I do not think we can fault Samak or his PPP cohorts for dishonesty. After all Samak had openly confessed to being a proxy for Thaksin and his political campaign to gain the Thai premiership (and was victorious by the way) was all about “pardoning” Thaksin and those 110 other former TRT executives banned from Thai politics for electoral fraud . . .
“Saving one’s skin” is therefore totally acceptable and if that will require the total rewrite of the recent constitution (whether this was approved by 14-to-10 national referendum vote would be a moot point), then so be it – – – which should achieve to save every election-fraud prone MP from any future embarassment.
While they are it . . . why not legalize election buying and totally grant immunity to every ELECTED official from persecution for corruption or similarly “politically motivated” malicious allegations?
Now every Thai citizen, save the ELECTED elite, will be totally constitutionally constipated like their rural counterparts. Should we wonder Samak’s PPP and the Myanmar junta are such kissing buddies?
[…] the outcome was rigged by the threat of “anything goes” if a No vote succeeded, or how opponents to the draft were denied public space. Yet his willingness to make ill-informed comments about government in Thailand is a regrettably […]
I don’t know of anyone saying it is not acceptable for a government to amend laws.
What I think they are objecting to is amending laws to ‘save ones skin’, rather than let the matter play out under the rules that were in place when the (alleged) offences occurred.
Should such a precedent be set by elected governments?
(as distinct from non elected junta’s)
Even if the penalties appear harsh, all parties knew about the rules (or should have) – Oh we’ll just change the rules if we get caught, who cares about playing by the rules.
(I wonder, what’s so bad about acting fairly and honestly, and expelling those who do not?)
…applying and abiding by the laws of the current constitution …the use or the threat of violence to seize power cannot be justified
The current constitution was put in place by seizing power, but seizing power cannot be justified.
A conundrum, huh?
The problem here aside from accepting the imposed current constitution is: Do current government have legal power to amend it? The current constitution does not say it cannot be change, and their drafter, in fact, encourage to vote yes then change later.
So, if it is acceptable to amend the current constitution legally.
Should citizen abide by the amended constitution? Does it also need another referendum?
Assam native me(pun intended)..sorry if I dug this up late but if you have been blessed enough to travel by the Indian Railways..The “Rajdhani Express” starting New Delhi travels twice a week till Dibrugarh beyond Tinsukia. Overnight trains go upto Ledo daily from Guwahati – capital of Assam…you are right probably nothing much has changed about this part from WW2..if Gen Stilwell were to walk into Ledo today he might still recognise it! Hopefully that would change for the better if Uncle Joe’s old road is operational again and some worthwhile trade flows through it…Cheers!
I agree with all of that, as long as you actually mean what you say.
The law of the current constitution allows a majority of the combined parliament and senate to change it. Following the laws of the constitution are inherently “well-ordained” and peaceful” as long as no one outside the government uses or threatens violence.
I do think this is what should happen regarding the dissolution issue. However, a more serious revision of the constitution that aims to improve the 1997 version using the broad public process that it was drafted under would be ideal as a longer term solution.Witawat,
Witawat,
Paul Handley’s essay on the Privy Council makes it sound like that mistake was made decades ago. The more recent mistake is not realizing that the time for a royally managed stage puppet government is long gone. I agree regarding the damage done.
I’m not sure Thailand has been moving backwards. I actually think that the backwards elements have just been dragged into the light where we can see them.
Maybe, because Thai politics is a multi-team game these days that needs good sportsmanship not to cause a serious upheaval amongst players, referees (or those who have appointed themselves to these positions), and the spectators? Maybe, we will see rival groups of fans battling it out? The fun that is Thai political sports these days.
politics is sport
come gather round the court
come see Surayud become all privy
as you cheer and down a tiger beer
you think they’re looking like they could be back in form this year;
they’re sporting all the same smear rorts,
they lost the shoulder-smacking military-backing
after the lights were ablaring things were happening
you see the media sacarin glistening on their tongues
they’ll be climbing up the rungs to the top of the industry echelons
keep it going on cos they didn’t just come to play they came to win
pros like them know losing is a sin
and when it comes down to handling their balls
these privy boys’ll give it their all from hand to eye
down the line super fine electoral control
along with some underhanded power plays
they’ll be leaving all the opposition in a stunned daze
you find they always have the last laugh
as the crowd roar
for yellow some more
now the crowd goes wild for sufficiency skills
so Samak teaches lessons in regression
but it sure doesn’t pay the bills
what the hell we hitting for?
royal companies keeping score;
don’t ya see Thaksin’s suffered one too many knocks
trying to get those financial statements from the office desk
before the military whacked him for six
then they started pumping out the oh so innocent hits to feed the media blitz
now watch the swollen champs blow the champers on bikini clad
tank straddling chicks
high five and then we pray to our living god;
before we play to the throbbing mob
so if you’re ever on the sideline or sweating in the court
just remember my friends
politics is sport!
—-
…. Regurgitator’s – Music is Sport butchered shamelessly
HMK first made the terrible mistake by dragging judicial people into the executive branch, in effect violating the principle of separation of power between the three main branches of democratic government. Somehow he was desperate to find a counterforce to the powerful executive branch then. Wittingly or not, he destroyed the very fiber of democracy and reemphasize his feudal role of god-king. Sadly, Thailand has been moving backward, as have its people. Today, we see Thai people immerse themselves in occult things more than ever.
“It has been demonstrated clearly in PPA 2000, and now in PPA 2006, in the studies by Ian and Bruce, in the studies by ACF, in the WB-EC PSIA, and I am sure elsewhere”…
Indeed ! The first extensive survey on resettlement done in Laos has been published in 1997 in 2 volumes
Yves Goudineau (ed.) Social Characteristics of resettled villages in Laos, Undp-Orstom-Unesco, 2 volumes, 390 pages.
The first volume include the general report and statistics, the second one the provincial reports on 6 provinces (more or less 1000 families or 6000 people interviewed during one year in 2006 by a team of foreign and lao researchers).
This report already showed clearly the negative impacts of resettlement in most of the cases, as well as the impossibility to classify the resettlement cases simply as being either “voluntary” or unvoluntary”. Later on, other studies confirmed the conclusions of this report and provide more details on specific issues (such as the links between mortality and resettlement). Unfortunately, the attitude of the Lao authorities as well as of the main donors did not really change up to now…
A last word, there are also two articles related to resettlement in Laos in Development and Change volume 35, number 5, November 2004.
I take back what I said about the King not recently being involved in political machinations. Publicly he still has his birthday speeches as ever, but privately, there is no way we can know the centrality of his role. The role of his network, though, is fairly blatant.
Frank, thank you for being patronising. I appreciate it seeing as it comes from a suitably senior and experienced expat. A deserved stance of a phuyai.
I try to be amicable, but how am I supposed to defend my views when my mature opposition simply calls it half-baked and that’s it. What’s more how have you defended your own ill-founded opinions by saying that? You once got the matter of my background wrong, so I guess I have a little bit more of a basis for using the word “ill-founded” than you with “half-baked”. You do realize this debate could be so much more than a mud-slinging match if there was content to be debated. But I still don’t even know if the half baked comment was directed to Ladyboy or me, I’m assuming at my own risk here.
Strong confirmation that you WERE telling the truth about being Thai born and bred. Sorry about that.
Apology accepted, but I reserve the right to bring it up to against you at all times. Nah, that would be childish wouldn’t it.
PS: BTW do you prefer Thaksin these days? A lot of my friends do.
What do you mean by prefer? If I could pick anyone to be Prime Minister I wouldn’t pick Thaksin, not by a million miles. If I am constrained by whatever reason to pick between Thaksin and a royally appointed Prime Minister, I would pick Thaksin based on HMK’s track record with royally appointed prime ministers.
I think you will find it difficult to categorize where I stand, but one thing’s for sure, I am definitely for the curtailment of royal powers and influence, for the repeal of lese majeste, and the opening of all royal activities to public scrutiny as well as forcing royals to pay taxes and swear allegiance to the Constitution.
At the same time, I support bringing Thaksin to trial for his crimes and clearly enforce the rule of law. However, as much as the curtailment of royal powers will not happen anytime soon, same is with Thaksin. At this point for Thailand I don’t believe any politician will make much of a difference. The people must do it for themselves. We have to change as a nation in order to reach the point where the rule of law or curtailment of extra-constitutional powers is a feasible dream rather than hope some preferred big guy will do it for you.
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Royalist elite vs Thaksin’s loyalists
I do not think we can fault Samak or his PPP cohorts for dishonesty. After all Samak had openly confessed to being a proxy for Thaksin and his political campaign to gain the Thai premiership (and was victorious by the way) was all about “pardoning” Thaksin and those 110 other former TRT executives banned from Thai politics for electoral fraud . . .
“Saving one’s skin” is therefore totally acceptable and if that will require the total rewrite of the recent constitution (whether this was approved by 14-to-10 national referendum vote would be a moot point), then so be it – – – which should achieve to save every election-fraud prone MP from any future embarassment.
While they are it . . . why not legalize election buying and totally grant immunity to every ELECTED official from persecution for corruption or similarly “politically motivated” malicious allegations?
Now every Thai citizen, save the ELECTED elite, will be totally constitutionally constipated like their rural counterparts. Should we wonder Samak’s PPP and the Myanmar junta are such kissing buddies?
A free debate?
[…] the outcome was rigged by the threat of “anything goes” if a No vote succeeded, or how opponents to the draft were denied public space. Yet his willingness to make ill-informed comments about government in Thailand is a regrettably […]
Royalist elite vs Thaksin’s loyalists
I don’t know of anyone saying it is not acceptable for a government to amend laws.
What I think they are objecting to is amending laws to ‘save ones skin’, rather than let the matter play out under the rules that were in place when the (alleged) offences occurred.
Should such a precedent be set by elected governments?
(as distinct from non elected junta’s)
Even if the penalties appear harsh, all parties knew about the rules (or should have) – Oh we’ll just change the rules if we get caught, who cares about playing by the rules.
(I wonder, what’s so bad about acting fairly and honestly, and expelling those who do not?)
Where does the slippery slope end?
Kunming to Bangkok road links
It will be France, 1940, all over again.
So, who will be the Vichy Thais?
Ching, chong, sher, shiao …
(That’s my Mandarin lesson, getting ready to be a slave)
Fair game
Re: Grasshopper
Hey, thanks for introducing me to Regurgitator! Is it just me or do they sound, at times, like a more sane version of the Polysics?
Royalist elite vs Thaksin’s loyalists
…applying and abiding by the laws of the current constitution
…the use or the threat of violence to seize power cannot be justified
The current constitution was put in place by seizing power, but seizing power cannot be justified.
A conundrum, huh?
The problem here aside from accepting the imposed current constitution is: Do current government have legal power to amend it? The current constitution does not say it cannot be change, and their drafter, in fact, encourage to vote yes then change later.
So, if it is acceptable to amend the current constitution legally.
Should citizen abide by the amended constitution? Does it also need another referendum?
The Stilwell Road
Assam native me(pun intended)..sorry if I dug this up late but if you have been blessed enough to travel by the Indian Railways..The “Rajdhani Express” starting New Delhi travels twice a week till Dibrugarh beyond Tinsukia. Overnight trains go upto Ledo daily from Guwahati – capital of Assam…you are right probably nothing much has changed about this part from WW2..if Gen Stilwell were to walk into Ledo today he might still recognise it! Hopefully that would change for the better if Uncle Joe’s old road is operational again and some worthwhile trade flows through it…Cheers!
Royalist elite vs Thaksin’s loyalists
Thai TV,
I agree with all of that, as long as you actually mean what you say.
The law of the current constitution allows a majority of the combined parliament and senate to change it. Following the laws of the constitution are inherently “well-ordained” and peaceful” as long as no one outside the government uses or threatens violence.
I do think this is what should happen regarding the dissolution issue. However, a more serious revision of the constitution that aims to improve the 1997 version using the broad public process that it was drafted under would be ideal as a longer term solution.Witawat,
Witawat,
Paul Handley’s essay on the Privy Council makes it sound like that mistake was made decades ago. The more recent mistake is not realizing that the time for a royally managed stage puppet government is long gone. I agree regarding the damage done.
I’m not sure Thailand has been moving backwards. I actually think that the backwards elements have just been dragged into the light where we can see them.
Fair game
Maybe, because Thai politics is a multi-team game these days that needs good sportsmanship not to cause a serious upheaval amongst players, referees (or those who have appointed themselves to these positions), and the spectators? Maybe, we will see rival groups of fans battling it out? The fun that is Thai political sports these days.
Royalist elite vs Thaksin’s loyalists
Well, just applying and abiding by the laws of the current constitution (the one recently voted) would be a good start!
And if any update is required for the constitution then may they follow a well-ordained and peaceful path.
Whoever lead, the use or the threat of violence to seize power cannot be justified!
Fair game
Probably because the article includes the word “premiership”.
Fair game
The Nation is just plain screwy these days. Hopefully in its death throes, to be replaced by something approaching a newspaper.
Fair game
politics is sport
come gather round the court
come see Surayud become all privy
as you cheer and down a tiger beer
you think they’re looking like they could be back in form this year;
they’re sporting all the same smear rorts,
they lost the shoulder-smacking military-backing
after the lights were ablaring things were happening
you see the media sacarin glistening on their tongues
they’ll be climbing up the rungs to the top of the industry echelons
keep it going on cos they didn’t just come to play they came to win
pros like them know losing is a sin
and when it comes down to handling their balls
these privy boys’ll give it their all from hand to eye
down the line super fine electoral control
along with some underhanded power plays
they’ll be leaving all the opposition in a stunned daze
you find they always have the last laugh
as the crowd roar
for yellow some more
now the crowd goes wild for sufficiency skills
so Samak teaches lessons in regression
but it sure doesn’t pay the bills
what the hell we hitting for?
royal companies keeping score;
don’t ya see Thaksin’s suffered one too many knocks
trying to get those financial statements from the office desk
before the military whacked him for six
then they started pumping out the oh so innocent hits to feed the media blitz
now watch the swollen champs blow the champers on bikini clad
tank straddling chicks
high five and then we pray to our living god;
before we play to the throbbing mob
so if you’re ever on the sideline or sweating in the court
just remember my friends
politics is sport!
—-
…. Regurgitator’s – Music is Sport butchered shamelessly
Royalist elite vs Thaksin’s loyalists
HMK first made the terrible mistake by dragging judicial people into the executive branch, in effect violating the principle of separation of power between the three main branches of democratic government. Somehow he was desperate to find a counterforce to the powerful executive branch then. Wittingly or not, he destroyed the very fiber of democracy and reemphasize his feudal role of god-king. Sadly, Thailand has been moving backward, as have its people. Today, we see Thai people immerse themselves in occult things more than ever.
Royalist elite vs Thaksin’s loyalists
Abide by which law?
The one already in place, the one that used to be in place, or the one that will be in place?
Royalist elite vs Thaksin’s loyalists
Let’s hope both sides will abide byt the law… An other coup would be disastrous for Thailand’s economy. 🙁
Internal resettlement in Laos: a response
“It has been demonstrated clearly in PPA 2000, and now in PPA 2006, in the studies by Ian and Bruce, in the studies by ACF, in the WB-EC PSIA, and I am sure elsewhere”…
Indeed ! The first extensive survey on resettlement done in Laos has been published in 1997 in 2 volumes
Yves Goudineau (ed.) Social Characteristics of resettled villages in Laos, Undp-Orstom-Unesco, 2 volumes, 390 pages.
The first volume include the general report and statistics, the second one the provincial reports on 6 provinces (more or less 1000 families or 6000 people interviewed during one year in 2006 by a team of foreign and lao researchers).
This report already showed clearly the negative impacts of resettlement in most of the cases, as well as the impossibility to classify the resettlement cases simply as being either “voluntary” or unvoluntary”. Later on, other studies confirmed the conclusions of this report and provide more details on specific issues (such as the links between mortality and resettlement). Unfortunately, the attitude of the Lao authorities as well as of the main donors did not really change up to now…
A last word, there are also two articles related to resettlement in Laos in Development and Change volume 35, number 5, November 2004.
What hope of amending attitudes?
I take back what I said about the King not recently being involved in political machinations. Publicly he still has his birthday speeches as ever, but privately, there is no way we can know the centrality of his role. The role of his network, though, is fairly blatant.
Sanctions and Burma’s potential
Thanks for visiting my country.
Thai studies conference underway
Frank, thank you for being patronising. I appreciate it seeing as it comes from a suitably senior and experienced expat. A deserved stance of a phuyai.
I try to be amicable, but how am I supposed to defend my views when my mature opposition simply calls it half-baked and that’s it. What’s more how have you defended your own ill-founded opinions by saying that? You once got the matter of my background wrong, so I guess I have a little bit more of a basis for using the word “ill-founded” than you with “half-baked”. You do realize this debate could be so much more than a mud-slinging match if there was content to be debated. But I still don’t even know if the half baked comment was directed to Ladyboy or me, I’m assuming at my own risk here.
Strong confirmation that you WERE telling the truth about being Thai born and bred. Sorry about that.
Apology accepted, but I reserve the right to bring it up to against you at all times. Nah, that would be childish wouldn’t it.
PS: BTW do you prefer Thaksin these days? A lot of my friends do.
What do you mean by prefer? If I could pick anyone to be Prime Minister I wouldn’t pick Thaksin, not by a million miles. If I am constrained by whatever reason to pick between Thaksin and a royally appointed Prime Minister, I would pick Thaksin based on HMK’s track record with royally appointed prime ministers.
I think you will find it difficult to categorize where I stand, but one thing’s for sure, I am definitely for the curtailment of royal powers and influence, for the repeal of lese majeste, and the opening of all royal activities to public scrutiny as well as forcing royals to pay taxes and swear allegiance to the Constitution.
At the same time, I support bringing Thaksin to trial for his crimes and clearly enforce the rule of law. However, as much as the curtailment of royal powers will not happen anytime soon, same is with Thaksin. At this point for Thailand I don’t believe any politician will make much of a difference. The people must do it for themselves. We have to change as a nation in order to reach the point where the rule of law or curtailment of extra-constitutional powers is a feasible dream rather than hope some preferred big guy will do it for you.