Moe Aung, you have to tell us a bit more about your old man. It must be very interesting.
Masao, that will be the opportunity for you. Why don’t you translate Yoshida’s book. By the look of your posts, you appear to write beautiful English prose.
A book like this will never hit the shelves because the Thai population is brainwashed, indoctrinated with nationalistic concepts from childhood that say that ‘nothing the country can do is wrong’ ‘nothing the government can do is wrong’ ‘stopping to sing the national anthem and pledging allegiance to the king makes for a better nation’ ‘the king really cares about how you’ll improve yourself this year, send postcards to him’ ‘blah blah blah blah…’
There are really few places that I can think of where the head of state’s face is plastered to billboards, posters, pictures in people’s houses, and all over TV: Cuba, North Korea, Soviet Russia, Fascist Italy, etc.
I am saying this as a Thai citizen. The general Thai population is taught from an early age extremely nationalistic concepts and they grow to be narrow-minded individuals with no grasp of their own history and politics let alone anything else that goes on in the rest of the world.
Do they know of the 1992 coup and subsequent massacre? What about the 1976 Thammasat massacre? What about the once-powerful communist presence in the jungles?
Hell, most Thais at around the age of 20 don’t know about the 1997 economic collapse other than that the baht devalued and sent them into debt. They don’t know why.
Thais are told what to do and they follow. It doesn’t matter who is in charge, they’ll just be f###d over while following who is in charge. They don’t know how to think for themselves.
This is all good though. It gives those of us who pay attention to what goes on around us an advantage; it makes for a nice society of 60 million that are just barely intelligent enough to work machinery and plow fields without making too much of a fuss.
Looks like your old man probably knew mine, Hla Oo. Well, unlike in Cuba, the civil war followed close behind the heels of the War, and the initial revolutionary fervor soon petered out as war weariness set in over the countryside. Besides they were fighting the first and Socialist government of newly independent Burma made up of their erstwhile comrades-in- arms and not an established right wing dictatorship. U Nu was also shrewd enough to deploy ethnic troops to fight the Communists in the Burman heartlands and then to recruit auxiliaries under the direct command of Ne Win to turn on the Karen later. India’s crucial arms shipment saved U Nu’s beleaguered ‘Rangoon government’.
The ‘victory in 2 years’ slogan gave way to the ‘1955 line’ when the Communists started suing for peace. Only an unconditional surrender was on offer with no chance of re-entering the political arena as a legal party. No cease-fire agreement was reached as in recent times with the armed ethnic groups. Some Burman groups did ‘enter the light’ and later formed opposition parties in parliament whose votes U Nu needed to survive after the AFPFL split. Socialist commanders in the army were staunch supporters of U Nu’s political adversaries and were destined to play a much bigger role in the running of the country and to prove Mao’s dictum – political power comes from the barrel of a gun. The rest as they say is history.
What always struck me is how safe Bangkok feels as a foreign resident. Compared to Detroit, New Orleans, or Washington D.C., Bangkok feels to me like a walled garden of safety, where at worst one may encounter a pickpocket or purse snatcher. I know plenty other foreign residents who would agree. My wife, back in grad school, once encountered up-close an armed robber being chased on foot by police right through a student neighborhood in Ohio!
But the statistics don’t lie. Last I heard, Thailand was hovering somewhere between Colombia and South Africa in the murder rate rankings.
Here is a paragraph from Michael Adas’ 1974 book, The Burma Delta: Economic Development and Social Change on an Asian Rice Frontier, 1852-1941: “Malaria was (and is) endemic to most of the Delta. It was particularly intense in those areas which were being settled for the first time. S. Grantham reported in 1920 that colonies attempting to open jungle tracts in the Myaungmya district were debilitated and even wiped out by malaria epidemics. He observed that after an area had been worked for some time that death rate and general malaise of the population declined. He attributed this drop to immunities developed by settlers who survived and a decrease in the number of mosquito vectors. More recent research bears out Grantham’s observations. It has shown that the Anopheles hyrcanus mosquito, which is the principle vector in Lower Burma, becomes extremely prolific in areas where forest has recently been cleared. If such areas are in tropical climates, the species has been known to produce serious malaria. Officers in many other Delta districts in the British period concurred with Grantham’s claim that malaria conditions had greatly hindered efforts to bring fertile tracts into production. In Konbaung times there was little incentive for settlers to move into virgin areas where malaria was likely to be endemic. Both migrants from the Dry Zone and the indigenous inhabitants tended to cluster in areas which had long been occupied. Thus, malaria was not only a major obstacle to agrarian development, it was also a prime determinant of settlements on the Delta frontier.” (p. 24-25)
Most of the 180,000 Japanese casualties in Burma during WWII died not in combat but from malaria, dysentery and starvation. Quinine was apparently not particularly effective, and the Japanese did not have a sufficient supply of it to begin with… Survivors have written horrifying stories of how they walked across Burma desperate for food and fighting disease.
Hla Oo, you asked if Yoshida’s writing is available in English. Unfortunately it is not. I very much hope that it will be.
Reg: ref “but is it okay to not be pro-Thaksin and to be critical of PAD? ” I think its ok, and my ok was on the basis ‘that its a free world’. However, in being so, it plays into Thaksinism’s Hands.
Let me explain my view.
Each party having its views on what is the Solution – what is the way out [the Question, with an adjective that has a declining passing score to assist answering it].
1) PADite “Yellows”: has its clear view of solution (Down with Thaksinism! Fix the system so that only persons understanding True Democracy Vote!)
2) Thaksinite “Reds”: has its clear view of solution (We have the votes! We’re Legal! Let us Rule (and do other interesting things) in Peace! Free the “You Know Who”)
3) Neutral “Whites”: Others. Probably not siding with 1) or 2), but either with a way out or without a way out.
a) “Without A Way Out” (without a Stance)- people who say “whatever you guys are fighting for, don’t block the streets. Just shake hands and love one another!”. I describe these persons as politically disinterested, maybe like Mr. SornRam initially. IMHO: This is not a solution, since it is as good as saying “hey Ms. Raped, what’s the fuss? Just kiss and make up with your Raper, don’t take him jail!”. This group plays well to the Government and Thaksinites — just what Thaksin needs -people who are indifferent to politics.
b) “With A Way Out” (with a Stance) – coming to why a few of us are interested in your solution “It involves listening to the electorate, following the law (whether it suits or not and subjecting everyone equally to the law) and working for change peacefully, through reasoned and reasonable civic action and through parliament and the ballot box” in #50 , which however good the principle is, does much favor tothe Thaksinites in 2) above! (ref Sidh’s item). And that is why we continue to probe further, “Thats ok in principle, but how do you get Thaksin to comply to such since he’s been the guy breaking it left and right?”. For which you answered “its not-a-smart question, why don’t the PADs comply first?”, for which we respond “Don’t you remember, Thaksin started it first?”. And then there is no further answer from you but just not wanting to answer the question at all on grounds of not-worthy-of-an-answer.
You can see in any case, the “Whites”, whether they are idealistic/goodwilling or just politically ignorant, unfortunately play into Thaksinite’s hands. – whether anyone wants to answer The Question or Not. If you can maintain that you’re a “White” party, taking the “Ideal Democracy” Route, whether you like it or not it plays into Thaksin’s hands.
[Unless the Courts can stand up against Thaksinism. 2 million THB pastry bribe case is a first test, but it will take alot of resolve to resist 50 million, 100 million, or a billion baht – which for I think Thaksin is just spare change. It is the test of integrity of the Judicial which will either pave way for eventual closure of PAD and advancement of Thai Democracy.]
CONCLUSION: So if you can explain what kind of “White” you are, whether you intentionally want it to play into the hands of Thaksin, or you just want an Idealistic Democracy– how you suggest we get there, is up to you to say,which if you want to clarify, you can answer “The Question”. But that’s up to you.
I am very relieved about the new blood in this thread, and have learned something from it. I still think that it is useful to see the present social conflict in Thailand as beeing quite similar to that which Europe went through in the past. We in the West are just a bit further down the road from feudalism (the various systems of patronage) to the rule of law. At present Thailand is bogged down in patronage. A new, more thoroughly capitalist-based patronage system has emerged to challenge the old royalist-militarist-capitalist one. It was clear in Thaksin’s time that the new system he headed was corrupt. It is clear now that his enemies are equally corrupt, and what is worse, violent. It is sad to see a culture which has so much going for it in such deep trouble. History shows that there is no guarantee that all militarists will always support the monarchy. A split is possible and it would be a disaster. The more the militarists bungle their relations with their own people, with their neighbours, and even, would you believe, with the UN, the greater the chance of some new group of generals forming, and attempting to shoot their way into power.
The rule of law offers a long-term way out, but it is something that is inculcated in the people from childhood, not imposed by decree or threat of punishment. The laws are strongest when people are happy to live by them. With luck, the transition from patronage/feudalism to the rule of law can be relatively painless. The Scandinavian constitutional monarchies are good examples. In some future Thai constitutional monarchy, the king could be the doyen of a reformed Thai culture, rather than the head of a system of patronage. The arts in Thailand are amongst the world’s treasures, and the job is an important one.
Kom Ment, that is terribly ignorant of you to compare Mugabe’s stranglehold on power to Thai education and even more ignorant to say that opposition to Zanu has been forever muzzled.
Papaya in Thailand has a depressingly dismal blog. So I suppose it’s only fair that he call the Thai education system dismal. Maybe if what Thais needed for survival, socially or physically changed, then you’d have an educational system that would adapt to those new circumstances.
Most of the comments I’ve read thus far seem to be like steam rising after a pressure valve of depression was released. Most are simply propagating a negative relativism, where ones values are superior because one believes they have been through a superior system. Good for them!
I was reflecting on the state of the political system in comparison to the educational system. Can those in the know shed light on how the educational system is essentially governed?
It would seem like the educational system is an entirely top-down, demagogic bureaucracy that hinders its development. Where do the parents get a say, besides being able to “offer” money to schools? Why are Thailand’s good and bright not allowed to shine? Inherently, it seems like the educational system’s regulatory functions need to be separate from the bureaucracy, similar to how the Universities are being offload from the state’s stranglehold. As perhaps the telecommunications industry was/is/will be separated (somewhat miserably) from the state: policy, strategy, direction, and dare I say innovation be handed over to the Ministry while the quality control and regulation handed over to a Regulator, especially over the private schools?
Just like how there are things the Thai state is doing right, there are things Thai education is doing right. Thai researchers are actually advancing humanity’s knowledge forward, but sadly they are few and un-influential.
kuson: but is it okay to not be pro-Thaksin and to be critical of PAD? On the “unintelligent” question – maybe “infantile” is a better word – that was directed at Sidh (#60).
This might be a good op to suggest the following that vested interests like acharn.com will never countenance. (We can’t upset the sponsors, can we?) A great deal of the TEFL/TESOL industry is essentially a scam. Perhaps not quite in the same league as people trafficking and international drug-running, but still intentionally & cynically exploitative.
There is also a small segment of the farang community that is deeply committed to Thailand and wishes it to succeed at every level. “Frankly, I think the author is of the former group rather than the later. Who would in their right mind stay in a profession for 9 years where there is clearly no satisfaction except to feel intellectually and morally superior to your students and colleagues?
Lastly, the essay in itself displayed all the characteristics of what he was criticizing: xenophobia, racism and farang exceptionalism, poorly constructed English, shoddy documentation, and superficiality over substance.”
Where exactly does that “deep commitment” lead? Booted out when you can no longer read the teaching materials to face a life back home in an OAP home talking to people who also have no respect for expat teachers.
Is it a treatise? It seems to me you have your own elitist notions of ‘Trailer Trash’.
This is the best thread here in a long time, because it covers an issue which has a direct impact on many of the posters. Forget all this PAD said, Samak said cobblers! Thailand’s political system is an unreformable basket-case that is not really worth commenting on because nothing we say will ever have any impact. Trouble is, the same is almost certainly true of the Ed system too.
Would Mugabe have ever compromised if his opposers had continued to smile and say nothing?
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PAD’s book of the week
Yeah, right, fake. NM made up this book. Dear me Bad mass, you are totally bad.
Cyclone-damaged rice production in Burma
very good links
First a cyclone, now floods
and the world stands by
Reporting from Burma
Thanks for the links!
1974 U Thant uprising – a first hand account
This is the best thing I’ve read all week. Thanks.
More Japanese tales
Moe Aung, you have to tell us a bit more about your old man. It must be very interesting.
Masao, that will be the opportunity for you. Why don’t you translate Yoshida’s book. By the look of your posts, you appear to write beautiful English prose.
The King Never Smiles?
A book like this will never hit the shelves because the Thai population is brainwashed, indoctrinated with nationalistic concepts from childhood that say that ‘nothing the country can do is wrong’ ‘nothing the government can do is wrong’ ‘stopping to sing the national anthem and pledging allegiance to the king makes for a better nation’ ‘the king really cares about how you’ll improve yourself this year, send postcards to him’ ‘blah blah blah blah…’
There are really few places that I can think of where the head of state’s face is plastered to billboards, posters, pictures in people’s houses, and all over TV: Cuba, North Korea, Soviet Russia, Fascist Italy, etc.
I am saying this as a Thai citizen. The general Thai population is taught from an early age extremely nationalistic concepts and they grow to be narrow-minded individuals with no grasp of their own history and politics let alone anything else that goes on in the rest of the world.
Do they know of the 1992 coup and subsequent massacre? What about the 1976 Thammasat massacre? What about the once-powerful communist presence in the jungles?
Hell, most Thais at around the age of 20 don’t know about the 1997 economic collapse other than that the baht devalued and sent them into debt. They don’t know why.
Thais are told what to do and they follow. It doesn’t matter who is in charge, they’ll just be f###d over while following who is in charge. They don’t know how to think for themselves.
This is all good though. It gives those of us who pay attention to what goes on around us an advantage; it makes for a nice society of 60 million that are just barely intelligent enough to work machinery and plow fields without making too much of a fuss.
More Japanese tales
Looks like your old man probably knew mine, Hla Oo. Well, unlike in Cuba, the civil war followed close behind the heels of the War, and the initial revolutionary fervor soon petered out as war weariness set in over the countryside. Besides they were fighting the first and Socialist government of newly independent Burma made up of their erstwhile comrades-in- arms and not an established right wing dictatorship. U Nu was also shrewd enough to deploy ethnic troops to fight the Communists in the Burman heartlands and then to recruit auxiliaries under the direct command of Ne Win to turn on the Karen later. India’s crucial arms shipment saved U Nu’s beleaguered ‘Rangoon government’.
The ‘victory in 2 years’ slogan gave way to the ‘1955 line’ when the Communists started suing for peace. Only an unconditional surrender was on offer with no chance of re-entering the political arena as a legal party. No cease-fire agreement was reached as in recent times with the armed ethnic groups. Some Burman groups did ‘enter the light’ and later formed opposition parties in parliament whose votes U Nu needed to survive after the AFPFL split. Socialist commanders in the army were staunch supporters of U Nu’s political adversaries and were destined to play a much bigger role in the running of the country and to prove Mao’s dictum – political power comes from the barrel of a gun. The rest as they say is history.
A murderous mix of impunity
What always struck me is how safe Bangkok feels as a foreign resident. Compared to Detroit, New Orleans, or Washington D.C., Bangkok feels to me like a walled garden of safety, where at worst one may encounter a pickpocket or purse snatcher. I know plenty other foreign residents who would agree. My wife, back in grad school, once encountered up-close an armed robber being chased on foot by police right through a student neighborhood in Ohio!
But the statistics don’t lie. Last I heard, Thailand was hovering somewhere between Colombia and South Africa in the murder rate rankings.
More Japanese tales
More malaria tales.
Here is a paragraph from Michael Adas’ 1974 book, The Burma Delta: Economic Development and Social Change on an Asian Rice Frontier, 1852-1941: “Malaria was (and is) endemic to most of the Delta. It was particularly intense in those areas which were being settled for the first time. S. Grantham reported in 1920 that colonies attempting to open jungle tracts in the Myaungmya district were debilitated and even wiped out by malaria epidemics. He observed that after an area had been worked for some time that death rate and general malaise of the population declined. He attributed this drop to immunities developed by settlers who survived and a decrease in the number of mosquito vectors. More recent research bears out Grantham’s observations. It has shown that the Anopheles hyrcanus mosquito, which is the principle vector in Lower Burma, becomes extremely prolific in areas where forest has recently been cleared. If such areas are in tropical climates, the species has been known to produce serious malaria. Officers in many other Delta districts in the British period concurred with Grantham’s claim that malaria conditions had greatly hindered efforts to bring fertile tracts into production. In Konbaung times there was little incentive for settlers to move into virgin areas where malaria was likely to be endemic. Both migrants from the Dry Zone and the indigenous inhabitants tended to cluster in areas which had long been occupied. Thus, malaria was not only a major obstacle to agrarian development, it was also a prime determinant of settlements on the Delta frontier.” (p. 24-25)
Most of the 180,000 Japanese casualties in Burma during WWII died not in combat but from malaria, dysentery and starvation. Quinine was apparently not particularly effective, and the Japanese did not have a sufficient supply of it to begin with… Survivors have written horrifying stories of how they walked across Burma desperate for food and fighting disease.
Hla Oo, you asked if Yoshida’s writing is available in English. Unfortunately it is not. I very much hope that it will be.
PAD’s book of the week
This website ‘s very fake. Don’t read
Time to go home
Reg: ref “but is it okay to not be pro-Thaksin and to be critical of PAD? ” I think its ok, and my ok was on the basis ‘that its a free world’. However, in being so, it plays into Thaksinism’s Hands.
Let me explain my view.
Each party having its views on what is the Solution – what is the way out [the Question, with an adjective that has a declining passing score to assist answering it].
1) PADite “Yellows”: has its clear view of solution (Down with Thaksinism! Fix the system so that only persons understanding True Democracy Vote!)
2) Thaksinite “Reds”: has its clear view of solution (We have the votes! We’re Legal! Let us Rule (and do other interesting things) in Peace! Free the “You Know Who”)
3) Neutral “Whites”: Others. Probably not siding with 1) or 2), but either with a way out or without a way out.
a) “Without A Way Out” (without a Stance)- people who say “whatever you guys are fighting for, don’t block the streets. Just shake hands and love one another!”. I describe these persons as politically disinterested, maybe like Mr. SornRam initially. IMHO: This is not a solution, since it is as good as saying “hey Ms. Raped, what’s the fuss? Just kiss and make up with your Raper, don’t take him jail!”. This group plays well to the Government and Thaksinites — just what Thaksin needs -people who are indifferent to politics.
b) “With A Way Out” (with a Stance) – coming to why a few of us are interested in your solution “It involves listening to the electorate, following the law (whether it suits or not and subjecting everyone equally to the law) and working for change peacefully, through reasoned and reasonable civic action and through parliament and the ballot box” in #50 , which however good the principle is, does much favor tothe Thaksinites in 2) above! (ref Sidh’s item). And that is why we continue to probe further, “Thats ok in principle, but how do you get Thaksin to comply to such since he’s been the guy breaking it left and right?”. For which you answered “its not-a-smart question, why don’t the PADs comply first?”, for which we respond “Don’t you remember, Thaksin started it first?”. And then there is no further answer from you but just not wanting to answer the question at all on grounds of not-worthy-of-an-answer.
You can see in any case, the “Whites”, whether they are idealistic/goodwilling or just politically ignorant, unfortunately play into Thaksinite’s hands. – whether anyone wants to answer The Question or Not. If you can maintain that you’re a “White” party, taking the “Ideal Democracy” Route, whether you like it or not it plays into Thaksin’s hands.
[Unless the Courts can stand up against Thaksinism. 2 million THB pastry bribe case is a first test, but it will take alot of resolve to resist 50 million, 100 million, or a billion baht – which for I think Thaksin is just spare change. It is the test of integrity of the Judicial which will either pave way for eventual closure of PAD and advancement of Thai Democracy.]
CONCLUSION: So if you can explain what kind of “White” you are, whether you intentionally want it to play into the hands of Thaksin, or you just want an Idealistic Democracy– how you suggest we get there, is up to you to say,which if you want to clarify, you can answer “The Question”. But that’s up to you.
IMHO.
“Let the electorate judge”
I am very relieved about the new blood in this thread, and have learned something from it. I still think that it is useful to see the present social conflict in Thailand as beeing quite similar to that which Europe went through in the past. We in the West are just a bit further down the road from feudalism (the various systems of patronage) to the rule of law. At present Thailand is bogged down in patronage. A new, more thoroughly capitalist-based patronage system has emerged to challenge the old royalist-militarist-capitalist one. It was clear in Thaksin’s time that the new system he headed was corrupt. It is clear now that his enemies are equally corrupt, and what is worse, violent. It is sad to see a culture which has so much going for it in such deep trouble. History shows that there is no guarantee that all militarists will always support the monarchy. A split is possible and it would be a disaster. The more the militarists bungle their relations with their own people, with their neighbours, and even, would you believe, with the UN, the greater the chance of some new group of generals forming, and attempting to shoot their way into power.
The rule of law offers a long-term way out, but it is something that is inculcated in the people from childhood, not imposed by decree or threat of punishment. The laws are strongest when people are happy to live by them. With luck, the transition from patronage/feudalism to the rule of law can be relatively painless. The Scandinavian constitutional monarchies are good examples. In some future Thai constitutional monarchy, the king could be the doyen of a reformed Thai culture, rather than the head of a system of patronage. The arts in Thailand are amongst the world’s treasures, and the job is an important one.
An essay on “the dismal state of Thai education”
Kom Ment, that is terribly ignorant of you to compare Mugabe’s stranglehold on power to Thai education and even more ignorant to say that opposition to Zanu has been forever muzzled.
Papaya in Thailand has a depressingly dismal blog. So I suppose it’s only fair that he call the Thai education system dismal. Maybe if what Thais needed for survival, socially or physically changed, then you’d have an educational system that would adapt to those new circumstances.
Most of the comments I’ve read thus far seem to be like steam rising after a pressure valve of depression was released. Most are simply propagating a negative relativism, where ones values are superior because one believes they have been through a superior system. Good for them!
An essay on “the dismal state of Thai education”
Kom Ment,
I was reflecting on the state of the political system in comparison to the educational system. Can those in the know shed light on how the educational system is essentially governed?
It would seem like the educational system is an entirely top-down, demagogic bureaucracy that hinders its development. Where do the parents get a say, besides being able to “offer” money to schools? Why are Thailand’s good and bright not allowed to shine? Inherently, it seems like the educational system’s regulatory functions need to be separate from the bureaucracy, similar to how the Universities are being offload from the state’s stranglehold. As perhaps the telecommunications industry was/is/will be separated (somewhat miserably) from the state: policy, strategy, direction, and dare I say innovation be handed over to the Ministry while the quality control and regulation handed over to a Regulator, especially over the private schools?
Just like how there are things the Thai state is doing right, there are things Thai education is doing right. Thai researchers are actually advancing humanity’s knowledge forward, but sadly they are few and un-influential.
Time to go home
kuson: but is it okay to not be pro-Thaksin and to be critical of PAD? On the “unintelligent” question – maybe “infantile” is a better word – that was directed at Sidh (#60).
“Let the electorate judge”
Ref #28, Reg, My clarification: I agree, it wouldn’t be correct and I don’t remember where I explicitly stated that, so I think we’re ok
An essay on “the dismal state of Thai education”
This might be a good op to suggest the following that vested interests like acharn.com will never countenance. (We can’t upset the sponsors, can we?) A great deal of the TEFL/TESOL industry is essentially a scam. Perhaps not quite in the same league as people trafficking and international drug-running, but still intentionally & cynically exploitative.
An essay on “the dismal state of Thai education”
There is also a small segment of the farang community that is deeply committed to Thailand and wishes it to succeed at every level. “Frankly, I think the author is of the former group rather than the later. Who would in their right mind stay in a profession for 9 years where there is clearly no satisfaction except to feel intellectually and morally superior to your students and colleagues?
Lastly, the essay in itself displayed all the characteristics of what he was criticizing: xenophobia, racism and farang exceptionalism, poorly constructed English, shoddy documentation, and superficiality over substance.”
Where exactly does that “deep commitment” lead? Booted out when you can no longer read the teaching materials to face a life back home in an OAP home talking to people who also have no respect for expat teachers.
Is it a treatise? It seems to me you have your own elitist notions of ‘Trailer Trash’.
An essay on “the dismal state of Thai education”
This is the best thread here in a long time, because it covers an issue which has a direct impact on many of the posters. Forget all this PAD said, Samak said cobblers! Thailand’s political system is an unreformable basket-case that is not really worth commenting on because nothing we say will ever have any impact. Trouble is, the same is almost certainly true of the Ed system too.
Would Mugabe have ever compromised if his opposers had continued to smile and say nothing?