I have just arrived home from a very peaceful but inspiring rally at
Rajamangala Stadium
I did a careful estimate of the number of people that attended…
in the stands there were between 60,000 to 70,000 people
(I understand the total seating in the stands is supposed to be 80,000,
the sections at te northern end were not much populated because they
were behind the stage area and the audio was too echoing there)… I
will go with 60,000
plus, the track and sports field area was pretty much covered with
sitting people, the front third of the ground was densely populated with
people on chairs, the rear third less so with people seated on plastic
and boards… more difficult to count, but its a big area
I believe the ground area contained at least the same number as the
stands… therefore between 120,000 to 140,000 people
a massive crowd of happy enthusiastic people, lots of conversations
between strangers, clapping, standing and happy smiles to each other
during the speeches
its obvious democracy and the policies of the Thaksin led government are
very popular
the crowd responded enthusiastically to calls to confront the tanks if
the military try to stage a coup!
by the way… I saw a report somewhere that people were nearly tearful in sympathy for Thaksin… but my observation is they just want him back here to help them save Thailsnd from the PAD and the tanks
protesting to reduce corrupt politcs doesnt make sense because
if the PAD wins corruption will be worse… like it was after the coup
and the CNS people and their backers including academics got rich, without doing anything useful for the country except try to close it all down…..
Thaksin makes money by being a smart and lucky businessman… the
military and traditional rich make money from corruption like illegal
titles to property in a national park, lottery rake off, drugs, logging
and the other things that Thaksin cut down on… which is why they hate him so much…
Transparency International noted that public corruption was less
under the Thaksin democratic governments than previous
intrinsically, democratically elected governments have to be less corrupt than nominated governments…
democratically elected governments are accountable to the people
who are nominated governments accountable to?
check corruption in the CNS and governments previous to the 1997
constitution… as they say, “where are the receipts”.. there arent any
because deals are done on the golf course so Sondhi and his mates can
conveniently ignore them
I think your relatives and friends think they can be more free to run their businesses any way they wish under the traditional governments so maybe they have their personal reasons for wanting a return to the previous inequitable rule…. we can respect this… it will influence their vote… but they must also respect the majority of Thais who want to move forward to better opportunity and equity for all!
I’m not sure if the policy about high-quality posting still stands. The previous contributor (mungo Gubbins) should expand a bit further what is the relevance between a sarcastic remark on Thaksin’s wealth and the implications of his speech at this rally.
I think Thaksin did a good job in presenting himself in a rational and sympathetic manner, especially when compared to the language and reasoning used by the PAD leaders. It is understandable also that he couldn’t say much as many groups, including the judges and the military, were breathing down his neck. The threat of another of jail time if he spoke badly of the justice system (as reported by the BKK Post) was very telling. I didn’t get the opportunity to listen to the whole speech but as much as I heard, I agree with him in many points, particularly the much needed attention to prepare ourselves against the looming global financial crisis, the ruin of Thai democracy, and the double standards being applied in today’s politics. I am glad that the rally was carried out and ended peacefully. I would say that it has served its purpose well, particularly by giving the opportunity for people who were frustrated of the PAD’s political discourse to show their numbers and for Thaksin to show his oppositions that he is still very much in the picture.
It was reassuring to hear from Thaksin that he’d made enough money from the sale of Man City FC to support his family. We wouldn’t want the poor little darlings to go hungry would we?
Colum, thanks for your words of wisdom. I think. But I amconfused about “the worship of a python suffocating babies.” I never see this. I live on a farm. Where you see this?
You say “these days Thai subjects can hardly be labeled citizens with any substance”
Why you talk like this? Why you angry with Thai people. You angry with me too. I feel. Is this true?
BkkOptimist you are right. Many of my mother in law’s friends have spent a lot of time at Government House in support of the PAD. They are ordinary middle class Thai Chinese house wives and small business owners. They are self sufficient financially and have absolutely no interest in being paid in a few hundred baht a day for their support. They are just sick to death of self serving politicians getting away with anything from murder to corruption and stealing their tax money.
Thanks Lleij Samuel Schwartz #6 for pointing that out. I argue that Crown Property Bureau’s very long term approach to real estate is in stark contrast with the mainstream shortermism that led to subprimes that precipitated today’s global financial crisis. In that light, CPB has been, on the whole, practicing what HMK preached (with the exceptions raised by the Forbes article with recent high-end developments of course).
There also seem to be a lot of laughing and sneering to do these days – even The Economist seem to be chanting a new mantra (here through KAL’s cartoon):
Goodnesss gracious me! I couldn’t agree more with the denunciation of those cowardly anonymous bloggers. Let them rot in hell. Their comments are not to be trusted. I would like to pass a motion on New Mandala to ensure that no nommes-de-blog be accepted in future. Let us have real names like Bangkok Pundit, Nganadeeleg, & my own, to ensure absorute cledibinity & tlustwortiness, and a high level of academic debate. I, for one, will not be cowed into submission by threats of LM, visa denial and snubbing by my fascist colleagues.
This event looks like an American-style stadium political rally to ‘activate the base’ – the main line from the Master, with his back to the wall (hence at his most dangerours), will most likely be “my people, I have been bullied by the ‘elites’ and I am innocent of all accusations”…
And it is very dangerous times indeed with seemingly coordinated bombing of PAD guards and a Constitution Court judges house the past Wednesday (hope to get reports from the ground from Nick Nostitz soon – is it PPP/DAAD? Or another ‘self-inflicted’ attack (the judge, PAD bombing themselves) as the police once hypothesized on the 7th Oct? Or a “Third Hand”…) … Thairath political commentators, who usually has the pulse of Thai socio-politics, seem to be pointing to inevitable street civil war between the Reds and Yellows.
This will bring the security forces on to the street to prevent clashes – or to provoke clashes (assuming the “Third Hand” theory also active here). Inevitably this could force the hands of the military to intervene – but, if that is the case, I suspect another evolution of the Thai military coup, which is already rather unique (for some commentators a “soft coup” was already performed on TV). The short term solution would be house dissolution or “government of national unity” engineered by the military.
But the long term will not bode well, as Chang Noi has written, this is mainly about PMThaksin (wanting the frozen assets back – or also formal power?) Vs PAD/those who hate/distrust him to the bone, a conflict that will define Thai politics for many years to come. I suspect they’ll be no winners here – while Thaksin’s actions, whether direct or through his multiple-proxies, is only cementing him as the most divisive figure in Thai history (and hence decreasing his chance of a return to the country in any capacity) while the PAD, distorted/consumed/poisoned by extreme hate/distrust, may take more actions that do more harm than good. This is not about ‘democracy’ or ideology.
And here, the PAD are fighting a losing war against PMThaksin and what he represents ‘politics as business’. At the end of the day, PMThaksin is synonymous with Big Business that has invested heavily in Thai politics and feels entitled to profits, regardless of its impacts on society (or the environment). Democracy, the rule of law, accountability etc. are all twisted, through highly sophisticate media manipulation/control (international-local), to serve that ‘single bottom-line’ end.
In this civil war, PMThaksin’s local proxies, PPP/DAAD, and Democrats/PAD may end up burning the house (Thailand) down. They forget that PMThaksin is no longer in it… He IS a ‘global elite’ that complains that the ‘local elite’ has bullied him as he would complain that his Rolls-Royce’s window is smashed by some vandals…
@Softfarang – “I have no sympathy for the protest organisers, unfortunately i believe that the majority of protesters are either being paid or have been badly manipulated.”
This I know to be a falsehood – there are many, many protestors who are there simply because they are tired of the constant cycle of money politics. My brother in law is one of them. No one has paid him and he has not been badly manipulated – he is simply fed up with the same excuses being made by prime ministers only interested in filling their pockets and abusing their power.
No 73 ‘s Comment about Saneh Chamarik, chairman of the Commission’s advocation of the coup does not have anything to do much with a dozen of the whole subcommittee 1 who made this official report.
PM Somchai joined ex-PM Samak the advocates of Thammasat Massacre Oct 6, 1976, who later became the Minister of Interior of a junta government.
Moreover, PM Somchai’s cabinet has one of the member of the military coup, i.e, Pol. Gen. Kowit Watana as the Minister of Interior who directly look after the Police and dispersal of the rally on Oct 7.
Still I have doubts on how much really Nick understand Thai language. Would it be enough to make him understand as much as he claimed what the police had warned?
OR what Nick heard was just the police’s announcement to call for the readiness for the police rows to get ready to fire
Was Nick present to testify of his hearing of the Police warning in any interview in the NHRC subcommitee?
Connors arguments on name changes, anonymous blogging and so on carry little weight in my view – he cites the WSJ, but at the Economist even their writers and reporters are not named. Has that brought the standards down? Who cares? It is the quality of comment that carries weight and a leveling of status in commentary is, I think, a great thing. The name means nothing, the commentary is what’s important. So we don’t have to worry if the author is a friend or a PhD, but we concentrate on the substance of their comments. In that spirit, I am changing one of my blogging names (and getting the spelling right, apparently).
This appears to be a part of the attempts to stitch back together the now torn image of the monarchy and palace. Others will say it is to manage succession. But, unless I have missed something, the crown prince hasn’t done much that we know about that has contributed to the current state of disarray in the palace. Prem and Surayud (just promoted to No. 3 in the Privy Council, just behind the horrid rightist Thanin Kraivichien) did most of that.
To use another metaphor, can all of the kings horses and all of the kings men put Humpty back together again? Probably not. PAD helped on this matter quite a lot and some in the palace must be feeling that their earlier bets and wins on PAD have created a monster they can’t control.
Jae, maybe it’s a subjective pursuit for you, but these days Thai subjects can hardly be labeled citizens with any substance. How can you provide evidence for the amount of people who are subjectively moved spiritually by ‘sufficiency’ versus those objectively defining their livelihoods by it? The convergence of spiritual aspects of being sufficient and the restrictions that this particular brand of sufficiency makes on political and economic development is tantamount to the worship of a python suffocating babies. You subscribe to the relativist blackmail that you have slandered in the review of Thailand: Beyond the Fringe.
I think it is the tendency of some ‘Western’/hypercritical minds (isnt that what ‘Western’ academics get paid for?!) to take these things too literally. It’s similar to the idea that ‘if we all became Buddhists, the world would come to an end’.
There are good things in Sufficiency Economy – it’s the ‘teachings’ that count, everyone has their flaws, it’s a matter of ‘doing what you can do’. It’s up to the individual to ‘put it into practice’. But ‘oh it’s all so flawed!!!’ I hear many say … from an objective standpoint, yes there are many. Sufficiency Economy, as with more ‘religious’ practice, is more of a subjective pursuit.
‘For far too long Westerners have succumbed to a form of ‘relativist blackmail’ in which people voluntarily renounce their critical faculties to embrace and collude with the oppression and prejudice of local cultures and traditions without demanding a global transformative ethic of ‘egalitarian-liberty’.’
This sums up the attitude of many, many-a expat attempting to ‘ride it out in the LOS’.
Quite sad. Many will come right back with a ‘you don’t understand Thai culture’, etc, etc, etc. They have no idea …
I think the issue of succession could be really traumatic any time it occurs and would be very unsettling now while the PAD and other enti-democratic forces are already active
also it will be really sad for the large numbers of Thai that really revere the current King and the Princess if something bad happens to destroy their vision
and, even ignoring the feelings, etc of the Royal Family, I think that the best form of participatory democracy occurs when there is a powerless monarch as head of state, as in the UK, Australia, because the parliament and government composed solely of elected people have all the authority, given directly by the people
republics, especially if the president is elected seem to me to usually have too much power residing in unelected people around and feeding off the authority of the president which reduces the authority of the parliament, eg USA, etc
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What happened on 7/10/2008?
ANS no. 77
-Was Nick present to testify of his hearing of the Police warning in any interview in the NHRC subcommitee?
No, Nick, so far, did not present himself at
NHRC for the testismony. I wish he would, though.
“Speech by a special guest”
I have just arrived home from a very peaceful but inspiring rally at
Rajamangala Stadium
I did a careful estimate of the number of people that attended…
in the stands there were between 60,000 to 70,000 people
(I understand the total seating in the stands is supposed to be 80,000,
the sections at te northern end were not much populated because they
were behind the stage area and the audio was too echoing there)… I
will go with 60,000
plus, the track and sports field area was pretty much covered with
sitting people, the front third of the ground was densely populated with
people on chairs, the rear third less so with people seated on plastic
and boards… more difficult to count, but its a big area
I believe the ground area contained at least the same number as the
stands… therefore between 120,000 to 140,000 people
a massive crowd of happy enthusiastic people, lots of conversations
between strangers, clapping, standing and happy smiles to each other
during the speeches
its obvious democracy and the policies of the Thaksin led government are
very popular
the crowd responded enthusiastically to calls to confront the tanks if
the military try to stage a coup!
by the way… I saw a report somewhere that people were nearly tearful in sympathy for Thaksin… but my observation is they just want him back here to help them save Thailsnd from the PAD and the tanks
What happened on 7/10/2008?
BkkOptimist
hmmm not paid but badly manipulated…..
protesting to reduce corrupt politcs doesnt make sense because
if the PAD wins corruption will be worse… like it was after the coup
and the CNS people and their backers including academics got rich, without doing anything useful for the country except try to close it all down…..
Thaksin makes money by being a smart and lucky businessman… the
military and traditional rich make money from corruption like illegal
titles to property in a national park, lottery rake off, drugs, logging
and the other things that Thaksin cut down on… which is why they hate him so much…
Transparency International noted that public corruption was less
under the Thaksin democratic governments than previous
intrinsically, democratically elected governments have to be less corrupt than nominated governments…
democratically elected governments are accountable to the people
who are nominated governments accountable to?
check corruption in the CNS and governments previous to the 1997
constitution… as they say, “where are the receipts”.. there arent any
because deals are done on the golf course so Sondhi and his mates can
conveniently ignore them
I think your relatives and friends think they can be more free to run their businesses any way they wish under the traditional governments so maybe they have their personal reasons for wanting a return to the previous inequitable rule…. we can respect this… it will influence their vote… but they must also respect the majority of Thais who want to move forward to better opportunity and equity for all!
“Speech by a special guest”
I’m not sure if the policy about high-quality posting still stands. The previous contributor (mungo Gubbins) should expand a bit further what is the relevance between a sarcastic remark on Thaksin’s wealth and the implications of his speech at this rally.
I think Thaksin did a good job in presenting himself in a rational and sympathetic manner, especially when compared to the language and reasoning used by the PAD leaders. It is understandable also that he couldn’t say much as many groups, including the judges and the military, were breathing down his neck. The threat of another of jail time if he spoke badly of the justice system (as reported by the BKK Post) was very telling. I didn’t get the opportunity to listen to the whole speech but as much as I heard, I agree with him in many points, particularly the much needed attention to prepare ourselves against the looming global financial crisis, the ruin of Thai democracy, and the double standards being applied in today’s politics. I am glad that the rally was carried out and ended peacefully. I would say that it has served its purpose well, particularly by giving the opportunity for people who were frustrated of the PAD’s political discourse to show their numbers and for Thaksin to show his oppositions that he is still very much in the picture.
“Speech by a special guest”
It was reassuring to hear from Thaksin that he’d made enough money from the sale of Man City FC to support his family. We wouldn’t want the poor little darlings to go hungry would we?
Sufficiency economy gurus
Colum, thanks for your words of wisdom. I think. But I amconfused about “the worship of a python suffocating babies.” I never see this. I live on a farm. Where you see this?
You say “these days Thai subjects can hardly be labeled citizens with any substance”
Why you talk like this? Why you angry with Thai people. You angry with me too. I feel. Is this true?
What happened on 7/10/2008?
BkkOptimist you are right. Many of my mother in law’s friends have spent a lot of time at Government House in support of the PAD. They are ordinary middle class Thai Chinese house wives and small business owners. They are self sufficient financially and have absolutely no interest in being paid in a few hundred baht a day for their support. They are just sick to death of self serving politicians getting away with anything from murder to corruption and stealing their tax money.
Sufficiency economy gurus
Thanks Lleij Samuel Schwartz #6 for pointing that out. I argue that Crown Property Bureau’s very long term approach to real estate is in stark contrast with the mainstream shortermism that led to subprimes that precipitated today’s global financial crisis. In that light, CPB has been, on the whole, practicing what HMK preached (with the exceptions raised by the Forbes article with recent high-end developments of course).
There also seem to be a lot of laughing and sneering to do these days – even The Economist seem to be chanting a new mantra (here through KAL’s cartoon):
http://www.economist.com/daily/kallery/displayStory.cfm?story_id=12532624&source=features_box4
More from a parliamentary cretin
Goodnesss gracious me! I couldn’t agree more with the denunciation of those cowardly anonymous bloggers. Let them rot in hell. Their comments are not to be trusted. I would like to pass a motion on New Mandala to ensure that no nommes-de-blog be accepted in future. Let us have real names like Bangkok Pundit, Nganadeeleg, & my own, to ensure absorute cledibinity & tlustwortiness, and a high level of academic debate. I, for one, will not be cowed into submission by threats of LM, visa denial and snubbing by my fascist colleagues.
“Speech by a special guest”
This event looks like an American-style stadium political rally to ‘activate the base’ – the main line from the Master, with his back to the wall (hence at his most dangerours), will most likely be “my people, I have been bullied by the ‘elites’ and I am innocent of all accusations”…
And it is very dangerous times indeed with seemingly coordinated bombing of PAD guards and a Constitution Court judges house the past Wednesday (hope to get reports from the ground from Nick Nostitz soon – is it PPP/DAAD? Or another ‘self-inflicted’ attack (the judge, PAD bombing themselves) as the police once hypothesized on the 7th Oct? Or a “Third Hand”…) … Thairath political commentators, who usually has the pulse of Thai socio-politics, seem to be pointing to inevitable street civil war between the Reds and Yellows.
This will bring the security forces on to the street to prevent clashes – or to provoke clashes (assuming the “Third Hand” theory also active here). Inevitably this could force the hands of the military to intervene – but, if that is the case, I suspect another evolution of the Thai military coup, which is already rather unique (for some commentators a “soft coup” was already performed on TV). The short term solution would be house dissolution or “government of national unity” engineered by the military.
But the long term will not bode well, as Chang Noi has written, this is mainly about PMThaksin (wanting the frozen assets back – or also formal power?) Vs PAD/those who hate/distrust him to the bone, a conflict that will define Thai politics for many years to come. I suspect they’ll be no winners here – while Thaksin’s actions, whether direct or through his multiple-proxies, is only cementing him as the most divisive figure in Thai history (and hence decreasing his chance of a return to the country in any capacity) while the PAD, distorted/consumed/poisoned by extreme hate/distrust, may take more actions that do more harm than good. This is not about ‘democracy’ or ideology.
And here, the PAD are fighting a losing war against PMThaksin and what he represents ‘politics as business’. At the end of the day, PMThaksin is synonymous with Big Business that has invested heavily in Thai politics and feels entitled to profits, regardless of its impacts on society (or the environment). Democracy, the rule of law, accountability etc. are all twisted, through highly sophisticate media manipulation/control (international-local), to serve that ‘single bottom-line’ end.
In this civil war, PMThaksin’s local proxies, PPP/DAAD, and Democrats/PAD may end up burning the house (Thailand) down. They forget that PMThaksin is no longer in it… He IS a ‘global elite’ that complains that the ‘local elite’ has bullied him as he would complain that his Rolls-Royce’s window is smashed by some vandals…
What happened on 7/10/2008?
@Softfarang – “I have no sympathy for the protest organisers, unfortunately i believe that the majority of protesters are either being paid or have been badly manipulated.”
This I know to be a falsehood – there are many, many protestors who are there simply because they are tired of the constant cycle of money politics. My brother in law is one of them. No one has paid him and he has not been badly manipulated – he is simply fed up with the same excuses being made by prime ministers only interested in filling their pockets and abusing their power.
What happened on 7/10/2008?
No 73 ‘s Comment about Saneh Chamarik, chairman of the Commission’s advocation of the coup does not have anything to do much with a dozen of the whole subcommittee 1 who made this official report.
PM Somchai joined ex-PM Samak the advocates of Thammasat Massacre Oct 6, 1976, who later became the Minister of Interior of a junta government.
Moreover, PM Somchai’s cabinet has one of the member of the military coup, i.e, Pol. Gen. Kowit Watana as the Minister of Interior who directly look after the Police and dispersal of the rally on Oct 7.
Still I have doubts on how much really Nick understand Thai language. Would it be enough to make him understand as much as he claimed what the police had warned?
OR what Nick heard was just the police’s announcement to call for the readiness for the police rows to get ready to fire
Was Nick present to testify of his hearing of the Police warning in any interview in the NHRC subcommitee?
More from a parliamentary cretin
Connors arguments on name changes, anonymous blogging and so on carry little weight in my view – he cites the WSJ, but at the Economist even their writers and reporters are not named. Has that brought the standards down? Who cares? It is the quality of comment that carries weight and a leveling of status in commentary is, I think, a great thing. The name means nothing, the commentary is what’s important. So we don’t have to worry if the author is a friend or a PhD, but we concentrate on the substance of their comments. In that spirit, I am changing one of my blogging names (and getting the spelling right, apparently).
The Great Wall of Chitralada
This appears to be a part of the attempts to stitch back together the now torn image of the monarchy and palace. Others will say it is to manage succession. But, unless I have missed something, the crown prince hasn’t done much that we know about that has contributed to the current state of disarray in the palace. Prem and Surayud (just promoted to No. 3 in the Privy Council, just behind the horrid rightist Thanin Kraivichien) did most of that.
To use another metaphor, can all of the kings horses and all of the kings men put Humpty back together again? Probably not. PAD helped on this matter quite a lot and some in the palace must be feeling that their earlier bets and wins on PAD have created a monster they can’t control.
Sufficiency economy gurus
Jae, maybe it’s a subjective pursuit for you, but these days Thai subjects can hardly be labeled citizens with any substance. How can you provide evidence for the amount of people who are subjectively moved spiritually by ‘sufficiency’ versus those objectively defining their livelihoods by it? The convergence of spiritual aspects of being sufficient and the restrictions that this particular brand of sufficiency makes on political and economic development is tantamount to the worship of a python suffocating babies. You subscribe to the relativist blackmail that you have slandered in the review of Thailand: Beyond the Fringe.
The Great Wall of Chitralada
Less Majeste, more Humanité!
Sufficiency economy gurus
I think it is the tendency of some ‘Western’/hypercritical minds (isnt that what ‘Western’ academics get paid for?!) to take these things too literally. It’s similar to the idea that ‘if we all became Buddhists, the world would come to an end’.
There are good things in Sufficiency Economy – it’s the ‘teachings’ that count, everyone has their flaws, it’s a matter of ‘doing what you can do’. It’s up to the individual to ‘put it into practice’. But ‘oh it’s all so flawed!!!’ I hear many say … from an objective standpoint, yes there are many. Sufficiency Economy, as with more ‘religious’ practice, is more of a subjective pursuit.
Unreliable histories
[…] I indicated in the first post, for the time being I am focussing on Baan Tiam’s history, and the various ways in which […]
Review of Thailand Beyond The Fringe by Robert Cooper
‘For far too long Westerners have succumbed to a form of ‘relativist blackmail’ in which people voluntarily renounce their critical faculties to embrace and collude with the oppression and prejudice of local cultures and traditions without demanding a global transformative ethic of ‘egalitarian-liberty’.’
This sums up the attitude of many, many-a expat attempting to ‘ride it out in the LOS’.
Quite sad. Many will come right back with a ‘you don’t understand Thai culture’, etc, etc, etc. They have no idea …
Putting the genie back in the bottle
I think the issue of succession could be really traumatic any time it occurs and would be very unsettling now while the PAD and other enti-democratic forces are already active
also it will be really sad for the large numbers of Thai that really revere the current King and the Princess if something bad happens to destroy their vision
and, even ignoring the feelings, etc of the Royal Family, I think that the best form of participatory democracy occurs when there is a powerless monarch as head of state, as in the UK, Australia, because the parliament and government composed solely of elected people have all the authority, given directly by the people
republics, especially if the president is elected seem to me to usually have too much power residing in unelected people around and feeding off the authority of the president which reduces the authority of the parliament, eg USA, etc