“…Chowna Mein…his speech ranged across topics …to the etymology of place names along the India-Burma border. The other minister, C.C. Singpho, is reading a copy of The Miao Times, the local newspaper. This informative paper is published in English and the Editor-in-Chief is a **local Singpho intellectual**.”
“…relationship between Tai Khamti and Singpho…”
Does anyone know the first historical references to Singpho (or related ethnonym) and “Tai Hkamti” (which I’ve never been able to relate to Tai ethnonyms during the Ming dynasty) in the area that is now the Kachin state of Burma?
I ask because things quiet down in Chinese and Burmese sources and you don’t get references to Mohnyin-Mogaung (Burmese) or Meng Yang (Chinese) after the end of the Ming dynasty in 1644.
I think the problem is that it is hard not to antagonize more abuse after giving a well thought out answer, as you do Michael, when the questions and statements made by Republican and Somsak are loaded — they know all and see all afterall.
The other academics who are accountable unto this blog don’t seem to get involved with us peons — maybe there is a reason for this?
After all, you’re working and doing things, you write published papers, and write opinions. In the even of getting traction, mobility, and even real world change, you have been compromised.
You see, Republican is so pure, his “untouchableness” in arguments or having to cede points to mortals like Mikey (you), Paul and Thongchai. I mean, when you do nothing, you are never compromised, and thus pure.
When you are so pure, you don’t have to give credit to anyone for pushing social barriers or helping others in their fight. You simply have to point out the fault in others for compromising on their purity, after all, when you do nothing, you never have to rely on realities, and you know how pesky realities can be purity.
that is why you should take a chill pill, go to http://bkkeats.blogspot.com and find yourself a nice place to go for a meal.
I agree – the relationship between Tai Khamti and Singpho (and not just in historical, religious, cultural or linguistic spheres) is a really interesting issue, and one I hope to learn more about. Sometimes one even sees mention of an “All Tai Khamti & Singpho Students’ Union”. Like elsewhere in India’s northeast, student politics in Arunachal Pradesh is a serious business. This combined union (which seems to be just a sporadic fixture on the student political scene) is indicative of other shared links and interests. Some of those links appear to go right to the heart of the economy and deep into politics of all kinds. Chowna Mein seemed very at home among “our Singpho”.
When it comes to relations between th Tai (Khamti and others) and the Singpho, there is much to chew on indeed.
Great stuff. The Tai Khamti aspect is interesting. There are so many linkages that could have led to a quite different world than the one we live in. Maybe they will in the future.
Various episodes of exchanges in New Mandala suggest that New Mandala needs to address the issue of language on its blogs. Perhaps a statement on permissible type statements. It is very easy for people to say anything they want to say here without any accountability and therefore no responsibility. I refer to the use of insulting personal language directed at the person rather than the argument that lowers the tone and passes for argument. In the future I won’t be replying to people who do not use their own names, and I won’t be replying to people who happily and gaily throw around insults. Name-calling is one way of bullying one’s way through an argument so that the other retreats because they can’t be bothered. I won’t be engaging anymore, not because I get hurt – there are worse things in life – but because I can’t see much of a productive discussion occurring in such a context.
In this thread I’ve tried to stick with the argument, and ignore the personal accusations, to see where it went. Republican has been reduced to quibbling about my use of adjectives but has not budged on the key issue of giving unqualified support to elected politicians.
I was interested to see what the political implications of the Somsak/Republican position were, as well as the outcome of their attack on anyone not willing to touch the monarchy. The idea that human rights activists are hypocrites unless they also attack the monarchy sums up the sterile-abstract radicalism of the position. In the real world of politics, people will be using both elected politicians and the symbolism of the monarchy to advance the cause of human rights. Republicans may disagree with the strategy but to call it hypocritical is to miss the point of real politics in real places with rational use of symbolic and material resources to advance ends. Republican may also be suprised to learn that people take on very difficult issues in Thailand using their own name, and bravely address questions of injustice while using the symbolism of the monarchy to advance their cause. To label as hypocrites such people is a judgement I can not share.
While the exchange may have been ‘tiresome’ for Republican, I think it has been useful. Some of the consequences of the Somsak/Republican anti-monarchist position have been revealed – political immobilism, the use of principles to stifle real life politics, and a politics of pure majoritarianism in which anyone who questions majoritarian outcomes is seen as elitist and self-righteous (the end of politics if that is so).
Thanks. I heard about Ma Thanegi but did not really know anything about her before reading this article. This is the sort of informative article that people need to read, that begins to give a face to Burma’s almost 50 million people, who you never hear about, because only a couple issues and stories are obsessively repeated over and over again.
Though the state government has off-late started taking initiative to put the state in tourism map of the world by organising ‘Buddha Mahotsava’, ‘Siang River Festival’, ‘Pangsau Pass Festival’ et. al. but as long as there is this entry formalities the inflow of domestic as well as foreign tourist would be low and the tourism industry wouldn’t take off in a way it is/was envisaged by the state government. So, there is the need to review the entry formalities-may be scrap it for good-after all scropulous visitors do manage to get in the state by evading all the entry formalities, nullyfying the purpose for which the entry formalities was adopted. It has only served as a hindrance to genuine visitors to the state.
@jonfernquest,
Thanks for finding the photos and narratives fascinating.
I like your thing about Thaksin is anything you want him to be. The way they campaigned for Thaksin in the Northeast may have been akin to these slogans:
Excellent paper. I would also suggest to anyone who is interested in Thai politics to read Dr. Nelson’s other papers too. It is a pity that Thai academias themselves do not read or use his work as references (as much as they should). He has contributed so much to the study of Thai politics. I personally like Thai politics bibliograpyh he has collected. Very useful.
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The electorate and the “acute state of Thai politics”
ganjabucket #58: How can you possibly put Ajarn Somsak into the same category as Republican?
Please explain “us peons” – is this some kind of obscure irony?
Ministers at the Arunachal Pradesh Manau
“…Chowna Mein…his speech ranged across topics …to the etymology of place names along the India-Burma border. The other minister, C.C. Singpho, is reading a copy of The Miao Times, the local newspaper. This informative paper is published in English and the Editor-in-Chief is a **local Singpho intellectual**.”
“…relationship between Tai Khamti and Singpho…”
Does anyone know the first historical references to Singpho (or related ethnonym) and “Tai Hkamti” (which I’ve never been able to relate to Tai ethnonyms during the Ming dynasty) in the area that is now the Kachin state of Burma?
I ask because things quiet down in Chinese and Burmese sources and you don’t get references to Mohnyin-Mogaung (Burmese) or Meng Yang (Chinese) after the end of the Ming dynasty in 1644.
http://epress.nus.edu.sg/msl/map.html
http://epress.nus.edu.sg/msl/place/1149
The electorate and the “acute state of Thai politics”
I think the problem is that it is hard not to antagonize more abuse after giving a well thought out answer, as you do Michael, when the questions and statements made by Republican and Somsak are loaded — they know all and see all afterall.
The other academics who are accountable unto this blog don’t seem to get involved with us peons — maybe there is a reason for this?
Thai studies conference underway
Teth,
Never got to see your reply here.
your post #34 was spot on
I stand corrected, you had no idea he was being sarcastic in his tone.
I do ask you read the last sentence that was the giveaway to his sarcasm when mariner wrote:
“How many western agencies can boast initiatives which neither harm the environment not have any human costs?”
Since nothing and no one in life is perfect….
The electorate and the “acute state of Thai politics”
Oh Michael,
Take a Chill Pill.
After all, you’re working and doing things, you write published papers, and write opinions. In the even of getting traction, mobility, and even real world change, you have been compromised.
You see, Republican is so pure, his “untouchableness” in arguments or having to cede points to mortals like Mikey (you), Paul and Thongchai. I mean, when you do nothing, you are never compromised, and thus pure.
When you are so pure, you don’t have to give credit to anyone for pushing social barriers or helping others in their fight. You simply have to point out the fault in others for compromising on their purity, after all, when you do nothing, you never have to rely on realities, and you know how pesky realities can be purity.
that is why you should take a chill pill, go to http://bkkeats.blogspot.com and find yourself a nice place to go for a meal.
– Dickie
In very good company
All you need is love! Love of our Earth!
;-p
Ministers at the Arunachal Pradesh Manau
Thanks Aiontay,
I agree – the relationship between Tai Khamti and Singpho (and not just in historical, religious, cultural or linguistic spheres) is a really interesting issue, and one I hope to learn more about. Sometimes one even sees mention of an “All Tai Khamti & Singpho Students’ Union”. Like elsewhere in India’s northeast, student politics in Arunachal Pradesh is a serious business. This combined union (which seems to be just a sporadic fixture on the student political scene) is indicative of other shared links and interests. Some of those links appear to go right to the heart of the economy and deep into politics of all kinds. Chowna Mein seemed very at home among “our Singpho”.
When it comes to relations between th Tai (Khamti and others) and the Singpho, there is much to chew on indeed.
Best wishes to all,
Nich
Ministers at the Arunachal Pradesh Manau
Great stuff. The Tai Khamti aspect is interesting. There are so many linkages that could have led to a quite different world than the one we live in. Maybe they will in the future.
The rich don’t go to prison, and the poor don’t go to hospital
Rooly, Kayla – you are sooo sprung! Take your medication and get home to ya mother.
The electorate and the “acute state of Thai politics”
Various episodes of exchanges in New Mandala suggest that New Mandala needs to address the issue of language on its blogs. Perhaps a statement on permissible type statements. It is very easy for people to say anything they want to say here without any accountability and therefore no responsibility. I refer to the use of insulting personal language directed at the person rather than the argument that lowers the tone and passes for argument. In the future I won’t be replying to people who do not use their own names, and I won’t be replying to people who happily and gaily throw around insults. Name-calling is one way of bullying one’s way through an argument so that the other retreats because they can’t be bothered. I won’t be engaging anymore, not because I get hurt – there are worse things in life – but because I can’t see much of a productive discussion occurring in such a context.
In this thread I’ve tried to stick with the argument, and ignore the personal accusations, to see where it went. Republican has been reduced to quibbling about my use of adjectives but has not budged on the key issue of giving unqualified support to elected politicians.
I was interested to see what the political implications of the Somsak/Republican position were, as well as the outcome of their attack on anyone not willing to touch the monarchy. The idea that human rights activists are hypocrites unless they also attack the monarchy sums up the sterile-abstract radicalism of the position. In the real world of politics, people will be using both elected politicians and the symbolism of the monarchy to advance the cause of human rights. Republicans may disagree with the strategy but to call it hypocritical is to miss the point of real politics in real places with rational use of symbolic and material resources to advance ends. Republican may also be suprised to learn that people take on very difficult issues in Thailand using their own name, and bravely address questions of injustice while using the symbolism of the monarchy to advance their cause. To label as hypocrites such people is a judgement I can not share.
While the exchange may have been ‘tiresome’ for Republican, I think it has been useful. Some of the consequences of the Somsak/Republican anti-monarchist position have been revealed – political immobilism, the use of principles to stifle real life politics, and a politics of pure majoritarianism in which anyone who questions majoritarian outcomes is seen as elitist and self-righteous (the end of politics if that is so).
East-West Center to host Thai royal visit
Land of Snarls ““They were in the drug trade, they deserved to die,””
and don’t forget Thaksin’s puppet Samak wishes to continue the war on drugs….
The rich don’t go to prison, and the poor don’t go to hospital
this webste sucks major it has nothing to do with laos!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
In very good company
Thaksin gave his respects to the earth and who expressed their reverence to him?
Would you like to know?
(this is for people who can read Thai so I apologize if the quote doesn’t work—all images can be enlarged)
Basically Thaksin received a below the belt “wai” (*_*)
“р╕Ю.р╕Х.р╕Ч.р╕Чр╕▒р╕Бр╕йр╕┤р╕У р╣Др╕Фр╣Йр╕Бр╣Йр╕▓р╕зр╕ер╕Зр╕Ир╕▓р╕Бр╕гр╕Ц р╣Бр╕ер╕░р╣Ар╕бр╕╖р╣Ир╕нр╕ер╕Зр╕Ир╕▓р╕Бр╕гр╕Цр╕Ыр╕гр╕▓р╕Бр╕Пр╕зр╣Ир╕▓р╕бр╕╡р╕Щр╕▓р╕вр╕Хр╕│р╕гр╕зр╕И р╕Чр╕гр╕▓р╕Ър╕ар╕▓р╕вр╕лр╕ер╕▒р╕Зр╣Ар╕Ыр╣Зр╕Щ р╕Юр╕е.р╕Х.р╕Х.р╕Ър╕╕р╕Нр╕кр╣Ир╕З р╕Юр╕▓р╕Щр╕┤р╕Кр╕нр╕▒р╕Хр╕гр╕▓ р╕гр╕нр╕З р╕Ьр╕Ър╕К.р╕Щ. р╣Ар╕Вр╣Йр╕▓р╣Др╕Ыр╕Бр╣Йр╕бр╕Хр╕▒р╕зр╕ер╕Зр╣Др╕лр╕зр╣Й р╕Ю.р╕Х.р╕Ч.р╕Чр╕▒р╕Бр╕йр╕┤р╕У р╕Кр╕Щр╕┤р╕Фр╕Чр╕╡р╣Ир╕Бр╣Йр╕бр╕Хр╣Ир╕│р╕Бр╕зр╣Ир╕▓р╕Ыр╕Бр╕Хр╕┤р╕Цр╕╢р╕Зр╣Гр╕Хр╣Йр╣Ар╕Вр╣Зр╕бр╕Вр╕▒р╕Ф р╕Лр╕╢р╣Ир╕Зр╣Ар╕Ыр╣Зр╕Щр╕Ир╕▒р╕Зр╕лр╕зр╕░р╣Ар╕Фр╕╡р╕вр╕зр╕Бр╕▒р╕Ър╕Чр╕╡р╣Ир╕Кр╣Ир╕▓р╕Зр╕ар╕▓р╕Юр╕кр╕▓р╕бр╕▓р╕гр╕Цр╕Ир╕▒р╕Ър╕ар╕▓р╕Юр╕Фр╕▒р╕Зр╕Бр╕ер╣Ир╕▓р╕зр╣Др╕зр╣Йр╣Др╕Фр╣Й”
see the images:
http://www.manager.co.th/Crime/ViewNews.aspx?NewsID=9510000026454
In very good company
a good preformance!!! oh! but one thing Thaksin forgot is a preformance of his tear. Welcome back home ; tear
Interview with Burma’s Ma Thanegi
Thanks. I heard about Ma Thanegi but did not really know anything about her before reading this article. This is the sort of informative article that people need to read, that begins to give a face to Burma’s almost 50 million people, who you never hear about, because only a couple issues and stories are obsessively repeated over and over again.
“Arunachal Pradesh…exotically yours”
Though the state government has off-late started taking initiative to put the state in tourism map of the world by organising ‘Buddha Mahotsava’, ‘Siang River Festival’, ‘Pangsau Pass Festival’ et. al. but as long as there is this entry formalities the inflow of domestic as well as foreign tourist would be low and the tourism industry wouldn’t take off in a way it is/was envisaged by the state government. So, there is the need to review the entry formalities-may be scrap it for good-after all scropulous visitors do manage to get in the state by evading all the entry formalities, nullyfying the purpose for which the entry formalities was adopted. It has only served as a hindrance to genuine visitors to the state.
@jonfernquest,
Thanks for finding the photos and narratives fascinating.
“Arunachal Pradesh…exotically yours”
Thanks for the link on the “controversial story” behind the tourism slogan that is actually a lot more interesting than the slogan itself.
The other entries in this blog have fascinating photos and narratives:
http://arunachaldiary.blogspot.com/2008/03/construction-of-lapang-and-erection-of.html
In very good company
Chennault:
I like your thing about Thaksin is anything you want him to be. The way they campaigned for Thaksin in the Northeast may have been akin to these slogans:
“Thaksin fed your water Buffalo”
“Thaksin filled your Pickup truck Diesel”
“Thaksin bought you a yellow t-shirt”
“Thaksin surprised your mom on her b’day”
“Thaksin gave you a hug”
“Thaksin massaged your elderly grandfather”
“Thaksin helped your baby cross the road”
etc etc
In very good company
This certainly brightened up my morning. 🙂
New Thai politics papers from Michael H. Nelson
Excellent paper. I would also suggest to anyone who is interested in Thai politics to read Dr. Nelson’s other papers too. It is a pity that Thai academias themselves do not read or use his work as references (as much as they should). He has contributed so much to the study of Thai politics. I personally like Thai politics bibliograpyh he has collected. Very useful.