Khun Manning, I admit that it is only my suspicion – but one that is grounded in past blatant self-serving actions (examples of EXIM Bank load to Burma and also the change of laws/regulations to maximize the profitable sale of ShinCorp – all with enough evidences and grounds to be tried in court). The thing is, I can’t bring myself to believe that FMNoppodol and the whole Samak cabinet are not aware KhaoPhraVihear is a highly contentious issue – especially with the nationalist PAD protest country-wide. Various state agencies and academics have long adviced a joint listing. The process was carried out covertly without any wider participation – which in the end, has proven to be illegal…
It’s just too fishy not to be profitable for PMThaksin, the puppet master. It is likely that his prior meeting with PMHunsen was to discuss the deal – and the support of the Thai government (only cabinet in this case) for the listing was likely part of it. And most rumours concerning PMThaksin’s corruption and conflicts of interest through the years have proven to be true.
Frankly, I hope to be proven wrong rather than right – but PMThaksin is just… PMThaksin… and rather predictable (Maybe his soothsayer advised that Khao Phra Vihear must be listed for his ‘luck’ to improve? And this is complemented by countrywide merit making tours including to 1,000 monks at Dhammakaya on his birthday?)
Unless, ofcourse, you buy Khun Stima’s argument above that a billionaire like PMThaksin will not corrupt? One I haven’t heard since 2002…
# 28 “And to be honest, that’s just fine by me.” Another case of misplaced pride, I would say. But never mind. By all means, continue with your outpourings since they provide data for my ongoing research on the PAD. Just that it is not resonable to try and argue with spokespeople of any sort, because they necessarily have closed minds.
# 29 Heh, heh — You mean, “Position one — the educated gullibles” versus “Position two — the educated realists”?
OH man! what a headache!
Come on, Thaksin is a billionaire, without the two billion dollar he is still a millionaire…. in addition to being a former PRIME MINISTER of thailand,,,,,
Then call him a traiter… for exchange his own country territories for bussiness… way unbelievable…. !
That Saneh is a senile old man has been well known for many years. But the entire NHRC? One would like to know whether this letter had passed through commission deliberations before it was sent.
When I saw Saneh’s statement, my reaction was:
“If Saneh wants to become a political activist/supporter of the PAD, why does he not get up on their stage and give speech (a la Phuwadon)? Doing this is so pathetic”
Let me add also that some former teacher and friend of mine who I never in a million years thought would jump on to the PAD’s nationalistic bandwagon had done so. Being anti-Thaksin I can “understand” and “accept” and even expect – really. But joining this Preah Vihear campaign? This is very sad for me personally.
I refer particularly to the case of “р╕Юр╕╡р╣Ир╣Ар╕Щр╕▓р╕зр╣М” (the famous poet Naowarat Phongphibun) and, especially shocking, my former teacher Prof Srisak Wanliphodom. The latter even suggested a few days ago that the Thai military should lay seize to the “disputed area” and the PV temple for a year to pressure Cambodia to be more receptive to the Thai demands (or something of this sort, sorry no text readily on hand.)
Rest easy, my Khmer friends, we Thais are not going to engage you in a fight. We love you as fellow human beings. As to former PM Thaksin, it is unfair to accuse him of any unproven wrongdoing. Any rumour that is negative about Mr. Thaksin seems to gain currency fast. Let’s be fair to him a little. I would like to stress again: we all are fellow human beings.
Andrew–I had read this letter by the commission yesterday and appreciate you expressing your dismay. It truly is crazy that the HUMAN RIGHTS commission is choosing this as their battle.
I think we should DEFINITELY add Human Rights Watch (where people who real experts on democracy and human rights are working and who really care about these issues) to the “A” camp.
Oh, and thanks nganadeleg, for your suggestion to put that anthropologist-turned-democracy expert into camp “B”. I will second that proposal.
I am detailing at least ten separate Lese Majeste cases for a manuscript, including on in San Francisco filed by Thais in the US who didn’t like a Thai businessman’s suggestion that the 2 billion Baht for the last election be recovered from the king rather than the Election Commission.
In gathering material over the recent past on lese majeste, I wrote to that Silapakorn University professor who had been investigated for lese majeste because of exam questions he posed to students. If you all recall…
Well, he did reply, stating that he was investigated but that to date no legal charges against him have been made. Also indicates that he was informed the Palace had instructed the police to back off because of worldwide support for academic freedom in his case.
Just an update as a FYI.
There is probably some truth to the arguments on both sides, however I’m happy enough to stay in the A camp as it’s clear the Udon power brokers do not want the PAD message to be heard.
btw, I think Andrew could also be placed in the B camp.
On second thoughts, I might do just that, since although I haven’t been posting that long here at NM, it does seem I have already been “bitten” quite a few times whenever certain “academics” fail to (in your words) “limit their rage”.
Also, having read Franks article on Facism Thai Style, I am suddenly reminded of Kwanchai’s words along the lines of: “Udon belongs to us! Other people should stay out of here!”
Here, the line seems to be: “NM belongs to us (academics)! Other people (infantile, dumb, unintelligent, royalist, elitist, proto-facist, nationalists, etc.) should stay out of here!”
You now say that a body was destroyed by the police
ummm, Kuson, does this remind you of anything? (you know, the reading deficiency syndrome)
Anyways, Reg, the PAD have made the claim about the possible destruction of the corpse. Of course, it’s just a claim, which I never proposed that it should be believed on face value, but that is exactly why I phrased it as a is-it-true question . (i.e maybe it’s true, maybe it’s not)
But I’m not sure about why you would propose that your is-it-true question is a “real” one simply because of the existence of some press reports (and some bloggers linking to these).
May I ask how these press reporters u mentioned knew about the non-existence of death? Let me take a couple of guesses:
1. They hired some ghost doctors to scan the area and the ghost doctors confirmed to them that there were definitely no PAD spirits in the area.
or
2. They did some investigative reporting and interviewed some policemen:
Reporter: P1, are you aware of any deaths on that day?
P1: Oh, definitely not! I was there on duty that day and the 700 or so reds, though they were carrying axes, machetes, knives and iron bars, they were mostly quite civil in the way they utilized those weapons as far as I can tell.
Rep: Really, but video footage shows that many of them acted in a very uncontrolled manner.
P2 (intervening): No, I can confirm what P1 said. I was there that day on duty too. We let them run past through us because they seemed like they weren’t asking for that much trouble really, despite all the sharp weapons they were carrying. In fact I know a few of them since we hang out at the same local bar along with Kwanchai quite often. They’re quite nice people. They love Udon very much. I love Udon too.
Rep: ummm, but video footage actually shows many PAD supporters were “beaten to near death” (in the words of Human Rights Watch)
P2: Oh really, I never saw that footage, but anyways in the particular area where I was on duty it was quite peaceful. In any case, I am just absolutely certain there was no death. All my police friends on duty that day say the same thing. They saw no killing as simple as that.
Rep: But, in all the chaos and with more than 700 armed and angry Reds running around wild and the extreme brutality that actually happened as taped on video, don’t you think there might be some possibility that someone got killed.
P1: Look, like I’ve said before. No one died ok? Anyways, I never saw that footage you mention. Are you making it up? Show me the video!
Reporter: Well, since you insist that you and all your police friends that day saw no killing, ok, I believe you and will report this in the paper.
Now, how does the “press reports” make your question more “real” than mine? Or is the crucial factor the fact that some bloggers made links to these reports? I don’t know, maybe I do have rabies and can’t think properly anymore.
Those people who:
“Do not believe PAD wanted confrontation. PAD wanted to be heard, to give understanding to the local people, help them see the truth, how Thaksinism Works and how bad it is for Thai people in general. The Reds obviously do NOT want the uneducated gullibles to hear the truth and set forth to destroy them before the PADs let the “Truth Cat is Out of The Bag” and Boss Thaksin gets in big trouble. Uneducated Gullibles are the “Last Big Frontier” of people supporting Thaksin and thus Thaksinism. PAD views are non-violent, and coming to Udonthani is an act of goodwill towards the people there, so they can do the right thing for Thailand in the future.”
Frank G Anderson
Karmablues
Sidh S
nganadeeleg
Kuson
I think myself and the guys above here seem to understand the context of PAD that theirs is about Educating people about the pros/CONs of Thaksinism to promote intelligence-that takes us all forward, and to eradicate ignorance-that pulls us back. This is probably the way of the Academics in general.
B. POSITION 2: PAD ARE TO BE BLAME
Those who believe:
“PAD wanted to start a fight OR were asking for a headbash by going to Udonthani “Red Territory” to provoke them (but unfortunately forgot to take their weapons because it exceeded their luggage weight quota in the Bangkok-Udonthani ), in doing so wanted to sacrifice themselves so there can be more and more bloodshed so that the Military Can step in or The King Can step in again. PAD wanted their way so much, they think in bringing up the fight, they came in small a quantity “to make it look real”.
This party does not think PAD is even legitimate to do their kinds of protests and trying however violent, to achieve their aims. The Government, since it is supported by the Majority Reds (well, abit exaggerating here) — many who displayed their acts of ‘non-violence’ and stubborn dogma, is legitimate by the past elections, and should be given right of way:
R. N. England (?)
manning sawwinner (?)
Reg Varney (?)
Srithanonchai (?)
# 17 Are you an official spokesperson of PAD or what? It is getting boring.
Well, most of the points I made in #17, were the same ones made in the Human Rights Watch 26 July statement, so on that basis and in respect of the points I was conveying in #17, I’d say , I was just being a spokesperson for HRW. But I suppose you may have also concluded that HRW was being a spokesperson for PAD, so I guess it’s natural that you would also consider me to be one too. And to be honest, that’s just fine by me.
Finally the PPP call in the professionals to clean up the mess they caused. We had an amateur diplomat in Noppodol who was there solely because he is a PMThaksin’s ardent loyalist – and most probably only did his master’s bidding… (was it worth it I wonder, I heard a Hua-hin vendor refused to sell him congee – well, he can always eat in the hotels…)
It may be prove to be just another business transaction for PMThaksin, much like the one he pulled off with the Burmese Junta through EXIM bank (extended billions of Thai tax-payers money in loans for the Burmese to do business with ShinCorp – a case to be tried in the courts) – if we can find out who is the rumoured major investor in Cambodia’s Koh Kong island. It has all his “win-win” (for his businesses) trademark. PMHunsen gets Khao Phra Vihear listed and, in the ensuing event, turns a potential crisis into an election victory – and to add icing to the cake, according to Nicholas’ report, Cambodian unity. It is rumoured PMThaksin beat other potential investors to the Koh Kong contract…
If that is true, I think many Thais might prefer him in a Thai jail than pulling off deals along the Thai border while pulling the strings inside the Thai cabinet. At least, I hear that FMTej Bunnag is his own man (one actually prefered over PMThaksin’s proposal, a former ambassador to England) – so further business transactions through the foriegn ministry could be on hold…
Srithanonchai : Thanks for your clarification, that you liked the ‘lighter’ side of him. Thus, I understand where you’re coming from (your Srithanchai is NOT equal or not represent the dark side srithanonchai tale).
Just FYI – not related to your name choice, but srithanonchai-the folk tale (I keep in in small letter from distinguishing from your call sign) generally talk of him as “cunning or smart in the way of cheating” there are ‘funny’ tales that srithanonchai tries to interpret other people’s say for his own good or in some cases treat them literally [like the episode on building chedis, or when asking for land in a ‘small amount’ in the amount that ‘a cat will twirl when clubbed on the head’]. This is the context, though not heard everywhere in the news, why Thaksin critics can call him ‘srithanchai’ because it fits this description (the dark side, not the light side).
Sidh: Agreed- “better talk about the Bright—Side of Life , Weehew whew whew [whistles to the tune of the song]” especially if you’re at tourist and looking away from time from the troubles 😉
Karmablues good points, good info.
Guys sorry for putting this “srithanonchai Thai folk tales” on the thread, which is away from the agenda.
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Ji Ungpakorn on the “carnival of reaction”
# 57 Since when does being dogmatically pro-PAD make you a saint who must never be contradicted?
“I am ready to fight the Thais…”
Khun Manning, I admit that it is only my suspicion – but one that is grounded in past blatant self-serving actions (examples of EXIM Bank load to Burma and also the change of laws/regulations to maximize the profitable sale of ShinCorp – all with enough evidences and grounds to be tried in court). The thing is, I can’t bring myself to believe that FMNoppodol and the whole Samak cabinet are not aware KhaoPhraVihear is a highly contentious issue – especially with the nationalist PAD protest country-wide. Various state agencies and academics have long adviced a joint listing. The process was carried out covertly without any wider participation – which in the end, has proven to be illegal…
It’s just too fishy not to be profitable for PMThaksin, the puppet master. It is likely that his prior meeting with PMHunsen was to discuss the deal – and the support of the Thai government (only cabinet in this case) for the listing was likely part of it. And most rumours concerning PMThaksin’s corruption and conflicts of interest through the years have proven to be true.
Frankly, I hope to be proven wrong rather than right – but PMThaksin is just… PMThaksin… and rather predictable (Maybe his soothsayer advised that Khao Phra Vihear must be listed for his ‘luck’ to improve? And this is complemented by countrywide merit making tours including to 1,000 monks at Dhammakaya on his birthday?)
Unless, ofcourse, you buy Khun Stima’s argument above that a billionaire like PMThaksin will not corrupt? One I haven’t heard since 2002…
Thuggery and madness
For a researcher to find so many closed minds in spokespersons is a bit of an oxymoron, if I may say…
Thuggery and madness
# 28 “And to be honest, that’s just fine by me.” Another case of misplaced pride, I would say. But never mind. By all means, continue with your outpourings since they provide data for my ongoing research on the PAD. Just that it is not resonable to try and argue with spokespeople of any sort, because they necessarily have closed minds.
# 29 Heh, heh — You mean, “Position one — the educated gullibles” versus “Position two — the educated realists”?
“I am ready to fight the Thais…”
OH man! what a headache!
Come on, Thaksin is a billionaire, without the two billion dollar he is still a millionaire…. in addition to being a former PRIME MINISTER of thailand,,,,,
Then call him a traiter… for exchange his own country territories for bussiness… way unbelievable…. !
บ้า
That Saneh is a senile old man has been well known for many years. But the entire NHRC? One would like to know whether this letter had passed through commission deliberations before it was sent.
Denying the Democratic Voice of Burma
It is worth adding that the website of New Delhi-based Mizzima News has also been hit hard by a DDOS attack.
They seem to have sidestepped some of the fury with a new Burmese-language site which is available here.
Nonetheless it does look like the current episode of “cyber-warfare”, or whatever you want to call it, has new targets.
Is it the season?
Best wishes to all,
Nich
บ้า
very apt headline! Yes р╕Ър╣Йр╕▓ indeed.
When I saw Saneh’s statement, my reaction was:
“If Saneh wants to become a political activist/supporter of the PAD, why does he not get up on their stage and give speech (a la Phuwadon)? Doing this is so pathetic”
Let me add also that some former teacher and friend of mine who I never in a million years thought would jump on to the PAD’s nationalistic bandwagon had done so. Being anti-Thaksin I can “understand” and “accept” and even expect – really. But joining this Preah Vihear campaign? This is very sad for me personally.
I refer particularly to the case of “р╕Юр╕╡р╣Ир╣Ар╕Щр╕▓р╕зр╣М” (the famous poet Naowarat Phongphibun) and, especially shocking, my former teacher Prof Srisak Wanliphodom. The latter even suggested a few days ago that the Thai military should lay seize to the “disputed area” and the PV temple for a year to pressure Cambodia to be more receptive to the Thai demands (or something of this sort, sorry no text readily on hand.)
“I am ready to fight the Thais…”
Rest easy, my Khmer friends, we Thais are not going to engage you in a fight. We love you as fellow human beings. As to former PM Thaksin, it is unfair to accuse him of any unproven wrongdoing. Any rumour that is negative about Mr. Thaksin seems to gain currency fast. Let’s be fair to him a little. I would like to stress again: we all are fellow human beings.
บ้า
Andrew–I had read this letter by the commission yesterday and appreciate you expressing your dismay. It truly is crazy that the HUMAN RIGHTS commission is choosing this as their battle.
🙁
Thuggery and madness
I think we should DEFINITELY add Human Rights Watch (where people who real experts on democracy and human rights are working and who really care about these issues) to the “A” camp.
Oh, and thanks nganadeleg, for your suggestion to put that anthropologist-turned-democracy expert into camp “B”. I will second that proposal.
Pithy summary of lese majeste in Thailand
I am detailing at least ten separate Lese Majeste cases for a manuscript, including on in San Francisco filed by Thais in the US who didn’t like a Thai businessman’s suggestion that the 2 billion Baht for the last election be recovered from the king rather than the Election Commission.
Pithy summary of lese majeste in Thailand
30 July 2008
In gathering material over the recent past on lese majeste, I wrote to that Silapakorn University professor who had been investigated for lese majeste because of exam questions he posed to students. If you all recall…
Well, he did reply, stating that he was investigated but that to date no legal charges against him have been made. Also indicates that he was informed the Palace had instructed the police to back off because of worldwide support for academic freedom in his case.
Just an update as a FYI.
Thuggery and madness
There is probably some truth to the arguments on both sides, however I’m happy enough to stay in the A camp as it’s clear the Udon power brokers do not want the PAD message to be heard.
btw, I think Andrew could also be placed in the B camp.
Ji Ungpakorn on the “carnival of reaction”
Re #55
“Get the rabies shots now”
On second thoughts, I might do just that, since although I haven’t been posting that long here at NM, it does seem I have already been “bitten” quite a few times whenever certain “academics” fail to (in your words) “limit their rage”.
Also, having read Franks article on Facism Thai Style, I am suddenly reminded of Kwanchai’s words along the lines of: “Udon belongs to us! Other people should stay out of here!”
Here, the line seems to be: “NM belongs to us (academics)! Other people (infantile, dumb, unintelligent, royalist, elitist, proto-facist, nationalists, etc.) should stay out of here!”
Ji Ungpakorn on the “carnival of reaction”
Re#55
You now say that a body was destroyed by the police
ummm, Kuson, does this remind you of anything? (you know, the reading deficiency syndrome)
Anyways, Reg, the PAD have made the claim about the possible destruction of the corpse. Of course, it’s just a claim, which I never proposed that it should be believed on face value, but that is exactly why I phrased it as a is-it-true question . (i.e maybe it’s true, maybe it’s not)
But I’m not sure about why you would propose that your is-it-true question is a “real” one simply because of the existence of some press reports (and some bloggers linking to these).
May I ask how these press reporters u mentioned knew about the non-existence of death? Let me take a couple of guesses:
1. They hired some ghost doctors to scan the area and the ghost doctors confirmed to them that there were definitely no PAD spirits in the area.
or
2. They did some investigative reporting and interviewed some policemen:
Reporter: P1, are you aware of any deaths on that day?
P1: Oh, definitely not! I was there on duty that day and the 700 or so reds, though they were carrying axes, machetes, knives and iron bars, they were mostly quite civil in the way they utilized those weapons as far as I can tell.
Rep: Really, but video footage shows that many of them acted in a very uncontrolled manner.
P2 (intervening): No, I can confirm what P1 said. I was there that day on duty too. We let them run past through us because they seemed like they weren’t asking for that much trouble really, despite all the sharp weapons they were carrying. In fact I know a few of them since we hang out at the same local bar along with Kwanchai quite often. They’re quite nice people. They love Udon very much. I love Udon too.
Rep: ummm, but video footage actually shows many PAD supporters were “beaten to near death” (in the words of Human Rights Watch)
P2: Oh really, I never saw that footage, but anyways in the particular area where I was on duty it was quite peaceful. In any case, I am just absolutely certain there was no death. All my police friends on duty that day say the same thing. They saw no killing as simple as that.
Rep: But, in all the chaos and with more than 700 armed and angry Reds running around wild and the extreme brutality that actually happened as taped on video, don’t you think there might be some possibility that someone got killed.
P1: Look, like I’ve said before. No one died ok? Anyways, I never saw that footage you mention. Are you making it up? Show me the video!
Reporter: Well, since you insist that you and all your police friends that day saw no killing, ok, I believe you and will report this in the paper.
Now, how does the “press reports” make your question more “real” than mine? Or is the crucial factor the fact that some bloggers made links to these reports? I don’t know, maybe I do have rabies and can’t think properly anymore.
Thuggery and madness
Conclusion (?)
A. POSITION 1: PAD IS NOT TO BLAME
Those people who:
“Do not believe PAD wanted confrontation. PAD wanted to be heard, to give understanding to the local people, help them see the truth, how Thaksinism Works and how bad it is for Thai people in general. The Reds obviously do NOT want the uneducated gullibles to hear the truth and set forth to destroy them before the PADs let the “Truth Cat is Out of The Bag” and Boss Thaksin gets in big trouble. Uneducated Gullibles are the “Last Big Frontier” of people supporting Thaksin and thus Thaksinism. PAD views are non-violent, and coming to Udonthani is an act of goodwill towards the people there, so they can do the right thing for Thailand in the future.”
Frank G Anderson
Karmablues
Sidh S
nganadeeleg
Kuson
I think myself and the guys above here seem to understand the context of PAD that theirs is about Educating people about the pros/CONs of Thaksinism to promote intelligence-that takes us all forward, and to eradicate ignorance-that pulls us back. This is probably the way of the Academics in general.
B. POSITION 2: PAD ARE TO BE BLAME
Those who believe:
“PAD wanted to start a fight OR were asking for a headbash by going to Udonthani “Red Territory” to provoke them (but unfortunately forgot to take their weapons because it exceeded their luggage weight quota in the Bangkok-Udonthani ), in doing so wanted to sacrifice themselves so there can be more and more bloodshed so that the Military Can step in or The King Can step in again. PAD wanted their way so much, they think in bringing up the fight, they came in small a quantity “to make it look real”.
This party does not think PAD is even legitimate to do their kinds of protests and trying however violent, to achieve their aims. The Government, since it is supported by the Majority Reds (well, abit exaggerating here) — many who displayed their acts of ‘non-violence’ and stubborn dogma, is legitimate by the past elections, and should be given right of way:
R. N. England (?)
manning sawwinner (?)
Reg Varney (?)
Srithanonchai (?)
Ok guys, shoot me down.
Thuggery and madness
Re #24
# 17 Are you an official spokesperson of PAD or what? It is getting boring.
Well, most of the points I made in #17, were the same ones made in the Human Rights Watch 26 July statement, so on that basis and in respect of the points I was conveying in #17, I’d say , I was just being a spokesperson for HRW. But I suppose you may have also concluded that HRW was being a spokesperson for PAD, so I guess it’s natural that you would also consider me to be one too. And to be honest, that’s just fine by me.
“I am ready to fight the Thais…”
Finally the PPP call in the professionals to clean up the mess they caused. We had an amateur diplomat in Noppodol who was there solely because he is a PMThaksin’s ardent loyalist – and most probably only did his master’s bidding… (was it worth it I wonder, I heard a Hua-hin vendor refused to sell him congee – well, he can always eat in the hotels…)
It may be prove to be just another business transaction for PMThaksin, much like the one he pulled off with the Burmese Junta through EXIM bank (extended billions of Thai tax-payers money in loans for the Burmese to do business with ShinCorp – a case to be tried in the courts) – if we can find out who is the rumoured major investor in Cambodia’s Koh Kong island. It has all his “win-win” (for his businesses) trademark. PMHunsen gets Khao Phra Vihear listed and, in the ensuing event, turns a potential crisis into an election victory – and to add icing to the cake, according to Nicholas’ report, Cambodian unity. It is rumoured PMThaksin beat other potential investors to the Koh Kong contract…
If that is true, I think many Thais might prefer him in a Thai jail than pulling off deals along the Thai border while pulling the strings inside the Thai cabinet. At least, I hear that FMTej Bunnag is his own man (one actually prefered over PMThaksin’s proposal, a former ambassador to England) – so further business transactions through the foriegn ministry could be on hold…
Time to go home
Srithanonchai : Thanks for your clarification, that you liked the ‘lighter’ side of him. Thus, I understand where you’re coming from (your Srithanchai is NOT equal or not represent the dark side srithanonchai tale).
Just FYI – not related to your name choice, but srithanonchai-the folk tale (I keep in in small letter from distinguishing from your call sign) generally talk of him as “cunning or smart in the way of cheating” there are ‘funny’ tales that srithanonchai tries to interpret other people’s say for his own good or in some cases treat them literally [like the episode on building chedis, or when asking for land in a ‘small amount’ in the amount that ‘a cat will twirl when clubbed on the head’]. This is the context, though not heard everywhere in the news, why Thaksin critics can call him ‘srithanchai’ because it fits this description (the dark side, not the light side).
Sidh: Agreed- “better talk about the Bright—Side of Life , Weehew whew whew [whistles to the tune of the song]” especially if you’re at tourist and looking away from time from the troubles 😉
Karmablues good points, good info.
Guys sorry for putting this “srithanonchai Thai folk tales” on the thread, which is away from the agenda.