How utterly bigotted. To think that the Thai people would bring shame on an english football club. I would think a bunch of english football hooligans running riot swearing their mouths off and sticking two fingers at opposing teams could do nothing but bring great shame on the Thai people and even Thaksin. If anything, Thaksin really ought to think twice about this venture because it can only bring shame on Thailand and Thai people.
I have reread my comment and don’t see that I implied Thaksin’s purchase of MCFC would benefit Thai people. I don’t think it will. in fact, I don’t even think it will benefit Thaksin. I see it as evidence that he has not managed to conquer the egotistical approach that was his doom once already. I don’t have enough interest in the issue to read or essay or comment further. I don’t think that should prohibit me from commenting on the portion that was published. If you were gneral Sonthi, you could arrest me, but (I hope) you are not.
nganadeeleg,
When will the Thaksin obsessives finally see that an argument against the coup is not the same as Thaksin worship. Alas, i already know the answer: Too late. But just because you welcomed a military dictatorship doesn’t mean you are going to like it. Let’s see if you are singing the same tune in six months.
I thought that Thaksin should have been banned from office during the original asset trial, now seven or so years ago. I’m not opposed to convicting him of crimes and jailing him if the evidence indicates that he is guilty. I would not be surprised if he is. I would throw a small party if Newin or a few others met justice.
However, to claim that Thaksin is the devil and others are good, when the difference between their actions is indiscernable is hipocracy and fraud.
Do you realy belive that Banharn, Chavalit, and the current junta are really that different? Why don’t we pursue the Klong Tan Dam incident, which seems on the face of it far, far worse than the Ratchada land purchase, for example. Or is that one OK because Suwat is now anti-Thaksin?
Do you think it is fair that Thaksin faces ten years in prison for failure to disclose assets when a horde of Thai politicians and military figures have looted this country into poverty and laughed all the way to the bank. Look, I don’t care if Thaksin gets hit twice as hard as the others, I just would like to see the result based on justice not retribution.
One of the best things that could have happened, in my mind, would have been to prove that Thaksin’s was a criminal regime in an open honest way that would have convinced those that had not already converted. That hasn’t happened.
Yes, it will be easy to pin a few crimes on Thaksin. Fine. I will shed no tears. But keep in mind that this level of scrutiny would have found an equal amount of crimes investigating virtually any government Thailand has ever had – including the current one. In fact the investigations surely would have found more against Thaksin, but it seems that many of the issues are off limits. The interest seems to be only in crimes that convict Thaksin alone.
This is a political purge, pure and simple. That fact that the victim may desreve it would only be relevenat if he deserved it more than the purgers.
[…] eggs.”┬ (For previous New Mandala┬ comment on Thaksin’s nickname – Maew -┬ go to my post of June 2006).┬ But, of course, “balls” is probably a better translation than eggs, and […]
Observer, please read the essay before passing judgment on what you think my concerns are.
For the record though, rest assured that I fully recognize that the welfare of Thailand as a nation ranks way, way higher on the scale of importance than my favorite soccer team and many other things beside. At the same time, my primary audience for this piece (it was written for a newsletter for City fans) consists of people who honestly care a lot more about City than they do about Thailand or many other places in the world (a fact I don’t condemn–it’s human nature to care more about the things that are most immediately involved in your life than those that are distant), so yes the piece is a delicate balancing act. But I did see the article as an opportunity to introduce those same readers to at least some of the issues in Thailand, albeit in a very preliminary way (I am certainly a novice myself).
I’m curious though about your implicit argument that Thaksin’s buying the club will be in the “best interest of Thai people.” Really? How does that work? If you could make a good case for that, I would be very interested to hear it.
The best case I can think of would be someone arguing from what Andrew Walker recently described as an “anti-coup/anti-Thaksin” position that post-coup prospects for democracy in Thailand woud be strengthened if Thaksin was no longer on the scene because he is too much of a lightning rod at this point and because the military will not yield power if they think he is coming back. That is the kind of argument I had in mind in the extract that is on the site.
But if there are other arguments to the effect that Thaksin’s buying Manchester City is going to hasten the end of military rule in Thailand, I’d be glad to hear them.
A number of commentators here continue with this tripe about how no-one was watching and criticising Thaksino until the good and great finally got on their get-rid-of-Thaksin horses. There were very many academics who pointed out the faults with Thaksin and his regime. Tons of articles by Thais and foreign observers.
When those same academics turn their critical gaze to the military junta, its puppet masters in the palace and the ass-lickers all around, they feel that it’s somehow unfair or unreasonable. A bit like being “pro-coup and pro-democracy,” the memories are selective and the motives blatant.
I plead guilty to only having read the extract. But I am only a blog commenter, not an academic. That’s the way blog culture often works.
I accept your point that MCFC should not be a vehicle for furthering Thailand’s politics, but after all it is just a football team. I apologize if my concerns for Thailand’s poor may be greater than for a foriegn football club. But this is afterall a blog on Asia.
It is a difficult task to mix discussion of your pet football club with controversial politics. You may have done it well in the full article. However, the quote that i cited does make it appear that your concern is not the best interest of Thai people, but the image of your MCFC.
Yes, Thaksin has many harsh critics. I have been one. But the presence of critics and accustations is not by itself a cause for banishment. There are many harsh critics of the junta and new constitution and would be more if they weren’t repressed. But I guess that’s OK as long as they don’t covet your football team.
Anon & Observer: The junta’s big mistake was not freezing his assets sooner – it might have alleviated a lot of problems in the meantime.
We also have to remember that a freeze is not confiscation (yet).
Will you continue to be so forgiving of Thaksin if it also turns out that he and his family have spirited funds away abroad, and not fully disclosed assets (again)?
Taxi Driver: Let’s not get worked up about 1 month – I just allowed a bit of extra time to allow for those idiotic (or worse?) monks calling for a state religion.
Of course I want the military to get out of politics, and it’s a bum deal that the generals or a Thaksin puppet seems to be the only choice.
I’m not saying your choice to reject the draft constitution is wrong, but it does carry some risk – Do you want to bring on the final confrontation now, or would it be best to leave that battle for another day?
The last thing I want to see is Thaksin riding back into town as the white knight, which I think is a possibility if everything blows up now. (IMO, Thaksin , or one of his puppets, being the hero would be worse in the long run than to let things slide for a while).
My reasons are: The CDA does seem to be making some sensible choices, the poor are now firmly on the agenda, peoples eyes are being opened (including inside Thailand), and hopefully the electorate will become more discerning over time so there is the possibility that final battle may not even be necessary.
(and, if I’m wrong, the final battle will only be delayed in any case)
It would also be helpful if academics and the media could pressure the junta into releasing the alternative revised 1997 constitution so the people can have a clear choice.
Observer, I find your comment puzzling, because it completely misrepresents my position and my intentions.
Did you read the article or just the extract? In the article I make it perfectly clear that I think the coup was unjust and that ultimate legitimacy in a democratic society does come from the ballot box. If Thaksin wants to return to politics and the Thai electorate wants to re-elect him, that is fine by me.
I just don’t think MCFC should be a vehicle for furthering that project. That’s bad for the club, and I also would question whether having a a very wealth man leverage ownership of a sports team into political capital would be a healthy precedent for Thailand (or anyone else).
I do also make the point that if Thaksin were to go the opposite path and simply sink all his energies into running the club, that development should actually placate harsh critics of Thaksin who oppose his vision for Thailand, precisely because he’ll be running a football club, not a country.
That point does not and is not intended to deny the moral right of Thais to elect who they choose, it’s simply an analytic point that recognizes the political reality that Thaksin has many harsh critics who believe his vision for Thai society was/is problematic. THOSE people conceivably should be among the happiest if Thaksin spends the rest of his days watching football, hiring coaches, and signing players.
Anon your anosmia does not have to be a permanent impairment . . . all you have to do is to unglue your nose from the Thaksin backside once a while to get a dose of fresh oxygen in your nasal cavities. Maybe that would clear too the brain befuddlement you suffer about why it is necessary to bring Thaksin Shinawatra to account for the many alleged criminal corruption committed during his rule.
In South Korea I will remind you Anon that already two of their ex-Prime Ministers, Roh and Chun, were jailed for corruption. Thailand too should be able to succeed in jailing its more corrupt more dangerous ex-Prime Minister Thaksin Shinawatra because his corruption, had certainly cost the Kingdom of Thailand much more than the relative money value suggests.
Ngarn, I distinctly recall you saying before that end-of-2007 was your deadline. Now its end of Jan-08? Its a slippery slope you’re on.
The military wants you to think they are acting as an interim government, taking power to ‘prepare the country for the next election (without Thaksin)’. In reality they took power to protect their own & their allies’ interests. They have taken very concrete steps to entrench their power and interests. Evidence include the propsed senate structure, the increased power of ISOC, the appointment of military reps in every changwat adminitration, the increase in the military budget, and the proposed council to resolve future crises (whatever its officially called) stacked with generals and ex-generals.
Why is it that generals deserve to be in these positions in our society, Ngarn? They are like the goddamn mafia, can’t you see that? We need to be rid of them from politics, not have more of them.
might be doing Thais and Thai democracy a favor, precisely by taking Thaksin and his problematic vision of a corporate-managed society off their hands.
I am sure the Thai electorate does not need Thad Williamson telling them how to vote. It is amazingly arrogant to tell the citizens of a country what is best for them, when it appears the real motiive is protecting a lousy football team.
Perhaps he would like to provide a few examples of how military governments have been better for the countries of the world than democratically elected pro-business ones. Or perhaps he could enlighten me as to how a legacy of military coups have done Thai democracy favors – as if that was really his concern at all.
I’m sorry if his favorite football team may be tarnished by this whole thing, he seems to have let this issue unbalance his sense of proportionality.
If it turns out that he is under the age of 14, I take this all back.
If the Pakistan military dictatorship model is going to be used as it is so instructive for other military dictatorships, I suggest that learners first try to figure out why life here is such a mess.
And Thaksin has stated in uncertain terms in public how many times now, that he has retired from Thai politics? Heck, he’s been banned from Thai politics.
The junta is actually pulling him back into politics. Instead of letting him ride off into retirement and manage a football club, it insists on freezing all of his assets, including those assets gained before he became Prime Minister. What practical choice does he have but to fight the junta?
Apparently jeru, the Constitutional Tribunal failed to reckon that the big void they created in Thai politics by eliminating the most popular political party in Thai democratic history would so quickly be filled by jeru and and his yellow-shirted kind enamored to that distinctive military boot aroma.
Who appointed the Tribunal? The military. Whose enemy did the Tribunal try? The military’s. Who issued the law with which the Tribunal’s judgement was made? The military. Whose legal principles did the Tribunal use in making its judgement? The military’s.
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Selling City out?
How utterly bigotted. To think that the Thai people would bring shame on an english football club. I would think a bunch of english football hooligans running riot swearing their mouths off and sticking two fingers at opposing teams could do nothing but bring great shame on the Thai people and even Thaksin. If anything, Thaksin really ought to think twice about this venture because it can only bring shame on Thailand and Thai people.
Get real for god sake!
Selling City out?
Thad Williamson
I have reread my comment and don’t see that I implied Thaksin’s purchase of MCFC would benefit Thai people. I don’t think it will. in fact, I don’t even think it will benefit Thaksin. I see it as evidence that he has not managed to conquer the egotistical approach that was his doom once already. I don’t have enough interest in the issue to read or essay or comment further. I don’t think that should prohibit me from commenting on the portion that was published. If you were gneral Sonthi, you could arrest me, but (I hope) you are not.
nganadeeleg,
When will the Thaksin obsessives finally see that an argument against the coup is not the same as Thaksin worship. Alas, i already know the answer: Too late. But just because you welcomed a military dictatorship doesn’t mean you are going to like it. Let’s see if you are singing the same tune in six months.
I thought that Thaksin should have been banned from office during the original asset trial, now seven or so years ago. I’m not opposed to convicting him of crimes and jailing him if the evidence indicates that he is guilty. I would not be surprised if he is. I would throw a small party if Newin or a few others met justice.
However, to claim that Thaksin is the devil and others are good, when the difference between their actions is indiscernable is hipocracy and fraud.
Do you realy belive that Banharn, Chavalit, and the current junta are really that different? Why don’t we pursue the Klong Tan Dam incident, which seems on the face of it far, far worse than the Ratchada land purchase, for example. Or is that one OK because Suwat is now anti-Thaksin?
Do you think it is fair that Thaksin faces ten years in prison for failure to disclose assets when a horde of Thai politicians and military figures have looted this country into poverty and laughed all the way to the bank. Look, I don’t care if Thaksin gets hit twice as hard as the others, I just would like to see the result based on justice not retribution.
One of the best things that could have happened, in my mind, would have been to prove that Thaksin’s was a criminal regime in an open honest way that would have convinced those that had not already converted. That hasn’t happened.
Yes, it will be easy to pin a few crimes on Thaksin. Fine. I will shed no tears. But keep in mind that this level of scrutiny would have found an equal amount of crimes investigating virtually any government Thailand has ever had – including the current one. In fact the investigations surely would have found more against Thaksin, but it seems that many of the issues are off limits. The interest seems to be only in crimes that convict Thaksin alone.
This is a political purge, pure and simple. That fact that the victim may desreve it would only be relevenat if he deserved it more than the purgers.
The truth about Thaksin!
[…] eggs.”┬ (For previous New Mandala┬ comment on Thaksin’s nickname – Maew -┬ go to my post of June 2006).┬ But, of course, “balls” is probably a better translation than eggs, and […]
Mapping the post-coup academic landscape
nganadeeleg: Taxi drivers will be glad to have been upgraded. 🙂
In fact, blindly following anybody (Thaksin, PAD, CNS…) or any perspective is never an advisable approach.
Selling City out?
Observer, please read the essay before passing judgment on what you think my concerns are.
For the record though, rest assured that I fully recognize that the welfare of Thailand as a nation ranks way, way higher on the scale of importance than my favorite soccer team and many other things beside. At the same time, my primary audience for this piece (it was written for a newsletter for City fans) consists of people who honestly care a lot more about City than they do about Thailand or many other places in the world (a fact I don’t condemn–it’s human nature to care more about the things that are most immediately involved in your life than those that are distant), so yes the piece is a delicate balancing act. But I did see the article as an opportunity to introduce those same readers to at least some of the issues in Thailand, albeit in a very preliminary way (I am certainly a novice myself).
I’m curious though about your implicit argument that Thaksin’s buying the club will be in the “best interest of Thai people.” Really? How does that work? If you could make a good case for that, I would be very interested to hear it.
The best case I can think of would be someone arguing from what Andrew Walker recently described as an “anti-coup/anti-Thaksin” position that post-coup prospects for democracy in Thailand woud be strengthened if Thaksin was no longer on the scene because he is too much of a lightning rod at this point and because the military will not yield power if they think he is coming back. That is the kind of argument I had in mind in the extract that is on the site.
But if there are other arguments to the effect that Thaksin’s buying Manchester City is going to hasten the end of military rule in Thailand, I’d be glad to hear them.
Democratic double standards?
A number of commentators here continue with this tripe about how no-one was watching and criticising Thaksino until the good and great finally got on their get-rid-of-Thaksin horses. There were very many academics who pointed out the faults with Thaksin and his regime. Tons of articles by Thais and foreign observers.
When those same academics turn their critical gaze to the military junta, its puppet masters in the palace and the ass-lickers all around, they feel that it’s somehow unfair or unreasonable. A bit like being “pro-coup and pro-democracy,” the memories are selective and the motives blatant.
Selling City out?
Thad Williamson,
I plead guilty to only having read the extract. But I am only a blog commenter, not an academic. That’s the way blog culture often works.
I accept your point that MCFC should not be a vehicle for furthering Thailand’s politics, but after all it is just a football team. I apologize if my concerns for Thailand’s poor may be greater than for a foriegn football club. But this is afterall a blog on Asia.
It is a difficult task to mix discussion of your pet football club with controversial politics. You may have done it well in the full article. However, the quote that i cited does make it appear that your concern is not the best interest of Thai people, but the image of your MCFC.
Yes, Thaksin has many harsh critics. I have been one. But the presence of critics and accustations is not by itself a cause for banishment. There are many harsh critics of the junta and new constitution and would be more if they weren’t repressed. But I guess that’s OK as long as they don’t covet your football team.
Selling City out?
Anon & Observer: The junta’s big mistake was not freezing his assets sooner – it might have alleviated a lot of problems in the meantime.
We also have to remember that a freeze is not confiscation (yet).
Will you continue to be so forgiving of Thaksin if it also turns out that he and his family have spirited funds away abroad, and not fully disclosed assets (again)?
Mapping the post-coup academic landscape
Srithanonchai: My apologies to Taxi Drivers, but not to people who blindly support Thaksin no matter what he does wrong.
Mapping the post-coup academic landscape
Taxi Driver: Let’s not get worked up about 1 month – I just allowed a bit of extra time to allow for those idiotic (or worse?) monks calling for a state religion.
Of course I want the military to get out of politics, and it’s a bum deal that the generals or a Thaksin puppet seems to be the only choice.
I’m not saying your choice to reject the draft constitution is wrong, but it does carry some risk – Do you want to bring on the final confrontation now, or would it be best to leave that battle for another day?
The last thing I want to see is Thaksin riding back into town as the white knight, which I think is a possibility if everything blows up now. (IMO, Thaksin , or one of his puppets, being the hero would be worse in the long run than to let things slide for a while).
My reasons are: The CDA does seem to be making some sensible choices, the poor are now firmly on the agenda, peoples eyes are being opened (including inside Thailand), and hopefully the electorate will become more discerning over time so there is the possibility that final battle may not even be necessary.
(and, if I’m wrong, the final battle will only be delayed in any case)
It would also be helpful if academics and the media could pressure the junta into releasing the alternative revised 1997 constitution so the people can have a clear choice.
Selling City out?
Observer, I find your comment puzzling, because it completely misrepresents my position and my intentions.
Did you read the article or just the extract? In the article I make it perfectly clear that I think the coup was unjust and that ultimate legitimacy in a democratic society does come from the ballot box. If Thaksin wants to return to politics and the Thai electorate wants to re-elect him, that is fine by me.
I just don’t think MCFC should be a vehicle for furthering that project. That’s bad for the club, and I also would question whether having a a very wealth man leverage ownership of a sports team into political capital would be a healthy precedent for Thailand (or anyone else).
I do also make the point that if Thaksin were to go the opposite path and simply sink all his energies into running the club, that development should actually placate harsh critics of Thaksin who oppose his vision for Thailand, precisely because he’ll be running a football club, not a country.
That point does not and is not intended to deny the moral right of Thais to elect who they choose, it’s simply an analytic point that recognizes the political reality that Thaksin has many harsh critics who believe his vision for Thai society was/is problematic. THOSE people conceivably should be among the happiest if Thaksin spends the rest of his days watching football, hiring coaches, and signing players.
Selling City out?
Anon your anosmia does not have to be a permanent impairment . . . all you have to do is to unglue your nose from the Thaksin backside once a while to get a dose of fresh oxygen in your nasal cavities. Maybe that would clear too the brain befuddlement you suffer about why it is necessary to bring Thaksin Shinawatra to account for the many alleged criminal corruption committed during his rule.
In South Korea I will remind you Anon that already two of their ex-Prime Ministers, Roh and Chun, were jailed for corruption. Thailand too should be able to succeed in jailing its more corrupt more dangerous ex-Prime Minister Thaksin Shinawatra because his corruption, had certainly cost the Kingdom of Thailand much more than the relative money value suggests.
Mapping the post-coup academic landscape
Ngarn, I distinctly recall you saying before that end-of-2007 was your deadline. Now its end of Jan-08? Its a slippery slope you’re on.
The military wants you to think they are acting as an interim government, taking power to ‘prepare the country for the next election (without Thaksin)’. In reality they took power to protect their own & their allies’ interests. They have taken very concrete steps to entrench their power and interests. Evidence include the propsed senate structure, the increased power of ISOC, the appointment of military reps in every changwat adminitration, the increase in the military budget, and the proposed council to resolve future crises (whatever its officially called) stacked with generals and ex-generals.
Why is it that generals deserve to be in these positions in our society, Ngarn? They are like the goddamn mafia, can’t you see that? We need to be rid of them from politics, not have more of them.
Selling City out?
I am sure the Thai electorate does not need Thad Williamson telling them how to vote. It is amazingly arrogant to tell the citizens of a country what is best for them, when it appears the real motiive is protecting a lousy football team.
Perhaps he would like to provide a few examples of how military governments have been better for the countries of the world than democratically elected pro-business ones. Or perhaps he could enlighten me as to how a legacy of military coups have done Thai democracy favors – as if that was really his concern at all.
I’m sorry if his favorite football team may be tarnished by this whole thing, he seems to have let this issue unbalance his sense of proportionality.
If it turns out that he is under the age of 14, I take this all back.
Steinberg letter on Burma in context
Seems everyone is looking to the guiding light of military rule in Pakistan these days. http://ratchasima.net/2007/06/22/pakistans-judiciary-sets-an-example-for-thailand/
If the Pakistan military dictatorship model is going to be used as it is so instructive for other military dictatorships, I suggest that learners first try to figure out why life here is such a mess.
M Bedded in Islamabad
Mapping the post-coup academic landscape
nganadeeleg: If the stereotype doesn’t match reality, why repeat the stereotype instead of abandoning it?
Democratic double standards?
Still a stinky “debate.”
Selling City out?
And Thaksin has stated in uncertain terms in public how many times now, that he has retired from Thai politics? Heck, he’s been banned from Thai politics.
The junta is actually pulling him back into politics. Instead of letting him ride off into retirement and manage a football club, it insists on freezing all of his assets, including those assets gained before he became Prime Minister. What practical choice does he have but to fight the junta?
Democratic double standards?
Apparently jeru, the Constitutional Tribunal failed to reckon that the big void they created in Thai politics by eliminating the most popular political party in Thai democratic history would so quickly be filled by jeru and and his yellow-shirted kind enamored to that distinctive military boot aroma.
Who appointed the Tribunal? The military. Whose enemy did the Tribunal try? The military’s. Who issued the law with which the Tribunal’s judgement was made? The military. Whose legal principles did the Tribunal use in making its judgement? The military’s.
ANU honours Lee Kuan Yew. Why?
The ANU is an excellent University. Slightly better than Melbourne, and infinitely superior to Monash and UNSW.*
*Not just my opinion. Supported by most University ranking tables.