A convincing (and entertaining) education metaphor – but I still think the main problem is with the “educated gullibles” such as your “Rectangular Head Teacher”, his gang AND his LIKE-MINDED opponents. The “Academic Headmaster” is coming down hard with the rules on the “educated gullibles”. If he/she continues this practice into the future post-“Rectangular Head Teacher”, without fear or favor, then at least half the problem is addressed.
If election fraud is severely punished and thus vote-buying, influence-peddling is curtailed – then maybe, just maybe, the context for politicians that GENUINELY RESPECTS his/her electorate and not see them as poor, unimportant clients to rip-off as practiced (to put it mildly), will arise.
The next half is a much more complex process (almost idealistic) of decentralized democracy from the ground up – where each voter, regardless of urban or rural, sees that his/her vote can effect change at a local community level (and eventually, by extension, at a provincial and national levels)… Here we also need another set of “uneducated gullibles”, the bureaucrats, to become versed in the finer points of the 1997/2007 constitutions on individual/community rights and sincere in its application.
If the PAD focus on those “educated gullibles” that manipulate and exploit the laws usually against weaker members of society, then I support them. However, if they want to curtail the democratic rights of those weaker members, then I think it is not the right way to go. As a class-conscious society, I am aware that can be quite hard. It seemed to be a challenge in the history of mature democracies – hence the rise of labour parties and, in the more extremity, socialist/communist parties.
Can Thai society find that less violent and equitable ways towards democracy? It is written in the constitution, the challenge remains on how to get there (and not to change the constitution again to serve another agenda).
I hope you’ll put up the whole book, it looks like a very interesting read to get more background on the mindset in the wake of the Thai-French war, the annexation of the “lost territories”, it loss again and the near-loss of independence after World War II.
Calm down people. We are all only describing the phenomenon of ‘development’ in Thailand – a country somewhere on the spectrum between a rural, agricultural society (Thailand in the 1950s) and one that is urban, post-industrialized (Thailand in 20xx?).
Similarly, on politics, we are describing a society that is somewhere on the spectrum between a monarchy (Thailand pre-1932) and one that is a liberal democracy (Thailand in 20xx?).
Most of us are doing so from the vantage points of either living or have lived in societies that is already classified as “developed” and a liberal democracy. We assume that we have all the answers and prescriptions. But we could just be dead wrong – if Climate Change extremities kicks in (e.g. already forcing Australians to be “sufficient” with their water use). Now we are telling China and India to “slow down mate” and stop polluting – which is, in essence telling millions to “stay poor longer”.
It must be one of the Karen soldiers’ denigrating jokes towards their arch-enemy. I don’t know much about the situations in Karen State though, but in Kachin Land the malaria related causalities was very low among the Burmese soldiers while I was there in the early seventies.
I was right there in the deep jungle beyond Chibwe and then Htawgaw hills. We slept tough in the open and drank the water from the mosquito infested creeks and I never have had malaria. But the frightening side effect was the liver-cirrhosis I have now from drinking the army issued rum for nearly two years almost every night.
I think quinine is obsolete as a prophylactic against malaria. Doxycycline 100 mg daily in my experience is ideal for tourists and the rest since it is an antibiotic that covers other infections including bowel infections too.
Reg, if it is not all about Thaksin, do you agree with nganadeeleg’s number that current Thai politics is 95% about Thaksin?
My number is lower – at 75% about PMThaksin as I do agree with R.N.England’s statement:
“If Thaksin were run over by a bus tomorrow, the factional struggle would continue…”
But ofcourse, not the R.N.England’s far from accurate, simplistic/reductivist “militarist-royalist” Vs “capitalist gangsters” factions (for there are capitalist gangsters that are militarist-royalists and vice-versa). That is an invention here in NM like classic “poppycocks” such as the notion of “networked monarchists”.
“Thais are amongst the world’s most charming and generous people” foriegners like Mr.England like to say, except many of these charming and generous people are also “royal arse-polishers” according to Reg, which ‘we foriegners’ dislike and prescribe that Thai society should be rid off (then what? We are perfect?). This, ofcourse, is an extremely superficial, unempathic understanding of Thai society. Many articulate Thais and foriegners have been attempting to explain this from a local’s mindset (with Andrew trying to “interpret” for the absent rural dwellers) – but this would never get through. Hence, their opinions on Thai affairs (such as Andrew’s unfortunate piece here) are often skewed misrepresentations.
But you see, many of us “charming and generous, royal arse-polishers” are empathic of your inability to understand and, knowing full well what you think about an institution many of us deeply respect, we’ll continue to welcome you with open arms and count you as friends… Such is life.
But Burmese soldiers seem to be immune from that scourge of the jungle.
I’ve heard it said that Burmese soldiers operating in Karen State have long been taken out in disproportionatley large numbers due to malaria. Those operating in the area thus long ago took to calling the local mosquitoes “The Karen Air Force.”
Reg, it’s not a “dumb question”. Please answer it as a “Thaksinite” if you wish – we know you don’t speak for them. Let’s have some transparency here – Kuson has admitted to attending a PAD rally and listening to ASTV, I’ve admitted an “injustice” to you for not mentioning DADD’s important protest. Maybe if you were there with Jakrapob and co – or you support their actions, let’s here your reasons for it, your side of the story:
“nganadeleleg: No need to answer this question unless kuson can get the PADites to do the same thing. He doesn’t speak for them and I certainly do not speak for any Thaksinites. So it is a dumb question, made for rhetorical purposes.”
Reg says: “No need to answer this question unless kuson can get the PADites to do the same thing. He doesn’t speak for them and I certainly do not speak for any Thaksinites. So it is a dumb question, made for rhetorical purposes.” And pulls up an example of PAD breaking the law.
Reg, lets put it this way: IMHO, I do not think its a dumb question, but rather, Its just a question for which you simply don’t have an answer ( and many people in this Forum probably don’t).
Don’t forget who started this out. It started with Thaksin and his self-serving policies and laws and his most valuable asset: Control of Media (Dictatorship in essence). Out of whatever interest and beginnings, PAD started to get “The Truth” out, and now vowing to uproot the whole corrupt Thaksinism (Lord of the Rings, The Republic of Mordor).
My answer: my thoughts are that PAD (unfortunately) is in the best position to do it, even though the look like vigilantes because the sheriff(s) ain’t working. And PAD is being shot down in this Forum like a “Spitfire among New Mandala’s Flakpanzers” which I do not think they deserve this.
That is why my question : “Does anyone have a better way to get Thaksin to comply to rules of Law first, in order for PAD not to exist?”
For me now that PAD have done part of their job, the Courts if they uphold their principles, should rid Thaksinism hopefully for good, and then no one has to answer this question.
Chang Noi (TN 21 Jul.) has this to say on the PAD: “In short, PAD is an anti-democratic movement, supported by high investment and shadowy protection, that exploits the fears of the privileged and a deliberately anti-rational nationalism, and flirts with militarism and violence. Is PAD a bulldog, let out on a leash for a specific purpose, that will be chained up when the threat from thieves has passed? Or is it another step in the destruction of democracy begun by Thaksin, continued by the coup-makers, and now plunging ahead on the momentum?”
nganadeleleg: No need to answer this question unless kuson can get the PADites to do the same thing. He doesn’t speak for them and I certainly do not speak for any Thaksinites. So it is a dumb question, made for rhetorical purposes.
But here is one PAD response to the rule of law, when they do speak for themselves:
PAD plans campaign to oust judges
Bangkok Post, 9 July 2008
The People’s Alliance for Democracy (PAD) plans to gather 20,000 voters’ signatures to kick-start impeachment proceedings against two Civil Court judges for ordering the alliance to stop blocking Rama V and Phitsanulok roads during school hours. Maj-Gen Chamlong Srimuang said all five PAD leaders agreed with the move. At least 20,000 signatures would be submitted to the Senate to support the impeachment bid.
”The court’s verdict forced us to relocate our demonstration, causing difficulties, despite the fact we are here to perform our duty to the country. We caused no damage. We appeal for justice as over the past weeks we strictly complied with the court order. The main point is that the Civil Court’s order is in breach of Article 63 of the constitution,” said Maj-Gen Chamlong.
On Monday night PAD supporters retreated to their former rally site at the Makkhawan Rangsan bridge after the court ordered they must stop blocking traffic on Rama V and Phitsanulok roads from 5am to 6pm on weekdays.
Teachers and parents from Rajavinit school who had earlier obtained a court injunction against the PAD rally during school hours, on Monday asked the judges to enforce it. They said the PAD only partially opened the roads.
Noppadol Laochot, director of Wat Makutkasattiyaram school near the PAD’s rally site, said the school would not file a suit against the alliance as the school had not been affected by the rally.
Buses could pass the school and the PAD’s loudspeakers had not disturbed students, said the school director, who yesterday went to view the PAD’s gathering at Makkhawan Rangsan bridge
Lucky not the whole Siam was wiped out. Even with the present territory, no justice has been done to all the regions of the country. It is usually Bangkok that is the most pampered. Maybe it was a blessing in disguise that Thailand (or is it Siam?) lost those territories. Just think how absurd it would be for Thailand to be an imperial state!
As long as the villages are “sufficient”, they will be poor. As long as they are poor, they will migrate to the cities and work cheaply. As long as they work cheaply, Bangkok’s elite can continue to make money from export-led development, and publish newspaper articles advocating sufficiency.
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Time to go home
Kuson #47:
A convincing (and entertaining) education metaphor – but I still think the main problem is with the “educated gullibles” such as your “Rectangular Head Teacher”, his gang AND his LIKE-MINDED opponents. The “Academic Headmaster” is coming down hard with the rules on the “educated gullibles”. If he/she continues this practice into the future post-“Rectangular Head Teacher”, without fear or favor, then at least half the problem is addressed.
If election fraud is severely punished and thus vote-buying, influence-peddling is curtailed – then maybe, just maybe, the context for politicians that GENUINELY RESPECTS his/her electorate and not see them as poor, unimportant clients to rip-off as practiced (to put it mildly), will arise.
The next half is a much more complex process (almost idealistic) of decentralized democracy from the ground up – where each voter, regardless of urban or rural, sees that his/her vote can effect change at a local community level (and eventually, by extension, at a provincial and national levels)… Here we also need another set of “uneducated gullibles”, the bureaucrats, to become versed in the finer points of the 1997/2007 constitutions on individual/community rights and sincere in its application.
If the PAD focus on those “educated gullibles” that manipulate and exploit the laws usually against weaker members of society, then I support them. However, if they want to curtail the democratic rights of those weaker members, then I think it is not the right way to go. As a class-conscious society, I am aware that can be quite hard. It seemed to be a challenge in the history of mature democracies – hence the rise of labour parties and, in the more extremity, socialist/communist parties.
Can Thai society find that less violent and equitable ways towards democracy? It is written in the constitution, the challenge remains on how to get there (and not to change the constitution again to serve another agenda).
PAD’s book of the week
I hope you’ll put up the whole book, it looks like a very interesting read to get more background on the mindset in the wake of the Thai-French war, the annexation of the “lost territories”, it loss again and the near-loss of independence after World War II.
Have you had enough of sufficiency?
Calm down people. We are all only describing the phenomenon of ‘development’ in Thailand – a country somewhere on the spectrum between a rural, agricultural society (Thailand in the 1950s) and one that is urban, post-industrialized (Thailand in 20xx?).
Similarly, on politics, we are describing a society that is somewhere on the spectrum between a monarchy (Thailand pre-1932) and one that is a liberal democracy (Thailand in 20xx?).
Most of us are doing so from the vantage points of either living or have lived in societies that is already classified as “developed” and a liberal democracy. We assume that we have all the answers and prescriptions. But we could just be dead wrong – if Climate Change extremities kicks in (e.g. already forcing Australians to be “sufficient” with their water use). Now we are telling China and India to “slow down mate” and stop polluting – which is, in essence telling millions to “stay poor longer”.
Whatever we say here, we say as total hypocrites…
More Japanese tales
It must be one of the Karen soldiers’ denigrating jokes towards their arch-enemy. I don’t know much about the situations in Karen State though, but in Kachin Land the malaria related causalities was very low among the Burmese soldiers while I was there in the early seventies.
I was right there in the deep jungle beyond Chibwe and then Htawgaw hills. We slept tough in the open and drank the water from the mosquito infested creeks and I never have had malaria. But the frightening side effect was the liver-cirrhosis I have now from drinking the army issued rum for nearly two years almost every night.
More Japanese tales
I think quinine is obsolete as a prophylactic against malaria. Doxycycline 100 mg daily in my experience is ideal for tourists and the rest since it is an antibiotic that covers other infections including bowel infections too.
“Let the electorate judge”
Reg, if it is not all about Thaksin, do you agree with nganadeeleg’s number that current Thai politics is 95% about Thaksin?
My number is lower – at 75% about PMThaksin as I do agree with R.N.England’s statement:
“If Thaksin were run over by a bus tomorrow, the factional struggle would continue…”
But ofcourse, not the R.N.England’s far from accurate, simplistic/reductivist “militarist-royalist” Vs “capitalist gangsters” factions (for there are capitalist gangsters that are militarist-royalists and vice-versa). That is an invention here in NM like classic “poppycocks” such as the notion of “networked monarchists”.
“Thais are amongst the world’s most charming and generous people” foriegners like Mr.England like to say, except many of these charming and generous people are also “royal arse-polishers” according to Reg, which ‘we foriegners’ dislike and prescribe that Thai society should be rid off (then what? We are perfect?). This, ofcourse, is an extremely superficial, unempathic understanding of Thai society. Many articulate Thais and foriegners have been attempting to explain this from a local’s mindset (with Andrew trying to “interpret” for the absent rural dwellers) – but this would never get through. Hence, their opinions on Thai affairs (such as Andrew’s unfortunate piece here) are often skewed misrepresentations.
But you see, many of us “charming and generous, royal arse-polishers” are empathic of your inability to understand and, knowing full well what you think about an institution many of us deeply respect, we’ll continue to welcome you with open arms and count you as friends… Such is life.
More Japanese tales
I’ve heard it said that Burmese soldiers operating in Karen State have long been taken out in disproportionatley large numbers due to malaria. Those operating in the area thus long ago took to calling the local mosquitoes “The Karen Air Force.”
Time to go home
Srithanonchai#48:
“Sidh: Now, we have to be really greatful for the coup-group to have bowed out after a while, right?”
No need to feel grateful – but you can if you want…
Time to go home
Reg, it’s not a “dumb question”. Please answer it as a “Thaksinite” if you wish – we know you don’t speak for them. Let’s have some transparency here – Kuson has admitted to attending a PAD rally and listening to ASTV, I’ve admitted an “injustice” to you for not mentioning DADD’s important protest. Maybe if you were there with Jakrapob and co – or you support their actions, let’s here your reasons for it, your side of the story:
“nganadeleleg: No need to answer this question unless kuson can get the PADites to do the same thing. He doesn’t speak for them and I certainly do not speak for any Thaksinites. So it is a dumb question, made for rhetorical purposes.”
Time to go home
Reg says: “No need to answer this question unless kuson can get the PADites to do the same thing. He doesn’t speak for them and I certainly do not speak for any Thaksinites. So it is a dumb question, made for rhetorical purposes.” And pulls up an example of PAD breaking the law.
Reg, lets put it this way: IMHO, I do not think its a dumb question, but rather, Its just a question for which you simply don’t have an answer ( and many people in this Forum probably don’t).
Don’t forget who started this out. It started with Thaksin and his self-serving policies and laws and his most valuable asset: Control of Media (Dictatorship in essence). Out of whatever interest and beginnings, PAD started to get “The Truth” out, and now vowing to uproot the whole corrupt Thaksinism (Lord of the Rings, The Republic of Mordor).
My answer: my thoughts are that PAD (unfortunately) is in the best position to do it, even though the look like vigilantes because the sheriff(s) ain’t working. And PAD is being shot down in this Forum like a “Spitfire among New Mandala’s Flakpanzers” which I do not think they deserve this.
That is why my question : “Does anyone have a better way to get Thaksin to comply to rules of Law first, in order for PAD not to exist?”
For me now that PAD have done part of their job, the Courts if they uphold their principles, should rid Thaksinism hopefully for good, and then no one has to answer this question.
Khmer Rouge shock troops?
This is a good summary of the events at Preah Vihear.
http://nyherald.com/preah-vihear-troops/306.html
PAD’s book of the week
Chang Noi (TN 21 Jul.) has this to say on the PAD: “In short, PAD is an anti-democratic movement, supported by high investment and shadowy protection, that exploits the fears of the privileged and a deliberately anti-rational nationalism, and flirts with militarism and violence. Is PAD a bulldog, let out on a leash for a specific purpose, that will be chained up when the threat from thieves has passed? Or is it another step in the destruction of democracy begun by Thaksin, continued by the coup-makers, and now plunging ahead on the momentum?”
Wow!
PAD’s book of the week
Any chance you can put up the whole thing?
Time to go home
nganadeleleg: No need to answer this question unless kuson can get the PADites to do the same thing. He doesn’t speak for them and I certainly do not speak for any Thaksinites. So it is a dumb question, made for rhetorical purposes.
But here is one PAD response to the rule of law, when they do speak for themselves:
PAD plans campaign to oust judges
Bangkok Post, 9 July 2008
The People’s Alliance for Democracy (PAD) plans to gather 20,000 voters’ signatures to kick-start impeachment proceedings against two Civil Court judges for ordering the alliance to stop blocking Rama V and Phitsanulok roads during school hours. Maj-Gen Chamlong Srimuang said all five PAD leaders agreed with the move. At least 20,000 signatures would be submitted to the Senate to support the impeachment bid.
”The court’s verdict forced us to relocate our demonstration, causing difficulties, despite the fact we are here to perform our duty to the country. We caused no damage. We appeal for justice as over the past weeks we strictly complied with the court order. The main point is that the Civil Court’s order is in breach of Article 63 of the constitution,” said Maj-Gen Chamlong.
On Monday night PAD supporters retreated to their former rally site at the Makkhawan Rangsan bridge after the court ordered they must stop blocking traffic on Rama V and Phitsanulok roads from 5am to 6pm on weekdays.
Teachers and parents from Rajavinit school who had earlier obtained a court injunction against the PAD rally during school hours, on Monday asked the judges to enforce it. They said the PAD only partially opened the roads.
Noppadol Laochot, director of Wat Makutkasattiyaram school near the PAD’s rally site, said the school would not file a suit against the alliance as the school had not been affected by the rally.
Buses could pass the school and the PAD’s loudspeakers had not disturbed students, said the school director, who yesterday went to view the PAD’s gathering at Makkhawan Rangsan bridge
PAD’s book of the week
Lucky not the whole Siam was wiped out. Even with the present territory, no justice has been done to all the regions of the country. It is usually Bangkok that is the most pampered. Maybe it was a blessing in disguise that Thailand (or is it Siam?) lost those territories. Just think how absurd it would be for Thailand to be an imperial state!
Have you had enough of sufficiency?
As long as the villages are “sufficient”, they will be poor. As long as they are poor, they will migrate to the cities and work cheaply. As long as they work cheaply, Bangkok’s elite can continue to make money from export-led development, and publish newspaper articles advocating sufficiency.
“Starbucked to death” and other one-liners
God, what a snob!
Crown Prince scouting European airports
That’s what I mean by “nature”. Que sera sera!
PAD’s book of the week
Nationalism is a virus better to eradicate before it spreads….
“Let the electorate judge”
It’s maybe not all about Thaksin, but 95% of it is about that one man (and fears about a new dynasty being created).