Evidently, Hla Oo, you’ve never heard of Marx saying “As for me, I am not a Marxist”. Was Hitler, founder of the National Socialist Workers Party of Germany, socialist? What percentage of Buddhists do you reckon keep the Five Precepts? Judge ye not a book by its cover. All that glitters etc. … get it?
thank you for you assurance that the PAD would pack up if the Democrats formed the government
This could happen if the Democrats cleaned themselves of their links to the PAD and then approached the minor parties and any PPP defectors to form an alternate coalition
Is this how you see it could happen?
Ummm before we get too far along this track… what are your bona fides for knowing what the PAD will accept?
How do you know this to be true?
and, as they say in the spy books, why should we believe you?
I remember Paul Ginsborg very well as an uber-cool Marxist lecturer when I was at Cambridge 27 years ago. I seem to recall he was a member of the hard-left SWP, and an expert on Gramsci. He was a strong advocate of extra-parliamentary action as a necessary part of a healthy democracy, as you’d expect from the SWP. From the tone of this book his views seem to have mellowed over the years, although he was never a rigid ideologue.
If your main concern is the current ongoing political “dogfight” in Thailand, I must emphasize that it’s only a power play between two “big brother”. Democracy has nothing to do with this .
Would Democrat party become government today, PAD will pack up and go home in no time, no more cry for coup, no more cry for any changes at all. It is that simple and true!
Thanks for the link to the Erik Davis blog (Death Power). The Pretas are Coming! is quite a boon for those of us who’ve heard a lot about them but haven’t seen them yet. Couldn’t make it through the Petavatthu, just too ghoulish and scary. The Vimanavatthu was much more comforting. Looking forward to more papers, books, and blog entries from you on this topic, Erik.
Dog Lover, Nick suggested it in #6. I expect he’ll give us some names (and, along with it, some hope) soon…
The bombing of PAD at Government House last night suggests PMThaksin at his impatient and violent best – only a day or two after openly declaring war against his enemies. As we have suggested, Thai politics at this moment has to be followed by the minute.
KhunHCLau. Thank you for the very interesting comments on Malaysian politics. Personally, I still hope Anwar gets his chance to lead the country. I totally agree with the “… A better balance of power with a bit more check and balance and better scrutiny” – for a vibrant democracy, I will argue anytime that this is as important as electoral politics. And we are also in agreement there “better life all round”.
Yes, I am aware of Malaysia’s inner security act. We have one too, fortunately it is very rarely exercised – at least for political ends and except in the South. The Lese Majeste law is as far as the Thai elites will go in their civil war… But with increasing violence, that is not guaranteed…
my quick scan tells me Ginsborg thesis is that democracy needs to be distributed, not just national but regional, towns, villages need participatory democracy
setting time limits and requiring elections for people at each level seems the way to introduce this quickly…
I think Thaksin annoyed a lot of officials by limiting their terms but sounds like he was trying to distribute democracy
there is tension in democratic states because of the capitalist business structure that has built itself on top of the underlying democracy
the next stage after political democracy is industrial democracy, enforcing democratic structures into capitalism, requiring acceptance of democratic unionism in workers, requiring democratic processes within business management and boards, and co-incidently into the military
Thailand is just discovering the benefit sand opportunities of political democracy and perhaps this is why the PAD and their traditional power-based backers are reacting so badly because they recognise that the next stage will directly affect the relationships between them and the workers in their businesses
Like Glenn, I was also in Luang Prabang last week. The last time I was there was in 2002.
I can agree with Creager that cell phones, the net and ATMs have arrived. However, pizza and other tourist niceities such as English books, fine dining and swanky hotels were certainly around in 2002. The only difference now is that they are there in much greater numbers. Luang Prabang is most definitely a comfortable place to visit – no convenience is too far away and prices are very low (for the average foreigner, at least).
Downtown Luang Prabang in 2008 seemed to me to be a hive of construction with dozens of buildings being renovated and refitted, keeping in line with local architectural styles, of course. The whole of the downtown area now seems to be set up to cater to the whims of tourists – guesthouses, tourist agents, massage parlours and even cocktail bars!
Needless to say, there appeared to be very little in languid Luang Prabang to suggest to the average tourist that there were any human rights or democratic reform issues in the country.
So let me get this right. We have a report from the Manager that reports a senate committee investigation by PAD-aligned senators who hang out at the PAD demonstration and speak on the PAD stage and that is translated on a website that openly espouses PAD. There probably couldn’t be any chance of bias in that kind of report. Charles F. hits it – we are getting into legend rather than much else now.
Portman #89: “…rampant corruption in the Ministry of Education.” Any idea where I can get info on this? All I’ve been able to come up with is recent reports on disguised bribes to individual schools, nothing on the MOE itself. Pasuk & Sungsidh (1994) is now well out of date.
amberwave, I just reported what I know from Manager.co.th in a shorter poorer English version for an update on event on October 7. I haven’t concluded anywhere yet that this mysterious man is PAD or not. -Frankly-, I don’t care.. even though, one day the truths reveals that he was really a PAD. He or those carried arms around and hurt other people will be condemned. Not different from those Police who hurt many people.
And not different from whoever who kept firing a bomb into the government house. Do you know? Around 3-4am today, another bomb dropped inside the government house area. BangkokBizNews reports “in front of PAD stage”.. over 10 injuries.. “1 just reported DEAD”
PAD is guilty to commit a crime on acquiring a government house area and block several road, disturbing other people.
But no one is legitimate to fire a bomb or kill anyone by that.
No need to mention about government’s current wrong doings
Sae-dang just spoke to the press that he doesn’t care anymore if his daughter (who live in the next room in the same house) will die in a protesting group.. What kind of person is this?
Admit it, everyone is just a normal person. We are not saints.. And no one here is.
Moe Aung, you are incredible. Blindly denying that the founders and the whole top echelon of Socialist parties in Burma were not Socialists! What’s next? Carl Marx wasn’t a Communist and Lenin was a capitalist and Stalin was a kind and merciful man!
Aiontay, it is too late now. Because of the strict sanctions they couldn’t even apply for a tourist visa to the west. But hundreds of Kachins are leaving Burma for the West every year. There are a few halfway houses in Bangkok I know of that specialize in assisting them for resettlement in USA, Australia, and a few European countries.
Sidh: did you mean to suggest that there is a minority of politicians who are high- and civic-minded, not greedy, hopeful, principled, and high quality amongst the TRT/PPP group when you stated: “But pray introduce us to these high-minded TRT/PPP pollies (among the majority of greedy, hopeless, unprincipled, self-serving low quality stock)…”?
It is difficult to compare Malaysian politics with Thailand as the parameters are quite different.
Mathatir had (still have i believe) a database of weakness of all his fellow politicians and used that info to control them. he came close to being ousted a couple of times during his tenure, once by Tengku razaleigh and the second time by Anwar Ibrahim. He won the UMNO presidency only by two votes when challenghed by TZ, and was being pressured by UMNO inner circle to give way to Anwar when the 1997 economic crisis hit Malaysia. The charges against Anwar was badly setup, but Anwar was known as a bi-sexual even during his student union days (for your info – my age group). Nobody bothered too much about it as “gays” are well tolerated in Malaysia – just tune into any Malaysian TV channel.
Tolerence or not it is still a crime and Mahathir made used of that as other stuff would open up a can of worms, as Anwar was privy to many many behind the scene “stuff”. Personnaly I have first hand experience with some of the dealings ( I am afraid I am not at liberty to discuss them) but the charges were made to stick regardless of evidence and the presiding judge subsequently retired.
Anwar was and still is a great orator and a very charismatic leader. His revival also rode on the political expediency required by the opposition if they want to make any headway in the march Election, which saw a hugh upheaval in the Malaysian political scene.
The end result of all that is a curtailment of some mega projects and a re-look at the distribution of “capital creation” policy by the ruling party. As far as I am concern it is a good thing. A better balance of power with a bit more check and balance and better scrutiny. “better live all round” – That’s all I want.
PS – BTW, if I don’t post anything after this for more than a couple of weeks, send me a note at the govt detention camp
I am not a big fan of any politician – I am just a big fan of better living for the ordinary folks. For all the big fan and supporters of the “democratic” party (quotes intentional) and the PAD, please name one thing good that the ‘democratic” party has done for the better living of ordinary Thai citizens.
I don’t think the views of these articles are mutually exclusive.
I was in Laos last week. Luang Prabang is spectacular and the weather this time of year is simply outstanding. Although I personally didn’t run across any of these tourists with bad attitudes the article mentions.
And for sure there is plenty of corruption and other abuse taking place there. Just as there is in every other country in this neighborhood.
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Ashley South on liberal-democratic interventions
Evidently, Hla Oo, you’ve never heard of Marx saying “As for me, I am not a Marxist”. Was Hitler, founder of the National Socialist Workers Party of Germany, socialist? What percentage of Buddhists do you reckon keep the Five Precepts? Judge ye not a book by its cover. All that glitters etc. … get it?
(Thai) Democracy: Crisis and Renewal
doctorJ…
thank you for you assurance that the PAD would pack up if the Democrats formed the government
This could happen if the Democrats cleaned themselves of their links to the PAD and then approached the minor parties and any PPP defectors to form an alternate coalition
Is this how you see it could happen?
Ummm before we get too far along this track… what are your bona fides for knowing what the PAD will accept?
How do you know this to be true?
and, as they say in the spy books, why should we believe you?
(Thai) Democracy: Crisis and Renewal
I remember Paul Ginsborg very well as an uber-cool Marxist lecturer when I was at Cambridge 27 years ago. I seem to recall he was a member of the hard-left SWP, and an expert on Gramsci. He was a strong advocate of extra-parliamentary action as a necessary part of a healthy democracy, as you’d expect from the SWP. From the tone of this book his views seem to have mellowed over the years, although he was never a rigid ideologue.
(Thai) Democracy: Crisis and Renewal
If your main concern is the current ongoing political “dogfight” in Thailand, I must emphasize that it’s only a power play between two “big brother”. Democracy has nothing to do with this .
Would Democrat party become government today, PAD will pack up and go home in no time, no more cry for coup, no more cry for any changes at all. It is that simple and true!
Cambodia’s clogs
Thanks for the link to the Erik Davis blog (Death Power). The Pretas are Coming! is quite a boon for those of us who’ve heard a lot about them but haven’t seen them yet. Couldn’t make it through the Petavatthu, just too ghoulish and scary. The Vimanavatthu was much more comforting. Looking forward to more papers, books, and blog entries from you on this topic, Erik.
(Thai) Democracy: Crisis and Renewal
Thanks Andrew for the brilliant review of a very timely book. I hope to get a copy of Ginsborg’s book soon.
What next in Thai politics?
Dog Lover, Nick suggested it in #6. I expect he’ll give us some names (and, along with it, some hope) soon…
The bombing of PAD at Government House last night suggests PMThaksin at his impatient and violent best – only a day or two after openly declaring war against his enemies. As we have suggested, Thai politics at this moment has to be followed by the minute.
“Fatal blast hits Bangkok protest ” in
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/asia-pacific/7738853.stm
On Thaksin
KhunHCLau. Thank you for the very interesting comments on Malaysian politics. Personally, I still hope Anwar gets his chance to lead the country. I totally agree with the “… A better balance of power with a bit more check and balance and better scrutiny” – for a vibrant democracy, I will argue anytime that this is as important as electoral politics. And we are also in agreement there “better life all round”.
Yes, I am aware of Malaysia’s inner security act. We have one too, fortunately it is very rarely exercised – at least for political ends and except in the South. The Lese Majeste law is as far as the Thai elites will go in their civil war… But with increasing violence, that is not guaranteed…
(Thai) Democracy: Crisis and Renewal
interesting….
my quick scan tells me Ginsborg thesis is that democracy needs to be distributed, not just national but regional, towns, villages need participatory democracy
setting time limits and requiring elections for people at each level seems the way to introduce this quickly…
I think Thaksin annoyed a lot of officials by limiting their terms but sounds like he was trying to distribute democracy
there is tension in democratic states because of the capitalist business structure that has built itself on top of the underlying democracy
the next stage after political democracy is industrial democracy, enforcing democratic structures into capitalism, requiring acceptance of democratic unionism in workers, requiring democratic processes within business management and boards, and co-incidently into the military
Thailand is just discovering the benefit sand opportunities of political democracy and perhaps this is why the PAD and their traditional power-based backers are reacting so badly because they recognise that the next stage will directly affect the relationships between them and the workers in their businesses
“Now, Western tourists are the kings and queens”
Like Glenn, I was also in Luang Prabang last week. The last time I was there was in 2002.
I can agree with Creager that cell phones, the net and ATMs have arrived. However, pizza and other tourist niceities such as English books, fine dining and swanky hotels were certainly around in 2002. The only difference now is that they are there in much greater numbers. Luang Prabang is most definitely a comfortable place to visit – no convenience is too far away and prices are very low (for the average foreigner, at least).
Downtown Luang Prabang in 2008 seemed to me to be a hive of construction with dozens of buildings being renovated and refitted, keeping in line with local architectural styles, of course. The whole of the downtown area now seems to be set up to cater to the whims of tourists – guesthouses, tourist agents, massage parlours and even cocktail bars!
Needless to say, there appeared to be very little in languid Luang Prabang to suggest to the average tourist that there were any human rights or democratic reform issues in the country.
What happened on 7/10/2008?
So let me get this right. We have a report from the Manager that reports a senate committee investigation by PAD-aligned senators who hang out at the PAD demonstration and speak on the PAD stage and that is translated on a website that openly espouses PAD. There probably couldn’t be any chance of bias in that kind of report. Charles F. hits it – we are getting into legend rather than much else now.
What happened on 7/10/2008?
Portman #89: “…rampant corruption in the Ministry of Education.” Any idea where I can get info on this? All I’ve been able to come up with is recent reports on disguised bribes to individual schools, nothing on the MOE itself. Pasuk & Sungsidh (1994) is now well out of date.
What happened on 7/10/2008?
amberwave, I just reported what I know from Manager.co.th in a shorter poorer English version for an update on event on October 7. I haven’t concluded anywhere yet that this mysterious man is PAD or not. -Frankly-, I don’t care.. even though, one day the truths reveals that he was really a PAD. He or those carried arms around and hurt other people will be condemned. Not different from those Police who hurt many people.
Here are two reports for October 7 from the National Human Rights Commission
And not different from whoever who kept firing a bomb into the government house. Do you know? Around 3-4am today, another bomb dropped inside the government house area. BangkokBizNews reports “in front of PAD stage”.. over 10 injuries.. “1 just reported DEAD”
PAD is guilty to commit a crime on acquiring a government house area and block several road, disturbing other people.
But no one is legitimate to fire a bomb or kill anyone by that.
No need to mention about government’s current wrong doings
Sae-dang just spoke to the press that he doesn’t care anymore if his daughter (who live in the next room in the same house) will die in a protesting group.. What kind of person is this?
Admit it, everyone is just a normal person. We are not saints.. And no one here is.
Ashley South on liberal-democratic interventions
Moe Aung, you are incredible. Blindly denying that the founders and the whole top echelon of Socialist parties in Burma were not Socialists! What’s next? Carl Marx wasn’t a Communist and Lenin was a capitalist and Stalin was a kind and merciful man!
Aiontay, it is too late now. Because of the strict sanctions they couldn’t even apply for a tourist visa to the west. But hundreds of Kachins are leaving Burma for the West every year. There are a few halfway houses in Bangkok I know of that specialize in assisting them for resettlement in USA, Australia, and a few European countries.
What happened on 7/10/2008?
I suppose the next thing we’ll be hearing about here is: a grassy knoll, magic bullets, and of course, CIA involvement.
With apologies to those not familiar with current Americana.
What next in Thai politics?
Sidh: did you mean to suggest that there is a minority of politicians who are high- and civic-minded, not greedy, hopeful, principled, and high quality amongst the TRT/PPP group when you stated: “But pray introduce us to these high-minded TRT/PPP pollies (among the majority of greedy, hopeless, unprincipled, self-serving low quality stock)…”?
Cambodia’s clogs
Here’s one of my daily reads:
Andy’s Cambodia (Arts, culture and sport)
On Thaksin
Koon Sidh,
It is difficult to compare Malaysian politics with Thailand as the parameters are quite different.
Mathatir had (still have i believe) a database of weakness of all his fellow politicians and used that info to control them. he came close to being ousted a couple of times during his tenure, once by Tengku razaleigh and the second time by Anwar Ibrahim. He won the UMNO presidency only by two votes when challenghed by TZ, and was being pressured by UMNO inner circle to give way to Anwar when the 1997 economic crisis hit Malaysia. The charges against Anwar was badly setup, but Anwar was known as a bi-sexual even during his student union days (for your info – my age group). Nobody bothered too much about it as “gays” are well tolerated in Malaysia – just tune into any Malaysian TV channel.
Tolerence or not it is still a crime and Mahathir made used of that as other stuff would open up a can of worms, as Anwar was privy to many many behind the scene “stuff”. Personnaly I have first hand experience with some of the dealings ( I am afraid I am not at liberty to discuss them) but the charges were made to stick regardless of evidence and the presiding judge subsequently retired.
Anwar was and still is a great orator and a very charismatic leader. His revival also rode on the political expediency required by the opposition if they want to make any headway in the march Election, which saw a hugh upheaval in the Malaysian political scene.
The end result of all that is a curtailment of some mega projects and a re-look at the distribution of “capital creation” policy by the ruling party. As far as I am concern it is a good thing. A better balance of power with a bit more check and balance and better scrutiny. “better live all round” – That’s all I want.
PS – BTW, if I don’t post anything after this for more than a couple of weeks, send me a note at the govt detention camp
Even
What next in Thai politics?
I am not a big fan of any politician – I am just a big fan of better living for the ordinary folks. For all the big fan and supporters of the “democratic” party (quotes intentional) and the PAD, please name one thing good that the ‘democratic” party has done for the better living of ordinary Thai citizens.
“Now, Western tourists are the kings and queens”
I don’t think the views of these articles are mutually exclusive.
I was in Laos last week. Luang Prabang is spectacular and the weather this time of year is simply outstanding. Although I personally didn’t run across any of these tourists with bad attitudes the article mentions.
And for sure there is plenty of corruption and other abuse taking place there. Just as there is in every other country in this neighborhood.