Comments

  1. krid says:

    Jon, the drug war was perpetrated by the military and the police under Thaksin’s guidance, vehemently supported by the coup-condoning Bangkok middle class. It will be a cold day in hell before we see any investigation into the drug war, Tak Bai, Krue Sae, southern disappearances with any uniformed perpetrator being brought to justice. It doesn’t matter what any “enlightened liberals” have to say in these matters as their voice in the mass media has been effectively silenced by the ruling dictatorship (unless they speak out ONLY against Thaksin).
    Sonthi has shown that he’s a loose cannon (pun intended), having thought no further than order tanks to roll into Bangkok. His wavering in selecting a new c-in-c and regarding his political ambitions, his recent quoting of mass murderer Mao as a role model and numerous other statements over the past year show that he’s of very limited intelligence, overly ambitious without the ability to plan ahead, and thus very dangerous. The recent statements which have been give a scathing dissection in todays Bangkok Post editoral only again show how undifferentiated and one-sided his thinking is and how close his relationship with the criminal repressors of the people of Myanmar. And the unbridled power of such an individual is a clear and present danger for the democratic development of Thailand, whether this statement makes me an “enlightened liberal” or not.

  2. Sidh S. says:

    My apologies for mispelling your name all this time!
    Thanks for giving us the honor of responding to the discussions. I actually read your book – across three nights last year. I was really tempted to post comments on Yale’s website back then, but I thought others will do it anyway (which I understand they did – also in amazon which I did not check). I got drawn into this one in particular because, from my limited time in this blog (which is otherwise very excellent and intellectually stimulating), I gathered it was too fixated on the monarchy – almost a fetish, in fact. My deduction, from my postings, pointed to the fact that the Thai monarchy and its role is relatively unique in the context of democratic development in the country. ‘Developed democracies’ dealt with secular leftist-centrist-rightist politics; aspiring ‘democracies’ closer to home dealt directly with the armed forces or ‘paternistic parliamentary dictatorships’; while Thailand has the monarchy to ‘complicate’ things. Add HM the King’s very long career – outlasting each casts of characters from the multiple cycles of coups and elections – it is not really surprising. My wish is we could move on but I don’t think that will happen (as people are attracted – and entitled – to the exotic and novel!)!

    I will also admit that it is a long time since reading your book and details are now vague – but what particularly caught me was its familiarity as it is also a collection of rumours that I have heard through the years from the various echelons of Thai society (from the bureaucrat to the barber). It attempts to contextualize those rumours in the Thai political drama through the years. It also makes many big conclusions – many of which I don’t agree with (whether its on the issue of succession or the development of Thai democracy as commented upon). However, to be fair to you, I should read the book again (it will be some time before I get the time admittedly).

    I will say that your points on my comments are fair in that it reinforces the very different subjectivities between being ‘Thai’ and ‘non-Thai’. And, yes, my Thai perceptions may be coldly calculated and constructed by the Siamese-Thai elites (as it has been for hundreds of years – so it is culturally deep) – and you, a rationale, objective outsider is merely, rationally exposing them (which is fair enough). But, as stated, my main preoccupations is with ‘intent’ (and the resultant actions, consequences) – and from historical and contemporary evidences, I believe HM the King and the ‘cool heads’ in the Thai elites have the best Thai interests at heart. As another commentator has pointed out, at most they can be accused of being ‘overly protective’ (a practical, cultural fixation on ‘stability’ perhaps?)…

  3. Sidh S. says:

    I think nganadeeleg’s and Taxi Driver’s point on ‘stability’ is quite crucial. I have been pondering on that one for a very long time – especially in relationship to ‘military dictatorship’ vs. ‘democracy’ – and it can easily be called either way, in relation to HM the King’s role.

    Siamese-Thai history also provide numerous evidences of negotiations/compromises for the sake of stability and survival. I must stress, though, that the stability and survival has always been in the context of societal change (whether those factors were internal and/or external) – and that is why I believe the HM the King and the Thai elites always had ‘democracy’ in mind as the model to guarantee stability in the long term. I also believe that things will become more apparent with time (I also sense PMSurayud is being groomed to succeed PMPrem – and I think we should watch him very closely).

    Teth, I actually view the events of 1976 in that light of societal change. The fall of Saigon just occured a year before and many commentators thought Thailand will be the next ‘domino’ to fall to Communism. No doubt it is a very sad and violent saga in Thai history – and extreme fear and panic had a lot to do with what had occured. The fact that a controversial Buddhist monk got away with saying something along the line of “killing Communists is not bad karma” reflects the abnormal state of mind Thai society was in at that moment in time. The ruling elite thought that having let the US use Thailand as a launching pad to attack Vietnam, naturally they’ll seek revenge (with Russia’s full backing)… Cooler heads eventually spot conflicts between Russian and Chinese Communists and made the most of it to achieve Thai ‘stability’ (in many ways, it is rather predictable, really).

  4. serf says:

    The General who did everything in his power to ensure that Thailand has to put up with even more refugees, economic migrants, cross-border criminals, the drugs trade, malaria and other diseases. The Myanmar Junta is essentially too lazy to deal with its own problems, so it exports them to Thailand to deal with. The Thai Junta cooperates in that process in exchange for a few measily contracts and golf games. It may be a good deal for Thailand’s elite, but its a lousy deal for everyone else.

  5. Sidh S. says:

    If GenSonthi’s interview was for a Thai audience, here’s PMSurayud’s UN speech, with references to Myanmar, for the international audience:

    http://www.un.org/webcast/ga/62/2007/pdfs/thailand-en.pdf

  6. […] a brief account from an informed observer in northern Laos about the local aftermath of the alleged Vang Pao plot: Last June and July in Houaysay, and in the whole Bokeo province, political and military tensions […]

  7. jonfernquest says:

    As an example of meaningless gratuitious emotions, take this statement by Singapore’s Foreign Minister:

    Ministers of the 10-nation Association of Southeast Asian Nations, meeting at the United Nations in New York, were “***appalled to receive reports of automatic weapons being used”*** against protesters, Singapore Foreign Minister George Yeo said.
    http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601087&sid=ai5WDAVpiwiw&refer=home

    Singapore supports Than Shwe in everyway possible, providing medical facilities for him, a school for his grandson, a safe place for regime collaborators to access the outside world, funnel their money through and do business…he may have been “appalled” for the 30 seconds he was talking to the reporter, but action will not follow words and when the sound bite passes everyone will forget about it.

  8. Thanks for providing the transcript — I will refer to it in an upcoming post. At Jotman.com I have been collating various updates from Burma.

    General Sonthi must be asked to resign from any official capacity within the Thai state, that is, if Thailand wants to be regarded as an ethical or civilized nation.

    This is not about Sonthi anymore, it’s about Thailand.

  9. jonfernquest says:

    krid: “Not a word of protest against the actions of his murderous cronies in Naypyidaw. What does it matter if the words of the most powerful man in Thailand, whose exit from the stage is still in doubt, were meant (only) for a Thai audience? This individual will take the second most important cabinet post and might become PM through whatever means at his disposal…”

    I would much rather have Sonthi express his true thoughts on the matter than dissemble and put on a show so I could share emotions with him.

    What does it matter that it was for a Thai audience?

    Even though I wish Sonthi would go back to his barracks and be a good professional soldier and stop playing politics, he is a smart guy and everything he does has a purpose.

    I’m sure he figures that his audience would relate to what he is saying.
    Obviously the enlightened liberals who read blogs or English language newspapers devoted to current affairs in Thailand and Burma are offended by what he says, but he wasn’t addressing them.
    Maybe he screwed up and didn’t realise that his comments would be translated into English and splattered across this mornings op-ed section in the Bangkok Post, but I’m sure glad he says what he thinks.
    Democratically speaking the opinions of enlightened liberals certainly didn’t mean much during the drug wars when tough talks, death lists, and police bribes replaced the rule of reason, will they mean anything now?

  10. FarangBha says:

    “Unfortunately they also did not want the family tree I created which I thought was a wonderful illustration of the inbreeding and apparent results thereof.”

    Is there anywhere this is available online – or can it be posted somewhere; its something I’ve been looking for.

  11. col. jeru says:

    I am surprised and pleased that Paul Handley was obliged to respond to my poster. Maybe I’ll take the time to read Paul Handley’s book after all, if only to return the courtesy.

    But Paul Handley misunderstands my post. I do not dispute that there is a close ‘linkage’ between the military and the monarchy. But I submit that HMK after having realized the serious (past) threats to the monarchy from ambitious Generals, embarked thence on a deliberate policy of ‘nurturing’ and ‘nourishing’ good rapport with the military, to ensure that rising police and military generals are strongly loyal to the monarchy. Which policy, I submit, was not only good sense but was very successful which accounted for HMK Bhumibhol’s long reign.

    But that was not enough. HMK must have realized that he needs a counterforce against the military, lest Thailand degenerate to the same fascistic oppressive military government form, similar to neighbor Burma. Hence HMK too needed, in much stronger urgency, to develop Thailand’s democracy. HMK’s needed a well-developed Thailand democracy, with strong checks & balances institutions, to prevent the rise of military dictatorship in Thailand.

  12. nganadeeleg says:

    Paul Handley: Thanks for the explanation about the pictures.
    I admit I was one of those who were critical of your book before I had even read it (based mainly on reading all the reviews over at amazon).

    In case you missed it, here is a thread discussing your book, which shows my opinion before and after reading the book:
    http://rspas.anu.edu.au/rmap/newmandala/2006/07/28/the-king-never-smiles/#comments

    I am starting to wonder if the time is near where the 8am & 6pm cultivation of the royal image will start to do more harm than good, particularly having seen reports of plans to make traffic stop at those times – that seems like overkill IMO.

  13. Trev Butler says:

    May I register my disgust of the comments by Sonthi, I worry this might be the fate of my beloved Thailand in the future, I am visting there in late December, but now have decided to only spend one night, and travel onto the Philippines instead. Also please do not forget about the Karen tribe in Burma, who have been so victomised so much, by the Bumese junta.

  14. krid says:

    The interview again reveals the categories Sonthi in thinking in: “restore order”, “repress dissent”, “power struggle/power sharing between police and military”, “no outside (foreign) interference and control”, “business interests and gas supplies”. Not a word of protest against the actions of his murderous cronies in Naypyidaw. What does it matter if the words of the most powerful man in Thailand, whose exit from the stage is still in doubt, were meant (only) for a Thai audience? This individual will take the second most important cabinet post and might become PM through whatever means at his disposal. Then again, one can only imagine what PM Thaksin today would have done about his crony capitalism interests in Myanmar.

  15. Rasmuncher says:

    The only solution to the crisis in Burma is that the people resume power.

    The Burmese army are Burmese with families in Burma who can apply pressure for these serving members of the military to resign or defect.

    Please ask all Burmese people to shun other Burmese people who have a serving member in the army until they resign.

    Without an army, the Generals have no power.

  16. Awzar Thi says:

    Nicholas — you missed some:

    “Although it was the first significant protest in more than a decade [in August]… it is largely over.” — Aung Zaw, in Asia Sentinel, September 3

    August 29 wire report — “Josef Silverstein, a Myanmar expert and retired Rutgers University professor, said that under such circumstances the current wave of protests could not last…”

    And Robert Taylor said on September 23 that “I don’t see the regime is tottering”.

    As Robert Taylor never gets anything right, hopefully that will be the kiss of death for the generals.

    So much for the experts.

  17. […] post is a follow-up to the New Mandala interview with Paul Handley posted on 19 September […]

  18. […] Junkie*s wrote an interesting post today on Travel warnings: BurmaHere’s a quick […]

  19. Dickie Simpkins says:

    Negative comments on the ‘Thai Junta’ aside, what is the current situation in Burma like?

    Is there any of our friends in Burma who have any updates for us?

    Or is there anyone here who can inform the web or blog sites from where we can get more information regarding Burma?

    On the Thai Junta: Anything in Burma won’t affect here, the joke of the junta here promised elections in one year, and they are delivering it. They didn’t get many achievements in the past year, and they will probably just slowly move into the background.

    I look forward to replies on web sites with information from Burma.

  20. Teth says:

    Nganadeeleg, it is not so much any insightful new evidence that Handley produces. In fact, I dare say he produces nothing which is not already known to Thais. What is staggeringly different, however, is how he assembles it all as a critique of HMK.

    Part of what makes Handley’s argument and presentation of evidence powerful is how there is no debate regarding this issue in Thailand. Sidh is right to say my main source with regards to HMK is this book, since I am young and haven’t been able to “live” as much politics as he has. Yet so far, I’ve been able to clearly distinguish between what is rumor in Handley’s book and what is actual fact. Important facts, especially ones regarding 6 October, can be found documented by other sources and the silence regarding the monarchy in that event is eerie for me, as a former enthusiastic royalist. Furthermore, the fact that the mainstream media mentions little about anything vaguely negative or ungod-like about HMK seem to suggest that there are somethings that are not said or mentioned.

    All in all, I would vouch for Handley’s factual accuracy in this case. I used to criticize the book as being based on rumors, but in actual fact, the rumors that are included are clearly explained as so. Even though Handley may occasionally try to spin a certain event to fit his argument, the book in its entirety has definitely convinced me that I was in fact brainwashed by propaganda and spin for the majority of my life. I was able to rationalize for HMK whilst reading Handley’s book up until the chapter of 6 October. There, I assumed he was simply lying, of course, that was until I did more research to verify his facts…