i hope everyone who supports the boycott/ sanctioning of Myanmar checked their jeans, ipods, digital cameras, televisions, computers, children’s toys, home theatre packages, DVD players, car parts, jewelry, paper books, furniture, light bulbs, car stereos, tshirts, sneakers, baseball caps, etc etc for a ‘Made In China’ tag, ‘cos if it has one then it seems a little hypocritical to me… oh, and did I mention the Olympics??
Lleij: I accept your point about “р╕Хр╕гр╕▒р╕к”, but irrespective of whether it is mere advice or even a command, the practical effect is more like advice, because on the ground it is either followed or ignored.
Hobby
PS. I hope you don’t mind me addressing you as Lleij (I thought it might be better than the usual LSS, but still saves on typing)
Teth: Do you really think it would make that much of a difference if it was published in Thai and widely distributed?
I have read (& enjoyed) the book – It debunks much of the royal propaganda and reiterates that the king does not trust politicians, but IMO there was no ‘smoking gun’ proving that he does not want democracy and a happy and prosperous nation, or that he does not care about the people.
I know Dog Lover says I am blinkered to critical comment, but if so, would I be alone?
…. and once the dust settles, what would stop the book being classed as just more politicised opinion?
btw, I would like to see the book published in Thai and freely available – it raises many things that need to be discussed, openly, for a better future.
Re: nganadeeleg Correct me if I’m wrong, but I do not recall HMK saying it had to be mandated as government policy (nor should it be)….I have yet to see anyone here prove that the advice is wrong [emphasis mine].
The conversation between nganadeeleg and Teth and Dog Lover highlight a problem in discussing culturally specific topics in a language with such a radically different pragmatics. When nganadeeleg argues that His Majesty the King merely “advises” his subjects to adopt the principles of SE, the word “advice” carries with it a pragmatic sense of “I’m telling you this because I think it’s a good idea and I am concerned for your well-being, but you are free to ignore me [i.e. it is not a command]”. However, since socio-relational deixis in Thai is so radically different than in English, the innocous word “advice” doesn’t really represent what is being said in Thai. In short, His Majesty, does not “р╣Бр╕Щр╕░р╕Щр╕│”, nor does His Majesty “р╣Ар╕кр╕Щр╕н”, for such words are too common. In Thai, His Majesty “р╕Хр╕гр╕▒р╕к”, as in р╣Гр╕Щр╕лр╕ер╕зр╕Зр╕Чр╕гр╕Зр╕Хр╕гр╕▒р╕кр╣Ар╕ир╕гр╕йр╕Рр╕Бр╕┤р╕Ир╕Юр╕нр╣Ар╕Юр╕╡р╕вр╕З. The closest you can get in English to represent the full meaning of “р╕Хр╕гр╕▒р╕к” is, perhaps, “royal proclaimation” or “pontificate” [in the word’s original sense].
Dog Lover: I also have seen plenty of critical comment about the proponents of SE, but I do not recall anyone proving that the moderation, reasonableness and immunity advice was wrong.
In fact, each time I ask what is wrong with that advice, all I get back is more criticism of the proponents of SE.
I admit I am a blinkered simpleton, so can you please indulge me with specific details of what is wrong with that advice , or at least provide the links if it has already been posted.
Thank you in advance.
btw, the advice seems all the more relevant to me as I watch the global credit crisis unfold (must be my blinkers, I suppose).
It is good to have read your entire piece, Mr/Dr/Prof Reynolds, because after reading many quotes off of news articles about the conference, I had thought you meant to say “nothing new here” as in: nothing new for the general population. “Nothing new” for Thailand’s political landscape. It must be nothing new for something who have extensively studied it beforehand, but, it was quite a new thing for me as a common man-on-the-street Thai.
If it were translated and disseminated as widely as royalist propaganda is, then bring it on. Unfortunately if it were to be translated and published, it will only be disseminated amongst those who will say it is “nothing new.”
Reynolds notes that Handley only used 2 Thai sources and makes the point that the book would have been different if Handley had read more Thai language materials. I just looked through the references of my copy of TKNS and found a further 17 references to Thai-language materials. There might be more than this. Each of the works Reynolds refers to in his little piece were published after TKNS was out.
Maybe you only see what you want to see and are blinkered to critical comment on SE. I have seen plenty of critical comment that makes sense to me. You will probably reject most of that criticism (based on your numerous posts to this blog). Hence SE cannot be a theory but merely conjecture and opinion. In your case it is politicised opinion.
Wonderful Interview.
I think Professor Steinberg with his immense experience and overall understanding of the Burmese mentality has hit the nail on the head,that no one till now has ever had.Being an expatriate from Burma myself and living in Germany for the past 35 years I’ve had several opportunities to visit or attend political meetings organised by Burmese Expatriates,I felt personally being a “Trittbrettfahrer” myself.Thanks
Dog Lover: Whether it is a ‘theory’ or not, I have yet to see anyone here prove that the advice is wrong (and I don’t think Lese Majeste is the reason)
🙂
It was about the relationship of form and substance in rhetoric/eloquence. To reach the deepest levels of intellectual sediments and nuance , you cannot do without Latin, Greek–and German! 🙂
“Oh goody, jonfernquest approves of this one. But why? It is the usual stuff of the international press.”
What I was suggesting above is that the international press could dig deeper, looking at the conference papers in more detail. The papers at the conference were not distributed very widely, but they did provide fresh information and new perspectives, the kind that I would think the international press would be hungry for. Today’s Bangkok Post has an interview with Chris Baker on translating Khun Chang Khun Phaen, for instance.
“…blinkered outsiders such as those at the EWC, but not to anyone who seriously watches Thailand’s politics”
Why would you assume that people at EWC are “blinkered outsiders” who don’t follow Thai politics? Anyway, if they are, it is probably due to international press stories that don’t dig very deep.
[…] colleagues have encouraged me to blog the comments I made during the Handley panel at the International Conference on Thai Studies this past January 2008. One of three panels on the […]
I am observing that the attachment of “theory” to SE is giving it a status that is undeserved unless theory is considered nothing more than opinion or speculation. In other words, it is conjecture and not necessarily based on any facts (like much in the underdeveloped parts of Wikipedia).
Working with the rural poor in the North west Province of Cameroon, on Village micro finance and enterprise programme, i came to understand that farmers could be very much trusted, especially the rural poor farmers. One main reason for this is the fact that they depend on their agricultural products and at times incase they can not make enough money to pay their debts, they pay back in kind.
there are some groups already well organised and their internal loan system is already well developed. this makes these groups to be very much trusted. they have been working on smaller credits and could be very efficient in handling larger credits.
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Call for Lonely Planet boycott
i hope everyone who supports the boycott/ sanctioning of Myanmar checked their jeans, ipods, digital cameras, televisions, computers, children’s toys, home theatre packages, DVD players, car parts, jewelry, paper books, furniture, light bulbs, car stereos, tshirts, sneakers, baseball caps, etc etc for a ‘Made In China’ tag, ‘cos if it has one then it seems a little hypocritical to me… oh, and did I mention the Olympics??
Sufficiency going forward, diversity going backward
Lleij: I accept your point about “р╕Хр╕гр╕▒р╕к”, but irrespective of whether it is mere advice or even a command, the practical effect is more like advice, because on the ground it is either followed or ignored.
Hobby
PS. I hope you don’t mind me addressing you as Lleij (I thought it might be better than the usual LSS, but still saves on typing)
“Arunachal Pradesh…exotically yours”
Why does Arunachal have an Inner Line Regime? Is it not part of India?
So why do Indians need an ILP?
So why does a foreigner with an Indian Visa need a RAP / PAP/
Please respond
Chandan
“Arunachal Pradesh…exotically yours”
Dear Sir
Why does Arunachal have an Inner Line Regime? Are you not part of India?
So why do other Indians need an Inner Line Permit to visit Arunachal?
Why does a foreigner having an Indian visa need a restricted area / protected area permit?
Do please reply.
Chandan
Reynolds on Handley’s The King Never Smiles
Teth: Do you really think it would make that much of a difference if it was published in Thai and widely distributed?
I have read (& enjoyed) the book – It debunks much of the royal propaganda and reiterates that the king does not trust politicians, but IMO there was no ‘smoking gun’ proving that he does not want democracy and a happy and prosperous nation, or that he does not care about the people.
I know Dog Lover says I am blinkered to critical comment, but if so, would I be alone?
…. and once the dust settles, what would stop the book being classed as just more politicised opinion?
btw, I would like to see the book published in Thai and freely available – it raises many things that need to be discussed, openly, for a better future.
Sufficiency going forward, diversity going backward
Re: nganadeeleg
Correct me if I’m wrong, but I do not recall HMK saying it had to be mandated as government policy (nor should it be)….I have yet to see anyone here prove that the advice is wrong [emphasis mine].
The conversation between nganadeeleg and Teth and Dog Lover highlight a problem in discussing culturally specific topics in a language with such a radically different pragmatics. When nganadeeleg argues that His Majesty the King merely “advises” his subjects to adopt the principles of SE, the word “advice” carries with it a pragmatic sense of “I’m telling you this because I think it’s a good idea and I am concerned for your well-being, but you are free to ignore me [i.e. it is not a command]”. However, since socio-relational deixis in Thai is so radically different than in English, the innocous word “advice” doesn’t really represent what is being said in Thai. In short, His Majesty, does not “р╣Бр╕Щр╕░р╕Щр╕│”, nor does His Majesty “р╣Ар╕кр╕Щр╕н”, for such words are too common. In Thai, His Majesty “р╕Хр╕гр╕▒р╕к”, as in р╣Гр╕Щр╕лр╕ер╕зр╕Зр╕Чр╕гр╕Зр╕Хр╕гр╕▒р╕кр╣Ар╕ир╕гр╕йр╕Рр╕Бр╕┤р╕Ир╕Юр╕нр╣Ар╕Юр╕╡р╕вр╕З. The closest you can get in English to represent the full meaning of “р╕Хр╕гр╕▒р╕к” is, perhaps, “royal proclaimation” or “pontificate” [in the word’s original sense].
Sufficiency going forward, diversity going backward
Dog Lover: I also have seen plenty of critical comment about the proponents of SE, but I do not recall anyone proving that the moderation, reasonableness and immunity advice was wrong.
In fact, each time I ask what is wrong with that advice, all I get back is more criticism of the proponents of SE.
I admit I am a blinkered simpleton, so can you please indulge me with specific details of what is wrong with that advice , or at least provide the links if it has already been posted.
Thank you in advance.
btw, the advice seems all the more relevant to me as I watch the global credit crisis unfold (must be my blinkers, I suppose).
Reynolds on Handley’s The King Never Smiles
It is good to have read your entire piece, Mr/Dr/Prof Reynolds, because after reading many quotes off of news articles about the conference, I had thought you meant to say “nothing new here” as in: nothing new for the general population. “Nothing new” for Thailand’s political landscape. It must be nothing new for something who have extensively studied it beforehand, but, it was quite a new thing for me as a common man-on-the-street Thai.
If it were translated and disseminated as widely as royalist propaganda is, then bring it on. Unfortunately if it were to be translated and published, it will only be disseminated amongst those who will say it is “nothing new.”
Reynolds on Handley’s The King Never Smiles
Reynolds notes that Handley only used 2 Thai sources and makes the point that the book would have been different if Handley had read more Thai language materials. I just looked through the references of my copy of TKNS and found a further 17 references to Thai-language materials. There might be more than this. Each of the works Reynolds refers to in his little piece were published after TKNS was out.
Sufficiency going forward, diversity going backward
Maybe you only see what you want to see and are blinkered to critical comment on SE. I have seen plenty of critical comment that makes sense to me. You will probably reject most of that criticism (based on your numerous posts to this blog). Hence SE cannot be a theory but merely conjecture and opinion. In your case it is politicised opinion.
The disappearance of Somchai Neelaphaijit
Re: Srithanonchai
To reach the deepest levels of intellectual sediments and nuance , you cannot do without Latin, Greek–and German!
This is why German continues to be the language of scholarship in the field of Classics.
Interview with Professor David Steinberg
Wonderful Interview.
I think Professor Steinberg with his immense experience and overall understanding of the Burmese mentality has hit the nail on the head,that no one till now has ever had.Being an expatriate from Burma myself and living in Germany for the past 35 years I’ve had several opportunities to visit or attend political meetings organised by Burmese Expatriates,I felt personally being a “Trittbrettfahrer” myself.Thanks
Sufficiency going forward, diversity going backward
Dog Lover: Whether it is a ‘theory’ or not, I have yet to see anyone here prove that the advice is wrong (and I don’t think Lese Majeste is the reason)
🙂
Reynolds on Handley’s The King Never Smiles
Thanks for this!
The disappearance of Somchai Neelaphaijit
It was about the relationship of form and substance in rhetoric/eloquence. To reach the deepest levels of intellectual sediments and nuance , you cannot do without Latin, Greek–and German! 🙂
Passing on the buck
“Oh goody, jonfernquest approves of this one. But why? It is the usual stuff of the international press.”
What I was suggesting above is that the international press could dig deeper, looking at the conference papers in more detail. The papers at the conference were not distributed very widely, but they did provide fresh information and new perspectives, the kind that I would think the international press would be hungry for. Today’s Bangkok Post has an interview with Chris Baker on translating Khun Chang Khun Phaen, for instance.
“…blinkered outsiders such as those at the EWC, but not to anyone who seriously watches Thailand’s politics”
Why would you assume that people at EWC are “blinkered outsiders” who don’t follow Thai politics? Anyway, if they are, it is probably due to international press stories that don’t dig very deep.
“What’s all the fuss about?”
[…] colleagues have encouraged me to blog the comments I made during the Handley panel at the International Conference on Thai Studies this past January 2008. One of three panels on the […]
The disappearance of Somchai Neelaphaijit
Wow, what was all that anyway? I noticed a lot of Latin and German being leveraged 🙂
Sufficiency going forward, diversity going backward
I am observing that the attachment of “theory” to SE is giving it a status that is undeserved unless theory is considered nothing more than opinion or speculation. In other words, it is conjecture and not necessarily based on any facts (like much in the underdeveloped parts of Wikipedia).
Can farmers be trusted with debt? Part 2
Working with the rural poor in the North west Province of Cameroon, on Village micro finance and enterprise programme, i came to understand that farmers could be very much trusted, especially the rural poor farmers. One main reason for this is the fact that they depend on their agricultural products and at times incase they can not make enough money to pay their debts, they pay back in kind.
there are some groups already well organised and their internal loan system is already well developed. this makes these groups to be very much trusted. they have been working on smaller credits and could be very efficient in handling larger credits.