James Haughton: Good questions. Indeed, it might be better to ask more about the “World Development” debate with Rigg or even the earlier version of the book you cite. In fact, those works go back to the late 1980s, and people’s ideas change and develop, so I am pretty sure there is no exact congruency between the things I wrote back then (and with a colleague in the case of the book) and what I am writing 20 years later.
The way that you ask the question says something about how you view SE. In fact, SE is not proposed as anti-market in the UNDP report. One of the points of that report was to say that SE is compatible with the market and neo-liberal economics.
I recall that the point on “the observation that the most globalised provinces have done better on UNDP indices” is discussed in broad terms in the introduction and epilogue to the book you mention.
To trace my own thoughts and how they have changed on this topic one would need to read a number of things – those mentioned above and the papers in Pacific Review and the Singapore J. of Tropical Geography:
‘Nationalism, Populism, Dependency: Southeast Asia and Responses to the Asian Crisis’, Singapore Journal of Tropical Geography, 22, 3 (Special Issue on Global Processes, Local Responses: Resistance and Compliance in Southeast Asia), 2001, pp. 219-36.
‘Resisting Globalization: A Study of Localism in Thailand’, The Pacific Review, 13, 2 (2000), pp. 279-96.
Incidentally! Today I heard some garbled version of events that suggested that pink symbolized the CP as the future monarch. In which case, the two links above are even more apt. Does anyone here have any idea why pink might symbolize the CP?
Exactly, factor in the fact that it is above criticism and you have a situation where that information just bleats on and on onesidedly (and all day) and has promoters ranging from the prime minister to a privy councillor. Regardless of all good intentions, in the end, you get a stupid exercise machine that is worth 300 baht which doesn’t help you lose weight nor was it worth the 2,499 baht you paid for it.
thaipeople, I don’t think people here who are rejecting S.E. are criticizing sustainable ideology, it is being criticized because the way it is now used to manipulate people. Perhaps an analogy could be made where promoting fitness is now associated with bad TV infomercials. That there are bad TV infomercials that are trying to get your money sucking you into self-consciousness doesn’t mean that a healthy lifestyle is wrong. Just in the same way that sufficiency economy is advertised as an altruistic path for Thai citizens by playing on guilt and loyalty, doesn’t mean that being sustainable or conscious of needs vs. wants is wrong either….
nganadeeleg, pretty sure what I read there was Andrew’s support for democratic process –
I don’t agree with all aspect of Thaksin’s economic development policy, though I consider much of the critique of his so-called populist policies to be misplaced. And I certainly do not wish to endorse his government’s flagrant abuses of human rights both in the South and in the notorious war on drugs. Nor am I, like many others, comfortable with Thaksin’s apparent manipulation of key democratic institutions. But, my support is motivated by the belief that the fundamental democratic institution is the ballot box.
You must have cast a pretty big net to come up with only that. Also, if democratic process for you is just a horse race then this is clearly a perfect example of why Thailand only has Democracy-Lite 0.7 Beta installed! -_-
why why why not just a nice conservative grey, or dark blue or even a red (although that might have connotations). Next it will be neon green and the sheep will be out in their masses.
Furthermore, I would like to point out that the recent Robert Taylor interview at New Mandala clearly indicates that western intellectuals have been doing similar things with Aung San Suu Kyi’s biography as Thai intellectuals have been doing with HMK’s biography, the main difference being that in the Thai case the intellectual constructs come from within the country and make the country stronger. One can always dismiss this as being unimportant, but when a whole state falls apart and a significant fraction of the population dies (e.g. Cambodia, Iraq..+ other attempts of US foreign policy to impose iits will on places far away from home), only then is the importance very evident indeed.
Calm down, the King is not totally missing, although references such as “class response” might seem somewhat silly. Here is a paper that Republican will enjoy:
Setakit Popieng (Self-Sufficiency Economy) as an Alternative Approach to Economic Development: Possible Lessons for the World from Thailand and Japan
Gerald W. Fry, University of Minnesota
In the current global situation, there is excessive emphasis on materialism, militarism, and violence. It is also clear that the warming of the earth is occurring at alarming rates and that this poses major global challenges. Current approaches to development lack sustainability. A major world crisis looms ahead.
On December 5, 1997, partially in response to the Asian economic crisis which began in Thailand on July 2, 1997, King Bhumipol Adulyadej of Thailand articulated an alternative form of development which he termed setakit popieng (the self-sufficiency economy). Subsequently there have been many discussions of exactly what kind of alternative economy is represented by this new approach.
The objectives of this paper are, thus, to:
1) To explore how the King’s concept can be practically operationalized with concrete examples from the Thai development experience since 1997.
2) To investigate the relationship between Buddhist economics as articulated byscholars such as Schumacher, Apichai, and Sunai and the setakig popieng construct.
3) To review the new 2007 Thailand Human Development Report issued by the UNDP, which emphasizes setakit popieng and sustainable development.
4) Based on six months of recent field experience in Japan, identify concrete examples of setakit popieng in the recent Japanese development experience.
5) Finally, what can the world learn from the Thai and Japanese experiences in terms of moving toward more sustainable development approaches?
Fry is a very old hand in Thai studies, mainly in education, where he is said to have been very well assimiliated to the Thai education bureaucracy and its world view.
I think the problem is that the elites who have taken the ideas and words of HMK and packaged it or branded it as Sufficiency Economy have **overstepped their audience** a little with the UNDP report which is directed to an international English language audience, not a local Thai language audience. [Luckily criticism of elites was not incorporated into the recent lese majeste law revisions.]
Critical readers may often find flaws in the UNDP report’s inheritance of what could only be called a “Royal Chronicle” style of writing. I experience the same phenomena with Burmese Chronicle history which is written with the Burmese king as the referent point for the whole universe. The agency of the state is taken as synonymous with the human agency of the king. All events are portrayed euphemistically, for example: “The royal desire was fulfilled” means the army won a battle. In translation, one is always having to infer and fill in pronoun referents, for example: “He” means “the King.” or “The prince was called.” means “The prince was called to the King’s presence.” This Royal Chronicle style presents problems when juxtaposed with, Ming dynasty court annals, for instance, which often paint a completely different more complicated version of events. This is **a problem that lies at the very heart of mainland Southeast Asian royal historiography**.”
This having been said, it is easy to see that Thailand has prospered during the Cold War era which is roughly contemporaneous with HMK’s reign. Thailand was not drawn into the Vietnam War as much as Laos and Cambodia were and did not become a closed socialist state like Burma did. They got rid of US military bases much earlier than Taiwan, South Korea, and Japan.
A western historian would probably be reticent about attributing all of Thailand’s post-WWII prosperity and development to the human agency of the King, **but he would surely attribute a lot of the prosperity to the King.** (Charoen, charoen!) Furthermore, to throw out the bad (events circa 1976) and only record the good, is a little bit unrealistic, but with lese majeste laws being what they are, the bad must be thrown out, unfortunately. To conclude, I would say that the very institution of kingship that has evolved in Thailand post-WWII, and that led to Cold War prosperity in Thailand, in the end also precludes an adequate description in Thailand. **This is a problem with lese majeste laws, not the institution of kingship.**
For those presenting at the ICTS and sufficiency economy researchers at the ANU and elsewhere, here is some more interesting data on how the King puts his “theory” of sufficiency economy into practice:
The Thailand portion of this blog/forum would be rather boring without Jeru & Vichai.
Without them, I wonder whether Republican would manage to be self sufficient in sprouting his anti royal vitriol.
Also, Andrew has been rather quiet of late in his support of PPP(TRT) – perhaps he thinks that Samak is a self sufficient blowhard, and doesn’t need AW’s overt support.
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Royalist propaganda and policy nonsense
James Haughton: Good questions. Indeed, it might be better to ask more about the “World Development” debate with Rigg or even the earlier version of the book you cite. In fact, those works go back to the late 1980s, and people’s ideas change and develop, so I am pretty sure there is no exact congruency between the things I wrote back then (and with a colleague in the case of the book) and what I am writing 20 years later.
The way that you ask the question says something about how you view SE. In fact, SE is not proposed as anti-market in the UNDP report. One of the points of that report was to say that SE is compatible with the market and neo-liberal economics.
I recall that the point on “the observation that the most globalised provinces have done better on UNDP indices” is discussed in broad terms in the introduction and epilogue to the book you mention.
To trace my own thoughts and how they have changed on this topic one would need to read a number of things – those mentioned above and the papers in Pacific Review and the Singapore J. of Tropical Geography:
‘Nationalism, Populism, Dependency: Southeast Asia and Responses to the Asian Crisis’, Singapore Journal of Tropical Geography, 22, 3 (Special Issue on Global Processes, Local Responses: Resistance and Compliance in Southeast Asia), 2001, pp. 219-36.
‘Resisting Globalization: A Study of Localism in Thailand’, The Pacific Review, 13, 2 (2000), pp. 279-96.
Royalist propaganda and policy nonsense
“and make the country stronger” > Don’t quite know what this means.
Self-sufficient junta
I cannot be bothered searching all AW’s posts, so I just went to his first one – remember I’m not an academic, and this is just a hobby to me.
Maybe I am mistaken, but from the tone of New Mandala, I have formed the impression that AW (and a few others here) are barracking for Samak (PPP).
New Mandala goes …….
Couple of links here that sprang to mind, apart from the obvious current one, when I saw your new color scheme:
http://www.angkor.com/2bangkok/2bangkok/forum/showpost.php?p=16934&postcount=102
http://www.angkor.com/2bangkok/2bangkok/forum/showpost.php?p=16284&postcount=23
Incidentally! Today I heard some garbled version of events that suggested that pink symbolized the CP as the future monarch. In which case, the two links above are even more apt. Does anyone here have any idea why pink might symbolize the CP?
Royalist propaganda and policy nonsense
Exactly, factor in the fact that it is above criticism and you have a situation where that information just bleats on and on onesidedly (and all day) and has promoters ranging from the prime minister to a privy councillor. Regardless of all good intentions, in the end, you get a stupid exercise machine that is worth 300 baht which doesn’t help you lose weight nor was it worth the 2,499 baht you paid for it.
New Mandala goes …….
Long Live the King!
May he live forever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever!
And may Thailand forever not be an “advanced country” cause everything that goes up must come down. As opposed to something that never goes up.
Royalist propaganda and policy nonsense
thaipeople, I don’t think people here who are rejecting S.E. are criticizing sustainable ideology, it is being criticized because the way it is now used to manipulate people. Perhaps an analogy could be made where promoting fitness is now associated with bad TV infomercials. That there are bad TV infomercials that are trying to get your money sucking you into self-consciousness doesn’t mean that a healthy lifestyle is wrong. Just in the same way that sufficiency economy is advertised as an altruistic path for Thai citizens by playing on guilt and loyalty, doesn’t mean that being sustainable or conscious of needs vs. wants is wrong either….
Self-sufficient junta
nganadeeleg, pretty sure what I read there was Andrew’s support for democratic process –
I don’t agree with all aspect of Thaksin’s economic development policy, though I consider much of the critique of his so-called populist policies to be misplaced. And I certainly do not wish to endorse his government’s flagrant abuses of human rights both in the South and in the notorious war on drugs. Nor am I, like many others, comfortable with Thaksin’s apparent manipulation of key democratic institutions. But, my support is motivated by the belief that the fundamental democratic institution is the ballot box.
You must have cast a pretty big net to come up with only that. Also, if democratic process for you is just a horse race then this is clearly a perfect example of why Thailand only has Democracy-Lite 0.7 Beta installed! -_-
New Mandala goes …….
why why why not just a nice conservative grey, or dark blue or even a red (although that might have connotations). Next it will be neon green and the sheep will be out in their masses.
Royalist propaganda and policy nonsense
I think that you never read “Small is beautiful”
“Sufficiency Economy” is best for everyone and self our planet in the end.
Royalist propaganda and policy nonsense
Republican
I think that you nerver read “Small is beautiful”
“Sufficiency Economy” is best for evryone and selt our planet in the end.
Royalist propaganda and policy nonsense
Furthermore, I would like to point out that the recent Robert Taylor interview at New Mandala clearly indicates that western intellectuals have been doing similar things with Aung San Suu Kyi’s biography as Thai intellectuals have been doing with HMK’s biography, the main difference being that in the Thai case the intellectual constructs come from within the country and make the country stronger. One can always dismiss this as being unimportant, but when a whole state falls apart and a significant fraction of the population dies (e.g. Cambodia, Iraq..+ other attempts of US foreign policy to impose iits will on places far away from home), only then is the importance very evident indeed.
Self-sufficient junta
PPP = TRT (same trainer & owner, different jockey)
http://rspas.anu.edu.au/rmap/newmandala/2006/06/16/some-thoughts-on-the-political-crisis-in-thailand/#more-56
Royalist propaganda and policy nonsense
Calm down, the King is not totally missing, although references such as “class response” might seem somewhat silly. Here is a paper that Republican will enjoy:
Setakit Popieng (Self-Sufficiency Economy) as an Alternative Approach to Economic Development: Possible Lessons for the World from Thailand and Japan
Gerald W. Fry, University of Minnesota
In the current global situation, there is excessive emphasis on materialism, militarism, and violence. It is also clear that the warming of the earth is occurring at alarming rates and that this poses major global challenges. Current approaches to development lack sustainability. A major world crisis looms ahead.
On December 5, 1997, partially in response to the Asian economic crisis which began in Thailand on July 2, 1997, King Bhumipol Adulyadej of Thailand articulated an alternative form of development which he termed setakit popieng (the self-sufficiency economy). Subsequently there have been many discussions of exactly what kind of alternative economy is represented by this new approach.
The objectives of this paper are, thus, to:
1) To explore how the King’s concept can be practically operationalized with concrete examples from the Thai development experience since 1997.
2) To investigate the relationship between Buddhist economics as articulated byscholars such as Schumacher, Apichai, and Sunai and the setakig popieng construct.
3) To review the new 2007 Thailand Human Development Report issued by the UNDP, which emphasizes setakit popieng and sustainable development.
4) Based on six months of recent field experience in Japan, identify concrete examples of setakit popieng in the recent Japanese development experience.
5) Finally, what can the world learn from the Thai and Japanese experiences in terms of moving toward more sustainable development approaches?
Fry is a very old hand in Thai studies, mainly in education, where he is said to have been very well assimiliated to the Thai education bureaucracy and its world view.
Royalist propaganda and policy nonsense
I think the problem is that the elites who have taken the ideas and words of HMK and packaged it or branded it as Sufficiency Economy have **overstepped their audience** a little with the UNDP report which is directed to an international English language audience, not a local Thai language audience. [Luckily criticism of elites was not incorporated into the recent lese majeste law revisions.]
Critical readers may often find flaws in the UNDP report’s inheritance of what could only be called a “Royal Chronicle” style of writing. I experience the same phenomena with Burmese Chronicle history which is written with the Burmese king as the referent point for the whole universe. The agency of the state is taken as synonymous with the human agency of the king. All events are portrayed euphemistically, for example: “The royal desire was fulfilled” means the army won a battle. In translation, one is always having to infer and fill in pronoun referents, for example: “He” means “the King.” or “The prince was called.” means “The prince was called to the King’s presence.” This Royal Chronicle style presents problems when juxtaposed with, Ming dynasty court annals, for instance, which often paint a completely different more complicated version of events. This is **a problem that lies at the very heart of mainland Southeast Asian royal historiography**.”
This having been said, it is easy to see that Thailand has prospered during the Cold War era which is roughly contemporaneous with HMK’s reign. Thailand was not drawn into the Vietnam War as much as Laos and Cambodia were and did not become a closed socialist state like Burma did. They got rid of US military bases much earlier than Taiwan, South Korea, and Japan.
A western historian would probably be reticent about attributing all of Thailand’s post-WWII prosperity and development to the human agency of the King, **but he would surely attribute a lot of the prosperity to the King.** (Charoen, charoen!) Furthermore, to throw out the bad (events circa 1976) and only record the good, is a little bit unrealistic, but with lese majeste laws being what they are, the bad must be thrown out, unfortunately. To conclude, I would say that the very institution of kingship that has evolved in Thailand post-WWII, and that led to Cold War prosperity in Thailand, in the end also precludes an adequate description in Thailand. **This is a problem with lese majeste laws, not the institution of kingship.**
Royalist propaganda and policy nonsense
For those presenting at the ICTS and sufficiency economy researchers at the ANU and elsewhere, here is some more interesting data on how the King puts his “theory” of sufficiency economy into practice:
http://www.sameskybooks.org/board/index.php?showtopic=251
New Mandala goes …….
5555555
That is the spirit!
Self-sufficient junta
Please remind me, Nganadeeleg, where I have expressed support for PPP/Samak.
Self-sufficient junta
The Thailand portion of this blog/forum would be rather boring without Jeru & Vichai.
Without them, I wonder whether Republican would manage to be self sufficient in sprouting his anti royal vitriol.
Also, Andrew has been rather quiet of late in his support of PPP(TRT) – perhaps he thinks that Samak is a self sufficient blowhard, and doesn’t need AW’s overt support.
Self-sufficient junta
Vichai is currently in his Jeru mode. Not sure what will prompt a switch back to Vichai. May be something to do with the moon.