I should add that the I presume its the EC that has the job of taking the population density and drawing boundaries of approx equal population so that when elections happen that the number of reps for each quantum of poulation are equal
I havent seen anything on this but suppose this was a big task after the 1997 constitution changes, and the EC are probably using the same map now
in Australia there is a periodic review of these boundaries to account for polulation movements… every 10 years or so?
“Greater Bangkok, including the Eastern Seaboard, should contribute 50% (or its contribution to GDP) and the rest of the country 50% to the overall vote total. Why? Because these are the areas that are leading the country economically into the future.” is a good one
I would like to see a population density map of Thailand and match this with a GDP contribution map…. I think they should correlate fairly well …. because I think, in general, people move to where the jobs are and jobs are created where the people are
the democratic principle of one person one vote is a good one because it encapsulates the principle that all people are created equal and have the potential to be equal (even in GDP terms)… so the government for these people should treat them equally!
of course the correlation may not be as good as ideal, because some areas are underdeveloped or low on resources and for many reasons the people have not moved from the area even though their GDP contribution, measured in todays prices, is a bit lower… I just put in the measurement of GDP as an issue, because it could be that in a few years time rice production may be valued higher than concrete and steel or even electronics… beware and prepare for the future… you will look really silly if you undervalue the contribution of people now and find you need them tomorrow!
hmmmm…. hopefully something to mull on, especially when we consider the attitudes of PAD and their ancient backers
I think it is about time we faced the fact that this is a conflict between the Monarchy, Thailand’s traditional and dominant system of patriarchy, and a new system of patriarchy, probably still headed by Thaksin, that has arisen from Thailand’s democratic institutions. The Thaksin patriarchy has many unattractive aspects, but it is one that people can vote out peacefully.
The Monarchy is a vast institution that is much more than the King. He is its titular head, but the extent to which it controls him or he controls it, is the outcome of a battle of wits that a very old man cannot possibly hope to win. In any case, the rule of one man is largely a myth propagated by the institution of monarchy, in order to bring the population under its control. Only a few monarchs in the history of the world have managed to exert much personal control. Rama V, an enthusiast for the culture of western Europe, may have been one. The most fascinating European examples were the immensely talented and hard-working micromanager Frederick the Great, and the shrewd but self-indulgent Louis XIV.
The present Thai King has been a highly successful front man for the monarchy, more because of his attractive character than outstanding ability. He is morally upright, and has resisted the temptations of the hordes of fawning young women that have distracted kings and princes throughout human history. This example to Thai husbands to treat their wives with more respect is probably a very great contribution to the improvement of Thai society.
None of this has prevented his reign ending in failure. The failure is a mainly a constitutional one. The yawning gap between the democratic and the monarchical institutions has split the country. The most poisonous institution of all is the unelected Privy Council, and the King should probably share some blame for encouraging it. The Privy Council and the Cabinet appointed by Parliament should be one in the same. Thailand would do well to follow the example of more stable countries. In Australia, for example, executive power resides in the Governor General (the Queen of Australia’s representative) acting only on the advice of the Cabinet, who must be Members of Parliament, appointed by the Parliament. This unites the monarchical and democratic institutions and prevents the kind of split that is afflicting Thailand.
“I don’t recall there being really that much difference in the policies each party took to the last election.”
That basically only underlines my point – Democrats in the last elections thought copying with slight variations long standing TRT/PPP policies is enough to convince rural voters to vote or them.
They still don’t understand – people are not stupid. They have seen that this was just a copy, and do not trust the Democrats.
TRT/PPP have also over the years built a very strong basis in their main areas, where local party members are in regular contact with the electorate.
The Democrats have not yet developed their own elaborate policies that set them apart from TRT/PPP. They may have a countrywide network of party offices, but rarely in contact in villagers.
“kusons”:
You said:
“Again, sorry if I offended any Westerner on the abovementioned regard.”
The tragedy of your view is that it is not westerners who may feel insulted, which anyhow does not really matter, but that these very common views held under especially Democrat Elites is what the electorate of TRT/PPP is perceiving as highly insulting.
Because it is them that demand western style democracy (or better – a more egalitarian society which i believe is neither western nor eastern), and they find these aspirations reflected by TRT/PPP. And most of them are fully aware that TRT/PPP may not the most ideal party, but a step towards democracy, while they view the other parties as the same old elites.
I can only repeat – these people are not stupid, and they are not as easily duped as many imagine.
Economically dominating sectors of Thai society have often not the slightest idea about the way of life, the aspirations, and the perception of their fellow Thais who live in economically more repressed situations in the northern and northeastern villages, and in the industrial suburbs where the biggest support for TRT/PPP is.
I have sat together with UDD guards a day or two after the violence, including with people who have also taken active part in the Udon attack. I had suprising discussions with them, very open, and very educating. Most there did not point out the basic differences between west and east, but looked at the situation more as a question of development. The discussions were very reflective, and they were also very self reflective about their own actions.
I wish that there would be a possibility of a forum where people of your background could meet and discuss on an equal level with these people without all the huge barriers of Thai classism.
Why can i as a westerner (of upper class background) sit and discuss with these people, sit and discuss with people of your background, but there is hardly any avenue where you Thais can do that yourselves?
PAD/Democrats think they know what is best for these people – but they do not sit and listen to them, learn what they think and are.
Simply tragic – now we seem to have moved beyond discussion, and different views are fought out in the streets.
Dear David Brown: those monks at the PAD rally are just fake monks not recognized by the Thai Buddhist Organization. So please leave Buddhism out of it. What has happened at that rally is not Buddhist at all, e.g., the use of foul language is definitely forbidden in Buddhism.
The SPDC constitution sounds really scary as the military will forever control the strict 25% of three parliaments and, also the army chief of staff will still have absolute power whenever emergency deems necessary in his opinion.
Following is the summaries of parliamentary seats .
People Parliament or Lower House(Pyithu Hluttaw)
Elected 330
Army 110
Total 440
National Parliament or Upper House
Elected 168
Army 56
Total 224
Regional or State Parliaments
Strict 25% from the army
But, that constitution is now the new constitution of Burma as the rigged referendum, just after the devastating NARGIS, has already approved it.
Just hope the people of Burma will enjoy the “discipline-flourishing-democracy” very soon!
Nick said: “Instead of supporting PAD illegal and unconstitutional tactics – parties such as the Democrats should get their goddamn shit together, and start competing on a democratic plateau. Which until today they still haven’t.”
I don’t recall there being really that much difference in the policies each party took to the last election.
I am wondering how else they can compete – the masses don’t seem overly concerned with integrity or even statesmanship.
It seems to me like they have to go into the provinces and build a network from the ground up – that will not be easy, and in many cases could be life threatening – it’s a lot easier to just buy the existing networks!
Amberwaves: Please, this is not a particularly imaginative government, help them out!
For at least a week now I have been posting here and and at Bangkok Pundits site as well as at Absolutely Bangkok.com (as Hobby), and even posted a few suggestions here: http://www.nganadeeleg.blogspot.com
My basic argument has been that we all know the PAD has been unreasonable, but they are not the ones in power, so I have turned my attention to whether the government has been reasonable.
Some think merely being elected makes the government reasonable, however I think they could have done more to be seen to be reasonable (without giving in to unreasonable demands).
Had they done that (basically all they had to do was be more consultative on the constitutional amendment issue), then they would have been well justified in nipping in the bud the PAD ‘inundation’ of government house, and things would not have been allowed to escalate to the brink.
Mr Norton: Re: The proposed mediation – it’s about time someone stood back and looked at a way to find some common ground so that things can move forward.
That does not mean giving in to unreasonable demands, but rather coming up with reasonable proposals that neither side can back away from easily for fear of being seen as unreasonably unreasonable themselves.
Therefore I welcome the move if it is done in that spirit.
However, I still think the government could have already solved the crisis if they had made more effort to be seen to be reasonable, instead of merely painting the PAD as unreasonable.
We all know the PAD has been unreasonable, however whether the government has been reasonable, or not, is still subject to considerable dispute.
1.) Does educating people involve disenfranchising them and establishing a 70% appointed assembly?
Speaking of education, Thaksin has a PhD, so it automatically makes him so capable and virtuous that he will do everything for the greater good?
2.) Who gets to judge which kind of information is ‘right’? People like you?
3.) Even without the ‘one man one vote’ principle, the poor are inherently disadvantaged and unable to match the wealthy’s and the middle-class’ influence and ways of life. Having a government that listens to them rather than excludes them, is one of the few ways in which fairness or something close to it can be attained in our society. Sorry, does social mobility mean anything to you, or do you prefer that the poor stay poor and the rich stay rich?
Ed, I do not have the time or energy to reply to everything you say. I’m in the same situation Ed. I came here and posted a BKKpost link to Sondhi’s ideas for reference because I noticed that especially the non-Thai folks studying this situation haven’t done their homework: read what is on manager.
If you want to attack PAD and protect Thaksin and his puppet at the very least you ought to quote PAD. Isn’t that the way to go? Or are you going to keep trying to interpret through weak inferences from English sources. It’s like everyone has become a clone of the overwhelmed Dan Rivers who called PAD “elite” but then does a video of how the train station is empty because the train workers are on strike. Or is he saying unionized workers are “elite”. What’s happening is there are statements made in the media or blogs such as this one which are contradictory to what is going on in PAD as we speak.
Attack PAD by studying their FREE STREAMING MEDIA right here: http://www.manager.co.th/ Left column red button. Don’t just sit there and study ONLY the English media.
You seem to be saying in your recent post that governments should not offer policy choices (roads, railways, bridges, development funds, social welfare etc.) to voters as incentives for them to vote for them.
Ed, you may be in too much of a hurry to be reading my posts carefully.
How is it legal to trade votes in for contracts which benefit certain elders/village headmen or local powerful businesses? In the end the regional elites still benefit from these deals.
That’s how you monopolize a region’s businesses and at the same time intimidate voters to vote a certain way. It’s almost how some missionaries work—you gotta convert to get the fringe benefits of food and water which the incompetant government could not provide. The incompetant gov. being corrupt vote buying admin.
You call this rural development and “social welfare” when I’m talking about private businesses teamed up with politicians to secure an area.
Two different things.
A social project by Thaksin comes to mind Baan or Ban Ua-Arthorn project. Google it and see how well that scheme worked out.
Ed How would that be organised so that there was no competition on policy? .
There should be competition—but the competition gets destroyed if politicians are always going to favor certain contractors over the other. It’s localized “special interests” disenfranchizing voters from choosing what they want.
Guys a clarification for any offense I may have made:
I quote myself “You and probably most Western-Ideal-Democracy persons blanket impose on the situation that is unique as in Thailand”. This may probably offends many to most of Western Readers here, but let me explain where I’m coming from:
I was educated in an international school in Thailand, and later a Thai University; I do not despise Western-Ideal-Democracy. In fact, I think it is the best form of Government, as long as the population is ready for it- which they are. Most Western 1st World People are educated , and educated enough that if there were any protests, you wouldn’t see people with steel bars, knives and guns facing one another.
Thailand is different. And as everyone saw, both NPK, PAD were and in some cases had to be armed even if they knew better [if you understand the mechanics of Nuclear Arms buildup in your neighbor, you’d probably wont stay still]. The food is different. The culture is different. The understanding of Human Rights is different. Education level is different. The number of poor is different.
What I am saying is, it is unfair to put Western-Ideal-Democracy and judge Thailand by, because it is very different. And now is an even special case, when we have Corrupt Characters with Corrupt Values have infiltrated a “seemingly rightful Elected Government”. Thailand is in a very sick stage, and in my opinion, PAD is the only medicine that is strong enough to have effect on Sick Thailand. If we wait another 4 years, let alone 1 year, Cancer Will Take over and it will be too late.
I agree with every single one of you that what PAD are doing is not correct as per a democracy should be. But like “Martial Law” provisions, I really believe this is a special case.
Again, sorry if I offended any Westerner on the abovementioned regard.
Nicholas,
Do you know if the document you have posted actually turned out to be the Constitution presented at the referendum in May 2008?
I’m going to bet it was, but I sure don’t know.
Ken Gallant, Prof. of Law, Univ. of Ark–Little Rock, Bowen School of Law
David and Sai Latt,
in 2005 there was a newspaper story (maybe it was “only” Chiangmai News, not the mainstream or English language papers) about a sports festival at one of the Royal Projects, where the various ethnics engaged in “ethnic” sports and such (no soccer). Do you know if these are a regular occurrence? It seems to me that such spectacles are very important in making “hill tribes” unthinkable as farmers faced with contemporary problems of livelihood. After all, these people are traditional, they are of another time and place entirely. Among the things I noticed was a sign at the Chiangmai Airport, at the shop of the royal Mae Fah Luang Foundation, where they sell nice silk stuff that is attributed to the highland ethnic minorities, According to this sign, “the income from your purchase helps stop forest destruction, opium cultivation, sexual exploitation and drug addiction, thus improve and sustain [the] quality of life [of] ethnic minority groups in northern Thailand.” You can achieve all that amazing stuff by getting yourself some nice pillows for your living room, that is; accentuate your bourgeois comfort and style as you save the world. What a deal! Thanks for the peek under all the nice display of success. The two images are quite different (hill tribes as squarely unmodern, or hill tribes as squarely a problem for modern Thailand (and the world), but they come together in the image of helplessness, only outside projects and shoppers can save them from modernity (that would erode their traditions) and themselves (who are eroding the social and ecological fabric of the endangered kingdom).
we have a problem of attitude my friends, may I quote jon for example,
‘…and go on a rural shopping spree, buy mobile phones and make a down payment on a pick up truck…’
they’re disgusting, aren’t they? They have no right to have a phone and call their cousin, from the back of the pick up truck, asking if the buffalo is doing ok… by the way cousin, you want anything from Big C?
I wish they all didn’t exist, in my beautiful countryside!
I am sorry, i can’t afford to engage in long term future speculation of imaginary scenarios. Working this mess on the ground means that every single day the scenario completely changes, and the outcome is absolutely open, with momentarily advantages for PAD due to their expert tactics done by covert warfare specialists.
What you see is not what is going on.
Not just me, the foreign journalist, is threatened regularly – Thai journalists work under much worse conditions there. It does not mean that all PAD people threaten us, i have met of course many well meaning people, and many people that have had serious thought of pulling out because there are several things that do not sit right with them.
The most common complaints of those people:
1: the behavior of the Naclop Srivichai
2: the attack on NBT
3: the occupation of government house
4: the 70:30 “new politics”
5: the Preah Vihear issue
But discussion inside PAD is not encouraged, the ideology is prescribed by the leadership. Who does not follow is seen as a supporter of the government – eg. the enemy.
East different than the west – that is the same old argument that has been used by both right and left wing autocrats of the region for a very long time to excuse their dictatorships. Often this argument is senselessly repeated by many that have never been even in the west, or have a very myopic view of both cultures – usually through their Cartier glasses.
Cultural exchange between East and west goes way back into the stone age, there is no basic difference between the dreams of freedom and self realization, unless suppressed by a catastrophic education system.
Many of the unwashed masses may not have great education certificates, but their life experience often outweighs the one of our proud middle classes here. During the last 20 years many villagers have worked extensive periods in foreign countries, have married foreigners, and have seen what more advanced countries offer their citizens. It is my experience that there is an increasing knowledge under those sectors of society of what they don’t have, and what they should get.
PAD, and who stands behind them, is in their way. Thaksin/TRT/PPP may not be the most ideal bringers of such goods, but they do reflect the aspirations of those sectors that vote for them. As long as no other party is speaking to them – they have no other choice than voting for those.
Instead of supporting PAD illegal and unconstitutional tactics – parties such as the Democrats should get their goddamn shit together, and start competing on a democratic plateau. Which until today they still haven’t.
And that is what is destroying Thailand, not some fuzzy PAD conspiracy theories connected to Thaksin the evil one to excuse one’s own completely illegal, outrageous and intolerable strategies that pull Thailand into maybe the most critical situation it has been since it turned into a modern nation state.
Burmese oppositions usually encounters the remarks like they are holding ‘negative views’ or they are the people with attitude of ‘you are with me or with the regime’. To be honest, majority of the oppositions are fond of the truth, justice and freedom and that is what they have been fighting for almost half a century. Why we, the oppositions are still calling for sanctions against not Burma but absolutely against the junta? It is the only way to achieve a peaceful transition to democracy, the alternative is ‘the military action’ which could claim thousands of lives not only on the target but on the senders as well. For sure, huge impacts on the civilians when the military action is resorted. However, the only viable approach is widely criticised and then what the critics want Burmese people to do? Say ‘yes’ to whatever the regime says and do whatever the regime asks? Fully cooperate with the junta on oppression against innocent civilians who voice for rights and freedom?
We have to voice for the truth, we have the right to claim genuine tragedies across the country. If there are people who wants to say that the regime is right, they better go and see the refugee camps in Thai-Burma border and thousands of IDPs. Everyone can witness online for the junta’s brutality against ethnic civilians as there are videos and photographic evidences. Further, the junta don’t bother to kill even the foreign journalist as you would have known that incident in September, last year. How many political prisoners in Burma and how many has died in the torture chambers? We have factual evidences but not fictitious numbers.
In short, we want justice and freedom and we are ready to recognise if the regime genuinely wish for the reconciliation. But they need to prove by releasing political prisoners including Suu Kyi and reducing harassments on the dissidents first.
this slur panders to all the worst aspects in people… jealousy of city vs country, rich vs poor, modern industry vs agriculture, central vs northern/north eastern thai, etc…
I have suggested a research project looking at all the aspects of this but very simplistically:
a friend of mine suggested that perhaps 100M Baht could be spent, the other day a PAD leader suggested 30M
going with the bigger number – dividing by 400B per vote gives 250,000 votes max influenced, about 40M voters, margin 2M?
not enough money
so my conclusion is that its a beatup:
buying votes – I dont believe made a significant difference to the
election results
its the policies stupid, decentralisation into the country, amazing, the country people voted for them! …. through 4 democratic
elections in a row!
as someone said, the losers in elections always have ego issues, its a
measure of civilisation how they control it
>(from nganadeeleg) btw, Do you honestly think the government has done all it could have to resolve the crisis (non violently)?
Since the PAD hasn’t made a single conciliatory gesture, refuses to make any unless Samak resigns and violently resists arrest and police orders, what do you have in mind?
Please, this is not a particularly imaginative government, help them out!
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Samak brutally represses PAD by proposing that the people decide (again)!
I should add that the I presume its the EC that has the job of taking the population density and drawing boundaries of approx equal population so that when elections happen that the number of reps for each quantum of poulation are equal
I havent seen anything on this but suppose this was a big task after the 1997 constitution changes, and the EC are probably using the same map now
in Australia there is a periodic review of these boundaries to account for polulation movements… every 10 years or so?
Samak brutally represses PAD by proposing that the people decide (again)!
hi jonfernquest, thanks for your comments
actually I think your suggestion that:
“Greater Bangkok, including the Eastern Seaboard, should contribute 50% (or its contribution to GDP) and the rest of the country 50% to the overall vote total. Why? Because these are the areas that are leading the country economically into the future.” is a good one
I would like to see a population density map of Thailand and match this with a GDP contribution map…. I think they should correlate fairly well …. because I think, in general, people move to where the jobs are and jobs are created where the people are
the democratic principle of one person one vote is a good one because it encapsulates the principle that all people are created equal and have the potential to be equal (even in GDP terms)… so the government for these people should treat them equally!
of course the correlation may not be as good as ideal, because some areas are underdeveloped or low on resources and for many reasons the people have not moved from the area even though their GDP contribution, measured in todays prices, is a bit lower… I just put in the measurement of GDP as an issue, because it could be that in a few years time rice production may be valued higher than concrete and steel or even electronics… beware and prepare for the future… you will look really silly if you undervalue the contribution of people now and find you need them tomorrow!
hmmmm…. hopefully something to mull on, especially when we consider the attitudes of PAD and their ancient backers
Thai crisis. Royal silence.
I think it is about time we faced the fact that this is a conflict between the Monarchy, Thailand’s traditional and dominant system of patriarchy, and a new system of patriarchy, probably still headed by Thaksin, that has arisen from Thailand’s democratic institutions. The Thaksin patriarchy has many unattractive aspects, but it is one that people can vote out peacefully.
The Monarchy is a vast institution that is much more than the King. He is its titular head, but the extent to which it controls him or he controls it, is the outcome of a battle of wits that a very old man cannot possibly hope to win. In any case, the rule of one man is largely a myth propagated by the institution of monarchy, in order to bring the population under its control. Only a few monarchs in the history of the world have managed to exert much personal control. Rama V, an enthusiast for the culture of western Europe, may have been one. The most fascinating European examples were the immensely talented and hard-working micromanager Frederick the Great, and the shrewd but self-indulgent Louis XIV.
The present Thai King has been a highly successful front man for the monarchy, more because of his attractive character than outstanding ability. He is morally upright, and has resisted the temptations of the hordes of fawning young women that have distracted kings and princes throughout human history. This example to Thai husbands to treat their wives with more respect is probably a very great contribution to the improvement of Thai society.
None of this has prevented his reign ending in failure. The failure is a mainly a constitutional one. The yawning gap between the democratic and the monarchical institutions has split the country. The most poisonous institution of all is the unelected Privy Council, and the King should probably share some blame for encouraging it. The Privy Council and the Cabinet appointed by Parliament should be one in the same. Thailand would do well to follow the example of more stable countries. In Australia, for example, executive power resides in the Governor General (the Queen of Australia’s representative) acting only on the advice of the Cabinet, who must be Members of Parliament, appointed by the Parliament. This unites the monarchical and democratic institutions and prevents the kind of split that is afflicting Thailand.
Report on last night’s clash
“nganadeeleg”:
You said:
“I don’t recall there being really that much difference in the policies each party took to the last election.”
That basically only underlines my point – Democrats in the last elections thought copying with slight variations long standing TRT/PPP policies is enough to convince rural voters to vote or them.
They still don’t understand – people are not stupid. They have seen that this was just a copy, and do not trust the Democrats.
TRT/PPP have also over the years built a very strong basis in their main areas, where local party members are in regular contact with the electorate.
The Democrats have not yet developed their own elaborate policies that set them apart from TRT/PPP. They may have a countrywide network of party offices, but rarely in contact in villagers.
“kusons”:
You said:
“Again, sorry if I offended any Westerner on the abovementioned regard.”
The tragedy of your view is that it is not westerners who may feel insulted, which anyhow does not really matter, but that these very common views held under especially Democrat Elites is what the electorate of TRT/PPP is perceiving as highly insulting.
Because it is them that demand western style democracy (or better – a more egalitarian society which i believe is neither western nor eastern), and they find these aspirations reflected by TRT/PPP. And most of them are fully aware that TRT/PPP may not the most ideal party, but a step towards democracy, while they view the other parties as the same old elites.
I can only repeat – these people are not stupid, and they are not as easily duped as many imagine.
Economically dominating sectors of Thai society have often not the slightest idea about the way of life, the aspirations, and the perception of their fellow Thais who live in economically more repressed situations in the northern and northeastern villages, and in the industrial suburbs where the biggest support for TRT/PPP is.
I have sat together with UDD guards a day or two after the violence, including with people who have also taken active part in the Udon attack. I had suprising discussions with them, very open, and very educating. Most there did not point out the basic differences between west and east, but looked at the situation more as a question of development. The discussions were very reflective, and they were also very self reflective about their own actions.
I wish that there would be a possibility of a forum where people of your background could meet and discuss on an equal level with these people without all the huge barriers of Thai classism.
Why can i as a westerner (of upper class background) sit and discuss with these people, sit and discuss with people of your background, but there is hardly any avenue where you Thais can do that yourselves?
PAD/Democrats think they know what is best for these people – but they do not sit and listen to them, learn what they think and are.
Simply tragic – now we seem to have moved beyond discussion, and different views are fought out in the streets.
“Has the Thai king had enough?”
Dear David Brown: those monks at the PAD rally are just fake monks not recognized by the Thai Buddhist Organization. So please leave Buddhism out of it. What has happened at that rally is not Buddhist at all, e.g., the use of foul language is definitely forbidden in Buddhism.
Burma’s draft 2008 constitution
The SPDC constitution sounds really scary as the military will forever control the strict 25% of three parliaments and, also the army chief of staff will still have absolute power whenever emergency deems necessary in his opinion.
Following is the summaries of parliamentary seats .
People Parliament or Lower House(Pyithu Hluttaw)
Elected 330
Army 110
Total 440
National Parliament or Upper House
Elected 168
Army 56
Total 224
Regional or State Parliaments
Strict 25% from the army
But, that constitution is now the new constitution of Burma as the rigged referendum, just after the devastating NARGIS, has already approved it.
Just hope the people of Burma will enjoy the “discipline-flourishing-democracy” very soon!
Report on last night’s clash
Nick said: “Instead of supporting PAD illegal and unconstitutional tactics – parties such as the Democrats should get their goddamn shit together, and start competing on a democratic plateau. Which until today they still haven’t.”
I don’t recall there being really that much difference in the policies each party took to the last election.
I am wondering how else they can compete – the masses don’t seem overly concerned with integrity or even statesmanship.
It seems to me like they have to go into the provinces and build a network from the ground up – that will not be easy, and in many cases could be life threatening – it’s a lot easier to just buy the existing networks!
Report on last night’s clash
Amberwaves: Please, this is not a particularly imaginative government, help them out!
For at least a week now I have been posting here and and at Bangkok Pundits site as well as at Absolutely Bangkok.com (as Hobby), and even posted a few suggestions here: http://www.nganadeeleg.blogspot.com
My basic argument has been that we all know the PAD has been unreasonable, but they are not the ones in power, so I have turned my attention to whether the government has been reasonable.
Some think merely being elected makes the government reasonable, however I think they could have done more to be seen to be reasonable (without giving in to unreasonable demands).
Had they done that (basically all they had to do was be more consultative on the constitutional amendment issue), then they would have been well justified in nipping in the bud the PAD ‘inundation’ of government house, and things would not have been allowed to escalate to the brink.
An extract from Handley’s TKNS
Mr Norton: Re: The proposed mediation – it’s about time someone stood back and looked at a way to find some common ground so that things can move forward.
That does not mean giving in to unreasonable demands, but rather coming up with reasonable proposals that neither side can back away from easily for fear of being seen as unreasonably unreasonable themselves.
Therefore I welcome the move if it is done in that spirit.
However, I still think the government could have already solved the crisis if they had made more effort to be seen to be reasonable, instead of merely painting the PAD as unreasonable.
We all know the PAD has been unreasonable, however whether the government has been reasonable, or not, is still subject to considerable dispute.
Interview with Professor Janet Sturgeon
Dear Tony Zola,
Can you please send me your email address.
Many thanks
Samak brutally represses PAD by proposing that the people decide (again)!
jonfernquest:
1.) Does educating people involve disenfranchising them and establishing a 70% appointed assembly?
Speaking of education, Thaksin has a PhD, so it automatically makes him so capable and virtuous that he will do everything for the greater good?
2.) Who gets to judge which kind of information is ‘right’? People like you?
3.) Even without the ‘one man one vote’ principle, the poor are inherently disadvantaged and unable to match the wealthy’s and the middle-class’ influence and ways of life. Having a government that listens to them rather than excludes them, is one of the few ways in which fairness or something close to it can be attained in our society. Sorry, does social mobility mean anything to you, or do you prefer that the poor stay poor and the rich stay rich?
A PAD strategy?
Ed, I do not have the time or energy to reply to everything you say. I’m in the same situation Ed. I came here and posted a BKKpost link to Sondhi’s ideas for reference because I noticed that especially the non-Thai folks studying this situation haven’t done their homework: read what is on manager.
If you want to attack PAD and protect Thaksin and his puppet at the very least you ought to quote PAD. Isn’t that the way to go? Or are you going to keep trying to interpret through weak inferences from English sources. It’s like everyone has become a clone of the overwhelmed Dan Rivers who called PAD “elite” but then does a video of how the train station is empty because the train workers are on strike. Or is he saying unionized workers are “elite”. What’s happening is there are statements made in the media or blogs such as this one which are contradictory to what is going on in PAD as we speak.
Attack PAD by studying their FREE STREAMING MEDIA right here:
http://www.manager.co.th/ Left column red button. Don’t just sit there and study ONLY the English media.
You seem to be saying in your recent post that governments should not offer policy choices (roads, railways, bridges, development funds, social welfare etc.) to voters as incentives for them to vote for them.
Ed, you may be in too much of a hurry to be reading my posts carefully.
How is it legal to trade votes in for contracts which benefit certain elders/village headmen or local powerful businesses? In the end the regional elites still benefit from these deals.
That’s how you monopolize a region’s businesses and at the same time intimidate voters to vote a certain way. It’s almost how some missionaries work—you gotta convert to get the fringe benefits of food and water which the incompetant government could not provide. The incompetant gov. being corrupt vote buying admin.
You call this rural development and “social welfare” when I’m talking about private businesses teamed up with politicians to secure an area.
Two different things.
A social project by Thaksin comes to mind Baan or Ban Ua-Arthorn project. Google it and see how well that scheme worked out.
Populist ideas are fine—if they aren’t corrupt.
But we don’t have to discuss only contracts. You can even pull in drugs into the mix. Read “Drugs for Votes” http://www.bangkokpost.com/topstories/topstories.php?id=124480 (sorry it’s a PPP example–my bad)
Ed How would that be organised so that there was no competition on policy? .
There should be competition—but the competition gets destroyed if politicians are always going to favor certain contractors over the other. It’s localized “special interests” disenfranchizing voters from choosing what they want.
Report on last night’s clash
Guys a clarification for any offense I may have made:
I quote myself “You and probably most Western-Ideal-Democracy persons blanket impose on the situation that is unique as in Thailand”. This may probably offends many to most of Western Readers here, but let me explain where I’m coming from:
I was educated in an international school in Thailand, and later a Thai University; I do not despise Western-Ideal-Democracy. In fact, I think it is the best form of Government, as long as the population is ready for it- which they are. Most Western 1st World People are educated , and educated enough that if there were any protests, you wouldn’t see people with steel bars, knives and guns facing one another.
Thailand is different. And as everyone saw, both NPK, PAD were and in some cases had to be armed even if they knew better [if you understand the mechanics of Nuclear Arms buildup in your neighbor, you’d probably wont stay still]. The food is different. The culture is different. The understanding of Human Rights is different. Education level is different. The number of poor is different.
What I am saying is, it is unfair to put Western-Ideal-Democracy and judge Thailand by, because it is very different. And now is an even special case, when we have Corrupt Characters with Corrupt Values have infiltrated a “seemingly rightful Elected Government”. Thailand is in a very sick stage, and in my opinion, PAD is the only medicine that is strong enough to have effect on Sick Thailand. If we wait another 4 years, let alone 1 year, Cancer Will Take over and it will be too late.
I agree with every single one of you that what PAD are doing is not correct as per a democracy should be. But like “Martial Law” provisions, I really believe this is a special case.
Again, sorry if I offended any Westerner on the abovementioned regard.
Burma’s draft 2008 constitution
Nicholas,
Do you know if the document you have posted actually turned out to be the Constitution presented at the referendum in May 2008?
I’m going to bet it was, but I sure don’t know.
Ken Gallant, Prof. of Law, Univ. of Ark–Little Rock, Bowen School of Law
Examining the “success” of a northern Thai Royal Project
David and Sai Latt,
in 2005 there was a newspaper story (maybe it was “only” Chiangmai News, not the mainstream or English language papers) about a sports festival at one of the Royal Projects, where the various ethnics engaged in “ethnic” sports and such (no soccer). Do you know if these are a regular occurrence? It seems to me that such spectacles are very important in making “hill tribes” unthinkable as farmers faced with contemporary problems of livelihood. After all, these people are traditional, they are of another time and place entirely. Among the things I noticed was a sign at the Chiangmai Airport, at the shop of the royal Mae Fah Luang Foundation, where they sell nice silk stuff that is attributed to the highland ethnic minorities, According to this sign, “the income from your purchase helps stop forest destruction, opium cultivation, sexual exploitation and drug addiction, thus improve and sustain [the] quality of life [of] ethnic minority groups in northern Thailand.” You can achieve all that amazing stuff by getting yourself some nice pillows for your living room, that is; accentuate your bourgeois comfort and style as you save the world. What a deal! Thanks for the peek under all the nice display of success. The two images are quite different (hill tribes as squarely unmodern, or hill tribes as squarely a problem for modern Thailand (and the world), but they come together in the image of helplessness, only outside projects and shoppers can save them from modernity (that would erode their traditions) and themselves (who are eroding the social and ecological fabric of the endangered kingdom).
Samak brutally represses PAD by proposing that the people decide (again)!
we have a problem of attitude my friends, may I quote jon for example,
‘…and go on a rural shopping spree, buy mobile phones and make a down payment on a pick up truck…’
they’re disgusting, aren’t they? They have no right to have a phone and call their cousin, from the back of the pick up truck, asking if the buffalo is doing ok… by the way cousin, you want anything from Big C?
I wish they all didn’t exist, in my beautiful countryside!
Report on last night’s clash
“nganadeeleg”, “OTHERS”:
I am sorry, i can’t afford to engage in long term future speculation of imaginary scenarios. Working this mess on the ground means that every single day the scenario completely changes, and the outcome is absolutely open, with momentarily advantages for PAD due to their expert tactics done by covert warfare specialists.
What you see is not what is going on.
Not just me, the foreign journalist, is threatened regularly – Thai journalists work under much worse conditions there. It does not mean that all PAD people threaten us, i have met of course many well meaning people, and many people that have had serious thought of pulling out because there are several things that do not sit right with them.
The most common complaints of those people:
1: the behavior of the Naclop Srivichai
2: the attack on NBT
3: the occupation of government house
4: the 70:30 “new politics”
5: the Preah Vihear issue
But discussion inside PAD is not encouraged, the ideology is prescribed by the leadership. Who does not follow is seen as a supporter of the government – eg. the enemy.
East different than the west – that is the same old argument that has been used by both right and left wing autocrats of the region for a very long time to excuse their dictatorships. Often this argument is senselessly repeated by many that have never been even in the west, or have a very myopic view of both cultures – usually through their Cartier glasses.
Cultural exchange between East and west goes way back into the stone age, there is no basic difference between the dreams of freedom and self realization, unless suppressed by a catastrophic education system.
Many of the unwashed masses may not have great education certificates, but their life experience often outweighs the one of our proud middle classes here. During the last 20 years many villagers have worked extensive periods in foreign countries, have married foreigners, and have seen what more advanced countries offer their citizens. It is my experience that there is an increasing knowledge under those sectors of society of what they don’t have, and what they should get.
PAD, and who stands behind them, is in their way. Thaksin/TRT/PPP may not be the most ideal bringers of such goods, but they do reflect the aspirations of those sectors that vote for them. As long as no other party is speaking to them – they have no other choice than voting for those.
Instead of supporting PAD illegal and unconstitutional tactics – parties such as the Democrats should get their goddamn shit together, and start competing on a democratic plateau. Which until today they still haven’t.
And that is what is destroying Thailand, not some fuzzy PAD conspiracy theories connected to Thaksin the evil one to excuse one’s own completely illegal, outrageous and intolerable strategies that pull Thailand into maybe the most critical situation it has been since it turned into a modern nation state.
Interview with Burma’s Ma Thanegi
Burmese oppositions usually encounters the remarks like they are holding ‘negative views’ or they are the people with attitude of ‘you are with me or with the regime’. To be honest, majority of the oppositions are fond of the truth, justice and freedom and that is what they have been fighting for almost half a century. Why we, the oppositions are still calling for sanctions against not Burma but absolutely against the junta? It is the only way to achieve a peaceful transition to democracy, the alternative is ‘the military action’ which could claim thousands of lives not only on the target but on the senders as well. For sure, huge impacts on the civilians when the military action is resorted. However, the only viable approach is widely criticised and then what the critics want Burmese people to do? Say ‘yes’ to whatever the regime says and do whatever the regime asks? Fully cooperate with the junta on oppression against innocent civilians who voice for rights and freedom?
We have to voice for the truth, we have the right to claim genuine tragedies across the country. If there are people who wants to say that the regime is right, they better go and see the refugee camps in Thai-Burma border and thousands of IDPs. Everyone can witness online for the junta’s brutality against ethnic civilians as there are videos and photographic evidences. Further, the junta don’t bother to kill even the foreign journalist as you would have known that incident in September, last year. How many political prisoners in Burma and how many has died in the torture chambers? We have factual evidences but not fictitious numbers.
In short, we want justice and freedom and we are ready to recognise if the regime genuinely wish for the reconciliation. But they need to prove by releasing political prisoners including Suu Kyi and reducing harassments on the dissidents first.
Samak brutally represses PAD by proposing that the people decide (again)!
KV brought up the furphy of vote-buying again…..
this slur panders to all the worst aspects in people… jealousy of city vs country, rich vs poor, modern industry vs agriculture, central vs northern/north eastern thai, etc…
I have suggested a research project looking at all the aspects of this but very simplistically:
a friend of mine suggested that perhaps 100M Baht could be spent, the other day a PAD leader suggested 30M
going with the bigger number – dividing by 400B per vote gives 250,000 votes max influenced, about 40M voters, margin 2M?
not enough money
so my conclusion is that its a beatup:
buying votes – I dont believe made a significant difference to the
election results
its the policies stupid, decentralisation into the country, amazing, the country people voted for them! …. through 4 democratic
elections in a row!
as someone said, the losers in elections always have ego issues, its a
measure of civilisation how they control it
Report on last night’s clash
>(from nganadeeleg) btw, Do you honestly think the government has done all it could have to resolve the crisis (non violently)?
Since the PAD hasn’t made a single conciliatory gesture, refuses to make any unless Samak resigns and violently resists arrest and police orders, what do you have in mind?
Please, this is not a particularly imaginative government, help them out!