I take issue with the articles imbalance in relation to the role of the PAD. In the all democracies have relied on the voice of the vocal minority to overcome entrenched corruption or simply bad government. We have many examples of this in the political kaleidoscope in Australia. It is unfortunate that in our western culture vocal or demonstrable anti-government activity is loosely placed in the “terrorist” portfolio. So much for our swing to the right. The end result being that issues such as the “Tampa and refugees” was not exposed for what it was: a morally corrupt treatment of refugees. Your article concludes”Whatever its faults the Thai Government was democratically elected and deserves Australia’s support.” What a conclusion!! The article does not address the significant level of corruption at government level that has taken place under the present and past leader’s. Only now the level of corruption under the Thaksin’s is being revealed. His cronies remain. Democracy does not exist when those in power blatantly abuse what are the democratic processes. The Australian government needs to be far more pro-active in demanding and requiring transparency in the election processes of Thailand. The army of Thailand is not the ideal watchdog for your so-called democratic processes.
Totally agree with Bill Robinson. Thaksin and party winning election after election has nothing to do with vote buying but everything to do with “doing something for people”
Corruption?? Please name me one member of the political leadership that is not corrupt. name one member of the upper echelon of the police or military that is not corrupt. If you do, please explain how an uncorrupt police / military / politician can afford the palacial homes, children overseas education etc on their income. (Thaksin was pol lt col)
Nganadeeleg hasn’t got a leg to stand on, Nobody here has said Thaksin did no wrong (we leave that ‘do no wrong’ stuff to PAD supporters) We simply said Thaksin did wrong like everyone else in the military / polical complex that is Thailand, but Thaksin did a lot of “RIGHT” that the previous govt and the PAD refused to do.
REASON – those dirty smelly farmers shouldn’t have any rights, otherwise they will get ahead of themselves and demand to eat at the same restaurants as us and who will wash our dishes after dinner for a pitance a month –
Please get that through the gooblegook that is clouding your mind
The frailty of the King is irrelevent – when he speaks Thais listen.
Actions speak much louder than words – in the recent past these have included endorsing the last coup, attending the funeral of a PAD activist and remaining silent during the present deep crisis. This clearly shows that the monarchy is aligned with the PAD movement in one form or another.
The PAD are causing enormous damage to Thailand, holding the country hostage against the wishes of the vast majority of Thais whom they clearly hold in contempt. Amidst their increasingly violent and criminal acts the PAD thugs claim to be acting in the name of the King. Meanwhile he remains silent while the Queen attends a PAD funeral.
Thugs approved and supported by the monarchy – not a good look.
This is not an exclusively Thai forum. If stating the blatantly obvious is perceived as rude by precious Thais and ignorant farangs – get over it.
I’m Thai.Well, it’s fine if Isaan people choose Taskin and if next time he becomes a PM through democractic means, I will certainly accept the result ( in fact, this time I accept the legitimacy of the current gov as well although I will not refrain from pointing out its flaws or jump in to cheer it alongside the Red shirts)..Bill Robinson, you raise good points about the Chinese in Thailand, but u also run the risk of labelling all Chinese as being greedy and self-serving.. Your representation of the Chinese bears so much resemblance to the way Pira Sudham depicts the Chinese in his fiction.. and I find this somewhat simplistic and overgeneralizing.. and not (adequately)taking into account the history of opression that early Chinese immigrants suffered from the Thai ruling class i.e. the explicit anti-Chinese policies endorsed in the early Bangkok era. Somehow this reminds me of the antagonism between the Chinese-Indonesians and the ‘indigenous’ Indonesians… I hope we stop condoning racial stereotypes and seek friendship,compromise and negotiation between people from different races .. Of course right now, the Chinese in Thailand occupy a relative high social and economic status, and we cannot disregard this unequal power relations between Isaan people and rich Chinese. This is certainly something that the government needs to address–allowing more income distribution and equal opportunities etc. Still I hope no one stirs the hatred between local Issarn people and urban Chinese until it could lead to tragedy like the one took place in Indonesia years ago.
I am a long term resident of T,Land.,in Isarn.No doubt Thaksin is corrupt, but corruption is endemic here,. Many on the P.A.D. are probably corrupt.This idiocy is about power. The people in P.A.D., historically have run the country, politically and economically from time immemorial.Now, they have lost their political power, and they are furious. Who are they? .They are Chinese Thais, who control over 90% of the non-agricultural economy, who detest and loath Isarn people, and have repressed them for years. They see Isarn people as having no intelligence, not worthy of being allowed to vote. They also see them as cannon fodder for industry, to be used and abused to advance their own wealth.Why do Isarn people love Thaksin?. Very simply, he was the first P.M. ever to seriously improve the lives of Isarn. Prior to Thaksin,the ruling elite in Bkk. ,refused to help the poor, peasant farmers, happy to ignore them.Thaksin did so much for them, like ,the village loan scheme, which angered the Chinese-Thai LOAN SHARKS, who were instantly wiped out of business, he built bitumen roads,set up the B30 health scheme, so that people who had never been able to afford to go a doctor, now could, saving so many lives . I could go on ,suffice to say Isarn people will forever remain indebted to Thaksin and any party he endorses, will automatically, become the Government of the day.This is why the P.A.D. hate democracy.And racially, the darker skin of Isarn
Disagree with everything that the PAD and its backers do. The PAD is simply a tool (pack of dogs) being used by people behind the scene. The target is not achieving democracy, it is getting rid of Thaksin.
The route taken is to impose itself on the majority of Thais. It is sad to see, in this day and age, that the feudal lords still have so much power in Thailand.
By the way, the people behind the street level PAD do not really care who or how many get hurt, they are always insulated from the damage, unless there is a real revolution.
The rich stay rich the poor stay poor and every now and then a rich may go bankrupt and a poor may luck out and become rich.
Amber Waves: I agree the PAD actions regarding Preah Vihear were disgraceful, but again, I can understand why the topic was taken up – not very smart of the government to have Thaksin’s lawyer negotiating the deal at the same time as the master is doing business deals with them.
I don’t intend to re-enter the fray and be dragged into picking sides – IMO there is much at fault on both (all) sides, but perhaps this crisis is a necessary step in bringing about a better Thailand for all Thai’s and in future there will be more compassion, tolerance & compromise.
Joy: Thanks
IMO, even with third hands and invisible forces, the PAD has no chance of winning in the long run – I just hope that their inevitable demise does not mean that a Thaksin is as good as it gets.
The gap in your analysis – and I realise it is just a newspaper opinion piece – is to explain why PAD can do what they are doing with apparent impunity. It is evident that they continue to be supported in the highest places. You hint at that, but with police, army, navy and air force apparently refusing to act against an illegal occupation of numerous sites, the implication is clear.
I was about to write something but I when I saw ‘nganadeeleg’s posts above, i realize that most of what I want to say have already been put forward impressively by her (or him?). .. so I will just add a bit more.. it would be great if u elaborate more and put more stress on this current government’s close link with Thaksin, and that it is perhaps not that loyal to democratic principles. Of course, the PAD leaders are so wrong in pursuing their political goals this way. Those leaders have been following contemptuous political strategies , using ‘higher’ institutions and ideals (e.g non-violence) to mask self-serving pursuits shamelessly. Nevertheless, a bit more emphasis on Taksin’s faults and some (or many?) of the Red-shirts’ blind worshipping of him would be nice. I know I will probably get a lot of flak from those who claim that there’s no other way to fight against the PAD but to join force with the Red Shirts. I beg to differ here. I think there are still a lot of Thais who dislike Taksin and refuse to go along with PAD’s craze for authoritarianism. Of course there’s nothing wrong with being Taksin’s fan– people have every right to choose their own leader(s), but don’t impose yr belief or ideology on others and label those who disagree with u as being pro-PAD, royalist or pro-military. Many foreigners perhaps feel that Thai people are indifferent to what’s going on in our country as long as it doesn’t affect their lives or money, this maybe true with some Thais but certainly CANNOT apply to all Thais.. Please be a bit be careful of branding all Thais as indifferent, passive and couldn’t care less abt the plight of the underdog, minorities, or disadvantaged groups… Well, I know no one says this here and Andrew Walker didn’t say anything like this in his article, I can just can’t help mentioning this here because I ‘ve seen it somewhere else and i think this stereotype of Thai people being passive and indifferent should be destabilized.. Of course, being a ‘stereotype’ does not mean it has nothing to do with reality, but it’s dangerous when it’s use to judge All Thais. ( I don’t deny that many Thais are now very violent, but I will not allow this stereotype of Thai being violent to be imposed on me and others who are not).
And the fuss the PAD kicked up over Preah Vihear — also an appeal to people’s better instincts?
If greed is what Thaksin about, fear (the “sky” is falling) and ignorance (we have only plastic clappers, we are totally non-violent, guns?- I see no guns, the media is unfair to us, only ASTV tells the truth) is what the PAD is about, yes?
Not too bad, but for balance perhaps you could have gone into the main priorities/objectives of the government and how this was a major factor in why PAD re-activated some time after the elections.
btw, Whilst I do not support the actions of the PAD and I particularly dislike Sondhi’s rhetoric, I can understand the frustration felt by many of the PAD rank and file at the governments unwavering singleminded efforts to whitewash Thaksin.
Likewise, I can understand the frustration felt by the PPP supporters at the way PAD has been allowed to get away with being unlawful.
What’s needed to alleviate the tension is for the PAD to acknowledge the rural masses right to an equal vote, and at the same time the rural masses need to understand that right comes with a responsibilty to not continually reward corrupt political practices.
The rural masses have an overwhelming electoral superiority – I still think it is in their power to end this mess, but only if they become more discerning in their electoral choices and acknowledge the many legitimate concerns of the PAD.
For a concise pro-PAD, anti-government coverage, go no further than ABC Radio (Australia).
Karen Percy is doing a fabulous job of garnering sympathy for the PAD – especially when she describes its support base as including middle-aged women and retirees.
Still not a word on the movement’s aims (except to bring down the government) nor its leadership.
Jonfernquest is quite right, the author of this piece, and those of the related piece published today in The Age, seem oblivious, if not wilfully blind, to the full array of circumstances which, combined, impel the PAD. As to whether royal intervention is likely, the question, surely, is: what will р╣Ар╕Ыр╕гр╕б р╕Хр╕┤р╕Ур╕кр╕╣р╕ер╕▓р╕Щр╕Щр╕Чр╣М (Ret. Gen. Prem) and other trusted advisers recommend?
Thailand is now hopelessly divided. There are no leaders who enjoy sufficient respect to drive a grand bargain between its polarised parties. The age and frailty of King Bhumibol Adulyadej make intervention by him a forlorn hope.
Suriyasai says they will fight, they want the govt to go so that new politics can be implemented. No budging, but his criticisms of the Army chief suggest that PAD feel they have lost any chance of a coup. Guess the latter depends a bit on violence and how much of it.
Facebook 
Twitter 
Soundcloud 
Youtube 
Rss
New Mandala in The Age
I take issue with the articles imbalance in relation to the role of the PAD. In the all democracies have relied on the voice of the vocal minority to overcome entrenched corruption or simply bad government. We have many examples of this in the political kaleidoscope in Australia. It is unfortunate that in our western culture vocal or demonstrable anti-government activity is loosely placed in the “terrorist” portfolio. So much for our swing to the right. The end result being that issues such as the “Tampa and refugees” was not exposed for what it was: a morally corrupt treatment of refugees. Your article concludes”Whatever its faults the Thai Government was democratically elected and deserves Australia’s support.” What a conclusion!! The article does not address the significant level of corruption at government level that has taken place under the present and past leader’s. Only now the level of corruption under the Thaksin’s is being revealed. His cronies remain. Democracy does not exist when those in power blatantly abuse what are the democratic processes. The Australian government needs to be far more pro-active in demanding and requiring transparency in the election processes of Thailand. The army of Thailand is not the ideal watchdog for your so-called democratic processes.
Too late for royal intervention?
Of course I’m not offended. This is a constructive discussion.
New Mandala in The Age
Totally agree with Bill Robinson. Thaksin and party winning election after election has nothing to do with vote buying but everything to do with “doing something for people”
Corruption?? Please name me one member of the political leadership that is not corrupt. name one member of the upper echelon of the police or military that is not corrupt. If you do, please explain how an uncorrupt police / military / politician can afford the palacial homes, children overseas education etc on their income. (Thaksin was pol lt col)
Nganadeeleg hasn’t got a leg to stand on, Nobody here has said Thaksin did no wrong (we leave that ‘do no wrong’ stuff to PAD supporters) We simply said Thaksin did wrong like everyone else in the military / polical complex that is Thailand, but Thaksin did a lot of “RIGHT” that the previous govt and the PAD refused to do.
REASON – those dirty smelly farmers shouldn’t have any rights, otherwise they will get ahead of themselves and demand to eat at the same restaurants as us and who will wash our dishes after dinner for a pitance a month –
Please get that through the gooblegook that is clouding your mind
Too late for royal intervention?
– Great article.
The frailty of the King is irrelevent – when he speaks Thais listen.
Actions speak much louder than words – in the recent past these have included endorsing the last coup, attending the funeral of a PAD activist and remaining silent during the present deep crisis. This clearly shows that the monarchy is aligned with the PAD movement in one form or another.
The PAD are causing enormous damage to Thailand, holding the country hostage against the wishes of the vast majority of Thais whom they clearly hold in contempt. Amidst their increasingly violent and criminal acts the PAD thugs claim to be acting in the name of the King. Meanwhile he remains silent while the Queen attends a PAD funeral.
Thugs approved and supported by the monarchy – not a good look.
This is not an exclusively Thai forum. If stating the blatantly obvious is perceived as rude by precious Thais and ignorant farangs – get over it.
New Mandala in The Age
I’m Thai.Well, it’s fine if Isaan people choose Taskin and if next time he becomes a PM through democractic means, I will certainly accept the result ( in fact, this time I accept the legitimacy of the current gov as well although I will not refrain from pointing out its flaws or jump in to cheer it alongside the Red shirts)..Bill Robinson, you raise good points about the Chinese in Thailand, but u also run the risk of labelling all Chinese as being greedy and self-serving.. Your representation of the Chinese bears so much resemblance to the way Pira Sudham depicts the Chinese in his fiction.. and I find this somewhat simplistic and overgeneralizing.. and not (adequately)taking into account the history of opression that early Chinese immigrants suffered from the Thai ruling class i.e. the explicit anti-Chinese policies endorsed in the early Bangkok era. Somehow this reminds me of the antagonism between the Chinese-Indonesians and the ‘indigenous’ Indonesians… I hope we stop condoning racial stereotypes and seek friendship,compromise and negotiation between people from different races .. Of course right now, the Chinese in Thailand occupy a relative high social and economic status, and we cannot disregard this unequal power relations between Isaan people and rich Chinese. This is certainly something that the government needs to address–allowing more income distribution and equal opportunities etc. Still I hope no one stirs the hatred between local Issarn people and urban Chinese until it could lead to tragedy like the one took place in Indonesia years ago.
New Mandala in The Age
“suffice to say Isarn people will forever remain indebted to Thaksin and any party he endorses”
Looks like decades of fun – just what the country needs – another ‘He who can do no wrong’ father figure.
New Mandala in The Age
I am a long term resident of T,Land.,in Isarn.No doubt Thaksin is corrupt, but corruption is endemic here,. Many on the P.A.D. are probably corrupt.This idiocy is about power. The people in P.A.D., historically have run the country, politically and economically from time immemorial.Now, they have lost their political power, and they are furious. Who are they? .They are Chinese Thais, who control over 90% of the non-agricultural economy, who detest and loath Isarn people, and have repressed them for years. They see Isarn people as having no intelligence, not worthy of being allowed to vote. They also see them as cannon fodder for industry, to be used and abused to advance their own wealth.Why do Isarn people love Thaksin?. Very simply, he was the first P.M. ever to seriously improve the lives of Isarn. Prior to Thaksin,the ruling elite in Bkk. ,refused to help the poor, peasant farmers, happy to ignore them.Thaksin did so much for them, like ,the village loan scheme, which angered the Chinese-Thai LOAN SHARKS, who were instantly wiped out of business, he built bitumen roads,set up the B30 health scheme, so that people who had never been able to afford to go a doctor, now could, saving so many lives . I could go on ,suffice to say Isarn people will forever remain indebted to Thaksin and any party he endorses, will automatically, become the Government of the day.This is why the P.A.D. hate democracy.And racially, the darker skin of Isarn
New Mandala in The Age
Nga,
Disagree with everything that the PAD and its backers do. The PAD is simply a tool (pack of dogs) being used by people behind the scene. The target is not achieving democracy, it is getting rid of Thaksin.
The route taken is to impose itself on the majority of Thais. It is sad to see, in this day and age, that the feudal lords still have so much power in Thailand.
By the way, the people behind the street level PAD do not really care who or how many get hurt, they are always insulated from the damage, unless there is a real revolution.
The rich stay rich the poor stay poor and every now and then a rich may go bankrupt and a poor may luck out and become rich.
p.s. also a victim of PAD actions
New Mandala in The Age
Amber Waves: I agree the PAD actions regarding Preah Vihear were disgraceful, but again, I can understand why the topic was taken up – not very smart of the government to have Thaksin’s lawyer negotiating the deal at the same time as the master is doing business deals with them.
I don’t intend to re-enter the fray and be dragged into picking sides – IMO there is much at fault on both (all) sides, but perhaps this crisis is a necessary step in bringing about a better Thailand for all Thai’s and in future there will be more compassion, tolerance & compromise.
Joy: Thanks
IMO, even with third hands and invisible forces, the PAD has no chance of winning in the long run – I just hope that their inevitable demise does not mean that a Thaksin is as good as it gets.
Too late for royal intervention?
This article does help shed light to the question why the PAD is so immune to law enforcement and why it is so arrogant and confident of its victory.
New Mandala in The Age
The gap in your analysis – and I realise it is just a newspaper opinion piece – is to explain why PAD can do what they are doing with apparent impunity. It is evident that they continue to be supported in the highest places. You hint at that, but with police, army, navy and air force apparently refusing to act against an illegal occupation of numerous sites, the implication is clear.
New Mandala in The Age
I was about to write something but I when I saw ‘nganadeeleg’s posts above, i realize that most of what I want to say have already been put forward impressively by her (or him?). .. so I will just add a bit more.. it would be great if u elaborate more and put more stress on this current government’s close link with Thaksin, and that it is perhaps not that loyal to democratic principles. Of course, the PAD leaders are so wrong in pursuing their political goals this way. Those leaders have been following contemptuous political strategies , using ‘higher’ institutions and ideals (e.g non-violence) to mask self-serving pursuits shamelessly. Nevertheless, a bit more emphasis on Taksin’s faults and some (or many?) of the Red-shirts’ blind worshipping of him would be nice. I know I will probably get a lot of flak from those who claim that there’s no other way to fight against the PAD but to join force with the Red Shirts. I beg to differ here. I think there are still a lot of Thais who dislike Taksin and refuse to go along with PAD’s craze for authoritarianism. Of course there’s nothing wrong with being Taksin’s fan– people have every right to choose their own leader(s), but don’t impose yr belief or ideology on others and label those who disagree with u as being pro-PAD, royalist or pro-military. Many foreigners perhaps feel that Thai people are indifferent to what’s going on in our country as long as it doesn’t affect their lives or money, this maybe true with some Thais but certainly CANNOT apply to all Thais.. Please be a bit be careful of branding all Thais as indifferent, passive and couldn’t care less abt the plight of the underdog, minorities, or disadvantaged groups… Well, I know no one says this here and Andrew Walker didn’t say anything like this in his article, I can just can’t help mentioning this here because I ‘ve seen it somewhere else and i think this stereotype of Thai people being passive and indifferent should be destabilized.. Of course, being a ‘stereotype’ does not mean it has nothing to do with reality, but it’s dangerous when it’s use to judge All Thais. ( I don’t deny that many Thais are now very violent, but I will not allow this stereotype of Thai being violent to be imposed on me and others who are not).
New Mandala in The Age
nganadeeleg-
And the fuss the PAD kicked up over Preah Vihear — also an appeal to people’s better instincts?
If greed is what Thaksin about, fear (the “sky” is falling) and ignorance (we have only plastic clappers, we are totally non-violent, guns?- I see no guns, the media is unfair to us, only ASTV tells the truth) is what the PAD is about, yes?
New Mandala in The Age
addendum: The PAD also need to acknowledge the aspirations of the poor masses.
But what’s logic got to do with any of this, when greed, fear and ignorance are easier substitutes?????
New Mandala in The Age
Not too bad, but for balance perhaps you could have gone into the main priorities/objectives of the government and how this was a major factor in why PAD re-activated some time after the elections.
btw, Whilst I do not support the actions of the PAD and I particularly dislike Sondhi’s rhetoric, I can understand the frustration felt by many of the PAD rank and file at the governments unwavering singleminded efforts to whitewash Thaksin.
Likewise, I can understand the frustration felt by the PPP supporters at the way PAD has been allowed to get away with being unlawful.
What’s needed to alleviate the tension is for the PAD to acknowledge the rural masses right to an equal vote, and at the same time the rural masses need to understand that right comes with a responsibilty to not continually reward corrupt political practices.
The rural masses have an overwhelming electoral superiority – I still think it is in their power to end this mess, but only if they become more discerning in their electoral choices and acknowledge the many legitimate concerns of the PAD.
Too late for royal intervention?
Anthony, do you mean that Prem is impelling PAD?
Coup or crackdown?
For a concise pro-PAD, anti-government coverage, go no further than ABC Radio (Australia).
Karen Percy is doing a fabulous job of garnering sympathy for the PAD – especially when she describes its support base as including middle-aged women and retirees.
Still not a word on the movement’s aims (except to bring down the government) nor its leadership.
Too late for royal intervention?
Jonfernquest is quite right, the author of this piece, and those of the related piece published today in The Age, seem oblivious, if not wilfully blind, to the full array of circumstances which, combined, impel the PAD. As to whether royal intervention is likely, the question, surely, is: what will р╣Ар╕Ыр╕гр╕б р╕Хр╕┤р╕Ур╕кр╕╣р╕ер╕▓р╕Щр╕Щр╕Чр╣М (Ret. Gen. Prem) and other trusted advisers recommend?
Too late for royal intervention?
From the BBC’s Jonathan Head:
Coup or crackdown?
Suriyasai says they will fight, they want the govt to go so that new politics can be implemented. No budging, but his criticisms of the Army chief suggest that PAD feel they have lost any chance of a coup. Guess the latter depends a bit on violence and how much of it.