Check the Arunachal Pradesh(India) part of the road in Chao’s blog http://www.travelblog.org/Asia/India/Arunachal-Pradesh/Pangsau-Pass/blog-167991.html
[Btw dont count on what you see in that blog to be operational when you show up. Its the highway for Naga and Assam militants and can be off limits depending on the security situation – like in the NG article].
Hla Oo’ s updates are important. It means no 4×4 SUVs on the ‘road’ if you call it that, after Pangsau village[maybe a few kms]?.
Now the question is where does a motorable(at least seasonal) start down the trail? Hla Oo, you mentioned Myitkyina being unsafe for foreigners, unsafe from whom – am confused.
I’ve done ground checks of official forest maps in only a few areas (Phetchabun, Phitsanulok, Loei, Lampang, Khorat). If some NM readers have evidence (with GPS points, pictures and hopefully interviews) of recent deforestation/reforestation/stable forests in other regions of Thailand, I’d be willing to share some of my material in order to construct a larger database. A more accurate image of recent forest changes could thus be obtained.
I forgot to mention in the text that my dissertation research is part (and financed) by ChATSEA (The Challenges of the Agrarian Transition in Southeast Asia).
Kaimook…What’s your problem with people supporting Kwanchai Paipanna when the Sonthi and Chamlong crowd, who according to you aren’t in jail, but “should be”, aren’t? Have you ever been oppressed? Have you ever had to fight for your freedom? The people I know aren’t worshiping those guys without question but in fact have plenty of questions but are grasping for any chance for self-determination (while holding their noses), since the Paipanna’s of the world are there only options. What would you do? Write a blog post and wait for someone else to do what needs to get done?
And since PAD started the violence what’s your problem with others responding in kind? Yeah, violence is terrible. What would you do if someone swings a golf club at your head, occupies the seat of government, literally craps all over it, and says your vote only counts at 30%? Tuck your tail and say “yes boss” or fight for justice and freedom? I think I can guess your answer.
Regarding Chuwit and your threat to leave Bangkok if he’s elected, you have shown your true nature as a weasel. In my country, every four years, the usual Hollywood liberals vow to leave America if a conservative President is elected. Every time I hope they follow through, but they don’t, because they’re weasels. And somehow I know you won’t move out either. I bet there’s a few folks up in Buriram who’d love to connect with you.
Sorry if this comes across as impolite, but I’m rather fed up and sick of how impolite the Thai elites are towards my “un-elite” Thai friends and the vast majority of the people of this country. Frankly, Sondi’s and the “invisible hand’s” 30-70 idea is beyond impolite.
matty: Isn’t vote-buying illegal in Thailand? I don’t follow the point. Taylor was explaining a market model of votebuying, which is not uncommon in the literature, including for countries where vote-buying is illegal (and including Thailand).
jonfernquest: you cite anthropologists as a problem on vote-buying. Chang Noi must be an anthropologist. Somchai (in JCA special issue) must be an anthropologist.
I happen to agree with the “anthropologists”, but if you disagree, rather than name-calling (as the term “only anthropologists” is used), wouldn’t it make more sense to call on research about vote buying that is comparative? To help you along on this serious subject, try Schaffer and Schedler (http://www.stanford.edu/~albertod/docs/Bellagio_Schaffer_Schedler.pdf):
From their abstract: “Many scholars view vote buying as a simple economic transaction: parties and candidates distribute material benefits to individual citizens in exchange for support at the ballot box. Drawing upon a variety of comparative experiences, this paper argues, however, that the commercial aspirations of vote buyers often run into objective as well as intersubjective barriers. On the objective side, seller compliance is uncertain as vote buying does not take place within a “normal” market protected by social and legal norms. On the intersubjective side, electoral practices that outside observers describe as “vote buying” may carry very different meanings in different cultural contexts. To assess empirical claims as well as normative judgments about vote buying, the paper concludes, we need to be aware of the potential gap between our idealized, commercial model of vote buying and the way it actually works in the world.”
Also: Nichter, Simeon. 2008. Vote Buying or Turnout Buying? Machine Politics and the Secret Ballot, American Political Science Review 102 (February): 19-31 and Hasen, Vote Buying, California Law Review, Vol. 88, October 2000.
On Argentina: Brusco, Nazareno and Stokes, Vote Buying in Argentina, Latin American Research Review – Volume 39, Number 2, 2004, pp. 66-88.
This literature can, of course, be sifted for conclusions that support any number of current political positions, but it is a literature (dominated by political scientists) that considers the market model seriously. There’s also a bunch of game-theoretic stuff on vote-buying, if you want a truly mind-numbing experience.
Yes Jon, it is easier to break things, which is why guys like Sharp, whose examples aren’t exclusively American ones, are going to be needed to fix all the problems caused by the Burmese military’s breaking of the social, political, economic and environmental structures in Burma. And speaking of one size fits all, what is one to make of the regime’s attempts to make the ethnic minorities conform to the standards of the Burmans.
Talking about making changes…
A few years ago, a long time ago, in fact,
(972-73) I was teaching at NIDA in Bangkok, and one of my favorite activities was criticizing the then Thai government. A colleague I shared an office with would from time to time mention, “My father-in-law is doing all he can about fighting corruption.” It finally got to me and I said, “Listen, you tell me this all the time. But just who is your father-in-law anyhow?”
My friend wrote down on a piece of paper, “”PM.”
I was slow!
“Who?” I asked.
“Prime Minister.”
Whoa! Did I lay an egg! My friend was Dr. Suvit Yodmani, who had married Thanom Kittikajorn’s youngest daughter. That was my lesson in not just personal ignorance, but also in seeing that the guys at the top themselves sometimes think they are doing the right thing – even when they are not. The next year we had already taken off for my new job in Iran, and Thanom and the other two dictators were ousted.
High regard et. al…
I would venture to say that most of it is high regard, but not out of any purely metaphysical origin. More impregnated and orchestrated, although some arising from observation of the many positive contributions made to society.
That taboos are far and wide on discussing role, possible faulty acts, or succession and so on is a clear reflection on this country’s basic ruling elite coalition, none of whose membership wants to lose privileges or be responsible to public agencies.
That a senior PC member was taken out of the PC made PM and then brought back into the PC clearly indicates highest levels of inside involvement in 19 September 2006. There was a top-level power struggle going on, which by the way, is not over. That Thaksin’s brother-in-law is in at the moment says mountains about what’s in store unless things are forced to change. Thus the PAD and hopefully students, state enterprise unions and others need to get involved, and all of these need to stop kidding themselves and us about how deeply committed to HMK they are, or say they are. Using such a high element to coalesce favorable opinion is working in the short term but will have socially damaging effects later on, I fear.
Enough of tongue-in-cheek!
Obviously some observations are overly simplistic and not intended to provide an all-encompassing picture of what’s what and what’s not what.
Also keep in mind that a PAD supporter seems to have been responsible for the single death that occurred in Bangkok. So violence is not solely of the red or yellow.
Not to appear ignorant, but Juane?… who dat?
Easier to break things (like Iraq) than put them back together (like Thailand), though easier to be a hero breaking things (like Che Guevara), then you can run away to another revolution in Bolivia and teenagers will wear your cool photo on their t-shirt.
(Sounds like that notorious cold war guy who traveled around Asia writing propaganda books and making movies or Graham Greene’s Quiet American though nowadays this sort of thing makes you a fashionable rebel that even the Wall Street Journal likes).
Frank, why are those people easily incited, prone to violence and neglect the bigger issues of human rights and free speech ? I don’t necessarily believe that all the people actively supporting PPP in red are any one thing or another — but an opposition to the Thai Juane must be more reasonable than no opposition at all. I see no equally over the top opposition as leaving the gate open for Sondhi Limthongkil and co to continue driving ridiculous messages into the Thai public sphere… and who knows, maybe the Juane would start calling for some insidious rural reforms…?!
Although an equally visible opposition could lead to further social division, at least there is an alternative. I feel that is much more assuring for the future. What do you think? Am I supporting the ingredients for a civil war? Haha… :S
Hate to burst your bubble, friend.
Those people in red are hardly of multi-interest background. Like ultra-PAD groups, they are easily incited, prone to violence and neglect the bigger issues of human rights and free speech.
Matty: ‘What was the point of this sentence and what depth of inanity have you now descended yourself into Jim Taylor?”
Exactly, that vote-buying is good seems to be counter-intuitive to everyone except anthropologists, perhaps working under a “weapons of the weak” assumption.
None of the local power bosses or their canvassers behind the vote-buying has enough knowledge or foresight to build a canal to bring much needed water to a village only three kilometers away from it (example from shadow finance minister Korn in weekly Bangkok Post column).
Buy votes, then reap the awards from political power, and share it with your cronies who cooperated, e.g. children of canvassers get to go to special schools (dek fak), or get the lottery scholarships, none of which is written up in a local newspaper (or even education sections of national newspapers with section editors to eager to endear themselves to the MOE) so that villagers can actually understand what is going on. Good point, Matty.
Jim Taylor may I remind you, before you bloviate more on your inane conviction about vote-buying, that buying and selling of votes is illegal (unconstitutional, got it?) in Thailand, and illegal in USA, and illegal in Europe and in . . . . . . . . must I go on?
Clearly, those Thais in rouge are unreasonable! The yellow revolutionaries are simply showing their loyalty to the King to combat the scourge of exploitative, uncouth criminals and chefs elected to parliament.
In the future, maybe a fitting way to refer to the PAD will be to say the Thai Jaune?
Matty thanks for the credits: it makes sense as “consumers” voters can choose. If you have all parties offering to buy votes then logically you would still go for the person/party that serves you best? Got it?? And that is what happens. Spend some time in the villages next election (if there is a next free election)
A positive sign: the Emergency Decree was lifted an hour and a half ago.
Really good reporting, Nick: balanced, fair, based on the evidence of observation and interviews. Everything you say concurs with discussions I’ve had with my Thai friends, from ordinary working-class people (many of whom are from rural families – ‘reds’), to academics and senior civil servants (almost all PAD).
As you say, the PAD are inflexible. On the other hand, I’ve noticed that the reds do seem to be changing – not that they’re becoming pro-PAD, but they seem to be more willing to engage in self-reflection (they DO quite openly admit that they have been manipulated by local politicians and ‘godfathers’, and that it will have to stop, eventually ) and analysis of social problems (Is this because they finally see a tiny glimmer of light at the end of the tunnel?). On the other hand, the PAD are typically rigid, dogmatic and blinkered. And I also get the impression that PAD have absolutely no willingness to look at the plight of the rural people, let alone compassion for them, or concern for the short- and long-term damage that the prolonged PAD demonstration may be doing to Thailand.
I especially like your final paragraph. Let’s hope the current situation doesn’t lead to further coups, violence, etc. A revolution would probably lead to the same result as a military coup: dictatorship. Whereas a slow and steady (well, probably fairly rocky) movement of mass-participation in social change will eventually lead to the freedom that all (except the greedy) want.
This is something new? What a field-day for a Trotsky-ite on training wheels. How fun! Let’s try to break up the state one more time. Ready, get set, go:
“Thus we find that during the parliamentary period, MPs from Isan were always the most critical of the government, and on many occasions they banded together to demand development funds for their region. We have also seen that of all the regional politicians, leaders from Isan were the most militant and dedicated to the well-being of their constituencies. Thus challenges to “political stability” and “national unity” usually came from Isan.” (Thak Chaloemtiarana (2007) Thailand the politics of despotic paternalism, Cornell Southeast Asian program, page 130)
“This is shows a problem with Thailand, people contiunue to worship criminals like these without question.”
I don’t think that this is entirely right. Indeed, this is very much part of Thailand’s problems. Yet, you will find many voices in the “Reds” that are very critical of the involvement of people like Sae Daeng, and others.
Sometimes it is better to accept Thailand with all its problems, and learn how to go from there, than only having a picture in mind how Thailand should be, and forgetting the now existing Thailand with all its complex problems.
It is a long way to a more egalitarian society – it can’t just be ordered from top down, excluding the disenfranchised sectors of society, it has to develop with the participation of those.
I do accept the existence of these powerful figures, the problems they cause, but also that in this society of patronage they also do fulfill an important social function.
They may be “Mafia”, but the “clean” system of civil service and judiciary follows a similar pattern of patronage of which the small man is generally excluded from, and in need of help has to resort to the system of patronage offered by these “shady” figures, of which he has access to.
What interests me personally most though is the rising political awareness of the small man. Because that is what one day will gradually change the system of patronage, and not screaming by the privileged for “moral” politicians or appointees that represent the system of patronage maybe even more than one or the other industrious godfather.
Anyhow, googling about Surathin, i found following fascinating post in some web board about him, and i hope that i get a chance to ask him in person one day about this, because i am very intrigued(maybe someone here has some more information):
THAI MP FROM UDON THANI JAILED IN PHONTHONG PRISON
Police Lt Colonel Suratin Pimanmekin, former MP Udon Thani (Thailand) was jailed nine years by a Lao court on October 19 2000. The Lao court claims he pleaded guilty to the charge of spying and as their story goes, they also say he was found digging for precious minerals without a license when they arrested him March 28 2000 at a hut behind Vat Tai Airport in Vientiane. The Lao authorities claim to have confiscated two ore detectors, a survey cope and a diary.
Before the Lao court delivered their sentence, the Thai embassy had asked to have a lawyer present, but the judge rejected the request and said it was too short notice. That sounds fair doesn’t it?
I met Suratin Pimanmekin when I was arrested and sent to Phonthong Prison in Vientiane Lao PDR. His cell was next to mine where he shared with five others and he gave me food when I had none. He collected wild lilies from the fish pond inside the Prison grounds and placed them at what we called the Buddha Tree, centre-most in the prison.
As the months went by, we became good friends and I called him ‘Pa’ (Father) while he called me “Look” (daughter) and together we gave each other hope that someday we would go home.
The one thing that matters most in Phonthong Prison is that you survive and without the help of friends, you may not live to see your freedom day. As a former Thai Policeman and an influential one at that, I doubt ‘Pa’ would have been charged with anything less than what he got and surprised he wasn’t charged with more.
I remember Suratin Pimanmekin or as I call him “Pa” and how he always had a piece of food to share even if it was his last. He took care of the ‘Pi Ba’ (crazy people) and taught me to look beyond what I think I see, as what matters, often are the things we see when we look more deeply.
I hope the Thai government will think kindly of ‘Pa’ and not forget him as I remember him daily. I know he will still be helping others in Phonthong Prison to survive. Chok dee Pa.
Kay Danes
Former Political Prisoner (Laos)
Source: Vientiane Times (at Readers Email Section)
“Are the honest, ethical politicians staying out of politics since don’t want to get hands dirty?”
The honest, ethical what?! What a lovely planet they must live on.
Power is power is power and what is the point of being a governor if you cannot take photographs with hot girlies?
I think it is time that we all realised that these idealised middle class ideas of democracy coming out of Bangkok can only work under truly revolutionary circumstances:
I propose to the elites in Bangkok that the city split off from the rest of Thailand and become the “Thirty-percent Democratic Kingdom of Krungthep” banishing everyone who doesn’t conform (remarketing itself as a Singaporean-like trade hub) and then allowing Isan and parts of the north to be forcibly reunited with Laos (they certainly shouldn’t be able to vote about it) and similarly the other smaller regions could be left to ferment or any Suranaree-like revolts be pacified by the larger established states.
We need to acknowledge that the only places where democratic ideals do actually translate into practice are resource rich countries where living conditions are relatively homogenous and where ideas about political philosophy have not been tied to one silly idea about who has the final absolute word about what is right and wrong (as in opposed to resource rich countries where established elites have gained so much wealth and converted this wealth into so much power and influence that the very breath of alternative opinion is sucked out of the air before it can be uttered). For the ideas that the Bangkok middle class have about a puritanical democracy to work, Thailand would essentially have to take on Nordic characteristics – an abundance of resources that everyone wants to buy, a relatively ethnically homogenous (and small) population with a universal minimum living standard who are happy living through weird annual weather extremes and who have so little to do with their lives other than hunt whales and produce silly eighties pop songs that quibbling over free opinions has become an amusing past time.
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The Stilwell Road
Check the Arunachal Pradesh(India) part of the road in Chao’s blog
http://www.travelblog.org/Asia/India/Arunachal-Pradesh/Pangsau-Pass/blog-167991.html
[Btw dont count on what you see in that blog to be operational when you show up. Its the highway for Naga and Assam militants and can be off limits depending on the security situation – like in the NG article].
Hla Oo’ s updates are important. It means no 4×4 SUVs on the ‘road’ if you call it that, after Pangsau village[maybe a few kms]?.
Now the question is where does a motorable(at least seasonal) start down the trail? Hla Oo, you mentioned Myitkyina being unsafe for foreigners, unsafe from whom – am confused.
Re-examining our assumptions – have forest areas expanded in Thailand?
I’ve done ground checks of official forest maps in only a few areas (Phetchabun, Phitsanulok, Loei, Lampang, Khorat). If some NM readers have evidence (with GPS points, pictures and hopefully interviews) of recent deforestation/reforestation/stable forests in other regions of Thailand, I’d be willing to share some of my material in order to construct a larger database. A more accurate image of recent forest changes could thus be obtained.
I forgot to mention in the text that my dissertation research is part (and financed) by ChATSEA (The Challenges of the Agrarian Transition in Southeast Asia).
Beyond the stereotypes of Thailand’s “Reds”
Nick, nice reporting. Spot on.
Kaimook…What’s your problem with people supporting Kwanchai Paipanna when the Sonthi and Chamlong crowd, who according to you aren’t in jail, but “should be”, aren’t? Have you ever been oppressed? Have you ever had to fight for your freedom? The people I know aren’t worshiping those guys without question but in fact have plenty of questions but are grasping for any chance for self-determination (while holding their noses), since the Paipanna’s of the world are there only options. What would you do? Write a blog post and wait for someone else to do what needs to get done?
And since PAD started the violence what’s your problem with others responding in kind? Yeah, violence is terrible. What would you do if someone swings a golf club at your head, occupies the seat of government, literally craps all over it, and says your vote only counts at 30%? Tuck your tail and say “yes boss” or fight for justice and freedom? I think I can guess your answer.
Regarding Chuwit and your threat to leave Bangkok if he’s elected, you have shown your true nature as a weasel. In my country, every four years, the usual Hollywood liberals vow to leave America if a conservative President is elected. Every time I hope they follow through, but they don’t, because they’re weasels. And somehow I know you won’t move out either. I bet there’s a few folks up in Buriram who’d love to connect with you.
Sorry if this comes across as impolite, but I’m rather fed up and sick of how impolite the Thai elites are towards my “un-elite” Thai friends and the vast majority of the people of this country. Frankly, Sondi’s and the “invisible hand’s” 30-70 idea is beyond impolite.
Most Sincerely,
Fufu
Coup talk
matty: Isn’t vote-buying illegal in Thailand? I don’t follow the point. Taylor was explaining a market model of votebuying, which is not uncommon in the literature, including for countries where vote-buying is illegal (and including Thailand).
jonfernquest: you cite anthropologists as a problem on vote-buying. Chang Noi must be an anthropologist. Somchai (in JCA special issue) must be an anthropologist.
I happen to agree with the “anthropologists”, but if you disagree, rather than name-calling (as the term “only anthropologists” is used), wouldn’t it make more sense to call on research about vote buying that is comparative? To help you along on this serious subject, try Schaffer and Schedler (http://www.stanford.edu/~albertod/docs/Bellagio_Schaffer_Schedler.pdf):
From their abstract: “Many scholars view vote buying as a simple economic transaction: parties and candidates distribute material benefits to individual citizens in exchange for support at the ballot box. Drawing upon a variety of comparative experiences, this paper argues, however, that the commercial aspirations of vote buyers often run into objective as well as intersubjective barriers. On the objective side, seller compliance is uncertain as vote buying does not take place within a “normal” market protected by social and legal norms. On the intersubjective side, electoral practices that outside observers describe as “vote buying” may carry very different meanings in different cultural contexts. To assess empirical claims as well as normative judgments about vote buying, the paper concludes, we need to be aware of the potential gap between our idealized, commercial model of vote buying and the way it actually works in the world.”
Also: Nichter, Simeon. 2008. Vote Buying or Turnout Buying? Machine Politics and the Secret Ballot, American Political Science Review 102 (February): 19-31 and Hasen, Vote Buying, California Law Review, Vol. 88, October 2000.
On Africa see http://ipl.econ.duke.edu/bread/abstracts/161.htm
On Argentina: Brusco, Nazareno and Stokes, Vote Buying in Argentina, Latin American Research Review – Volume 39, Number 2, 2004, pp. 66-88.
This literature can, of course, be sifted for conclusions that support any number of current political positions, but it is a literature (dominated by political scientists) that considers the market model seriously. There’s also a bunch of game-theoretic stuff on vote-buying, if you want a truly mind-numbing experience.
“From Dictatorship to Democracy”, Burma and all the rest
Yes Jon, it is easier to break things, which is why guys like Sharp, whose examples aren’t exclusively American ones, are going to be needed to fix all the problems caused by the Burmese military’s breaking of the social, political, economic and environmental structures in Burma. And speaking of one size fits all, what is one to make of the regime’s attempts to make the ethnic minorities conform to the standards of the Burmans.
Beyond the stereotypes of Thailand’s “Reds”
Just one question to all: If the Reds demand ‘payment first’ before deed, why all the fuss about the ‘virtues’ of the Reds?
Six threats and one opportunity
Talking about making changes…
A few years ago, a long time ago, in fact,
(972-73) I was teaching at NIDA in Bangkok, and one of my favorite activities was criticizing the then Thai government. A colleague I shared an office with would from time to time mention, “My father-in-law is doing all he can about fighting corruption.” It finally got to me and I said, “Listen, you tell me this all the time. But just who is your father-in-law anyhow?”
My friend wrote down on a piece of paper, “”PM.”
I was slow!
“Who?” I asked.
“Prime Minister.”
Whoa! Did I lay an egg! My friend was Dr. Suvit Yodmani, who had married Thanom Kittikajorn’s youngest daughter. That was my lesson in not just personal ignorance, but also in seeing that the guys at the top themselves sometimes think they are doing the right thing – even when they are not. The next year we had already taken off for my new job in Iran, and Thanom and the other two dictators were ousted.
Six threats and one opportunity
High regard et. al…
I would venture to say that most of it is high regard, but not out of any purely metaphysical origin. More impregnated and orchestrated, although some arising from observation of the many positive contributions made to society.
That taboos are far and wide on discussing role, possible faulty acts, or succession and so on is a clear reflection on this country’s basic ruling elite coalition, none of whose membership wants to lose privileges or be responsible to public agencies.
That a senior PC member was taken out of the PC made PM and then brought back into the PC clearly indicates highest levels of inside involvement in 19 September 2006. There was a top-level power struggle going on, which by the way, is not over. That Thaksin’s brother-in-law is in at the moment says mountains about what’s in store unless things are forced to change. Thus the PAD and hopefully students, state enterprise unions and others need to get involved, and all of these need to stop kidding themselves and us about how deeply committed to HMK they are, or say they are. Using such a high element to coalesce favorable opinion is working in the short term but will have socially damaging effects later on, I fear.
From the archive: Ponchaud on the Khmer revolution
Enough of tongue-in-cheek!
Obviously some observations are overly simplistic and not intended to provide an all-encompassing picture of what’s what and what’s not what.
Also keep in mind that a PAD supporter seems to have been responsible for the single death that occurred in Bangkok. So violence is not solely of the red or yellow.
Not to appear ignorant, but Juane?… who dat?
“From Dictatorship to Democracy”, Burma and all the rest
One size fits all.
American size.
Easier to break things (like Iraq) than put them back together (like Thailand), though easier to be a hero breaking things (like Che Guevara), then you can run away to another revolution in Bolivia and teenagers will wear your cool photo on their t-shirt.
(Sounds like that notorious cold war guy who traveled around Asia writing propaganda books and making movies or Graham Greene’s Quiet American though nowadays this sort of thing makes you a fashionable rebel that even the Wall Street Journal likes).
From the archive: Ponchaud on the Khmer revolution
Frank, why are those people easily incited, prone to violence and neglect the bigger issues of human rights and free speech ? I don’t necessarily believe that all the people actively supporting PPP in red are any one thing or another — but an opposition to the Thai Juane must be more reasonable than no opposition at all. I see no equally over the top opposition as leaving the gate open for Sondhi Limthongkil and co to continue driving ridiculous messages into the Thai public sphere… and who knows, maybe the Juane would start calling for some insidious rural reforms…?!
Although an equally visible opposition could lead to further social division, at least there is an alternative. I feel that is much more assuring for the future. What do you think? Am I supporting the ingredients for a civil war? Haha… :S
From the archive: Ponchaud on the Khmer revolution
Hate to burst your bubble, friend.
Those people in red are hardly of multi-interest background. Like ultra-PAD groups, they are easily incited, prone to violence and neglect the bigger issues of human rights and free speech.
Coup talk
Matty: ‘What was the point of this sentence and what depth of inanity have you now descended yourself into Jim Taylor?”
Exactly, that vote-buying is good seems to be counter-intuitive to everyone except anthropologists, perhaps working under a “weapons of the weak” assumption.
None of the local power bosses or their canvassers behind the vote-buying has enough knowledge or foresight to build a canal to bring much needed water to a village only three kilometers away from it (example from shadow finance minister Korn in weekly Bangkok Post column).
Buy votes, then reap the awards from political power, and share it with your cronies who cooperated, e.g. children of canvassers get to go to special schools (dek fak), or get the lottery scholarships, none of which is written up in a local newspaper (or even education sections of national newspapers with section editors to eager to endear themselves to the MOE) so that villagers can actually understand what is going on. Good point, Matty.
Coup talk
Jim Taylor may I remind you, before you bloviate more on your inane conviction about vote-buying, that buying and selling of votes is illegal (unconstitutional, got it?) in Thailand, and illegal in USA, and illegal in Europe and in . . . . . . . . must I go on?
From the archive: Ponchaud on the Khmer revolution
Clearly, those Thais in rouge are unreasonable! The yellow revolutionaries are simply showing their loyalty to the King to combat the scourge of exploitative, uncouth criminals and chefs elected to parliament.
In the future, maybe a fitting way to refer to the PAD will be to say the Thai Jaune?
Coup talk
Matty thanks for the credits: it makes sense as “consumers” voters can choose. If you have all parties offering to buy votes then logically you would still go for the person/party that serves you best? Got it?? And that is what happens. Spend some time in the villages next election (if there is a next free election)
Beyond the stereotypes of Thailand’s “Reds”
A positive sign: the Emergency Decree was lifted an hour and a half ago.
Really good reporting, Nick: balanced, fair, based on the evidence of observation and interviews. Everything you say concurs with discussions I’ve had with my Thai friends, from ordinary working-class people (many of whom are from rural families – ‘reds’), to academics and senior civil servants (almost all PAD).
As you say, the PAD are inflexible. On the other hand, I’ve noticed that the reds do seem to be changing – not that they’re becoming pro-PAD, but they seem to be more willing to engage in self-reflection (they DO quite openly admit that they have been manipulated by local politicians and ‘godfathers’, and that it will have to stop, eventually ) and analysis of social problems (Is this because they finally see a tiny glimmer of light at the end of the tunnel?). On the other hand, the PAD are typically rigid, dogmatic and blinkered. And I also get the impression that PAD have absolutely no willingness to look at the plight of the rural people, let alone compassion for them, or concern for the short- and long-term damage that the prolonged PAD demonstration may be doing to Thailand.
I especially like your final paragraph. Let’s hope the current situation doesn’t lead to further coups, violence, etc. A revolution would probably lead to the same result as a military coup: dictatorship. Whereas a slow and steady (well, probably fairly rocky) movement of mass-participation in social change will eventually lead to the freedom that all (except the greedy) want.
Beyond the stereotypes of Thailand’s “Reds”
This is something new? What a field-day for a Trotsky-ite on training wheels. How fun! Let’s try to break up the state one more time. Ready, get set, go:
“Thus we find that during the parliamentary period, MPs from Isan were always the most critical of the government, and on many occasions they banded together to demand development funds for their region. We have also seen that of all the regional politicians, leaders from Isan were the most militant and dedicated to the well-being of their constituencies. Thus challenges to “political stability” and “national unity” usually came from Isan.” (Thak Chaloemtiarana (2007) Thailand the politics of despotic paternalism, Cornell Southeast Asian program, page 130)
Beyond the stereotypes of Thailand’s “Reds”
“Kaimook”:
you posted:
“This is shows a problem with Thailand, people contiunue to worship criminals like these without question.”
I don’t think that this is entirely right. Indeed, this is very much part of Thailand’s problems. Yet, you will find many voices in the “Reds” that are very critical of the involvement of people like Sae Daeng, and others.
Sometimes it is better to accept Thailand with all its problems, and learn how to go from there, than only having a picture in mind how Thailand should be, and forgetting the now existing Thailand with all its complex problems.
It is a long way to a more egalitarian society – it can’t just be ordered from top down, excluding the disenfranchised sectors of society, it has to develop with the participation of those.
I do accept the existence of these powerful figures, the problems they cause, but also that in this society of patronage they also do fulfill an important social function.
They may be “Mafia”, but the “clean” system of civil service and judiciary follows a similar pattern of patronage of which the small man is generally excluded from, and in need of help has to resort to the system of patronage offered by these “shady” figures, of which he has access to.
What interests me personally most though is the rising political awareness of the small man. Because that is what one day will gradually change the system of patronage, and not screaming by the privileged for “moral” politicians or appointees that represent the system of patronage maybe even more than one or the other industrious godfather.
Anyhow, googling about Surathin, i found following fascinating post in some web board about him, and i hope that i get a chance to ask him in person one day about this, because i am very intrigued(maybe someone here has some more information):
THAI MP FROM UDON THANI JAILED IN PHONTHONG PRISON
Police Lt Colonel Suratin Pimanmekin, former MP Udon Thani (Thailand) was jailed nine years by a Lao court on October 19 2000. The Lao court claims he pleaded guilty to the charge of spying and as their story goes, they also say he was found digging for precious minerals without a license when they arrested him March 28 2000 at a hut behind Vat Tai Airport in Vientiane. The Lao authorities claim to have confiscated two ore detectors, a survey cope and a diary.
Before the Lao court delivered their sentence, the Thai embassy had asked to have a lawyer present, but the judge rejected the request and said it was too short notice. That sounds fair doesn’t it?
I met Suratin Pimanmekin when I was arrested and sent to Phonthong Prison in Vientiane Lao PDR. His cell was next to mine where he shared with five others and he gave me food when I had none. He collected wild lilies from the fish pond inside the Prison grounds and placed them at what we called the Buddha Tree, centre-most in the prison.
As the months went by, we became good friends and I called him ‘Pa’ (Father) while he called me “Look” (daughter) and together we gave each other hope that someday we would go home.
The one thing that matters most in Phonthong Prison is that you survive and without the help of friends, you may not live to see your freedom day. As a former Thai Policeman and an influential one at that, I doubt ‘Pa’ would have been charged with anything less than what he got and surprised he wasn’t charged with more.
I remember Suratin Pimanmekin or as I call him “Pa” and how he always had a piece of food to share even if it was his last. He took care of the ‘Pi Ba’ (crazy people) and taught me to look beyond what I think I see, as what matters, often are the things we see when we look more deeply.
I hope the Thai government will think kindly of ‘Pa’ and not forget him as I remember him daily. I know he will still be helping others in Phonthong Prison to survive. Chok dee Pa.
Kay Danes
Former Political Prisoner (Laos)
Source: Vientiane Times (at Readers Email Section)
Beyond the stereotypes of Thailand’s “Reds”
“Are the honest, ethical politicians staying out of politics since don’t want to get hands dirty?”
The honest, ethical what?! What a lovely planet they must live on.
Power is power is power and what is the point of being a governor if you cannot take photographs with hot girlies?
I think it is time that we all realised that these idealised middle class ideas of democracy coming out of Bangkok can only work under truly revolutionary circumstances:
I propose to the elites in Bangkok that the city split off from the rest of Thailand and become the “Thirty-percent Democratic Kingdom of Krungthep” banishing everyone who doesn’t conform (remarketing itself as a Singaporean-like trade hub) and then allowing Isan and parts of the north to be forcibly reunited with Laos (they certainly shouldn’t be able to vote about it) and similarly the other smaller regions could be left to ferment or any Suranaree-like revolts be pacified by the larger established states.
We need to acknowledge that the only places where democratic ideals do actually translate into practice are resource rich countries where living conditions are relatively homogenous and where ideas about political philosophy have not been tied to one silly idea about who has the final absolute word about what is right and wrong (as in opposed to resource rich countries where established elites have gained so much wealth and converted this wealth into so much power and influence that the very breath of alternative opinion is sucked out of the air before it can be uttered). For the ideas that the Bangkok middle class have about a puritanical democracy to work, Thailand would essentially have to take on Nordic characteristics – an abundance of resources that everyone wants to buy, a relatively ethnically homogenous (and small) population with a universal minimum living standard who are happy living through weird annual weather extremes and who have so little to do with their lives other than hunt whales and produce silly eighties pop songs that quibbling over free opinions has become an amusing past time.