Thank you so much for your side of the story. Thailand is now under the unfair force from the invisible power. Thai media are so coward to even broadcase or write the whole thruth. Shame on them.
Kindly tell the world how bad the Thai and especially our most beloved Prime Minister, Taksin Chinawat who has changed our lives and ours vision, have been treated cruely and unfairly.
In Thailand today, the terrorist is being rewarded a Minister, and Apisit, the hijacked Priminister is in power and he has no courage to walk through the red when he said that he is the priminister of all colors.
Please help us spread the thruth to the whole world. We do not want to become the second Mianmar.
As all Thais know that the current situation now is to outwit the other side in the political arena to achieve its final goal (to get rid of the other totally). We all know that one side has the full backing of Democratic Party, national business entities, courts and judges, aristocrats, army, royalists and many more while the other side has the backing of only the grass-root of ordinary people with no clout. While one side tries to outwit the other side by using any means (legal and illegal) in their hands to achieve its goal and the other side has only ordinary people using only their individual right (one man/one vote) to demonstrate their patient and peaceful intention– the outcome is obvious if ordinary people do not make their stand or their voice heard.
A country without majority people supporting their government will not survive. The majority of Thai people still believe in democratic process and slowly running out of patience because they have been treated unfairly and seeing democratic process is being abused. That is why they are coming out to show the support of the democracy.
The current government is legally hijacked, being a nominee, and run by a group of aristocrats that would like to undermine and abolish one man/one vote in democratic system. Thailand democracy would be put back another 50 years to the past when those aristocrats were in abundance if they achieve such goal. I do not believe majority of Thai people would allow that to happen.
I love democracy. Presently, I see only one side that still adheres to the democratic process and demonstrate in a peaceful manner is the red shirt people. Until I see new or another democratic entity emerges, I will fight along side with red shirt ordinary people.
That is the only way I can make one of my little voice being heard
Dear Frank G Anderson,
I like your suggestion. Right now there is a group on Facebook that seeks for members who call for the repeal of the laws. If help from legal experts and the international community are added, perhaps it would be possible to work towards having these laws repealed in the near future.
Superman is dressed mostly in red and his nemesis, Lex Luthor dresses in yellow quite often. An interesting comparison, is it not? I’m afraid that Superman is in for the fight of his life, this time, because Luthors henchmen are armed with many weapons made of ‘Green’ krytonite.
The Red Shirt People will proclaim to the earth and sky ….
“People Like us have hearts too”
ч┤Ешепшблф║║х░Зч╡жхЬ░чРГхТМхдйчй║хогф╜И
хе╜хГПцИСхАСф╕АцигчЪДф║║ф╣ЯцШпцЬЙх┐ГчЪД
The Red Shirt People will proclaim to the earth and sky …
“We are also Thai people”
ч┤Ешепшблф║║х░Зч╡жхЬ░хТМхдйхогф╜И
цИСхАСф╣ЯцШпц│░хЬЛф║║
The Red Shirt People will ask the earth and sky …
“If there is no place worthy of standing”
ч┤Ешепшблф║║хАСх░ЗхХПхЬ░хТМхдй
ц▓ТцЬЙхА╝х╛ЧчлЩчЪДхЬ░цЦ╣
We will ask the earth and sky … Should find a place to stand on our own???
The Cheers of the Red Shirt People will be heard by The earth and The Sky !!!
цИСхАСх░ЗхХПхЬ░я╝МхдйцЗЙшй▓чЩ╝чП╛ф╕АхАЛхЬ░цЦ╣чНичлЛчлЩхЧОя╝Я ? ?
ч┤Ешепшблф║║хАСчЪДцнбхС╝х░ЗшвлхЬ░чРГхТМхдйц░гшБ╜хИ░я╣Ч ! !
I have always felt that the PAD used the Images of the Royal family as a propaganda tool. It’s hard to attack, in the media etc, a group had become increasingly violent while they hold up pictures of the Royal family and it also sends the subliminal message that if you don’t support the PAD then somehow you are un-Thai or un-Loyal to the monarchy. I would guess that the Reds are just as, if not more, loyal to the crown that the other groups. Probably someone, like Nick, with more contact to the Reds would be able to comment more.
To be fair defence of immediate comparison on PAD vs. UDD
PAD did not immediately start acting violence/threatening on the initial phase of their campaign either. For a while, they can legitimately claim civil disobedience; but it degenerate downhill and the rest is history…
Absolutely agree with the last paragraph of Marty’s comment.Only the restoration of rule of law can bring an end to the protests and the political rift. can I trust Abhisit and Democrats on this job? I’m afraid I can’t.
“If the ‘reds’ can recognise Thaksin’s good points, but also take him off the pedestal (by admitting his faults make him unsuitable to lead the country), that would be a great start in moving Thailand forward.
Only the extreme ‘yellows’ would remain, and the old royalist military networks will eventually be forced to change, or take the country backwards (risking a backlash from the rest of the world).”
In some way part of this has already begun a long time ago, but was not recognized by the independent medias. From the beginning, after the military coup, the Reds had elements incorporated that were always opposed to Thaksin. People that long before the PAD leaders decided to dislike Thaksin were part of the UDD, some even who initially were part of PAD, but left PAD in disillusionment after they realized the narrow political aims of the main PAD force, such as the pressure to evoke of Article 7.
The PAD though, as you could see from the dramatically decreasing numbers of attendants after the coup, went through a process of radicalization and fanatisation, also reflected in the far more violent forms of protest compared to pre-coup days.
Obviously Thaksin opponents within the Red Shirts were, and still are a minority. Their mass base is pro Thaksin. It is important, in my view, to see this in the right context. A political movement needs a mass base, and here in Thailand the context is to be seen in the beginning of a democratic consciousness for most people.
And, important – people who like Thaksin have a right to like him, as have people who oppose Thaksin. This is part of democracy. What though is difficult to combine with democracy, is supporting a military takeover. Political differences in a democracy, even in a imperfect democracy as Thailand, have to be solved with the venues that democracy offers.
The importance though is that the Red Shirts are open to differing views, and are not an exclusive club in which only one view is allowed membership, while opposing views are demonized (as we have seen with PAD, especially in the PAD during the Samak and Somchai administration).
Of course not all is perfect with the Red Shirts, we have seen ample evidence of this. The Red Shirts are also just a reflection of Thai society, with all it’s shades and limitations.
We have to look at trends, developments and intentions. And from what i see, both from observing the protests, and interviewing the leadership and simple protesters, there is a strong will to transform this movement into a broader democracy platform.
Thaksin will for the foreseeable future play a strong role in speeches. There are many people in Thailand who still see Thaksin as a strong symbol for democracy because of the populist policies, and may ignore the darker shades of his rule. Thaksin was not “wrong for the country” – he rose because of a feeling of disappointment with the lack of action of the previous government(s), and was reelected because he delivered what he promised. And that again was the fault of the Democrats mainly, who have never managed to build a popular appeal to many people in this country because of a lack of policies for those.
The difference though is that one does not need to be a Thaksin supporter to be part of the Red Shirts. I have seen increasing amounts of ordinary Red Shirt supporters who even were before the coup supporters of PAD.
As a observer i find the Red Shirts a very interesting movement in a constant state of change and transformation, a reflection of the state of change Thai society finds itself. I am fascinated by the question if they can manage to morph into a broad based democracy movement. There are clear signs that they intend to do that, and they actually might over time achieve this aim.
But recognize that this is a difficult thing to do, and a long process, in contemporary Thailand. Rome hasn’t been built in a day either.
No. I don’t think that Thaksin is about democracy. And I don’t think that Abhisit is about democracy either. But I think that anyone who comes from election is about democracy. If Abhisit comes from election, he is about democracy and I’ll have no problem with him. But If Thaksin comes from coup or hijacking airports, he is not about democracy.
You said, “Thaksin has proven he is not suitable to be PM.” I respect your right to think like that. But do people agree with you? I mean, do most Thai people agree with you? How about people who benefited from his health care policy and think that he is suitable to be PM? I don’t think we can decide who is suitable to be PM by using our own judgment or columnists’ or academics’ judgment. The only way to decide is to use people because they are directly affected by the government. If someone is really not suitable to be PM, people won’t vote for him. But if they vote for him, let they suffer from that. It’s their decisions. And they will learn. And if his opposition offers better policy than his, people will vote for his opposition in the next election.
Therefore, I don’t have any problem that the ‘reds’ never comdemn deficiencies of Thaksin, the same as the ‘yellows’ never condemn deficiencies of Prem or Chuan. They are political campaigns. I don’t think that people who don’t talk about their deficiencies will be a problem as long as their opponents have right to criticize them. But I think that people who don’t respect elections are real problems in Thai democracy. And this is a real “merry-go-round”: people elect someone whom the ‘network’ dislikes; the network stages a coup and says that if you want to “move forward,” you have to give the new PM a chance; people elect …..
So, do you think how to get off this merry-go-round? People have to give the new PM a chance or the network should respect the election?
You stated to see both sides of the coin, but would it be fair then to complete your statement with something like this:
Essentially the choice for the country right now is to ‘move forward’ to an era wherein the military/privileged/elites reduce their political roles and influence for greater popular participation and equality. However, you feel, that the ‘Reds’ have put too much emphasis on ‘Thaksin’ as their protector and the symbol of the anti-network, and to whom toppling the network will be given to. However we can also then say that if the network is toppled, and it doesn’t matter by who, regardless of the cultivated image of Thaksin, he too can be toppled.
The question thus is, if the network is no longer regarded as the highest authority (and is replaced by Thaksin – who has a bad record with his own cronies and corruption), will it be easier in the future to control and reign in Thaksin? Will he take the steps of Chavez or Tony Blair? Respect democracy like Mugabe or Mandela?
Is the country really ready to make that decision?
nganadeeleg says: “Do you really think Thaksin is about democracy or a fairer society?”; My response: yes, that is exactly what Thaksin was about in government, judging by his short achievements in office and the nature of the current reactionary forces against him (extreme right wing alliance who saw him moving towards democracy too fast and leaving vested/corrupt interests by the wayside). As for Abhisit, he is no liberal and certainly no “old boy” gentleman whatever his education that seems to impress the Brits. To see the real guy note the following from “Thai Intelligent News” (unedited):
QUOTE “I am engaged to help the E-Sarn people,” Mark Says
An important ring for Mark is an engagement ring giving for Mark to engage him in taking care of the E-Sarn people. Mark told that story, in his American style speech when he became the PM, and it was the high-light of dreams for many that Thai can be united. The problem is that Mark normally does not wear a ring other than his marriage ring, and so that engagement ring was worn for that speech only. Then it was gone back into the box with other rings for other speech.
“I came to do it for the country,” Mark says
Within the first week in office, Mark protected his Foreign Minister for saying the occupation of the airports was fun, then stole Thaksin’s populus policies saying it is normal for countries to use it at this time-when in fact not too many country is doing it this way-then saying the best thing for Thaksin is to come back and face a just Thai judiciary system-when even the likes of Moody’s and Washington Post have question the Thai courts.
“I will develop democratic principles,” Mark Says
Within a few weeks of his government, Asia’s largest journalist organizations have come out to protest Mark’s use of the ICT Ministry to crack-down on on over 2,000 foreign websites for things like minor lese majesties activities, forgetting that free speech is the cornerstone of any Democracy. More importantly, media outlets close to the the previous governments are being closed or shut-down by the hundreds.
“I am the PM for all Thais, rich and poor, anywhere in Thailand,” Mark says
Only weeks after announcing it will use Thaksin’s populus policies, Mark imposes regulations such as the one on real estate purchase that benefits the wealthy Thais. Also immediately it came out with policies to shore up rubber prices and cool off calls for palm oil prices to fall according to falling costs, saying that operators are still left with stock purchased at high prices. Mark government is seen close to real estate and the democrat party stronghold in Southern Thailand.
“The Cabinet will be selected based on capability,” Mark Says
Cabinet ends up being called a disappointment by many Thais who points that it is the same as always being a government by quota of how the government came about. Worse, it lack the back-bone to demand capable people from its coalition parties and thus we now see a former massage parlor manager now in control of the Commerce Ministry at a crucial time when export is contracting.
“The Military and PAD has nothing to do with this government,” Mark Says
In fact, it is Anupong that called in Nevin to pressure Nevin to turn and support Mark and in fact, the PAD and the Democrats have been supporting each other for a long time, to the point that the democrat got Kasit, a PAD key figure, to sit as the Foreign Minister. In fact, the Thai press calls the Mark cabinet’s “The Green Cabinet.” And the price paid by Mark for PAD support is that Mark now reverse all previously stated position to amend the [fascist 2007] constitution.
UNQUOTE
Wichai: Do you really think Thaksin is about democracy or a fairer society?
What’s the point of breaking one network by replacing it with another?
Is hero worship of another ‘white knight’ the way for Thailand to move forward?
Will elections now be anything different than the old pro/anti Thaksin merry-go-round? (we know where that leads!)
Thaksin has proven he is not suitable to be PM, let’s give Abhisit his turn to do the same (or otherwise).
I’ve got no problem with ‘reds’, or anyone, pointing out deficiencies in actual government performance, but what good does it do the country by harping on about how great Thaksin was,without also condemning his obvious deficiencies?
(same goes for harping on about so called draft dodging, unfair switching of alliances etc)
I don’t like the Democrats much, have lost all hope that the PAD can be a force for positive change, and see the ‘reds’ as the last great hope – they could do good things for the country, but only if they are prepared to play with a straight bat, and criticize bad/corrupt policy no matter who perpetrates it.
Please re-read my above post – it was about trying to move forward – what is your alternative proposal?
Another David, as you said “How many times was the ‘Letter of the Law’ abused by the TRT/PPP, and aided and abetted, by the judiciary of the day(admittedly, during TRT times and perhaps the reverse, during the PPP reign), to serve a certain someone?”
So, you think the courts might have changed sides during the PPP time? Have you ever thought why the courts were swayed so easily? Were they swayed by Thaksin’s money? Then Thaksin’s money ran out, so they changed side? Other ideas?
The fact is that the courts are always at the elite side. (Sorry for using the word “elite,” but it is the truth. Only those who can’t accept it try to say that there is no such thing.) Even in the most infamous case, Thaksin’s assets case in 2001, he was helped by some elites in the palace. Duncan McCargo explained this so well in his article, “Network monarchy and legimacy crises in Thailand” in the section “Prem and the Constitutional Court Crisis of 2001.”
And if you have heard the recording of a phone call between two Supreme Court judges that the Economist mentioned about, it is a very strong evidence that courts have taken orders from the palace through Prem since the TRT time.
Not to mention the Samak’s cookery show case in 2008… Do you still believe that the courts are the true saviours of Thailand?
nganadeeleg, you say that you want to see the ‘network’ broken and think that Thaksin can’t break it, but now you prefer a person directly from that ‘network’ to be the prime minister?
It’s funny when you say “Thailand needs more people who can think and can consider the issues from all sides,” but you clearly not consider from “all” sides.
Jim: You should know that what a party does in opposition is oppose, and that does not count against them when they are in government. (Judge them by what they do in government, not in oposition)
As someone who appears to be close to the ‘reds’, here is some free advice (extracted from a reply I just made to Joy on my ‘nganadeeleg’ blog):
Thailand needs more people who can think and can consider the issues from all sides, rather than put the blinkers on to anything that challenges the old ways of thinking.
I’ve always wanted to see the ‘network’ broken and Thailand become a fairer society, but I doubt unwavering allegiance to a new white knight (Thaksin) is the way to achieve it.
IMO, the ‘reds’ are still too much for Thaksin. By clinging to the coat tails of Thaksin, they give life to the PAD/yellows.
If the ‘reds’ can recognise Thaksin’s good points, but also take him off the pedestal (by admitting his faults make him unsuitable to lead the country), that would be a great start in moving Thailand forward.
Only the extreme ‘yellows’ would remain, and the old royalist military networks will eventually be forced to change, or take the country backwards (risking a backlash from the rest of the world).
At present, I would prefer Abhisit to lead for a while, rather than jump back onto the pro/anti Thaksin election merry-go-round which will just lead nowhere.
For the sake of a better Thailand, I think the ‘reds’ should drop Thaksin, and give the Democrats enough rope to hang themselves (which they will surely do unless they are prepared to change and govern for all the country).
Thanks for the input Nick. Always like your perspective.
One thing I noticed from your picture and others I have seen is that the Reds have figured out that they need English language signs if the foreign press is going to pick up pictures of their protests, and the group as a whole appears to be in good spirits throughout the protest. It’s actually rather refreshing not to see razer wire, armed guards and tire barricades at a protest.
There definitely was a potential for the protest to turn sour and I think the UDD leaders have to be commended for keeping everyone in line for the most part.
The big question now is will the Democrats actually do anything in charging the PAD as they said they would by the 4th or 5th of the month or was that just to buy time until they could deliver their policy debate. If the government fails to prosecute anyone for the seizures, and this is my personal feeling, then the leaders of the UDD may not be able to reign in the militant factions of the Reds for too much longer.
Nganadeeleg: “Abhisit has pledged to continue the programs for the poorer parts of the country…” The Nor Por Chor are not against seeing these implemented but rightly annoyed that they are by and large lifted straight from Thaksin’s policies. Now, I for one will be the the first to pat Abhisit on the back if he acknowledges where these rural reform practices actually came from, such as the decentralisation of funds for sub-districts and the like, criticised as with everything that came out of Thaksin by the Democrats at the time…Ironic is it not?
Nick, absolutely fantastic pictures! This gave me a much better sense of the mechanics of these rallies and you should continue to perform the invaluable service of documenting the democratic upsurge and be sure record the evidence in case anything untoward is perpetrated by the army and their various proxies.
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Red shirts and civil disobedience
Thank you so much for your side of the story. Thailand is now under the unfair force from the invisible power. Thai media are so coward to even broadcase or write the whole thruth. Shame on them.
Kindly tell the world how bad the Thai and especially our most beloved Prime Minister, Taksin Chinawat who has changed our lives and ours vision, have been treated cruely and unfairly.
In Thailand today, the terrorist is being rewarded a Minister, and Apisit, the hijacked Priminister is in power and he has no courage to walk through the red when he said that he is the priminister of all colors.
Please help us spread the thruth to the whole world. We do not want to become the second Mianmar.
Thanks a million.
Red shirts and civil disobedience
As all Thais know that the current situation now is to outwit the other side in the political arena to achieve its final goal (to get rid of the other totally). We all know that one side has the full backing of Democratic Party, national business entities, courts and judges, aristocrats, army, royalists and many more while the other side has the backing of only the grass-root of ordinary people with no clout. While one side tries to outwit the other side by using any means (legal and illegal) in their hands to achieve its goal and the other side has only ordinary people using only their individual right (one man/one vote) to demonstrate their patient and peaceful intention– the outcome is obvious if ordinary people do not make their stand or their voice heard.
A country without majority people supporting their government will not survive. The majority of Thai people still believe in democratic process and slowly running out of patience because they have been treated unfairly and seeing democratic process is being abused. That is why they are coming out to show the support of the democracy.
The current government is legally hijacked, being a nominee, and run by a group of aristocrats that would like to undermine and abolish one man/one vote in democratic system. Thailand democracy would be put back another 50 years to the past when those aristocrats were in abundance if they achieve such goal. I do not believe majority of Thai people would allow that to happen.
I love democracy. Presently, I see only one side that still adheres to the democratic process and demonstrate in a peaceful manner is the red shirt people. Until I see new or another democratic entity emerges, I will fight along side with red shirt ordinary people.
That is the only way I can make one of my little voice being heard
An op-ed on Harry Nicolaides
Dear Frank G Anderson,
I like your suggestion. Right now there is a group on Facebook that seeks for members who call for the repeal of the laws. If help from legal experts and the international community are added, perhaps it would be possible to work towards having these laws repealed in the near future.
Red shirts and civil disobedience
Superman is dressed mostly in red and his nemesis, Lex Luthor dresses in yellow quite often. An interesting comparison, is it not? I’m afraid that Superman is in for the fight of his life, this time, because Luthors henchmen are armed with many weapons made of ‘Green’ krytonite.
I will still root for the red to reign supreme.
Red shirts and civil disobedience
The Red Shirt People will proclaim to the earth and sky ….
“People Like us have hearts too”
ч┤Ешепшблф║║х░Зч╡жхЬ░чРГхТМхдйчй║хогф╜И
хе╜хГПцИСхАСф╕АцигчЪДф║║ф╣ЯцШпцЬЙх┐ГчЪД
The Red Shirt People will proclaim to the earth and sky …
“We are also Thai people”
ч┤Ешепшблф║║х░Зч╡жхЬ░хТМхдйхогф╜И
цИСхАСф╣ЯцШпц│░хЬЛф║║
The Red Shirt People will ask the earth and sky …
“If there is no place worthy of standing”
ч┤Ешепшблф║║хАСх░ЗхХПхЬ░хТМхдй
ц▓ТцЬЙхА╝х╛ЧчлЩчЪДхЬ░цЦ╣
We will ask the earth and sky … Should find a place to stand on our own???
The Cheers of the Red Shirt People will be heard by The earth and The Sky !!!
цИСхАСх░ЗхХПхЬ░я╝МхдйцЗЙшй▓чЩ╝чП╛ф╕АхАЛхЬ░цЦ╣чНичлЛчлЩхЧОя╝Я ? ?
ч┤Ешепшблф║║хАСчЪДцнбхС╝х░ЗшвлхЬ░чРГхТМхдйц░гшБ╜хИ░я╣Ч ! !
NutKim
Red shirts and civil disobedience
I have always felt that the PAD used the Images of the Royal family as a propaganda tool. It’s hard to attack, in the media etc, a group had become increasingly violent while they hold up pictures of the Royal family and it also sends the subliminal message that if you don’t support the PAD then somehow you are un-Thai or un-Loyal to the monarchy. I would guess that the Reds are just as, if not more, loyal to the crown that the other groups. Probably someone, like Nick, with more contact to the Reds would be able to comment more.
Red shirts and civil disobedience
To be fair defence of immediate comparison on PAD vs. UDD
PAD did not immediately start acting violence/threatening on the initial phase of their campaign either. For a while, they can legitimately claim civil disobedience; but it degenerate downhill and the rest is history…
Red shirts and civil disobedience
I noticed many Thai flags on the pictures, but nobody holding up what was ubiquitious at PAD rallies — pics of the king and the queen…
Red shirts and civil disobedience
Absolutely agree with the last paragraph of Marty’s comment.Only the restoration of rule of law can bring an end to the protests and the political rift. can I trust Abhisit and Democrats on this job? I’m afraid I can’t.
The red army at the gates of parliament
“nganadeeleg”:
You posted:
“If the ‘reds’ can recognise Thaksin’s good points, but also take him off the pedestal (by admitting his faults make him unsuitable to lead the country), that would be a great start in moving Thailand forward.
Only the extreme ‘yellows’ would remain, and the old royalist military networks will eventually be forced to change, or take the country backwards (risking a backlash from the rest of the world).”
In some way part of this has already begun a long time ago, but was not recognized by the independent medias. From the beginning, after the military coup, the Reds had elements incorporated that were always opposed to Thaksin. People that long before the PAD leaders decided to dislike Thaksin were part of the UDD, some even who initially were part of PAD, but left PAD in disillusionment after they realized the narrow political aims of the main PAD force, such as the pressure to evoke of Article 7.
The PAD though, as you could see from the dramatically decreasing numbers of attendants after the coup, went through a process of radicalization and fanatisation, also reflected in the far more violent forms of protest compared to pre-coup days.
Obviously Thaksin opponents within the Red Shirts were, and still are a minority. Their mass base is pro Thaksin. It is important, in my view, to see this in the right context. A political movement needs a mass base, and here in Thailand the context is to be seen in the beginning of a democratic consciousness for most people.
And, important – people who like Thaksin have a right to like him, as have people who oppose Thaksin. This is part of democracy. What though is difficult to combine with democracy, is supporting a military takeover. Political differences in a democracy, even in a imperfect democracy as Thailand, have to be solved with the venues that democracy offers.
The importance though is that the Red Shirts are open to differing views, and are not an exclusive club in which only one view is allowed membership, while opposing views are demonized (as we have seen with PAD, especially in the PAD during the Samak and Somchai administration).
Of course not all is perfect with the Red Shirts, we have seen ample evidence of this. The Red Shirts are also just a reflection of Thai society, with all it’s shades and limitations.
We have to look at trends, developments and intentions. And from what i see, both from observing the protests, and interviewing the leadership and simple protesters, there is a strong will to transform this movement into a broader democracy platform.
Thaksin will for the foreseeable future play a strong role in speeches. There are many people in Thailand who still see Thaksin as a strong symbol for democracy because of the populist policies, and may ignore the darker shades of his rule. Thaksin was not “wrong for the country” – he rose because of a feeling of disappointment with the lack of action of the previous government(s), and was reelected because he delivered what he promised. And that again was the fault of the Democrats mainly, who have never managed to build a popular appeal to many people in this country because of a lack of policies for those.
The difference though is that one does not need to be a Thaksin supporter to be part of the Red Shirts. I have seen increasing amounts of ordinary Red Shirt supporters who even were before the coup supporters of PAD.
As a observer i find the Red Shirts a very interesting movement in a constant state of change and transformation, a reflection of the state of change Thai society finds itself. I am fascinated by the question if they can manage to morph into a broad based democracy movement. There are clear signs that they intend to do that, and they actually might over time achieve this aim.
But recognize that this is a difficult thing to do, and a long process, in contemporary Thailand. Rome hasn’t been built in a day either.
The red army at the gates of parliament
nganadeeleg:
No. I don’t think that Thaksin is about democracy. And I don’t think that Abhisit is about democracy either. But I think that anyone who comes from election is about democracy. If Abhisit comes from election, he is about democracy and I’ll have no problem with him. But If Thaksin comes from coup or hijacking airports, he is not about democracy.
You said, “Thaksin has proven he is not suitable to be PM.” I respect your right to think like that. But do people agree with you? I mean, do most Thai people agree with you? How about people who benefited from his health care policy and think that he is suitable to be PM? I don’t think we can decide who is suitable to be PM by using our own judgment or columnists’ or academics’ judgment. The only way to decide is to use people because they are directly affected by the government. If someone is really not suitable to be PM, people won’t vote for him. But if they vote for him, let they suffer from that. It’s their decisions. And they will learn. And if his opposition offers better policy than his, people will vote for his opposition in the next election.
Therefore, I don’t have any problem that the ‘reds’ never comdemn deficiencies of Thaksin, the same as the ‘yellows’ never condemn deficiencies of Prem or Chuan. They are political campaigns. I don’t think that people who don’t talk about their deficiencies will be a problem as long as their opponents have right to criticize them. But I think that people who don’t respect elections are real problems in Thai democracy. And this is a real “merry-go-round”: people elect someone whom the ‘network’ dislikes; the network stages a coup and says that if you want to “move forward,” you have to give the new PM a chance; people elect …..
So, do you think how to get off this merry-go-round? People have to give the new PM a chance or the network should respect the election?
The red army at the gates of parliament
Nga:
You stated to see both sides of the coin, but would it be fair then to complete your statement with something like this:
Essentially the choice for the country right now is to ‘move forward’ to an era wherein the military/privileged/elites reduce their political roles and influence for greater popular participation and equality. However, you feel, that the ‘Reds’ have put too much emphasis on ‘Thaksin’ as their protector and the symbol of the anti-network, and to whom toppling the network will be given to. However we can also then say that if the network is toppled, and it doesn’t matter by who, regardless of the cultivated image of Thaksin, he too can be toppled.
The question thus is, if the network is no longer regarded as the highest authority (and is replaced by Thaksin – who has a bad record with his own cronies and corruption), will it be easier in the future to control and reign in Thaksin? Will he take the steps of Chavez or Tony Blair? Respect democracy like Mugabe or Mandela?
Is the country really ready to make that decision?
The red army at the gates of parliament
nganadeeleg says: “Do you really think Thaksin is about democracy or a fairer society?”; My response: yes, that is exactly what Thaksin was about in government, judging by his short achievements in office and the nature of the current reactionary forces against him (extreme right wing alliance who saw him moving towards democracy too fast and leaving vested/corrupt interests by the wayside). As for Abhisit, he is no liberal and certainly no “old boy” gentleman whatever his education that seems to impress the Brits. To see the real guy note the following from “Thai Intelligent News” (unedited):
QUOTE “I am engaged to help the E-Sarn people,” Mark Says
An important ring for Mark is an engagement ring giving for Mark to engage him in taking care of the E-Sarn people. Mark told that story, in his American style speech when he became the PM, and it was the high-light of dreams for many that Thai can be united. The problem is that Mark normally does not wear a ring other than his marriage ring, and so that engagement ring was worn for that speech only. Then it was gone back into the box with other rings for other speech.
“I came to do it for the country,” Mark says
Within the first week in office, Mark protected his Foreign Minister for saying the occupation of the airports was fun, then stole Thaksin’s populus policies saying it is normal for countries to use it at this time-when in fact not too many country is doing it this way-then saying the best thing for Thaksin is to come back and face a just Thai judiciary system-when even the likes of Moody’s and Washington Post have question the Thai courts.
“I will develop democratic principles,” Mark Says
Within a few weeks of his government, Asia’s largest journalist organizations have come out to protest Mark’s use of the ICT Ministry to crack-down on on over 2,000 foreign websites for things like minor lese majesties activities, forgetting that free speech is the cornerstone of any Democracy. More importantly, media outlets close to the the previous governments are being closed or shut-down by the hundreds.
“I am the PM for all Thais, rich and poor, anywhere in Thailand,” Mark says
Only weeks after announcing it will use Thaksin’s populus policies, Mark imposes regulations such as the one on real estate purchase that benefits the wealthy Thais. Also immediately it came out with policies to shore up rubber prices and cool off calls for palm oil prices to fall according to falling costs, saying that operators are still left with stock purchased at high prices. Mark government is seen close to real estate and the democrat party stronghold in Southern Thailand.
“The Cabinet will be selected based on capability,” Mark Says
Cabinet ends up being called a disappointment by many Thais who points that it is the same as always being a government by quota of how the government came about. Worse, it lack the back-bone to demand capable people from its coalition parties and thus we now see a former massage parlor manager now in control of the Commerce Ministry at a crucial time when export is contracting.
“The Military and PAD has nothing to do with this government,” Mark Says
In fact, it is Anupong that called in Nevin to pressure Nevin to turn and support Mark and in fact, the PAD and the Democrats have been supporting each other for a long time, to the point that the democrat got Kasit, a PAD key figure, to sit as the Foreign Minister. In fact, the Thai press calls the Mark cabinet’s “The Green Cabinet.” And the price paid by Mark for PAD support is that Mark now reverse all previously stated position to amend the [fascist 2007] constitution.
UNQUOTE
The red army at the gates of parliament
Wichai: Do you really think Thaksin is about democracy or a fairer society?
What’s the point of breaking one network by replacing it with another?
Is hero worship of another ‘white knight’ the way for Thailand to move forward?
Will elections now be anything different than the old pro/anti Thaksin merry-go-round? (we know where that leads!)
Thaksin has proven he is not suitable to be PM, let’s give Abhisit his turn to do the same (or otherwise).
I’ve got no problem with ‘reds’, or anyone, pointing out deficiencies in actual government performance, but what good does it do the country by harping on about how great Thaksin was,without also condemning his obvious deficiencies?
(same goes for harping on about so called draft dodging, unfair switching of alliances etc)
I don’t like the Democrats much, have lost all hope that the PAD can be a force for positive change, and see the ‘reds’ as the last great hope – they could do good things for the country, but only if they are prepared to play with a straight bat, and criticize bad/corrupt policy no matter who perpetrates it.
Please re-read my above post – it was about trying to move forward – what is your alternative proposal?
The red army at the gates of parliament
Another David, as you said “How many times was the ‘Letter of the Law’ abused by the TRT/PPP, and aided and abetted, by the judiciary of the day(admittedly, during TRT times and perhaps the reverse, during the PPP reign), to serve a certain someone?”
So, you think the courts might have changed sides during the PPP time? Have you ever thought why the courts were swayed so easily? Were they swayed by Thaksin’s money? Then Thaksin’s money ran out, so they changed side? Other ideas?
The fact is that the courts are always at the elite side. (Sorry for using the word “elite,” but it is the truth. Only those who can’t accept it try to say that there is no such thing.) Even in the most infamous case, Thaksin’s assets case in 2001, he was helped by some elites in the palace. Duncan McCargo explained this so well in his article, “Network monarchy and legimacy crises in Thailand” in the section “Prem and the Constitutional Court Crisis of 2001.”
And if you have heard the recording of a phone call between two Supreme Court judges that the Economist mentioned about, it is a very strong evidence that courts have taken orders from the palace through Prem since the TRT time.
Not to mention the Samak’s cookery show case in 2008… Do you still believe that the courts are the true saviours of Thailand?
The red army at the gates of parliament
nganadeeleg, you say that you want to see the ‘network’ broken and think that Thaksin can’t break it, but now you prefer a person directly from that ‘network’ to be the prime minister?
It’s funny when you say “Thailand needs more people who can think and can consider the issues from all sides,” but you clearly not consider from “all” sides.
The red army at the gates of parliament
Jim: You should know that what a party does in opposition is oppose, and that does not count against them when they are in government. (Judge them by what they do in government, not in oposition)
As someone who appears to be close to the ‘reds’, here is some free advice (extracted from a reply I just made to Joy on my ‘nganadeeleg’ blog):
Thailand needs more people who can think and can consider the issues from all sides, rather than put the blinkers on to anything that challenges the old ways of thinking.
I’ve always wanted to see the ‘network’ broken and Thailand become a fairer society, but I doubt unwavering allegiance to a new white knight (Thaksin) is the way to achieve it.
IMO, the ‘reds’ are still too much for Thaksin. By clinging to the coat tails of Thaksin, they give life to the PAD/yellows.
If the ‘reds’ can recognise Thaksin’s good points, but also take him off the pedestal (by admitting his faults make him unsuitable to lead the country), that would be a great start in moving Thailand forward.
Only the extreme ‘yellows’ would remain, and the old royalist military networks will eventually be forced to change, or take the country backwards (risking a backlash from the rest of the world).
At present, I would prefer Abhisit to lead for a while, rather than jump back onto the pro/anti Thaksin election merry-go-round which will just lead nowhere.
For the sake of a better Thailand, I think the ‘reds’ should drop Thaksin, and give the Democrats enough rope to hang themselves (which they will surely do unless they are prepared to change and govern for all the country).
Red shirts and civil disobedience
Thanks for the input Nick. Always like your perspective.
One thing I noticed from your picture and others I have seen is that the Reds have figured out that they need English language signs if the foreign press is going to pick up pictures of their protests, and the group as a whole appears to be in good spirits throughout the protest. It’s actually rather refreshing not to see razer wire, armed guards and tire barricades at a protest.
There definitely was a potential for the protest to turn sour and I think the UDD leaders have to be commended for keeping everyone in line for the most part.
The big question now is will the Democrats actually do anything in charging the PAD as they said they would by the 4th or 5th of the month or was that just to buy time until they could deliver their policy debate. If the government fails to prosecute anyone for the seizures, and this is my personal feeling, then the leaders of the UDD may not be able to reign in the militant factions of the Reds for too much longer.
The red army at the gates of parliament
Nganadeeleg: “Abhisit has pledged to continue the programs for the poorer parts of the country…” The Nor Por Chor are not against seeing these implemented but rightly annoyed that they are by and large lifted straight from Thaksin’s policies. Now, I for one will be the the first to pat Abhisit on the back if he acknowledges where these rural reform practices actually came from, such as the decentralisation of funds for sub-districts and the like, criticised as with everything that came out of Thaksin by the Democrats at the time…Ironic is it not?
Red shirts and civil disobedience
Nick, absolutely fantastic pictures! This gave me a much better sense of the mechanics of these rallies and you should continue to perform the invaluable service of documenting the democratic upsurge and be sure record the evidence in case anything untoward is perpetrated by the army and their various proxies.