrous comments and carry on with getting Harry the rights to freedom like anyone in his position is entitled to.
Scott Newton
Torture
Long Pross’ new minder does indeed show Kristoff some former underground rooms. Are they basement dungeons?
Kristof says: “sure there are many girls who work voluntarily in brothels”. He should talk with some of them to see how their lives have changed since the Cambodian government passed a new US sponsored antitrafficking law. This might restore his credibility.
Torture
Re: Phnom Penh’s basement dungeons. In the video cited above, the former slave Long Pross shows Kristof one of these. So yes, they do exist.
Torture
Sex trafficking makes diseases control nearly impossible, so wide spread of HIV in this country is something inevitable. Hopefully the Cambodian government will realize their problem in time and address it in an appropriate way. Or else we will have another HIV hotspot to deal with, like we used to have in Africa.
BTW, Kristof’s sentiment is understandable. Brothels with or without basement dungeons make any difference! The girls could be tortured in any darken rooms misinterpreted as dungeons. Does it mean the whole story is a misunderstand too?
Two more publications on life after Nargis
Likewise, thanks for this post. I wasn’t aware of this issue of Humanitarian Exchange. It is good to see that some of this content got a suitable forum. Especially notable were Hedlund and Myint Su’s comment that for INGOs,
And in the ATP staff’s article, “Helping the Heroes”
Separately, regarding the limited references to psychological consequencese, there is the short comment (p24-25) by the ATP staff that “In some of the more traumatised villages, there were alarming signs of lethargy and depression, and several survivors spoke openly of being close to suicide.”
Torture
Kristof has a video up on the NYT website of a Cambodian slave who had her eye gouged out:
http://video.nytimes.com/video/2009/01/03/opinion/1194837193498/the-face-of-slavery.html
Two more publications on life after Nargis
Thanks for posting this Square Table.
Torture
Nick Kristof writes well but sometimes his gullibility makes him lose his grip on reality so he doesn’t check his facts. Some readers will remember his adventures a few years ago in which he bought Cambodian sex workers out of their debt bondage so others could take their place.
Basement dungeons? Can Kristof point out the location of a single Cambodian brothel with a basement? Cambodian brothels are usually wooden shacks built directly on cement on the ground or on stilts. Even brothels with ethnic Vietnamese sex workers in Phnom Penh don’t have basements. The rescue people must be putting one over on him.
Christmas celebrations at New Mandala
I am sure several of those you depict as Christmas elves are either Buddhists or adherents of other religions than Christianity. It seems that year after year some non-Buddhists have taken liberty with Thailand. A productive way to make Christianity known in Thailand would be to show what good it has done to the world; for example, Christianity has done a lot for the Western civilization. It is this that should be made known, not making Christmas a tool of poking fun.
Defending the taboo – the royal response
Ralph: Apart from being a rabid PAD supporter, that one guy might just be on to something 🙂
As for generalisations, not much I can say except:- we can each make our own judgements based on what we see, hear and read.
An op-ed on Harry Nicolaides
Thank you Frank Anderson for writing the clear & very well-argued letter quoted in full in his post above. I agree entirely with his post, including, & especially, the parallel he draws with the use of the LM law. (The fact that defamation – i.e. defamation of individuals, including public officials – is also a criminal charge, which is able to be used in similar ways, also needs looking at.)
I agree with Ralph Kramden that a separate thread would be a good idea, since these are pressing & immediate issues that many NM readers are sure to want to discuss. To continue the discussion on this particular thread, which is keeping alive a discussion focused on Harry Nicolaides, now entering his 5th month of imprisonment without trial on a charge of LM, may detract from an issue which is becoming daily more urgent.
Red shirts and civil disobedience
I have lived and worked in this fine country off and on for more than forty years. I have seen smiles on all the faces and have seen blood in the streets. Using past observation I am worried to death that unless a saviour comes out of the closet, violence will once again darken the countryside. Please, please to any and all who read this, use any and all arguements with the powere that be to stop this downhill slide into disaster. I love this country as though it were my own and regardless of civil or uncivil disobedience, STOP before it’s too late.
Chang Noi on the knowledge industry
Interesting article, thanks for the link. If I understand correctly, Chang Noi is saying that those phu-yai who are uncomfortable with the foreign press talking about the royal institution need to get over it, because it is going to continue. It’s going to continue because so many people outside Thailand now have an interest in what happens here.
I found the link to the menu absolutely great! I hadn’t had a chance to read most of his articles before. He makes clear some of the background of the legal system and the way the judiciary works.
Dave Everett and fighting for the KNLA
Had Dave Everett not written his book, his life would still be well known. Perhaps not outside of Australia, or Karen circles, but well documented nevertheless.
I regards to the various factions uniting, to form a solid front against the SPDC, that’s going to be an uphill slog.
There is a lot of suspicion and animosity between the various groups in Burma. Just the way the SPDC likes it.
Just two examples:
The Karen National Union has stated in no uncertain terms that it is opposed to drugs and drug smuggling. That puts them at direct odds with the UWSA (United Wa State Army), which is busily engaged in that activity.
The second example is the rift between the Christian Karens and the Buddhist Karens. That one won’t be easily repaired, especially when you factor in that the DKBA has made a separate peace with the SPDC, and acts as slave troops, guarding drug shipments and attacking KNLA camps.
Alot of hurdles need to be cleared before all the various factions can begin to work together. But if they do, then the days of the SPDC will be numbered.
Another thing, that I mentioned in a previous post, is the fear of “Balkanization” of Burma after the defeat of the SPDC.
Most Western governments, especially the U.S., feel that that remains a real possibility. There is no single individual with the strength of personality to hold the country together.
If Burma fragments after the demise of the SPDC, what then? Will there be several ethnic enclaves, constantly battling it out with each other? Superpowers (China, U.S., India) meddling and manipulating to gain favor with one ethnic group or another for whatever reasons?
Slippery slope indeed.
Volunteering to fight in Burma
Jimmy Clendennon,
Bleming didn’t know my father. I believe you’re confused on that point.
Insofar as your defense of Bleming – been there, done that, didn’t get the t-shirt.
This will be my last response to you on the subject of Tom Bleming. Your friendship with him, and your defense of him, is duly noted.