It is a shame that Thailand did not feel Burma as a threat, only because they want natural gas, oil, teak,gems and also want to maintain their exports, so is the other countries Malaysia, Singapore India, Bangladash, Cambodia, they all have different motives based on trade and also geographic position as landbridge to India, China Thailand for trade, that’s why China is coaxing Burma to Build those bridges. Behind the scene the Junta is not happy forking the expenses, but they need China for blocking the resolution. They deep down don’t like the Chinaman, they even sold Gas to China at a lower price and cheated India. Than Shwe is playing both countries, including the other Asean countries, that’s why those countries flip flopping on Junta’s mismanagement and abusing it’s own people with coercion at gunpoint. All these countries like China and India, knows the junta government consist of thugs, India did not make a big fuss about it because there are bigger deals, like building rail thru Burma, so they can ship their goods all over the globe cheaply. I want to ask Prof. why he did not advise US and the democratic leaders to use a different forum, he knew that Russia and China are going to Block the resolution. This Government is a rogue government who only cares for their businesses at the expense of it’s people. A cellphone cost $2 to 3000, a line phone same, cars, jaloppies start’s from $10,000, now only the people connected to the government gets license to import cars from abroad and sell it for $100,000, which a use sports car or jeep in US would cost $30,000 the most. Neighbouring countries let their people use motorcycles, but people in Burma has to ride in the Busses packed like sardines, overflowing and hanging outside. The indignities young women have to suffer packed inside with man. Majority of Burmese man are gentlemen, they treat women as their sister, mother or aunt. The Junta ban the use of mortocycles. Sanctions are hurting the people, but the Junta is the main culprit of all woes in Burma.
Oh nganadeeleg! Thank you so very much for taking the time to save me from Thaksin lovers. If your voice wasn’t here, I’d have absolutely no idea that Thaksin was a a bad guy at the head of a nasty government. My only source of information on Thailand is NM, so your moderating and correcting voice provides a little heard perspective. Yeah, right….
It looks like Dr. Rigg’s work deals with the informal urban sector and its overlap with agriculture. Couldn’t think of anything more relevant to contemporary events. All his work seems to be at Chula’s library. (Thanks too, since his 1992 collected volume on irrigation addresses my research topic for the upcoming Mon history conference at Chula in September, but my focus is on the relation between warfare (c. 1400), demography, and rice cultivation, not cosmology, he might have more pubs on the premodern period but the biblio on his website is only recent pubs)
Shouldn’t the one making accusations provide the evidence first? This is not the first time you have made such accusations then I answer and you ignore me, but only repeat the accusation again.
I personally have never supported a or any “war on drugs”. I disagree with the killing of any suspect where the killing was not in self-defence. Instances where government officials claim self-defence should ideally be investigated – ideally, each murder in the South should be investigated as well.
Are we satisfied? I hope I don’t have to respond to the same question next time.
I will hold my breath for Bangkok Pundit, Patiwat and Tosakan and they can take all the time they need to wrestle with their conscience (more difficult than wrestling with crocodiles I am told).
[…] keep up on events at Manchester City since the Thaksin takeover. Previous New Mandala contributer Thad Williamson has created a new blog called┬ Thaksin Skeptic: Supporting Manchester City, Supporting Human Rights. […]
[…] how we love those rural voters when they have no choice: The day after the Aug 19 referendum has been declared a public holiday, to encourage rural voters […]
In the near future, Thai intelligence agents, in concert with agents from the Vieng Republic, forcibly extradite Thaksin back to Thailand to face charges. When his case comes to trial, the judge says, “If you make a true statement, I will sentence to 40 years; if you make a false statement, I will sentence you to death.” Thaksin speaks a single sentence and the judge sets him free.
Tell me, what did Thaksin say?
(Hint: It has nothing to do with Khmer voodoo.)
this is still on-going?? goodness…we all know how well each of the 2 countries are, racists, democratic or otherwise & if we are well-travelled between the 2 countries.
all i have to say is, singaporeans are not as laid back as the aussies. nothing bad about that but i certainly do not like to be called laid back aka lazy, slow poke etc etc for nothing. haha!
I would agree with Democratus if there was a more up to date, less liberal version of the universal declaration of human rights. I think if there is a good system then monsters would not be made of people like Thaksin, irrespective of how tainted he is with Singaporean lucre!
Democratus: Whilst I agree with your view that all human rights abuses are to be abhorred, I also frankly admit that I am lazy and a realist.
I therefore have chosen to devote my limited time to countering the Thaksin love-in here at New Mandala, lest readers fall under the spell of the likes of AW & Republican and somehow believe that Thaksin could do no wrong because he was electorally popular.
And to Tosakan (Fonzi the Shark to his fans) who ‘for the record’ never applauded Thaksin for anything but has one blogsite dedicated to insult The Nation and Bangkok Post, while defending angrily Thaksin’s right to be ‘innocent’ until proven otherwise, my personal congratulations. If this is how you do NOT applaud Thaksin, your sincere applause must be truly deafening.
Thaksin himself during the whole anti-drugs campaign from start to finish was prominently in
the limelight, to make certain that the Thai people know he was the master maestro behind the deadly bloody horrific war against the very poor nearly illiterate village SUSPECTS. Thaksin will not be denied his TV credits and hurrahs for the anti-drugs Tosakan . . . so why do you persist to remove the extrajudicial gloss from the anti-drugs hero and star?
Bangkok Pundit and Patiwat, what says you both about Thaksin’s courage, bravery and heroism during the anti-drugs war?
Quotes:
“Between February and April 2003 the Thaksin government incited police and public officials to organize and endorse murder in the name of ridding the country of drugs. Through a series of official orders and public statements, the government pushed officials to massively overstep their normal authority. It also set up numerous positive and negative incentives, including promises of financial rewards and promotions, and threats of transfers and dismissals. ”
“. . . The Prime Minister (Thaksin) boosted incentives in two sets of regulations issued on February 11. One of those was the Prime Minister’s Office Regulations on Bonuses and Rewards Relating to Narcotics (No. 3). This document amended two earlier reward regimes, and effectively encouraged the murder of drug suspects by providing grades of bonuses where the most efficient and expedient means for officials to be rewarded was simply to kill the accused:
Article 18 of the Prime Minister’s Office Regulations on Bonuses and Rewards Relating to Narcotics BE 2537 (1994), which had been amended by the Prime Minister’s Office Regulations on Bonuses and Rewards Relating to Narcotics (No. 2) BE 2540 (1997)… shall be replaced by the following statements:
“Article 18: The bonus shall be given when officials proceed with a notified case leading to arrest according to the following rules and conditions:
(1) In a case where both the alleged offender is arrested and the exhibited narcotics are seized, if the value calculated based on the quantity of narcotics does not exceed 1000 Baht, each case shall be paid not exceeding 1000 Baht, after the Public Prosecutor has issued a prosecution order. If the case falls under Section 92 of the Narcotics Control Act BE 2522 (1979) and Section 17 of the Royal Ordinance of the Control on the Use of Volatile Substances BE 2533 (1990), the bonus shall not be paid.
(2) In a case where the alleged offender is arrested and the exhibited narcotics are seized, if the value calculated based on the quantity of narcotics exceeds 1000 Baht
(a) In a case where the Public Prosecutor issues a prosecution order, the bonus calculated based on the quantity of narcotics may be paid in half before the Public Prosecutor issues a prosecution order. The remaining amount is to be paid in full when the Public Prosecutor has issued a prosecution order.
(b) The bonus calculated based on the quantity of narcotics shall be paid only in half if the Public Prosecutor has issued a non-prosecution order, or ceased the proceedings.
(3) In a case where both the alleged offender is arrested and the exhibited narcotics are seized, but the alleged offender loses his life during the arrest or thereafter, if the value calculated based on the quantity of narcotics exceeds 1000 Baht, the bonus shall be paid according to the quantity of narcotics when the Public Prosecutor has ceased the proceedings.
(4) In a case where only the exhibited narcotics are seized after the Public Prosecutor has stayed the inquiry, issued a prosecution or non-prosecution order, if the value calculated based on the quantity of narcotics exceeds 1000 Baht, only half of the bonus shall be paid.”
(Unofficial translation of article 4, italics added to subsection 3)
At later dates, certain rewards were increased so that, for instance, a state official seizing property that had been purchased with drug money could get up to 40 per cent of its value . . . ”
Thaksin Shinawatra gave shoot-to-kill orders is the reason the number of kills reached 2,500 during the first three months Jan-Mar2003
during Thaksin’s anti-yaa baa madness.
“There is not one piece of evidence documented proving that Thaksin was telling the police and military to murder drug dealers.”
Thaksin as a PM may not directly tell the police and military to murder, but he did encourage those guys (and the justice system) to act in that way. The discourse on illicit drugs has been around for 50 years, but it was heightened during his administration.
War on Drugs was a bad idea from the beginning. Giving bonus points to the police and police stations based on the number of arrests, plus more “commission” if the cases went on trails, and properties being confiscated. Why should a (poor) person is sentenced for 50 years for selling 20 pills? Is this how the world supposed to work? What is wrong with the justice system and social perception of drugs in Thailand? This is still ongoing – as many people are still jailed and sentenced without fair trials (not to mention the 2500 killings). Those that are jailed and dead are the poorest sectors of the society, deprived of social and cultural capital to speak for themselves. I remember a couple years ago I was watching TV in Bangkok on the killing of Hmong guy in Chiang Mai, and the police were raiding the house that belong to him and his family. The news was talking about how the guy was a drug dealer and the police would confiscate his house and property. His wife and kids were in tears. No questions asked regarding how these assets were acquired. It was already a given that if the guy was involved in drugs, automatically he was evil and everything he/his family own must be confiscated as they deserved to be “punished”.
Somehow along the way, drugs are demonized and people who deal/trade drugs are stigmatized and do not deserve to be human, that even the most progressive academics and social activists in this country are not too keen to look into this matter.
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Interview with Professor David Steinberg
It is a shame that Thailand did not feel Burma as a threat, only because they want natural gas, oil, teak,gems and also want to maintain their exports, so is the other countries Malaysia, Singapore India, Bangladash, Cambodia, they all have different motives based on trade and also geographic position as landbridge to India, China Thailand for trade, that’s why China is coaxing Burma to Build those bridges. Behind the scene the Junta is not happy forking the expenses, but they need China for blocking the resolution. They deep down don’t like the Chinaman, they even sold Gas to China at a lower price and cheated India. Than Shwe is playing both countries, including the other Asean countries, that’s why those countries flip flopping on Junta’s mismanagement and abusing it’s own people with coercion at gunpoint. All these countries like China and India, knows the junta government consist of thugs, India did not make a big fuss about it because there are bigger deals, like building rail thru Burma, so they can ship their goods all over the globe cheaply. I want to ask Prof. why he did not advise US and the democratic leaders to use a different forum, he knew that Russia and China are going to Block the resolution. This Government is a rogue government who only cares for their businesses at the expense of it’s people. A cellphone cost $2 to 3000, a line phone same, cars, jaloppies start’s from $10,000, now only the people connected to the government gets license to import cars from abroad and sell it for $100,000, which a use sports car or jeep in US would cost $30,000 the most. Neighbouring countries let their people use motorcycles, but people in Burma has to ride in the Busses packed like sardines, overflowing and hanging outside. The indignities young women have to suffer packed inside with man. Majority of Burmese man are gentlemen, they treat women as their sister, mother or aunt. The Junta ban the use of mortocycles. Sanctions are hurting the people, but the Junta is the main culprit of all woes in Burma.
Sufficiency democracy in action
Democratus: Thanks for your kind words – glad to know I am appreciated.
Sufficiency democracy in action
Oh nganadeeleg! Thank you so very much for taking the time to save me from Thaksin lovers. If your voice wasn’t here, I’d have absolutely no idea that Thaksin was a a bad guy at the head of a nasty government. My only source of information on Thailand is NM, so your moderating and correcting voice provides a little heard perspective. Yeah, right….
A new look for NM
I love the new photos. The one with the farmers is great. Its good how the pictures change on different pages. More photos would be great!
Interview with Professor Jonathan Rigg
Thanks for drawing attention to Dr. Rigg with this interview.
Dr. Pasuk at Chula’s recent essay and lecture on the political impasse that Thailand currently faces refers over and over again to the informal urban sector, even drawing overlapping arrows between this sector and the agriculture sector in a pie chart.
It looks like Dr. Rigg’s work deals with the informal urban sector and its overlap with agriculture. Couldn’t think of anything more relevant to contemporary events. All his work seems to be at Chula’s library. (Thanks too, since his 1992 collected volume on irrigation addresses my research topic for the upcoming Mon history conference at Chula in September, but my focus is on the relation between warfare (c. 1400), demography, and rice cultivation, not cosmology, he might have more pubs on the premodern period but the biblio on his website is only recent pubs)
Sufficiency democracy in action
Vichai:
Shouldn’t the one making accusations provide the evidence first? This is not the first time you have made such accusations then I answer and you ignore me, but only repeat the accusation again.
I personally have never supported a or any “war on drugs”. I disagree with the killing of any suspect where the killing was not in self-defence. Instances where government officials claim self-defence should ideally be investigated – ideally, each murder in the South should be investigated as well.
Are we satisfied? I hope I don’t have to respond to the same question next time.
Sufficiency democracy in action
I will hold my breath for Bangkok Pundit, Patiwat and Tosakan and they can take all the time they need to wrestle with their conscience (more difficult than wrestling with crocodiles I am told).
English version of new constitution
forward to the past?
Selling City out?
[…] keep up on events at Manchester City since the Thaksin takeover. Previous New Mandala contributer Thad Williamson has created a new blog called┬ Thaksin Skeptic: Supporting Manchester City, Supporting Human Rights. […]
Sufficiency democracy in action
[…] how we love those rural voters when they have no choice: The day after the Aug 19 referendum has been declared a public holiday, to encourage rural voters […]
Sufficiency democracy in action
Now for something more light-hearted: a riddle.
In the near future, Thai intelligence agents, in concert with agents from the Vieng Republic, forcibly extradite Thaksin back to Thailand to face charges. When his case comes to trial, the judge says, “If you make a true statement, I will sentence to 40 years; if you make a false statement, I will sentence you to death.” Thaksin speaks a single sentence and the judge sets him free.
Tell me, what did Thaksin say?
(Hint: It has nothing to do with Khmer voodoo.)
“Lee Kuan Yew – ANU is not for you!”
this is still on-going?? goodness…we all know how well each of the 2 countries are, racists, democratic or otherwise & if we are well-travelled between the 2 countries.
all i have to say is, singaporeans are not as laid back as the aussies. nothing bad about that but i certainly do not like to be called laid back aka lazy, slow poke etc etc for nothing. haha!
Sufficiency democracy in action
I would agree with Democratus if there was a more up to date, less liberal version of the universal declaration of human rights. I think if there is a good system then monsters would not be made of people like Thaksin, irrespective of how tainted he is with Singaporean lucre!
Sufficiency democracy in action
Democratus: Whilst I agree with your view that all human rights abuses are to be abhorred, I also frankly admit that I am lazy and a realist.
I therefore have chosen to devote my limited time to countering the Thaksin love-in here at New Mandala, lest readers fall under the spell of the likes of AW & Republican and somehow believe that Thaksin could do no wrong because he was electorally popular.
Sufficiency democracy in action
Dear nganadeeleg, thank you for your frank statement of your acceptance of human rights abuses by the military junta. That is clear now.
Of course, if you had read my posting carefully, you’d know that I was not asking about the coup. I set out the questions.
My view: all human rights abuses are to be abhored.
Mangrais of Kengtung
Write to me for info on Sao Saimong and G. H. Luce correspondence.
Sufficiency democracy in action
And to Tosakan (Fonzi the Shark to his fans) who ‘for the record’ never applauded Thaksin for anything but has one blogsite dedicated to insult The Nation and Bangkok Post, while defending angrily Thaksin’s right to be ‘innocent’ until proven otherwise, my personal congratulations. If this is how you do NOT applaud Thaksin, your sincere applause must be truly deafening.
Thaksin himself during the whole anti-drugs campaign from start to finish was prominently in
the limelight, to make certain that the Thai people know he was the master maestro behind the deadly bloody horrific war against the very poor nearly illiterate village SUSPECTS. Thaksin will not be denied his TV credits and hurrahs for the anti-drugs Tosakan . . . so why do you persist to remove the extrajudicial gloss from the anti-drugs hero and star?
Bangkok Pundit and Patiwat, what says you both about Thaksin’s courage, bravery and heroism during the anti-drugs war?
Sufficiency democracy in action
Pattisserie now you are deliberately passing on misinformation and lies in this forum! (I suspect Fonzi’s hand in this misinformation)
http://www.article2.org/mainfile.php/0203/86/
Quotes:
“Between February and April 2003 the Thaksin government incited police and public officials to organize and endorse murder in the name of ridding the country of drugs. Through a series of official orders and public statements, the government pushed officials to massively overstep their normal authority. It also set up numerous positive and negative incentives, including promises of financial rewards and promotions, and threats of transfers and dismissals. ”
“. . . The Prime Minister (Thaksin) boosted incentives in two sets of regulations issued on February 11. One of those was the Prime Minister’s Office Regulations on Bonuses and Rewards Relating to Narcotics (No. 3). This document amended two earlier reward regimes, and effectively encouraged the murder of drug suspects by providing grades of bonuses where the most efficient and expedient means for officials to be rewarded was simply to kill the accused:
Article 18 of the Prime Minister’s Office Regulations on Bonuses and Rewards Relating to Narcotics BE 2537 (1994), which had been amended by the Prime Minister’s Office Regulations on Bonuses and Rewards Relating to Narcotics (No. 2) BE 2540 (1997)… shall be replaced by the following statements:
“Article 18: The bonus shall be given when officials proceed with a notified case leading to arrest according to the following rules and conditions:
(1) In a case where both the alleged offender is arrested and the exhibited narcotics are seized, if the value calculated based on the quantity of narcotics does not exceed 1000 Baht, each case shall be paid not exceeding 1000 Baht, after the Public Prosecutor has issued a prosecution order. If the case falls under Section 92 of the Narcotics Control Act BE 2522 (1979) and Section 17 of the Royal Ordinance of the Control on the Use of Volatile Substances BE 2533 (1990), the bonus shall not be paid.
(2) In a case where the alleged offender is arrested and the exhibited narcotics are seized, if the value calculated based on the quantity of narcotics exceeds 1000 Baht
(a) In a case where the Public Prosecutor issues a prosecution order, the bonus calculated based on the quantity of narcotics may be paid in half before the Public Prosecutor issues a prosecution order. The remaining amount is to be paid in full when the Public Prosecutor has issued a prosecution order.
(b) The bonus calculated based on the quantity of narcotics shall be paid only in half if the Public Prosecutor has issued a non-prosecution order, or ceased the proceedings.
(3) In a case where both the alleged offender is arrested and the exhibited narcotics are seized, but the alleged offender loses his life during the arrest or thereafter, if the value calculated based on the quantity of narcotics exceeds 1000 Baht, the bonus shall be paid according to the quantity of narcotics when the Public Prosecutor has ceased the proceedings.
(4) In a case where only the exhibited narcotics are seized after the Public Prosecutor has stayed the inquiry, issued a prosecution or non-prosecution order, if the value calculated based on the quantity of narcotics exceeds 1000 Baht, only half of the bonus shall be paid.”
(Unofficial translation of article 4, italics added to subsection 3)
At later dates, certain rewards were increased so that, for instance, a state official seizing property that had been purchased with drug money could get up to 40 per cent of its value . . . ”
Thaksin Shinawatra gave shoot-to-kill orders is the reason the number of kills reached 2,500 during the first three months Jan-Mar2003
during Thaksin’s anti-yaa baa madness.
Sufficiency democracy in action
Tosakin:
“There is not one piece of evidence documented proving that Thaksin was telling the police and military to murder drug dealers.”
Thaksin as a PM may not directly tell the police and military to murder, but he did encourage those guys (and the justice system) to act in that way. The discourse on illicit drugs has been around for 50 years, but it was heightened during his administration.
War on Drugs was a bad idea from the beginning. Giving bonus points to the police and police stations based on the number of arrests, plus more “commission” if the cases went on trails, and properties being confiscated. Why should a (poor) person is sentenced for 50 years for selling 20 pills? Is this how the world supposed to work? What is wrong with the justice system and social perception of drugs in Thailand? This is still ongoing – as many people are still jailed and sentenced without fair trials (not to mention the 2500 killings). Those that are jailed and dead are the poorest sectors of the society, deprived of social and cultural capital to speak for themselves. I remember a couple years ago I was watching TV in Bangkok on the killing of Hmong guy in Chiang Mai, and the police were raiding the house that belong to him and his family. The news was talking about how the guy was a drug dealer and the police would confiscate his house and property. His wife and kids were in tears. No questions asked regarding how these assets were acquired. It was already a given that if the guy was involved in drugs, automatically he was evil and everything he/his family own must be confiscated as they deserved to be “punished”.
Somehow along the way, drugs are demonized and people who deal/trade drugs are stigmatized and do not deserve to be human, that even the most progressive academics and social activists in this country are not too keen to look into this matter.
A new look for NM
I personally like this new lean minimalist look.