[…] Thailand had threatened to sue Google and YouTube is currently blocked in Thailand : New Mandala has some questions. “Following this development, there are many new […]
Ad has a long history of forging cosy relationships with dodgy politicians such as Barnharn Silapa-Archa. Pretty much what you would expect with someone with such a heavy investment in the ‘health drinks’ market. I can understand that it is difficult to make money out of music when there are so many counterfeiters around, but I have never been able to figure out how his arse-licking fits with his supposed radical chic. One of the first lessons you learn here is never to trust anyone who looks vaguely hippyish. What might be good-natured roguishness at home usually transfers into downright slipperiness here.
Now we all realize what could happen if an extremely virulent mother of all virus with an innocous sounding initials TS is invited in: TOTAL SYSTEM BREAKDOWN. And we all thought we had pretty good operating system didn’t we? But the TS virus was able to quickly corrupt and disable every protective circuits . . even our firewalls FAILED.
The TS virus, I last heard, has migrated out now somewhere in Manchester City, but is not definitely immobilized. It was not called mother of all virus for nothing.
But in the meantime I heard a new operating system called ‘VISTA’, or new vision is being bandied around.
The neck rings must really torment those who aspire towards elevating cultural relativity to some sort of mystical and divine academic status. My less than honorable brother-inlaw was involved in a commercial “long neck” village up in northern Thailand many years ago. By the time I went to visit, the inhabitants spoke some Thai and some S’gaw Karen. So between me and the misses we were able to have a conversation with some of the women, and one very memorable younger school aged teen spoke, with tears in her eyes, about her dream to get rid of the rings and go to school instead of being kept confined as a tourist curiosity.
On the continuum between good cultural artifacts and evil cultural artifacts, in my humble and less than politcally correct miind, and for those brave few willing to make such judgments, the neck rings lie only a few degress away from clitorectomies and the stoning of women to death for adultery.
Jon: “Long histories of being in a place and also being subordinate in a place that one used to call one’s own, are probably associated with “rebellion” or “forceful resistance to being governed””
You may be right, but notice how things change once you cross the (present-day) border from Kengtung and into the Sipsong Panna. Diverse factors come into play here -such as state ethnic policies
I forgot to write that good Padaung perspective (albeit a male one) on Padaung tradition can be found in Pascal Khoo Thwe’s book “From the Land of the Green Ghosts.”
Carabao has been strangely silent these past few months.
I remember after Bloody May, Carabao came out with a wonderful song titled р╕ер╣Йр╕▓р╕Зр╕Ър╕▓р╕З (laang baang, purge) urging the people to not vote for parties that had supported the military government. For them to be silent in this day and age is truely puzzling.
But it must be said that “Ad” is not as revolutionary as he has been and claims to be. His “Carabao Daeng” has revealed his revolutionary-turned-enterpreneur attitude, and in some crudial moments you have missed his statement. Where was he during the coup?
But by the end of the day – Even Dylan has turned commercial…
It is said that if you install RamaIX.kng, your PC will be cleansed of all system-destabilising viruses (although not sure if it will remove trojans, especially the Generals.gov variety that are very effective at masking themselves behind RamaIX.kng and making themselves very difficult to remove).
Many users are also worried about the next version, called RamaX.dik, fearing that this new version will be completely ineffective or worse, corrupting the hard drive and crashing the entire system,which will enable the General.gov trojan to completely takeover (unless people.pwr files are activated).
Another, easier way save yourselves from all this hassle is to switch to a Mac.
It seems that I didn’t make myself clear, and for that I apologize. When I wrote “However, you can’t deny that, nowadays, the model of government these terrorists seek to establish is always a Sharia state” I was not refering to the Southern insurgents, but to pan-Islamist organizations such as al-Qaeda and Jemaah Islamiyah.
Nevertheless, there must be a large majority of Muslims in the South of Thailand who desire Sharia law, as the introduction of Islamic law as the first recommendation to come out of the findings of Anand Panyarachun’s National Reconciliation Commission.
As to your first point, I asked why Thaification was more effective in the North than in the South, and you provided an answer, in which now I understand. Despite your sarcastic tone, I appricate the reply.
However, the anti-Americanist rhetorical cheap shot says a lot more about you than it does me.
Lliej-What I’m interested in knowing is why Thaification was able to (somewhat) extinguish Issan/Lao irredentist movements but not Southern Islamic/Malay movements? Where does Communist ideology fail and Islamic ideology succeed in this regard?
As noted by this aging pre-postmodernist Kafir (may I recommend Keyes’ Ethnic Change) , I would venture that there was never much to grab one’s attention up in Laos, just a sleepy backwater with a sleepy monarchy and later an unattractive government. Thailand has the “in your face monarchy”, a thriving capitol, and dominates the airwaves. What was there to cause the Lao in Isaan to look over their shoulders towards Laos and, to paraphrase Anderson, imagine themselves part of that community? Methinks that if Laos had become a thriving nation and had maintained the monarchy that you would see an irredentist movement in Isaan. But it could still happen, ya never know. Kulu kalb bijiumu.
Down south there has long been, forever been, an active irredentist movement, as there has always been an attractive Malay alternative to identity. That movement had now been infused with Islamic fundamentalism, but that new religious aspect is not the creator of the separatist movement. It adds a new tantalizing flavor for the Malay participants and a very dangerous dimension for the Thai government.
Tokasan-There is another elephant in the room that nobody has brought up: The mafia.
There is mafia everywhere in Thailand. With or without the Malay issue, there would be smuggling. There is smuggling up north and even some smuggling in the southeast, and there is smuggling into China via Laos. Certainly smugglers down south will take advantage of the unrest and it makes it difficult sometimes to remember that it is only background noise to the separatist issue. Using illegal activities to fund political agendas, drugs for guns etc, is old as the hills. Touching on Southeast Asia alone, one can read about it in McCoy’s Opus, The Politics of Heroin, or research the BCCI, and for you Aussie Kafirs, the related yet still mysterious Nugan-Hand affair.
Thanpuying Poonsook Banomyong, the woman behind Pridi, must have influenced the birth of Thailand democracy far deeper than probably any Thai would realize.
Akhas in Kengtung on the northern border have a pretty longstanding 100 year Catholic history but the Tai state of Keng Tung goes far back, as much as 700 years which makes the Akhas recent arrivals in that area.
Chang Rai province has a fairly sizable Muslim population, many of whom are Panthay Muslims from Yunnan, I believe, but some are even Rohingyas from Burma who migrated there for the gem trade, but for the most part recent arrivals, it seems.
Pattani was an independent sultanate that goes very far back in history (like Tai rule over Kengtung). Long histories of being in a place and also being subordinate in a place that one used to call one’s own, are probably associated with “rebellion” or “forceful resistance to being governed”
This has certainly been the case with the Shans in Burma, ethnically Tai people (like central Thais) who used to be much more in control of their own territory than they are now, indirect rule under the British and tributary rule under the British kings.
[Note: I am not offering a partisan excuse or justification, merely a tentative hypothesis based on the historical data.]
#25 Have you been to both northern and southern Thailand? I would have thought the answer would emerge from there being a nation sitting to the south of Thailand with a dissimilar identity filtering across a border – as opposed to the populations close to the northern borders who have a cultural heritage that is more compatible with people in Thailand? Probably i’m an idiot though, paying too much attention to the power of region!
Also, where do you see all of these calls for Sharia states? I’ve seen a call for A state, but that was on the news. Sadly I don’t know any terrorists yet. You know ALL the terrorists? Wow.
(Americans and terrorism on here again! I’m terrified! )
Re:Tosakan (and others)> When you look at places at Saudi Arabia or Egypt, or Kosova and Chechnya, a lot of the terrorism is not spawned because of their hatred for the infidel, but because those countries are corrupt and are run like mafia states.
Agreed. I mean, what is a Terrorist but a Mafiosi who’s interested in politics? 😉 However, you can’t deny that, nowadays, the model of government these terrorists seek to establish is always a Sharia state. You don’t see call for Marxist/Arab Socialist revolution anymore. Kemalism is a uniquely Turkish institution.
What I’m interested in knowing is why Thaification was able to (somewhat) extinguish Issan/Lao irredentist movements but not Southern Islamic/Malay movements? Where does Communist ideology fail and Islamic ideology succeed in this regard?
Whatever your opinion on Islam, you have to admit that in the past decade, the Southern insurgency has taken on a religious dimension that wasn’t as explicit as before. Why? What purpose does Islam serve for the insurgency?
The Republican feels that it is unfair to judge Muslims by a “medieval, scriptural based” viewpoint, and he is correct. However, when discussing the Southern insurgency, we must be cognizant of the fact that the ustazis and their students that form the soldiers of this “new wave” insurgency spend the majority of their day reading the Quran. How does the Quranic exegesis that they have devoted their lives to guide and shape their strategy and actions concerning the insurgency? Until Thai military strategists sit down and ask themselves that question, they will go nowhere in quelling the insurgence.
For my arguments, I didn’t randomly choose violent quotes from the Quran. I chose those specific passages because I feel that in order to understand the insurgency we have to understand how the Quran shapes their worldview. Look up and read verses 8:39, 8:67, 9:5, 9:29, 9:33. Think about how they relate to events in the South. What about this new fad of beheading people? One may argue that the insurgents are merely copying the tactics of al-Qaeda. But where do they find legitimacy for doing so? Perhaps from Quran 47:4?
Until there is a major movement in Islamic jurisprudence to counter the literalist Quranic exegesis that the extremists engage in, no progress can be made in a war that is largely ideological.
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YouTube vs Thai dictatorship: A settlement?
[…] Thailand had threatened to sue Google and YouTube is currently blocked in Thailand : New Mandala has some questions. “Following this development, there are many new […]
Bound by tradition
Neither tradition nor culture should oppress people freedom…
Carabao covered
Ad has a long history of forging cosy relationships with dodgy politicians such as Barnharn Silapa-Archa. Pretty much what you would expect with someone with such a heavy investment in the ‘health drinks’ market. I can understand that it is difficult to make money out of music when there are so many counterfeiters around, but I have never been able to figure out how his arse-licking fits with his supposed radical chic. One of the first lessons you learn here is never to trust anyone who looks vaguely hippyish. What might be good-natured roguishness at home usually transfers into downright slipperiness here.
Will the Stilwell Road come alive?
Who is doing the refurbishing in Northern Burma? Is it companies with toll concessions from the regime?
What about an anti-coup-coup coup?
Now we all realize what could happen if an extremely virulent mother of all virus with an innocous sounding initials TS is invited in: TOTAL SYSTEM BREAKDOWN. And we all thought we had pretty good operating system didn’t we? But the TS virus was able to quickly corrupt and disable every protective circuits . . even our firewalls FAILED.
The TS virus, I last heard, has migrated out now somewhere in Manchester City, but is not definitely immobilized. It was not called mother of all virus for nothing.
But in the meantime I heard a new operating system called ‘VISTA’, or new vision is being bandied around.
Bound by tradition
The neck rings must really torment those who aspire towards elevating cultural relativity to some sort of mystical and divine academic status. My less than honorable brother-inlaw was involved in a commercial “long neck” village up in northern Thailand many years ago. By the time I went to visit, the inhabitants spoke some Thai and some S’gaw Karen. So between me and the misses we were able to have a conversation with some of the women, and one very memorable younger school aged teen spoke, with tears in her eyes, about her dream to get rid of the rings and go to school instead of being kept confined as a tourist curiosity.
On the continuum between good cultural artifacts and evil cultural artifacts, in my humble and less than politcally correct miind, and for those brave few willing to make such judgments, the neck rings lie only a few degress away from clitorectomies and the stoning of women to death for adultery.
Sticking to the southern script
Jon: “Long histories of being in a place and also being subordinate in a place that one used to call one’s own, are probably associated with “rebellion” or “forceful resistance to being governed””
You may be right, but notice how things change once you cross the (present-day) border from Kengtung and into the Sipsong Panna. Diverse factors come into play here -such as state ethnic policies
Bound by tradition
I forgot to write that good Padaung perspective (albeit a male one) on Padaung tradition can be found in Pascal Khoo Thwe’s book “From the Land of the Green Ghosts.”
Carabao covered
Carabao has been strangely silent these past few months.
I remember after Bloody May, Carabao came out with a wonderful song titled р╕ер╣Йр╕▓р╕Зр╕Ър╕▓р╕З (laang baang, purge) urging the people to not vote for parties that had supported the military government. For them to be silent in this day and age is truely puzzling.
Carabao covered
But it must be said that “Ad” is not as revolutionary as he has been and claims to be. His “Carabao Daeng” has revealed his revolutionary-turned-enterpreneur attitude, and in some crudial moments you have missed his statement. Where was he during the coup?
But by the end of the day – Even Dylan has turned commercial…
What about an anti-coup-coup coup?
It is said that if you install RamaIX.kng, your PC will be cleansed of all system-destabilising viruses (although not sure if it will remove trojans, especially the Generals.gov variety that are very effective at masking themselves behind RamaIX.kng and making themselves very difficult to remove).
Many users are also worried about the next version, called RamaX.dik, fearing that this new version will be completely ineffective or worse, corrupting the hard drive and crashing the entire system,which will enable the General.gov trojan to completely takeover (unless people.pwr files are activated).
Another, easier way save yourselves from all this hassle is to switch to a Mac.
Sticking to the southern script
Re: Pig Latin #26>
It seems that I didn’t make myself clear, and for that I apologize. When I wrote “However, you can’t deny that, nowadays, the model of government these terrorists seek to establish is always a Sharia state” I was not refering to the Southern insurgents, but to pan-Islamist organizations such as al-Qaeda and Jemaah Islamiyah.
Nevertheless, there must be a large majority of Muslims in the South of Thailand who desire Sharia law, as the introduction of Islamic law as the first recommendation to come out of the findings of Anand Panyarachun’s National Reconciliation Commission.
As to your first point, I asked why Thaification was more effective in the North than in the South, and you provided an answer, in which now I understand. Despite your sarcastic tone, I appricate the reply.
However, the anti-Americanist rhetorical cheap shot says a lot more about you than it does me.
Sticking to the southern script
Lliej-What I’m interested in knowing is why Thaification was able to (somewhat) extinguish Issan/Lao irredentist movements but not Southern Islamic/Malay movements? Where does Communist ideology fail and Islamic ideology succeed in this regard?
As noted by this aging pre-postmodernist Kafir (may I recommend Keyes’ Ethnic Change) , I would venture that there was never much to grab one’s attention up in Laos, just a sleepy backwater with a sleepy monarchy and later an unattractive government. Thailand has the “in your face monarchy”, a thriving capitol, and dominates the airwaves. What was there to cause the Lao in Isaan to look over their shoulders towards Laos and, to paraphrase Anderson, imagine themselves part of that community? Methinks that if Laos had become a thriving nation and had maintained the monarchy that you would see an irredentist movement in Isaan. But it could still happen, ya never know. Kulu kalb bijiumu.
Down south there has long been, forever been, an active irredentist movement, as there has always been an attractive Malay alternative to identity. That movement had now been infused with Islamic fundamentalism, but that new religious aspect is not the creator of the separatist movement. It adds a new tantalizing flavor for the Malay participants and a very dangerous dimension for the Thai government.
Tokasan-There is another elephant in the room that nobody has brought up: The mafia.
There is mafia everywhere in Thailand. With or without the Malay issue, there would be smuggling. There is smuggling up north and even some smuggling in the southeast, and there is smuggling into China via Laos. Certainly smugglers down south will take advantage of the unrest and it makes it difficult sometimes to remember that it is only background noise to the separatist issue. Using illegal activities to fund political agendas, drugs for guns etc, is old as the hills. Touching on Southeast Asia alone, one can read about it in McCoy’s Opus, The Politics of Heroin, or research the BCCI, and for you Aussie Kafirs, the related yet still mysterious Nugan-Hand affair.
Thanpuying Poonsuk Banomyong
Thanpuying Poonsook Banomyong, the woman behind Pridi, must have influenced the birth of Thailand democracy far deeper than probably any Thai would realize.
I salute her!
Sticking to the southern script
Thanks Jon, that was a helpful summation. 🙂
Bound by tradition
In the second article, is it tradition that is causing the zoo and marginalization, or the multiple political and economic forces outside tradition?
Sticking to the southern script
Akhas in Kengtung on the northern border have a pretty longstanding 100 year Catholic history but the Tai state of Keng Tung goes far back, as much as 700 years which makes the Akhas recent arrivals in that area.
Chang Rai province has a fairly sizable Muslim population, many of whom are Panthay Muslims from Yunnan, I believe, but some are even Rohingyas from Burma who migrated there for the gem trade, but for the most part recent arrivals, it seems.
Pattani was an independent sultanate that goes very far back in history (like Tai rule over Kengtung). Long histories of being in a place and also being subordinate in a place that one used to call one’s own, are probably associated with “rebellion” or “forceful resistance to being governed”
This has certainly been the case with the Shans in Burma, ethnically Tai people (like central Thais) who used to be much more in control of their own territory than they are now, indirect rule under the British and tributary rule under the British kings.
[Note: I am not offering a partisan excuse or justification, merely a tentative hypothesis based on the historical data.]
Sticking to the southern script
#25 Have you been to both northern and southern Thailand? I would have thought the answer would emerge from there being a nation sitting to the south of Thailand with a dissimilar identity filtering across a border – as opposed to the populations close to the northern borders who have a cultural heritage that is more compatible with people in Thailand? Probably i’m an idiot though, paying too much attention to the power of region!
Also, where do you see all of these calls for Sharia states? I’ve seen a call for A state, but that was on the news. Sadly I don’t know any terrorists yet. You know ALL the terrorists? Wow.
(Americans and terrorism on here again! I’m terrified! )
What about an anti-coup-coup coup?
Thanks Jon and I’ll be on my guard. I am of course referring to the ‘Republican virus’ you just mentioned, who tend to hog the forum hard drives.
Anyone with serious problem with the above mentioned virus, let me know. I have a special Yellow Anti-Virus that is guaranteed to work.
Sticking to the southern script
Re:Tosakan (and others)>
When you look at places at Saudi Arabia or Egypt, or Kosova and Chechnya, a lot of the terrorism is not spawned because of their hatred for the infidel, but because those countries are corrupt and are run like mafia states.
Agreed. I mean, what is a Terrorist but a Mafiosi who’s interested in politics? 😉 However, you can’t deny that, nowadays, the model of government these terrorists seek to establish is always a Sharia state. You don’t see call for Marxist/Arab Socialist revolution anymore. Kemalism is a uniquely Turkish institution.
What I’m interested in knowing is why Thaification was able to (somewhat) extinguish Issan/Lao irredentist movements but not Southern Islamic/Malay movements? Where does Communist ideology fail and Islamic ideology succeed in this regard?
Whatever your opinion on Islam, you have to admit that in the past decade, the Southern insurgency has taken on a religious dimension that wasn’t as explicit as before. Why? What purpose does Islam serve for the insurgency?
The Republican feels that it is unfair to judge Muslims by a “medieval, scriptural based” viewpoint, and he is correct. However, when discussing the Southern insurgency, we must be cognizant of the fact that the ustazis and their students that form the soldiers of this “new wave” insurgency spend the majority of their day reading the Quran. How does the Quranic exegesis that they have devoted their lives to guide and shape their strategy and actions concerning the insurgency? Until Thai military strategists sit down and ask themselves that question, they will go nowhere in quelling the insurgence.
For my arguments, I didn’t randomly choose violent quotes from the Quran. I chose those specific passages because I feel that in order to understand the insurgency we have to understand how the Quran shapes their worldview. Look up and read verses 8:39, 8:67, 9:5, 9:29, 9:33. Think about how they relate to events in the South. What about this new fad of beheading people? One may argue that the insurgents are merely copying the tactics of al-Qaeda. But where do they find legitimacy for doing so? Perhaps from Quran 47:4?
Until there is a major movement in Islamic jurisprudence to counter the literalist Quranic exegesis that the extremists engage in, no progress can be made in a war that is largely ideological.