I believe Bawornsak is exaggerating the extent of rural poverty. Thailand has had single digit poverty since the Thaksin era. Sure, Thailand still has many “poor”, but relatively few don’t have enough food to eat.
IMHO there should be more coverage of this sort of event in academia in the newspapers.
I wanted to go but I was slow in getting my work done which oddly was about a Thai economist associated with ANU who won a prestigious economics award this week: Dr. Archanun Kophaiboon of Thammasat University.
It’s great that Thailand has a full diversity of intellectuals, including Marxists. Even if one is skeptical of Marxism, Marxism by now is part of Thailand’s heritage. Many of the people in jungles during the 1970s now occupy places in society, sometimes important, and there ‘s always the Carabao literature tradition, little shrines full or memorabilia, old photos, and torn Jit Phumisak books from the 1970s. I surreptitiously purchased some interesting stuff from one of these stands during the annual festival at Chiang Rai’s old airport this year (while the neighbor who was selling sticky buns across the way looked on a little disapprovingly, or maybe that was my imagination).
[…] what is taking the MICT so long? A comment by Hew on New Mandala might offer some clues. In the report I read, Google had said that half the clips had […]
When I got home I found out it wasn’t censored, but this topic isn’t really that interesting now that I have access. Reading it seems like a waste of time.
It is interesting, though surprising, to learn that Ji has become well-versed in the complexities of rural Thailand. Another expert had this to say on the subject: “The rural poor vote to repay the patronage they receive…We cannot allow the patronage culture to remain the way it is, but it cannot be changed without altering the production mode. Only when people have enough to eat can we inculcate people with democratic culture” (Borwornsak Uwanno, as quoted from a dinner talk by The Nation, May 17, 2007:3A).
[…] today I presented my paper on the “rural constitution” to a seminar in the Political Science Faculty at Chulalongkorn University (thanks to MAIDS for hosting the […]
My fascination with this entry is related to what happens when something gets censored.
The blog entry itself is not censored but clicking on the entry (yes, I did that too, because I am so curious) clicking on the entry with open new tab on IE7 produces a white screen and the URL remains New Mandala, interesting.
China’s logging and its potential for eliminating large forests quickly is a big international news item. I wonder how long the local truces or ceasefires will last, in the past not very long. When peace is a quid-pro-quo for doing business, i.e. I won’t shoot you if you let me operate my natural resource extraction business in peace, it may be hard to get out of a cycle of local warlordism.
BTW Christopher Bayley and TIm Harper’s book “Forgotten Armies” besides being the absolute best history of WWII era Burmese politics, also has great background on these WWII roads in northern Burma.
I wouldn’t want to wear a neck ring in Thailand or the Karenni States because they must be incredibly uncomfortable, but as Dr. Walker cautions, tradition is a complex thing. I’d also note in your example it wasn’t just the rings and tradition keeping the young lady shackled.
Saturday I’m going down to visit my friends and relatives to participate in an event that was supress for over fifty years, because it was keep us shackled in evil tradition that in the eyes of many would send us to Hell just as fast as stoning women for adultery.
Later on this summer I’ll go visit the grounds of some of my friends where their tradition dictates that they fast and dance in weather where the temperature will be over 100 degrees F, where they will be required to drink an herbal brew that will cause them to vomit, and then be scratched with a device made of four needles driven through a piece of wood on their arms, legs and in some cases across their chests until they bleed. (One friend of mine is old school and prefers to be scratched with gar- a type of fish- teeth.) My grandfather’s people used to have similar customs, but they gave it up because it shackled and marginalized them and kept them from participating a proliferation of opportunity. Funny thing is, some of my grandfather’s people these days aren’t so happy about giving those things up; they may have plenty of opportunities, but have they lost their souls?
Who give’s a rat’s derriere about Ad’s politics. The man puts together a great band with great music. I first arrived in Thailand around 1981 so me and Carabao have some shared history. They had a tour in the US two summers ago, and I got to see them in a small club with maybe all of 200 people in the club. Me and a few hot over 50 mamas embarassed the heck out of the younger Thais by dancing our middle-aged arses off Thai style for nearly two hours, only 10 meters from the stage, whilst the younger folk couldn’t do much more than wave their lame hands in the air. Apart from Isaan folk music, Carabao is the only Thai band I can listen to.
Jon: I will be glad to continue this conversation somewhere else, maybe in another, later post on Sipsong Panna -is it possible to do so in your blog, anyway?
“One of the first lessons you learn here is never to trust anyone who looks vaguely hippyish.” Is that your best try at wisdom ‘serf’?
‘Serf’ you put too much faith on dapper clothes and expensive neckties. Thailand was scammed by one such very well-dressed con artist with initials TS.
Maybe I’ll play ‘Made in Thailand’ and drink the beer AD promotes. Still sounds good to me after all these years ‘serf’!
Re: State Ethnic Policies: I’ve never been to Sipsongpanna but given that I am the son-in-law of a Maesai Tai Lu family, I know families that fled to Maesai from Sipsongpanna during the cultural revolution and their friends who now come to visit them from China, and assuming they started off with the same resources, the China side, the ones who remained in China during the cultural revolution have more money and seem to have integrated into their host society better, for better or worse that is. (I’m just describing what I see here, not passing judgement on it) That’s not to say most Tai Lu in Thailand don’t have a very good life, they do, but it hasn’t been so many years since they took down the “Persona Non-Grata” sign at Maesai Immigration and they still haven’t given many people ID cards, even if they’ve been there for 30 years. I don’t know how Yunnan compares in terms of integration.
The best evidence suggests that roads in the Kachin state are being refurbished as part of a multifaceted four-way collaboration.
The basic pattern is as follows:
The (1) Burmese government consents to their construction while (2) various ceasefire interests provide “Kachin” moral and political legitimacy (as far as is possible under current political conditions). The construction of roads is then funded by concession deals with (3) local business interests who, generally, seek to make money through mega logging projects, agribusiness or new mining ventures. Some of these new (or refurbished) roads will open up remote areas for economic activity, particularly in the “Triangle area”. The equipment and most labour for construction almost always comes from (4) China. Chinese businesses have strong relationships with the Kachin who are investing in the new roads and they also seek to profit from the new economic activities that will result.
Toll concessions (as predominate in some areas of the Shan state) are not, as far as I am aware, part of these four-way deals. Tolls are collected on other businesses who use roads for timber extraction but that is worked out as part of other commercial relationships. Tolls are also informally collected on some stretches of road but, to the best of my knowledge, these provide funds to various Burmese government installations (and are not part of the higher level negotiations).
The big toll gates that are seen, for example, on the Tachilek – Keng Tung road are not part of the Kachin state’s current transport landscape. In this context, there are many other ways to use new roads to make money.
Facebook 
Twitter 
Soundcloud 
Youtube 
Rss
A friendly reception
I believe Bawornsak is exaggerating the extent of rural poverty. Thailand has had single digit poverty since the Thaksin era. Sure, Thailand still has many “poor”, but relatively few don’t have enough food to eat.
A friendly reception
IMHO there should be more coverage of this sort of event in academia in the newspapers.
I wanted to go but I was slow in getting my work done which oddly was about a Thai economist associated with ANU who won a prestigious economics award this week: Dr. Archanun Kophaiboon of Thammasat University.
It’s great that Thailand has a full diversity of intellectuals, including Marxists. Even if one is skeptical of Marxism, Marxism by now is part of Thailand’s heritage. Many of the people in jungles during the 1970s now occupy places in society, sometimes important, and there ‘s always the Carabao literature tradition, little shrines full or memorabilia, old photos, and torn Jit Phumisak books from the 1970s. I surreptitiously purchased some interesting stuff from one of these stands during the annual festival at Chiang Rai’s old airport this year (while the neighbor who was selling sticky buns across the way looked on a little disapprovingly, or maybe that was my imagination).
A friendly reception
Borwornsak Uwanno– I assume that’s your sarcasm, right Srithanonchai?
YouTube vs Thai dictatorship: A settlement?
[…] what is taking the MICT so long? A comment by Hew on New Mandala might offer some clues. In the report I read, Google had said that half the clips had […]
A friendly reception
Interesting that you said there was a reporter from The Nation at your seminar.
Did the reporter ask you any questions?
I assuming s/he didn’t, which wouldn’t surprise me.
Somsak on Ananda Mahidol
When I got home I found out it wasn’t censored, but this topic isn’t really that interesting now that I have access. Reading it seems like a waste of time.
A friendly reception
It is interesting, though surprising, to learn that Ji has become well-versed in the complexities of rural Thailand. Another expert had this to say on the subject: “The rural poor vote to repay the patronage they receive…We cannot allow the patronage culture to remain the way it is, but it cannot be changed without altering the production mode. Only when people have enough to eat can we inculcate people with democratic culture” (Borwornsak Uwanno, as quoted from a dinner talk by The Nation, May 17, 2007:3A).
New Mandala in Bangkok
[…] today I presented my paper on the “rural constitution” to a seminar in the Political Science Faculty at Chulalongkorn University (thanks to MAIDS for hosting the […]
Somsak on Ananda Mahidol
My fascination with this entry is related to what happens when something gets censored.
The blog entry itself is not censored but clicking on the entry (yes, I did that too, because I am so curious) clicking on the entry with open new tab on IE7 produces a white screen and the URL remains New Mandala, interesting.
Carabao covered
Wisdom is for intellectuals, Jeru. Another waste of space.
Will the Stilwell Road come alive?
Thanks for that info, Nicholas.
China’s logging and its potential for eliminating large forests quickly is a big international news item. I wonder how long the local truces or ceasefires will last, in the past not very long. When peace is a quid-pro-quo for doing business, i.e. I won’t shoot you if you let me operate my natural resource extraction business in peace, it may be hard to get out of a cycle of local warlordism.
BTW Christopher Bayley and TIm Harper’s book “Forgotten Armies” besides being the absolute best history of WWII era Burmese politics, also has great background on these WWII roads in northern Burma.
Bound by tradition
Johpa,
I wouldn’t want to wear a neck ring in Thailand or the Karenni States because they must be incredibly uncomfortable, but as Dr. Walker cautions, tradition is a complex thing. I’d also note in your example it wasn’t just the rings and tradition keeping the young lady shackled.
Saturday I’m going down to visit my friends and relatives to participate in an event that was supress for over fifty years, because it was keep us shackled in evil tradition that in the eyes of many would send us to Hell just as fast as stoning women for adultery.
Later on this summer I’ll go visit the grounds of some of my friends where their tradition dictates that they fast and dance in weather where the temperature will be over 100 degrees F, where they will be required to drink an herbal brew that will cause them to vomit, and then be scratched with a device made of four needles driven through a piece of wood on their arms, legs and in some cases across their chests until they bleed. (One friend of mine is old school and prefers to be scratched with gar- a type of fish- teeth.) My grandfather’s people used to have similar customs, but they gave it up because it shackled and marginalized them and kept them from participating a proliferation of opportunity. Funny thing is, some of my grandfather’s people these days aren’t so happy about giving those things up; they may have plenty of opportunities, but have they lost their souls?
Carabao covered
Who give’s a rat’s derriere about Ad’s politics. The man puts together a great band with great music. I first arrived in Thailand around 1981 so me and Carabao have some shared history. They had a tour in the US two summers ago, and I got to see them in a small club with maybe all of 200 people in the club. Me and a few hot over 50 mamas embarassed the heck out of the younger Thais by dancing our middle-aged arses off Thai style for nearly two hours, only 10 meters from the stage, whilst the younger folk couldn’t do much more than wave their lame hands in the air. Apart from Isaan folk music, Carabao is the only Thai band I can listen to.
Sticking to the southern script
Jon: I will be glad to continue this conversation somewhere else, maybe in another, later post on Sipsong Panna -is it possible to do so in your blog, anyway?
Carabao covered
This is Carabao, not Caravan chai mai?
Thanpuying Poonsuk Banomyong
May u rest in peace.
with love and respect,
ur niece.
Carabao covered
“One of the first lessons you learn here is never to trust anyone who looks vaguely hippyish.” Is that your best try at wisdom ‘serf’?
‘Serf’ you put too much faith on dapper clothes and expensive neckties. Thailand was scammed by one such very well-dressed con artist with initials TS.
Maybe I’ll play ‘Made in Thailand’ and drink the beer AD promotes. Still sounds good to me after all these years ‘serf’!
Sticking to the southern script
The China-Burma and Thai-Burma borders certainly seem to be dividing lines between rebellion and non-rebellion areas.
1. Sipsongpanna, China
2. Maesai, Thailand
3. Mong Yawng, Eastern Shan States, Burma
Prosperous in that order, I’d say.
Re: State Ethnic Policies: I’ve never been to Sipsongpanna but given that I am the son-in-law of a Maesai Tai Lu family, I know families that fled to Maesai from Sipsongpanna during the cultural revolution and their friends who now come to visit them from China, and assuming they started off with the same resources, the China side, the ones who remained in China during the cultural revolution have more money and seem to have integrated into their host society better, for better or worse that is. (I’m just describing what I see here, not passing judgement on it) That’s not to say most Tai Lu in Thailand don’t have a very good life, they do, but it hasn’t been so many years since they took down the “Persona Non-Grata” sign at Maesai Immigration and they still haven’t given many people ID cards, even if they’ve been there for 30 years. I don’t know how Yunnan compares in terms of integration.
Will the Stilwell Road come alive?
Aiontay,
The best evidence suggests that roads in the Kachin state are being refurbished as part of a multifaceted four-way collaboration.
The basic pattern is as follows:
The (1) Burmese government consents to their construction while (2) various ceasefire interests provide “Kachin” moral and political legitimacy (as far as is possible under current political conditions). The construction of roads is then funded by concession deals with (3) local business interests who, generally, seek to make money through mega logging projects, agribusiness or new mining ventures. Some of these new (or refurbished) roads will open up remote areas for economic activity, particularly in the “Triangle area”. The equipment and most labour for construction almost always comes from (4) China. Chinese businesses have strong relationships with the Kachin who are investing in the new roads and they also seek to profit from the new economic activities that will result.
Toll concessions (as predominate in some areas of the Shan state) are not, as far as I am aware, part of these four-way deals. Tolls are collected on other businesses who use roads for timber extraction but that is worked out as part of other commercial relationships. Tolls are also informally collected on some stretches of road but, to the best of my knowledge, these provide funds to various Burmese government installations (and are not part of the higher level negotiations).
The big toll gates that are seen, for example, on the Tachilek – Keng Tung road are not part of the Kachin state’s current transport landscape. In this context, there are many other ways to use new roads to make money.
Best wishes to all,
Nich
Bound by tradition
Thai Chat, what do you mean by freedom?