@hc lau:
quote: “There is no separate capital gains tax in Thailand. Capital gains are subject to tax in the same manner as other income.” unquote
period. could you PLEASE, PLEASE, PLEASE list how much tax tax-sin has paid on his sale of shin corp. or do you have typical toxin logic engaged? would you like to buy shin shares at a nominal value of 10 or even 1 baht per share tax free? we all wonder why you so vehemently defend tax-sinners…..do you have a stake ???
Is the genie really out of the bottle? Even in offshore blogs? Can we not mention here Crown Prince Vajiralongkorn negatively, even mildly so? Of course NM needs to be cautious at times, but also to be straightforward about that. In its “New Mandala encourages vigorous debate…” note, perhaps it needs a line saying “We too must remain cautious about what is said here about the royal family of Thailand.”
the fact remains that Thaksin was elected by a landslide margin TWICE!
The FACT remains that Thaksin, after being repeatedly rebuffed by the political establishment because they rightly feared his sociopathy, used his billions to form and promote his own party with the monomaniacal purpose of insuring he become Premier and have a clear majority of boot lickers.
A healthy distrust of the improbable idea that a billionaire is a populist was in order then. That distrust was verified when Thaksin sold his mobile business to Tamasek AND had his crony boot lickers provide a law that exempted that sale from being taxed. Populist my my sticky rice!
This historical moment for America is possible because of her extraordinary devotion to equality in liberty and to provide opportunity for individuals to achieve a better life.
Go to Alabama, Mississippi, Louisiana, Georgia, Tennessee, or Arkansas and ask black people living there their opinion of your statement.
Yes, “inherently flawed” indeed for having the audacity to UNEQUALLY share our BLESSINGS! While the opposing view has the inherent virtue for EQUALLY sharing of their MISERIES!
Those paragons of virtue, the Wall Street Banksters are a glaring example of your idea that unequally sharing the “blessings” is a good and just thing. Those same Banksters who preach greedy extremist-capitalist dogma are hell bent that the whole bloody world will equally share in the miseries they have created.
“Revealing racism” indeed, so racist that we just elected a minority to the highest office in the Nation!
Obama’s election was indeed a watershed event.
That event does not however erase all the sins of the past.
As a very poor little girl that divorced parents left with a grandmother, a snowball in hell had better odds than I did compared to what I am accomplishing today
I have empathy for the suffering you experienced as a child. Children are often brutal to each other and that brutality can sear itself into ones soul.
I once chatted for several hours with the managing Abbot of Wat Thai in Los Angeles. One of the things took away from that conversation was the Abbot’s rueful realization that Thai people who live in America tend to become more American than Americans. This after I witnessed a Thai woman speaking rudely to the Abbot about the Wat’s education program and her son’s progress in it.
K. Noi, I am happy that you have found a place that works well for you. It will be interesting see whether your view of America remains as strong in the coming months.
Stephan has typical PAD logic engaged. Capital gains tax does not apply to equity sale – period. Is Stephan holder of any shares in the Thai market? If not then I am sure many of the PAD backers are. Can Stephan please, please, please list one (1) of them who has paid tax on their shares sale.
Everyone who has done shares transactions on the Thai stock exchange should be in jail now for tax evasion – that would put all the PAD members including Stephan behind bars. (of course discounting all the old ladies (200 bt /day and goons (500bt /day)
Incidently that(protest) money is actually taxable since it is earned income
so the PAD is something like an ombudsman and human rights commission type organisation… good, sounds quite honourable
it does explain whaat the PAD seem to have no particular positive things to suggest for thai society… oh, except that they have declared that they believe most Thai people should not be able to vote for their government (ignorant buffaloes… guess human rights dont apply to them?)
anyway, my question… do you think the PAD should be concerned at the actions of the CNS that broke all the laws of Thailand, in fact replaced them all with a new constitution that is designed to disenfranchaise voters and apply unproductve punishments to poltical parties to linit their power to represent the people that elected them?
Thaksin’s crimes, if they are true had very little effect on anyone other than himself (and all the other people that sold shares and were happy not to pay tax) whereas the changes by the CNS have destroyed the processes of government affecting all of Thailand
I wish people would keep a sense of perspective… just because a corrupt rich businessman that uses bankruptcy to protect his assets and runs protests to expand his business empire tells you to attack Thaksin… why do you believe him and why dont you look at the broader picture to see where it all fits?
we need to keep in mind that PAD never has been and never wanted to be a political party, running for any office. the PADs program, if there is any, is to monitor justice, election fraud, corruption & cronism. no less, but not much more.
laws should be made by democratically elected decent lawmakers in the best interest of the majority of people and not by a bunch of greedy thugs in their own interest only.
example is tax-sins dubious sale of shin in 2006, made possible by ‘laws & rules’ implemented not for the thai people but for him alone, costing thailand billions in lost taxes, now in tax-sins deep pockets.
quote: “Criticisms of the sale focused on the allegations by Thaksin and a compliant government that the transaction was exempt from capital gains tax (as per Revenue Department and Stock Exchange of Thailand regulations – later determined by Thai courts not to be legal), the fact that the Thai company was sold to a Singaporean company, and the fact that the Thai law regarding foreign investments in the telecom sector had been amended just prior to the sale”. unquote
Pasuk and Chris Baker are my favourite political commentators on Thailand. But I agree with Observer, for the reasons Observer outlined, that the anti-Thaksin stuff is the weakest part her contribution.
No doubt Thaksin is a power-hungry scoundrel, but I can’t see that he is especially bad. Transparency International records no evidence of any increase in the perceived level of corruption in Thailand during his tenure.
Perhaps because he was an outsider, Thaksin was forced to use the democratic system to advance himself. The constraints of democracy meant that he had to do a certain amount of good to maintain power, no matter what his motives were. It is for the good, not the bad things he did, that the Bangkok insiders hate him. Democracy raises the price of power, and they hate it too.
hear hear nong noi, the usa is a great country today because its leadership aspired to greatness in respecting basic human rights (that has since been perverted somewhat by extreme liberalism).
there really is nothing holding back progress in every sense of the word for the beautiful country that is thailand; only for want of moral courage on the part of the thai government to uplift the quality of life for every thai citizen through politic, economic, & social reforms.
and so this is a call to thai policy makers (& PAD elitists) to understand their God-given mandate and to act responsibly; and exercise their power for the good of the people who voted them in for that very purpose?
anything less is to short-change your own country & fellow countrymen…
Yes, “inherently flawed” indeed for having the audacity to UNEQUALLY share our BLESSINGS! While the opposing view has the inherent virtue for EQUALLY sharing of their MISERIES!
<>
“Revealing racism” indeed, so racist that we just elected a minority to the highest office in the Nation!
Speaking from my personal experience of how I was treated as a poor little girl (part Thai part Chinese) in my motherland, the “pure” Thai never missed a chance to make fun of my “Chinese eyes”, called me “Loog Jegg” instead of addressing by my name. Please spare me the pontification on your notion of racism, I, as a long time U.S. resident (over 30 years) encountered racism in my own motherland more than I encountered in the U.S. Moreover, most of my friends in Thailand (of Chinese decent) had changed their Chinese last name to Thai last name, so that they could attend public school or work in the government sector.
I could never have accomplished what I have today had I still lived in Thailand. As a very poor little girl that divorced parents left with a grandmother, a snowball in hell had better odds than I did compared to what I am accomplishing today if I still living in Thailand!
I could give you a long list of very successful Asian people living in America that their motherland discarded them from the main society. Why? Because of American extraordinary devotion to equality in liberty and to provide opportunity for individuals to achieve a better life.
You can question and challenge my so called “assertion” that Thaksin’s government is the government of the people, all you want. However, I derived my conclusion from the facts, not from biased opinion. And the fact remains that Thaksin was elected by a landslide margin TWICE! Thaksin had the mandate from the majority of Thai people, regardless of what you or Karl may think.
Your comment regarding the minority in Thailand will be left behind if democracy were to ALLOWED in Thailand. Contrary to your belief, look no further than the last election cycle in America (the melting pot), for a good example. Obama, a member of a minority group was elected to the highest office in the Nation! This historical moment for America is possible because of her extraordinary devotion to equality in liberty and to provide opportunity for individuals to achieve a better life.
factionalism is the real devil behind the constant woes of thailand. thaksin, like any savvy businessman, worked the system for his own good. certainly, he performed better than most of his predecessors due to his acumen and charisma; but ultimately he failed in the critical area of integrity and love for his nation. pity,
Further to the legal issue, I guess the Thai courts will have to go through the motions of considering the charges against the PAD. But given their former lenience towards the PAD, and under the current political status quo, one would think that it would be very unlikely that they would get really tough on the PAD in the near future.
Also, one would think that Sondhi and Chamlong must have had an “insurance policy” before they decided to take the airports – or Government House, for that matter. For example, if the cases ever came to court and the judges looked like getting tough, more juicy details about who was supporting the PAD and what form that support took might find their way into the media.
I think there is every reason to believe that “the invisible hand” will see to it that the PAD are treated leniently by the courts, regardless of public opinion (I remember someone telling me once that one reason for the monarchy’s huge influence is that they never forget a favour and always repay debts of obligation).
Yet the courts will be under enormous pressure to find somebody responsible, both from within Thailand and internationally. So they are kind of between a rock and a hard place.
It will be interesting to see how they will resolve this one.
Normally you’d expect a whitewashing campaign launched through the network’s propaganda apparatus. But given the massive coverage by international media and the rapidly growing influence of the relatively freer internet media this is a dangerous game.
But every game is a dangerous game for the monarchy now.
i applaud HC Lau’s totally coherent, articulate take on the current situation in thailand. let’s not be sidestepped by the thin veneer of geo-politics; but rather be focussed on the “real” every day issues facing the man in the soi… every man; rich or poor, has a God-given right to live in dignity!
Democracy is nothing more than a tyranny of the majority.
Democracy like capitalism is inherently flawed.
Farang demanding that Thais adopt their inherently flawed system of governance and economics as superior to “consensus” governance are revealing their racisism and paternalistic sense of superiority.
Those posting here and elsewhere that the only true measure of success are Baht and Satang are the most flawed as people and the best example of how corrupt their western ideas truly are.
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PAD’s by-election poison
@hc lau:
quote: “There is no separate capital gains tax in Thailand. Capital gains are subject to tax in the same manner as other income.” unquote
period. could you PLEASE, PLEASE, PLEASE list how much tax tax-sin has paid on his sale of shin corp. or do you have typical toxin logic engaged? would you like to buy shin shares at a nominal value of 10 or even 1 baht per share tax free? we all wonder why you so vehemently defend tax-sinners…..do you have a stake ???
End of the royal taboo?
Is the genie really out of the bottle? Even in offshore blogs? Can we not mention here Crown Prince Vajiralongkorn negatively, even mildly so? Of course NM needs to be cautious at times, but also to be straightforward about that. In its “New Mandala encourages vigorous debate…” note, perhaps it needs a line saying “We too must remain cautious about what is said here about the royal family of Thailand.”
Conflict in Bangkok: Open thread
Morgan and others,
When a PAD supporter engages the PAD based logic, the whole point of intellectual discourse goes out the window
EG – (hope the PAD don’t take up on this idea)
Robber confronts man in street;
Robber : hand over your wallet!
man : No, I have my hard earned money in it.
Robber shoots man in the leg. Man collapses screaming in pain and writhing on the ground. Bullet went through man’s leg and breaks shop window.
PAD appears on the scene.
PAD : man, see what you have done? you caused the shop window to be broken!
man : but,,but he shot me and the bullet broke the window.
PAD : you should have handed over the wallet, then he wouldn’t have to shoot you and the window would not be broken.
man : I am not giving up my wallet.
Robber prepares to take another shot. Pad stops the robber, grabs the man’s wallet and hands it over.
Robber : see? you should have given me the wallet in the first place – just look at the damage you have caused.
PAD : yes, I think we will have to charge you for the damage.
man : what about me? I am robbed and shot.
PAD : What? I didn’t see that.
PAD, robber calmly walks away and as a parting shot – “next time hand over your wallet quick, so no damage will be done”
New Mandala in The Age
the fact remains that Thaksin was elected by a landslide margin TWICE!
The FACT remains that Thaksin, after being repeatedly rebuffed by the political establishment because they rightly feared his sociopathy, used his billions to form and promote his own party with the monomaniacal purpose of insuring he become Premier and have a clear majority of boot lickers.
A healthy distrust of the improbable idea that a billionaire is a populist was in order then. That distrust was verified when Thaksin sold his mobile business to Tamasek AND had his crony boot lickers provide a law that exempted that sale from being taxed. Populist my my sticky rice!
This historical moment for America is possible because of her extraordinary devotion to equality in liberty and to provide opportunity for individuals to achieve a better life.
Go to Alabama, Mississippi, Louisiana, Georgia, Tennessee, or Arkansas and ask black people living there their opinion of your statement.
Yes, “inherently flawed” indeed for having the audacity to UNEQUALLY share our BLESSINGS! While the opposing view has the inherent virtue for EQUALLY sharing of their MISERIES!
Those paragons of virtue, the Wall Street Banksters are a glaring example of your idea that unequally sharing the “blessings” is a good and just thing. Those same Banksters who preach greedy extremist-capitalist dogma are hell bent that the whole bloody world will equally share in the miseries they have created.
“Revealing racism” indeed, so racist that we just elected a minority to the highest office in the Nation!
Obama’s election was indeed a watershed event.
That event does not however erase all the sins of the past.
As a very poor little girl that divorced parents left with a grandmother, a snowball in hell had better odds than I did compared to what I am accomplishing today
I have empathy for the suffering you experienced as a child. Children are often brutal to each other and that brutality can sear itself into ones soul.
I once chatted for several hours with the managing Abbot of Wat Thai in Los Angeles. One of the things took away from that conversation was the Abbot’s rueful realization that Thai people who live in America tend to become more American than Americans. This after I witnessed a Thai woman speaking rudely to the Abbot about the Wat’s education program and her son’s progress in it.
K. Noi, I am happy that you have found a place that works well for you. It will be interesting see whether your view of America remains as strong in the coming months.
Chok dee.
PAD’s by-election poison
Stephan has typical PAD logic engaged. Capital gains tax does not apply to equity sale – period. Is Stephan holder of any shares in the Thai market? If not then I am sure many of the PAD backers are. Can Stephan please, please, please list one (1) of them who has paid tax on their shares sale.
Everyone who has done shares transactions on the Thai stock exchange should be in jail now for tax evasion – that would put all the PAD members including Stephan behind bars. (of course discounting all the old ladies (200 bt /day and goons (500bt /day)
Incidently that(protest) money is actually taxable since it is earned income
PAD’s by-election poison
stephan,
so the PAD is something like an ombudsman and human rights commission type organisation… good, sounds quite honourable
it does explain whaat the PAD seem to have no particular positive things to suggest for thai society… oh, except that they have declared that they believe most Thai people should not be able to vote for their government (ignorant buffaloes… guess human rights dont apply to them?)
anyway, my question… do you think the PAD should be concerned at the actions of the CNS that broke all the laws of Thailand, in fact replaced them all with a new constitution that is designed to disenfranchaise voters and apply unproductve punishments to poltical parties to linit their power to represent the people that elected them?
Thaksin’s crimes, if they are true had very little effect on anyone other than himself (and all the other people that sold shares and were happy not to pay tax) whereas the changes by the CNS have destroyed the processes of government affecting all of Thailand
I wish people would keep a sense of perspective… just because a corrupt rich businessman that uses bankruptcy to protect his assets and runs protests to expand his business empire tells you to attack Thaksin… why do you believe him and why dont you look at the broader picture to see where it all fits?
PAD’s by-election poison
Another David
who is the “other side” that you talk about?
I am suggesting that the ruling families should support all Thais in deciding who will be the government
the ruling families want to disenfranchise as many of the rest of the voters as they can get away with
what other side are you talking about?
PAD’s by-election poison
we need to keep in mind that PAD never has been and never wanted to be a political party, running for any office. the PADs program, if there is any, is to monitor justice, election fraud, corruption & cronism. no less, but not much more.
laws should be made by democratically elected decent lawmakers in the best interest of the majority of people and not by a bunch of greedy thugs in their own interest only.
example is tax-sins dubious sale of shin in 2006, made possible by ‘laws & rules’ implemented not for the thai people but for him alone, costing thailand billions in lost taxes, now in tax-sins deep pockets.
quote: “Criticisms of the sale focused on the allegations by Thaksin and a compliant government that the transaction was exempt from capital gains tax (as per Revenue Department and Stock Exchange of Thailand regulations – later determined by Thai courts not to be legal), the fact that the Thai company was sold to a Singaporean company, and the fact that the Thai law regarding foreign investments in the telecom sector had been amended just prior to the sale”. unquote
Interview with Professor Pasuk Phongpaichit
Pasuk and Chris Baker are my favourite political commentators on Thailand. But I agree with Observer, for the reasons Observer outlined, that the anti-Thaksin stuff is the weakest part her contribution.
No doubt Thaksin is a power-hungry scoundrel, but I can’t see that he is especially bad. Transparency International records no evidence of any increase in the perceived level of corruption in Thailand during his tenure.
Perhaps because he was an outsider, Thaksin was forced to use the democratic system to advance himself. The constraints of democracy meant that he had to do a certain amount of good to maintain power, no matter what his motives were. It is for the good, not the bad things he did, that the Bangkok insiders hate him. Democracy raises the price of power, and they hate it too.
New Mandala in The Age
hear hear nong noi, the usa is a great country today because its leadership aspired to greatness in respecting basic human rights (that has since been perverted somewhat by extreme liberalism).
there really is nothing holding back progress in every sense of the word for the beautiful country that is thailand; only for want of moral courage on the part of the thai government to uplift the quality of life for every thai citizen through politic, economic, & social reforms.
and so this is a call to thai policy makers (& PAD elitists) to understand their God-given mandate and to act responsibly; and exercise their power for the good of the people who voted them in for that very purpose?
anything less is to short-change your own country & fellow countrymen…
New Mandala in The Age
Thank you, Noi.
New Mandala in The Age
bosunj (post # 40):
<>
Yes, “inherently flawed” indeed for having the audacity to UNEQUALLY share our BLESSINGS! While the opposing view has the inherent virtue for EQUALLY sharing of their MISERIES!
<>
“Revealing racism” indeed, so racist that we just elected a minority to the highest office in the Nation!
Speaking from my personal experience of how I was treated as a poor little girl (part Thai part Chinese) in my motherland, the “pure” Thai never missed a chance to make fun of my “Chinese eyes”, called me “Loog Jegg” instead of addressing by my name. Please spare me the pontification on your notion of racism, I, as a long time U.S. resident (over 30 years) encountered racism in my own motherland more than I encountered in the U.S. Moreover, most of my friends in Thailand (of Chinese decent) had changed their Chinese last name to Thai last name, so that they could attend public school or work in the government sector.
I could never have accomplished what I have today had I still lived in Thailand. As a very poor little girl that divorced parents left with a grandmother, a snowball in hell had better odds than I did compared to what I am accomplishing today if I still living in Thailand!
I could give you a long list of very successful Asian people living in America that their motherland discarded them from the main society. Why? Because of American extraordinary devotion to equality in liberty and to provide opportunity for individuals to achieve a better life.
New Mandala in The Age
Joy (post #34):
You can question and challenge my so called “assertion” that Thaksin’s government is the government of the people, all you want. However, I derived my conclusion from the facts, not from biased opinion. And the fact remains that Thaksin was elected by a landslide margin TWICE! Thaksin had the mandate from the majority of Thai people, regardless of what you or Karl may think.
Your comment regarding the minority in Thailand will be left behind if democracy were to ALLOWED in Thailand. Contrary to your belief, look no further than the last election cycle in America (the melting pot), for a good example. Obama, a member of a minority group was elected to the highest office in the Nation! This historical moment for America is possible because of her extraordinary devotion to equality in liberty and to provide opportunity for individuals to achieve a better life.
Constituencies up for grabs
Pojaman is back! Will she stand? (Just kidding.)
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/asia-pacific/7768010.stm
Interview with Professor Pasuk Phongpaichit
factionalism is the real devil behind the constant woes of thailand. thaksin, like any savvy businessman, worked the system for his own good. certainly, he performed better than most of his predecessors due to his acumen and charisma; but ultimately he failed in the critical area of integrity and love for his nation. pity,
The crowd and the crown by Philip Bowring
Further to the legal issue, I guess the Thai courts will have to go through the motions of considering the charges against the PAD. But given their former lenience towards the PAD, and under the current political status quo, one would think that it would be very unlikely that they would get really tough on the PAD in the near future.
Also, one would think that Sondhi and Chamlong must have had an “insurance policy” before they decided to take the airports – or Government House, for that matter. For example, if the cases ever came to court and the judges looked like getting tough, more juicy details about who was supporting the PAD and what form that support took might find their way into the media.
I think there is every reason to believe that “the invisible hand” will see to it that the PAD are treated leniently by the courts, regardless of public opinion (I remember someone telling me once that one reason for the monarchy’s huge influence is that they never forget a favour and always repay debts of obligation).
Yet the courts will be under enormous pressure to find somebody responsible, both from within Thailand and internationally. So they are kind of between a rock and a hard place.
It will be interesting to see how they will resolve this one.
Normally you’d expect a whitewashing campaign launched through the network’s propaganda apparatus. But given the massive coverage by international media and the rapidly growing influence of the relatively freer internet media this is a dangerous game.
But every game is a dangerous game for the monarchy now.
New Mandala in The Age
i applaud HC Lau’s totally coherent, articulate take on the current situation in thailand. let’s not be sidestepped by the thin veneer of geo-politics; but rather be focussed on the “real” every day issues facing the man in the soi… every man; rich or poor, has a God-given right to live in dignity!
Constituencies up for grabs
Here’s hoping that these by-elections further bleed the bastards on both sides!
New Mandala in The Age
Democracy is nothing more than a tyranny of the majority.
Democracy like capitalism is inherently flawed.
Farang demanding that Thais adopt their inherently flawed system of governance and economics as superior to “consensus” governance are revealing their racisism and paternalistic sense of superiority.
Those posting here and elsewhere that the only true measure of success are Baht and Satang are the most flawed as people and the best example of how corrupt their western ideas truly are.
Lèse majesté and Harry Nicolaides
IMHO, harry N is an unfortunate pawn caught in the middle of a power struggle; used as a high-lighter by the PAD to further its sinister end..