fall: “But after government coalition form without Democrat. Those people took off their (MP) jacket and put on so-called “people’s democracy” and go up stage again. That is not democracy.”
Well, not going to debate with you what exactly democracy is, since there is only a family of interrelated definitions, or what a constitution is, but one thing is clear, both have checks and balances, both can be manipulated by big money business interests, and both are extremely overdetermined concepts.
For what it is worth, I have spoken to some folks who have assisted and helped train KNLA forces over the years who have seen the recent Rambo film. All agreed that as cinema, the movie, to be polite to Mr Stallone, was lacking. But as to the depiction of the violence, contrary to what Mr. McCartan states in his review, the only exaggeration they noted was the depiction of the use of a flame thrower.
Despite the rather poor cinematic reviews of the film, my local activists with the US Campaign for Burma were quite pleased to get this exposure for the situation in Burma. Most Americans have absolutely no clue about the human rights abuses perpetrated by the Burmese government, so the release of the movie was seen as a very positive event.
I must confess that I have not seen the film although I have been told that a friend of mine is interviewed in the ‘bonus features’ portion of the DVD. So now I too might finally be only six degrees from Kevin Bacon.
22 June 2008
I am glad YOU raised that issue.
From 1999 to 2006+, I was involved as a local media (English language newspaper) owner and non-official reporter in Korat/NE Thailand. During these 80+ months of close coverage of all kinds of news, events and personalities, I met and spoke with dozens of politicians, hundreds of voters, hundreds of government officials and plain Janes and plain Joes throughout the region. I was there when hundreds of villagers waited for two hours in the hot son for Suwat Liptapanlop and his entourage to arrive but was late because Suwat doesn’t really care to be on time much – any any Thai politician unless is to self-aggrandize. In all this time, I found myself on first-name basis with some, like Dr. Kraisak whom I feel honored to have met, and Khun Suwat and Korn whom I do not feel so honored to have met.
When I speak of crooks and bought votes, it’s not from standing idly by reading about it or hearing it form someone else I agree with or from someone opposed to me. It’s from direct experience. Ever since my original Peace Corps experience here in Buriram province from 1966-67 it is clear that the poor are still getting the short end of the stick and that feudalism is still very much n evidence. I am not a socialist or leftist or right-wing sympathizer, but speak from what has become a sharpened eye and ear – not to hint, Heaven forbid! that any of you are any less attuned to the truth and what’s right or wrong.
I have seen many, many instances on village, amphoe and province level, and national, where the public in general and voters in particular have been intentionally misled and then left holding the empty bucket while politicians get off the hook. Speaking of which, check my lese majeste page now on http://www.thekoratpost.com to see a few things that need to be reviewed from time to time regarding what His Majesty states he feels about people who lie and oppress.
Not a digression I hope but a reminder that the problem here in Thailand by its nature is not much different from problems in other countries as concerns relationships between politicians and voters, but the depth of depravity and suppression here in Thailand is worthy of its own award.
For the sake of the discussion, another academic, David Steinberg, has this to say on foreign military intervention/assistance to ethnic armed opposition groups.
“Some minority groups have even appealed at various times for foreign military assistance. Yet other nations should treat this issue with extreme caution, for if there is one approach that would unite the peoples of Myanmar in a close authoritarian bond and justify this continuation of the garrison state it would be the threat or perceived threat of physical foreign intervention into Burmese affairs. There is always the danger, as we have seen in typical garrison state situations, that a regime may invoke, erroneously believe, or create the impression of external threats justifying continuity of power and repression in the interests of the national security–foreign powers aligning with minorities or opposition elements. This has happened in the past in Myanmar, and care should be taken by those abroad that no impetus be given for its resuscitation.”
From David I. Steinberg, Turmoil in Burma: Contested Legitimacies in Myanmar, 2006.
Frank, its good to see the old “voters are stupid country bumpkins” argument featuring again on New Mandala. But why not go and talk to some of them and see what they have to say. Those who do usually come back with a rather different perspective.
David, thanks for your post. I would really like to know if you have seen the Junta use foreigners fighting with liberation groups as propaganda. My idea is that foreigners fighting would confirm the ‘Burman King’s’ attitude, or at least the attitude they project to citizens, towards liberation groups being the products of foreign beliefs, and that therefore these groups are not sufficiently nationalistic to be negotiated with. Yes, of course it is the Junta who prolongs everything – all I am trying to do is see how the Junta prolongs it.
I don’t know who was watching TV yesterday, but a Thai PAD supporter had been stopped by the police and after a rough interview, etc., got his arm broken. This was in the vicinity, I believe, where suddenly spikes police used, and nails, littered the highway. Police – “We don’t know anything about this.”
This so-called elected government you speak of…
Once again I would like to remind those that defend what passes off as free elections here in Thailand are also defending mass hypnosis, mass ignorance and mass ‘lemmingism.’ The wonderful goal everyone aspires to is “Sing off the same sheet” and brag about democratic elections. To me ‘free’ does not mean free to bribe, free to buy, free to connive, free to choose MPs and the Council of Ministers in the next government if your name is Thaksin and you have been ordered to stay out of politics. Yet, this is what happened. His hand was in the pie all the time. So as to free elections, not really. Of course many people did go out and vote for their hero’s appointees, but wasn’t that same group responsible for so much corruption and even mass media interference when in power?
Informed consent is the key to free elections. If the governed are foolish, ignorant, deprived, scared, intimidated, bought off and kept ignorant, can their so-called choices be said to be the result of free elections? Let’s not mince words here, or beg altruistic consideration of a process undergoing change. These are not free elections in the sense of being free to make an informed choice.
The moron [word choice by Thai academic, not me] who is now prime minister is a case in point. He would not even get a job mowing my lawn. Buffoon? As one person asked, why insult buffoons?
Samak et. al are nominees of Thaksin Shinawatra. They were from the moment they all met and agreed to this and that, and got the final OK from the man himself. So if these are free elections, God help Thailand.
Like I said before, Thailand needs thousands of PAD’s and PAD-types, not acting exactly as the PAD, but people and groups who dig up details and expose them to the public at large. People who won’t take another false promise for fact, people who are willing to take time off from work and families to show support for a good cause. Of course, because of the Thai sociopolitical infrastructure Sondhi has used the monarchy and nationalism to vanguard much of his movement. Just as one successive Thai government after another has done exactly the same thing, whether so-called elected or military junta. Everyone does it, everyone has abused the practice, and selecting PAD as worthy of criticism because it is doing the same thing as everyone else is not logical. Condemn one, condemn all.
David Everett,
My email address appears below. I would like to have an offline discussion with you if at all possible.
Charles Foster [email protected]
I think some people have their heads shoved up their backsides when they comment that films like Rambo 4 and foreign military assistance to the KNLA help prolonge the internal repression in Burma. I am sorry for the strong language, but it makes me physically sick when I hear comments like this. I don’t watch Rambo movies or war flicks for that matter. I have seen enough dead people for real to haunt me for the rest of my life, especially in Burma. Maybe people have been misquoted regarding the prolonging of the conflict in this manner. But when I hear that I know they are either academics, who live in another world, or complete nut cases. If you study the psych of the Burman military elite, and the tatmadaw’s general philosophy, you will understand why comments like this are completely wrong. The military leaders and their troops, on a whole, see themselves as the saviours of the nation, they believe in what they are doing, that is the irony of the whole situation. The military opens the way for social and political advancement and gives many soldiers and their families access to education, rations, medical attention, housing and safety. It also gives people a job. They view all foreigners as oppressors intent on destabalising the country and harp back to the days of when the British deposed the last Burman Royal family in the 1800s during the three Anglo/Burman wars. The junta view themselves as the returning Burman kings. They will never bring peace to the country. AND, Burma was never a united country in the first place. The ethnic minorities in the hills were never under Burman rule, they weren’t even part of the Burman Empire. The British drew the present map of Burma, as they did in the Middle East, and look what is happening there now. I would dearly love peace to come to Burma, for everybody there. But it ain’t gunna happen with the military in charge. If people don’t resist, change will never come. Get real people, nice to have an opinion and hug a tree, but it isn’t an informed one, and whilst you are hugging it, make sure it isn’t in Burma or you will most probably get a bayoned in the back and be pinned to the tree for good.
After 2006 PAD protest, those who go up the stage compete under Democrat banner and many won an MP. But after government coalition form without Democrat. Those people took off their (MP) jacket and put on so-called “people’s democracy” and go up stage again. That is not democracy.
– translate and reword from government deputy spokeman, TV interview.
Ngana Daen: “On face value, your quote sounds good, but don’t forget why they are protesting, and would they be protesting if the government had acted differently?”
Yep, they are preventing designer constitutions tailored to certain business interests. They cannot not protest. Furthermore, the protesters are part of a delicate equilibrium between Samak, the military, Thaksin, the Democrat opposition, members of the PPP, so His Majesty the King’s words seem to favour no one but encourage Samak, a little ambiguous so as not to favour anyone, neutral, the most important thing: non-violence [Pali: ahimsa], or at least that’s the way I read it. These are not the violent riots you normally see on TV in other countries.
Apparently there is no point in attempting to enlighten people with closed minds amd no interest in learning if this involves questioning their own prejudiced views. In the case of Mr. Horn, I think his explosive words reflect well his character and behavior, which is why he left Burma abruptly and under protest, a fact which he still seems to be denying many years later. I guess we just have to accept the fact that there are many different kinds of people in the world, from misguided Burmese gemerals to delusional bloggers. Education never ends, for those who are willing to learn, and for some others it is not a goal because they seem to know everthing from some intuitive source of information which noone else has ever seen or heard. There is not much one can do about the latter except to be amused by their rantings.
On face value, your quote sounds good, but don’t forget why they are protesting, and would they be protesting if the government had acted differently?
As for quotes, I’ve got a couple for starters:
“Be patient with the headache-inducing situation until July 2,” Thaksin told reporters Monday. “Mars moving close to Saturn causes the headache. When Mars leaves, the situation will ease.”
and
The general admitted Mr Thaksin wanted to invest in joint natural gas development, but said that the project required further talks.
”I insist we’ve never talked about a trade-off between Preah Vihear and natural gas with Mr Thaksin,” Gen Teah Banh said. ”How could we make such an agreement?”
Charles I love the smell of napalm in the morning F, academics with all their ideas and neurosis, shape the real world you live in. You wonder why academics favour appeasement and accommodation with evil? Is your real world full of Steven Segal action figures? What is evil exactly? I bet somewhere along the line an academic would have argued your real evil for you! Better look them up!! MMMMmm the smell of that fire is better than breakfast!
Facebook 
Twitter 
Soundcloud 
Youtube 
Rss
Leave the PA(S)D alone!
Frank seems to be the Western incarnation of Sondhi Limtongkul. Perhaps he is merely caricaturing and taking the piss, I can’t tell!
Thai politics quote of the day
Utter amazement.
Last posting actual made it to New Mandala.
Actual posting intercepted somewhere in cyberspace.
Thai politics quote of the day
Well, can’t even post with links removed from posting.
Must not be the spam filter that is preventing posting.
Perhaps some secret government blog blocker psych-war weapon.
Thai politics quote of the day
fall: “But after government coalition form without Democrat. Those people took off their (MP) jacket and put on so-called “people’s democracy” and go up stage again. That is not democracy.”
Well, not going to debate with you what exactly democracy is, since there is only a family of interrelated definitions, or what a constitution is, but one thing is clear, both have checks and balances, both can be manipulated by big money business interests, and both are extremely overdetermined concepts.
I guess, one can abandon oneself to the definitions of western intellectuals like, Clark medal winner economist Acemoglu, but as everyone knows, Thailand and Thais have never been colonized by the west, either politically or intellectually. Good on them.
Rambo and the real war in Burma
For what it is worth, I have spoken to some folks who have assisted and helped train KNLA forces over the years who have seen the recent Rambo film. All agreed that as cinema, the movie, to be polite to Mr Stallone, was lacking. But as to the depiction of the violence, contrary to what Mr. McCartan states in his review, the only exaggeration they noted was the depiction of the use of a flame thrower.
Despite the rather poor cinematic reviews of the film, my local activists with the US Campaign for Burma were quite pleased to get this exposure for the situation in Burma. Most Americans have absolutely no clue about the human rights abuses perpetrated by the Burmese government, so the release of the movie was seen as a very positive event.
I must confess that I have not seen the film although I have been told that a friend of mine is interviewed in the ‘bonus features’ portion of the DVD. So now I too might finally be only six degrees from Kevin Bacon.
Leave the PA(S)D alone!
22 June 2008
I am glad YOU raised that issue.
From 1999 to 2006+, I was involved as a local media (English language newspaper) owner and non-official reporter in Korat/NE Thailand. During these 80+ months of close coverage of all kinds of news, events and personalities, I met and spoke with dozens of politicians, hundreds of voters, hundreds of government officials and plain Janes and plain Joes throughout the region. I was there when hundreds of villagers waited for two hours in the hot son for Suwat Liptapanlop and his entourage to arrive but was late because Suwat doesn’t really care to be on time much – any any Thai politician unless is to self-aggrandize. In all this time, I found myself on first-name basis with some, like Dr. Kraisak whom I feel honored to have met, and Khun Suwat and Korn whom I do not feel so honored to have met.
When I speak of crooks and bought votes, it’s not from standing idly by reading about it or hearing it form someone else I agree with or from someone opposed to me. It’s from direct experience. Ever since my original Peace Corps experience here in Buriram province from 1966-67 it is clear that the poor are still getting the short end of the stick and that feudalism is still very much n evidence. I am not a socialist or leftist or right-wing sympathizer, but speak from what has become a sharpened eye and ear – not to hint, Heaven forbid! that any of you are any less attuned to the truth and what’s right or wrong.
I have seen many, many instances on village, amphoe and province level, and national, where the public in general and voters in particular have been intentionally misled and then left holding the empty bucket while politicians get off the hook. Speaking of which, check my lese majeste page now on http://www.thekoratpost.com to see a few things that need to be reviewed from time to time regarding what His Majesty states he feels about people who lie and oppress.
Not a digression I hope but a reminder that the problem here in Thailand by its nature is not much different from problems in other countries as concerns relationships between politicians and voters, but the depth of depravity and suppression here in Thailand is worthy of its own award.
Rambo and the real war in Burma
For the sake of the discussion, another academic, David Steinberg, has this to say on foreign military intervention/assistance to ethnic armed opposition groups.
From David I. Steinberg, Turmoil in Burma: Contested Legitimacies in Myanmar, 2006.
Leave the PA(S)D alone!
Frank, its good to see the old “voters are stupid country bumpkins” argument featuring again on New Mandala. But why not go and talk to some of them and see what they have to say. Those who do usually come back with a rather different perspective.
Rambo and the real war in Burma
David, thanks for your post. I would really like to know if you have seen the Junta use foreigners fighting with liberation groups as propaganda. My idea is that foreigners fighting would confirm the ‘Burman King’s’ attitude, or at least the attitude they project to citizens, towards liberation groups being the products of foreign beliefs, and that therefore these groups are not sufficiently nationalistic to be negotiated with. Yes, of course it is the Junta who prolongs everything – all I am trying to do is see how the Junta prolongs it.
Leave the PA(S)D alone!
22 June 2008
Thai language link to long writeup of Chakri Dynasty from beginning to current –
http://chakridynasty.googlepages.com/
I don’t know who was watching TV yesterday, but a Thai PAD supporter had been stopped by the police and after a rough interview, etc., got his arm broken. This was in the vicinity, I believe, where suddenly spikes police used, and nails, littered the highway. Police – “We don’t know anything about this.”
This so-called elected government you speak of…
Once again I would like to remind those that defend what passes off as free elections here in Thailand are also defending mass hypnosis, mass ignorance and mass ‘lemmingism.’ The wonderful goal everyone aspires to is “Sing off the same sheet” and brag about democratic elections. To me ‘free’ does not mean free to bribe, free to buy, free to connive, free to choose MPs and the Council of Ministers in the next government if your name is Thaksin and you have been ordered to stay out of politics. Yet, this is what happened. His hand was in the pie all the time. So as to free elections, not really. Of course many people did go out and vote for their hero’s appointees, but wasn’t that same group responsible for so much corruption and even mass media interference when in power?
Informed consent is the key to free elections. If the governed are foolish, ignorant, deprived, scared, intimidated, bought off and kept ignorant, can their so-called choices be said to be the result of free elections? Let’s not mince words here, or beg altruistic consideration of a process undergoing change. These are not free elections in the sense of being free to make an informed choice.
The moron [word choice by Thai academic, not me] who is now prime minister is a case in point. He would not even get a job mowing my lawn. Buffoon? As one person asked, why insult buffoons?
Samak et. al are nominees of Thaksin Shinawatra. They were from the moment they all met and agreed to this and that, and got the final OK from the man himself. So if these are free elections, God help Thailand.
Like I said before, Thailand needs thousands of PAD’s and PAD-types, not acting exactly as the PAD, but people and groups who dig up details and expose them to the public at large. People who won’t take another false promise for fact, people who are willing to take time off from work and families to show support for a good cause. Of course, because of the Thai sociopolitical infrastructure Sondhi has used the monarchy and nationalism to vanguard much of his movement. Just as one successive Thai government after another has done exactly the same thing, whether so-called elected or military junta. Everyone does it, everyone has abused the practice, and selecting PAD as worthy of criticism because it is doing the same thing as everyone else is not logical. Condemn one, condemn all.
Rambo and the real war in Burma
David Everett,
My email address appears below. I would like to have an offline discussion with you if at all possible.
Charles Foster
[email protected]
Rambo and the real war in Burma
Hi All,
I think some people have their heads shoved up their backsides when they comment that films like Rambo 4 and foreign military assistance to the KNLA help prolonge the internal repression in Burma. I am sorry for the strong language, but it makes me physically sick when I hear comments like this. I don’t watch Rambo movies or war flicks for that matter. I have seen enough dead people for real to haunt me for the rest of my life, especially in Burma. Maybe people have been misquoted regarding the prolonging of the conflict in this manner. But when I hear that I know they are either academics, who live in another world, or complete nut cases. If you study the psych of the Burman military elite, and the tatmadaw’s general philosophy, you will understand why comments like this are completely wrong. The military leaders and their troops, on a whole, see themselves as the saviours of the nation, they believe in what they are doing, that is the irony of the whole situation. The military opens the way for social and political advancement and gives many soldiers and their families access to education, rations, medical attention, housing and safety. It also gives people a job. They view all foreigners as oppressors intent on destabalising the country and harp back to the days of when the British deposed the last Burman Royal family in the 1800s during the three Anglo/Burman wars. The junta view themselves as the returning Burman kings. They will never bring peace to the country. AND, Burma was never a united country in the first place. The ethnic minorities in the hills were never under Burman rule, they weren’t even part of the Burman Empire. The British drew the present map of Burma, as they did in the Middle East, and look what is happening there now. I would dearly love peace to come to Burma, for everybody there. But it ain’t gunna happen with the military in charge. If people don’t resist, change will never come. Get real people, nice to have an opinion and hug a tree, but it isn’t an informed one, and whilst you are hugging it, make sure it isn’t in Burma or you will most probably get a bayoned in the back and be pinned to the tree for good.
Thai politics quote of the day
A headline (and subheadline) from “Not the Nation”
People’s Alliance for Democracy Protests Against People, Alliances, and Democracy
Anti-Thaksin, pro-coup group demands mob rule, election nullification, and legislation by unelected elites
http://www.notthenation.com/pages/news/getnews.php?id=518
Thai politics quote of the day
After 2006 PAD protest, those who go up the stage compete under Democrat banner and many won an MP. But after government coalition form without Democrat. Those people took off their (MP) jacket and put on so-called “people’s democracy” and go up stage again. That is not democracy.
– translate and reword from government deputy spokeman, TV interview.
Thai politics quote of the day
Ngana Daen: “On face value, your quote sounds good, but don’t forget why they are protesting, and would they be protesting if the government had acted differently?”
Yep, they are preventing designer constitutions tailored to certain business interests. They cannot not protest. Furthermore, the protesters are part of a delicate equilibrium between Samak, the military, Thaksin, the Democrat opposition, members of the PPP, so His Majesty the King’s words seem to favour no one but encourage Samak, a little ambiguous so as not to favour anyone, neutral, the most important thing: non-violence [Pali: ahimsa], or at least that’s the way I read it. These are not the violent riots you normally see on TV in other countries.
JSEAS special issue on Burma is out now
Apparently there is no point in attempting to enlighten people with closed minds amd no interest in learning if this involves questioning their own prejudiced views. In the case of Mr. Horn, I think his explosive words reflect well his character and behavior, which is why he left Burma abruptly and under protest, a fact which he still seems to be denying many years later. I guess we just have to accept the fact that there are many different kinds of people in the world, from misguided Burmese gemerals to delusional bloggers. Education never ends, for those who are willing to learn, and for some others it is not a goal because they seem to know everthing from some intuitive source of information which noone else has ever seen or heard. There is not much one can do about the latter except to be amused by their rantings.
Thai politics quote of the day
On face value, your quote sounds good, but don’t forget why they are protesting, and would they be protesting if the government had acted differently?
As for quotes, I’ve got a couple for starters:
“Be patient with the headache-inducing situation until July 2,” Thaksin told reporters Monday. “Mars moving close to Saturn causes the headache. When Mars leaves, the situation will ease.”
and
The general admitted Mr Thaksin wanted to invest in joint natural gas development, but said that the project required further talks.
”I insist we’ve never talked about a trade-off between Preah Vihear and natural gas with Mr Thaksin,” Gen Teah Banh said. ”How could we make such an agreement?”
JSEAS special issue on Burma is out now
Yes, handbags gentlemen. I think the Germans will win Euro 2008.
Rambo and the real war in Burma
Charles I love the smell of napalm in the morning F, academics with all their ideas and neurosis, shape the real world you live in. You wonder why academics favour appeasement and accommodation with evil? Is your real world full of Steven Segal action figures? What is evil exactly? I bet somewhere along the line an academic would have argued your real evil for you! Better look them up!! MMMMmm the smell of that fire is better than breakfast!
‘Buddhism and Science’ conference at Mahidol
[…] Last year I highlighted an interesting conference at Thailand’s Mahidol University on the topic of Buddhism and Science. […]