I think this squabble is unfortunate. Frank would have had a good argument if he had not allowed it to become completely polarised. Violence and the threat of it are overwhelmingly the tools of the royalists/militarists. The reds have been peaceful very largely (indeed remarkably so). Yingluck (the rich bourgeoise) has been a beacon of peacefulness and moral courage to all Thais. Unfortunately not all of the millions of reds have followed her peaceful example. Some but not all of the violence attributed to the reds is the work of agents provocateurs. Frank has converted an argument that is statistically correct into absolute terms, which are false.
I think Frank’s use of the term “fascism” is OK. I suspect Nick’s reluctance to use it comes partly from its common use by the old East German régime (Nie wieder Fascismus!” etc.). For all their sins though, they were (statistically) braver opponents of fascism than those who came to run West Germany.
The Royal Institute dictionary online provides the following definition for fascist: р╕Яр╕▓р╕кр╕Лр╕┤р╕кр╕Хр╣М р╕Щ. р╕ер╕▒р╕Чр╕Шр╕┤р╕Бр╕▓р╕гр╣Ар╕бр╕╖р╕нр╕Зр╕Чр╕╡р╣Ир╕Ьр╕╣р╣Йр╕Щр╣Нр╕▓р╕гр╕зр╕Ър╕нр╣Нр╕▓р╕Щр╕▓р╕Ир╕Чр╕▒р╣Йр╕Зр╕Чр╕▓р╕Зр╕Бр╕▓р╕гр╣Ар╕бр╕╖р╕нр╕З р╣Ар╕ир╕гр╕йр╕Рр╕Бр╕┤р╕И р╣Бр╕ер╕░ р╕кр╕▒р╕Зр╕Др╕бр╣Др╕зр╣Йр╕лр╕бр╕Ф р╣Бр╕ер╕░р╕бр╕╡р╕Щр╣Вр╕вр╕Ър╕▓р╕вр╕Кр╕▓р╕Хр╕┤р╕Щр╕┤р╕вр╕бр╕нр╕вр╣Ир╕▓р╕Зр╕гр╕╕р╕Щр╣Бр╕гр╕З р╣Бр╕Хр╣Ир╣Ар╕Др╕▓р╕гр╕Юр╣Гр╕Щ
р╕Бр╕гр╕гр╕бр╕кр╕┤р╕Чр╕Шр╕┤р╣Мр╕Вр╕нр╕Зр╣Ар╕нр╕Бр╕Кр╕Щ, р╕Ьр╕╣р╣Йр╕Чр╕╡р╣Ир╕Щр╕┤р╕вр╕бр╕ер╕▒р╕Чр╕Шр╕┤р╕Щр╕▒р╣Йр╕Щ. р╕з. р╣Ар╕Бр╕╡р╣Ир╕вр╕зр╕Бр╕▒р╕Ър╕ер╕▒р╕Чр╕Шр╕┤р╕Яр╕▓р╕кр╕Лр╕┤р╕кр╕Хр╣М.
(р╕н. fascism, fascist).
Translation: Political principle where leadership controls all political, economic and social power and where policy is strong nationalism, but honoring private ownership; cult popularity; relating to fascists. Looks like Thailand is fascist!!! Has always been but it is now being bilked for all it’s worth.
Putting aside the in-borne laziness, some points will now be refuted simply for the sake of entertainment.
If all the above writing were cynical then that will need indication of which points were not right or over-inflated.
That stated example of robberies on the “A-myan-lan-ma-gyi”. Now people say you should check your wheels at the 115-mile Rest Stop for wood with nail spikes as that is how they try to stop the car to get on with their evil ways. (Mind you while reports of robberies were plenty so far no physical harm like rape reported, yet. And why should this happen at that road and not elsewhere- yet- is another story.) Now ask anyone in this forum or anywhere you can think of whether they would think of it as a “Rule of Law” issue. And then ask what are they prepared to do about it.
Then there is this little issue of Wun Paung (Norinco) contract. Why is it that Aung San Suu Kyi is so anxious to honor that- what is in common parlance called “Odious”- contract? Then again ask the same crowd of people whether what they think about it and what are they prepared to do about it.
In realty, what is going to happen is no one would give a sxxx about the first scenario (which is real) and if the dear Wun Paung is reverted, even though everyone hates Norinco, they would thoroughly recommend to take Burma to court for breach of that said “odious” contract. That is Rule of Law that woman was talking about in accord with her handlers (and the crowd that was asked would be somehow or other in tune with them as well.). 60 Judges!!! Wonderful.
If the truth is so sick, mere description of it does sound cynic. Agreed. Sort of thing Jack Nicholson might say “You can’t handle the truth.”
But hopelessness and Burma full of nincompoops was never implied or described. Au-contraire, the opposite is true.
During siege of Laizar (which is still going on like Indonesian peat fire- for the sake of Good Chocolate!) I felt that will be Than Shwe’s Waterloo if he attacked and destroyed it. We will never know that was true.
Here again the “Rape of the Last Virgin Land on Earth” will meet its Waterloo for the voracious, vicious and ruthless and Global Corporations if they do carry out the deed on Burma. Now the global players are too old and tired with one card trick for the last century, their “Snake-legs” are visible to any observers. And Burmese public are such observers. For them a spade is a spade.
Granted the “Idol-manufacturing” machinery complete with Global Institution Awards and Historic Western University and government establishment awards and recognition as well as usual bevy of “Celebrities” (usually high school drop outs) endorsement for popular acclaim does mesmerized the populace- for now. Before long people will see like the villagers in Lapadaung of the realty (Like finding the “Wizard” behind the curtain.
When that happens, they will know what to do just like Dorothy’s clicks.
I can assure you that will be the people with their immense wisdom and effort, but nothing whatsoever to do with International this and that be they money-wise (IMF, WB, ADB) or Judge-wise.
Oh! Almost forgot. The axis of power has well and truly changed. If not before definitely after 7 billion dollar Indian contract for S400’s and T90’s. Sorry China as well.
If you look at all the African and Latin American stories just about ALL non-compliers (quite long list here) were eliminated (easy to find their own kind to do the dirty) or turned. But that was before. Now Latin America has changed. African is distinctly in Chinese financial magnetism not American and British Glamour with wavering loyalty (all of a sudden dinner with Queen or White House reception or DSc from Harvard! don’t buy much nowadays!)
With competition, the consumers can get better value for what they pay for. On top of that if the dollar were to collapse as predicted in 2007, exact year Catholic Church is hoping to “unify” Christianity under new and improve Jesuit Pope!
I can add an addendum to Nick’s excellent analysis – I spent the year of 2014 in Phnom Penh and met a large number of exiled Thai dissidents and red shirts. Some of those living in exile had fled as a result of their political activities but many others had perpetrated violent attacks in 2010 and 2013/4 and openly admitted this. Anybody who spent any time talking to Thai exiles in Phnom Penh recently would easily be able to verify this. So it makes the denials from Jim Taylor and “Felix” rather absurd. Reality does not fit nearly into stereotypes and a good-versus-evil framework, and any credible observer needs to acknowledge the complexities of the situation, rather than taking refuge in propaganda.
Nick, I don’t suggest you waste your time debating “Felix”, who is a London-based armchair observes who comments online under a plethora of aliases, based on his prejudices rather than on the facts. I’m sure you know who I am talking about.
I suspect you know why. Your first comment I thumbed up for being correct, the 2nd I thumbed down as any truth it holds is overwhelmed by Prayuth’s inaction in the preceeding months to support the elected government.
You really are more than an incorrigible cynic, Ohn – a misery guts and messiah of doom. The hopeless hapless Burmese can only “pinch their collective nose and suffocate themselves to death” as the old expression goes.
Baby steps to start with now that change is not only possible but probable. At least the political will so conspicuous in its absence for so long is there now.
No one is in denial even the ancien regime accepted with ill grace that the system is corrupt through and through. I hear the NLD will be replacing the regional level judges numbering to something like sixty. They are serious about this and there is both the good will, a critical eye and practical assistance from the international commission of jurists. Cheer up. The end is not high.
First of all, you were not the only anthropologist who researched the Red Shirts. Claudio Sopranzetti, for example, who now teaches at Oxford, also researched the Red Shirts as part of his thesis on motorcycle taxi drivers. And Claudio i have seen regularly on the ground – especially in 2010, including in some of the nastier places. Many other researchers i have regularly seen as well, such as ethnomusicologist Ben Tausig, sociologist Michael Nelson and quite a few others. Given that all of the already mentioned have quoted form my articles and books, maybe i am not as fuzzy as you assume.
I just do not look at the situation as a simplistic black and white situation, where i have to identify myself with just one side completely and therefore draw my information and sources from that side only and exclusively.
As to 2009 – it is quite simple to establish that there could not have been possibly be hundreds of deaths during that crackdown. The two contested events were the early morning attack at Din Daeng and the night fighting at Nang Lern. The day time events were so well observed that we have a very clear picture of what took place. Early morning i was present at the side of the Red Shirts, one of only a small handful of journos and the only Farang journo, and i have not seen any corpses (again, i do not exclude that there may have been a small number of dead as some of the escaping Red Shirts pointed out to me the location of one or the other corpse, but the only clear proof we have is of several injured). Several of my colleagues, very experienced ones – both Thai and farang, have been at the side of the military, and they have neither seen any corpses. In addition, some Red Shirts were also observing form the side of the military, and have not seen corpses either.
During the night fighting of Nang Learn i only was present during the initial phase, as it became to dangerous after nightfall. But i have during the night been in phone contact with several sources from all sides who took part in the fighting, and later interviews corroborated all one fact – that both sides saw exactly 4 people killed, 2 on each side. The two reported Yellow Shirts, and the two Red Shirt guards who were fished out later from the river with bound hands (which the Abhisit government refused to acknowledge to have been killed during the fighting).
As with all information, claims of extrajudicial killings have to be taken with a grain of salt, and corroborated with fact. Everybody exaggerates, under counts and denies depending on convenience. Rumor is easily taken as fact.
While i am aware that there were/are regularly such claims and rumors, and rarely do they pen out after thorough investigation. In this day and age it is very difficult to hide a large number of extrajudicial killings in Thailand, especially when it concerns normal citizens. Not just because of an increased awareness of the population, the wide spread of mobile phones with cameras, but also because a very large number of the security forces are Red Shirts or Red Shirt sympathizers or simply officers who want the truth to be known regardless which side may benefit. Secret information always trickles through. One just has to be careful not to be played, and therefore has to verify information from at least three independent sources. That takes time and effort, but is a necessary process.
Initially after 2010 there were a long list of missing people, but slowly that list got down, and most of these people were found to be hiding either in Thailand or in neighboring countries. The same counts for Aksa, were the claims of supposedly killed went from 5 in the evening of the coup to 20 on the next day, and more than 40 in the following days.
In the end, after much investigation by many sides it turned out that indeed none were killed, and several who were supposedly killed appeared in person during the initial anti-coup protests. I have been at such scenes were people believed to have been killed were greeted by friends with surprise.
What has to be done with claims of extra-judicially killed people is not to just accept such claims, but take these claims as a base of research, but try to get documentation, access to witnesses, and very importantly, have trusted sources in the security and intelligence agencies. Trusted mean that every piece of information you get has to still be corroborated, and constantly verified for accuracy, to avoid falling into the trap of being played.
We do have clear evidence of a number of extra-judicial killings during and after 2010, and also during the 2013/2014 PDRC protests. The majority were committed by the state authorities, and a small number by Red Shirts and by Yellow Shirts as well. Some cases are more detailed, others less so.
But the claim of “hundreds” is unsubstantiated and plain hysterical. It is shocking enough that such incidents took place, and it is better to concentrate on those than exaggerating and go into the territory of myth and legend (which, is interesting in itself, and does partly shape perception, but is still urban legend).
This is not about keeping an open mind, by painstaking work trying to verify every bit of information in order to establish what has taken place, beyond reasonable doubt and as much as we are able to. The truth is neither Red nor Yellow.
As to your access, i am more than aware of all the organizations you talk about, and also the individual leaders whose names you dropped over time (and naturally, some more). And it may come as a surprise to you – but i know each of the ones you mentioned as well, agree in some points with them, and disagree in others.
So, please, stop trying to portray me as an idiot with a camera. I have followed the Red/Yellow conflict from late 2005 until now. And until late November i spent equal time on both sides. While i can’t go to Yellow events anymore, i still have long time sources in that camp with whom i still talk. In that decade even stupid me without a degree may have picked up some… 😉
The judiciary in the “west” is just is a misconception. It differs only in visibility. Bad as the Asian law industry may be, there is truly on one who cannot be bought. Only the price differs.
Justice, if that is what we are interested here, is a fundamental “Human” value. Indeed even animals have it. No one needs to fly 8000 miles to find justice. It is everywhere if desired. Only if desired.
That said, the ROL thingy Aung San Suu Kyi used to mantra before is a different one altogether. She, using her freedom to promote others’ and “freedom from fear” and all those highly romanticized BS, never seems to mind numerous visible industrial injustices, land grab which is getting worse by hours, White-phosphorous bombing sleeping monks in the middle of night on a religious day, hundreds of thousands running away from fighting’s, air force bombing and strafing in a civil war, resource theft in day light, burning people alive in day light or shopping into pieces or daily robbery and murders including the ones on the “A-myan-lan-ma-gyi” , etc. are of none of her concern at all. And therefore none of anybody’s concern as the people of Burma can think only as far as she tells them.
The ROL that was talked about and now will be talked about and are now of single most interested topic by the “West” is the very ROL Chomsky pointed out from the Federalist Papers that the minority who owns the property – be they physical or intellectual or others (remember Japan is patenting Tha-na-khar now) – can have their rights protected by guns against the majority these rights are used to exploit.
In other words, the land grab all the “cronies” (by the way Shwe Mann’s sons are most prominent here) and “Sit-tut” and indeed the Chinese are doing right now is OK. But when the current land owners (of course with no paper to show therefore have no right, easy!!!!) want to go anywhere near their old place then the gun-toting ROL will bite them.
You can bet you last dollar that that is the only single thing all the “Business community” and “International corporations” and “development organization” and any other f-w named outfits are interested. They want some one of “local” origin who will so their dirty work.
That is the only ROL everyone is interested.
Again, there is not a single Judge or judiciary of any sort on earth who cannot be bought. Just the price differs. Courses!!!!!!
N.Nostitz: I am not sure that trying to belittle the writer to cover your own blatant lack of understanding, or to maintain your own fuzzy position, is credible. As it happens I was living in Thailand for many years, conducted ethnographic research from 2007-11 on the “red shirts” (possibly the only anthropologist to do this), interviewed hundreds of people at all levels and have access to information that you may not be aware of. As for the red shirts who died or disappeared for believing in rights, freedom and democracy 2009-2011 (–and of course continuing), we may never know the exact number: Indeed how could we in a fascistic state that controls information? The only credible way is to piece together as objectively as possible (discounting the likes of biased amaat media such as “Bangkok Post”, given its ultra-royalists financiers, e.g. Chirathivat) and from informants involved on the ground. In one NE province alone there were dozens of funerals in the months following the first crackdown/ and if families were able to get the bodies of their loved ones from the army. Provincial leaders everywhere told me that dozens of people remain unaccounted for in many districts. Pro-amaat Yellow hospitals in Bangkok also “doctored” records to hide the red shirt casualties and deaths. The Democrat Party’s BMA were always quick to obliterate evidence from the streets. But we can be sure that deaths were in the hundreds over this period, not just at the demonstrations, but selectively in the provinces during the subsequent witch hunt. Not sure where you were looking at the time! Human Rights Watch and iLaw Thailand also some limited information, as does the legal team that worked for UDD to be made ready for the ICJ at the right time. We may even be understating the numbers. No doubt the ugly truth will reveal itself one day. Meanwhile I suggest you keep an open mind for when the truth does come to light.
Thanks for your considered response, Christine. Fair enough. The points you make are certainly interesting and good humored too. Perhaps I am being too cynical about the current crop of… inhabiting the performative space. One sees virtually no interest or understanding of history in modern Thailand (or anywhere else for that matter)let alone an appreciation of the subtleties of cultural anthropology.
Cut off and posted without completing or corrections…
Christine Gray (not Grey) is the author of perspicacious NM blog published on 22nd December.
Using the ‘shades of grey” analogy in discussing many political developments in SEA, has become somewhat problematical given both the existence of an American semi-porn film with this title, and, more importantly for NM readers, Jusuf Wanadi’s memoir published in Jakarta under this title, in both bahasa and English by Equinox.
Christine Gray – despite what Judith Stowe says, Siam NEVER became Thailand. Siam is democracy under the monarchy. Thailand is simply a military dictatorship.
Unless all judiciary personnel are amoral, incorrigible and can not be redeemed in anyway, it will only take one who is encouraged to be ‘Just as precedence’ to effect the future examplE TO ROL.
A quality only the west can provide. Even though this has been stretched to the extreme.
For those who are real loud in blaming the lack of ROL, UN, HR org and NGOs, this is your best time and chance to make the difference, speak up or forever hold thy peace.
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A state of madness
I think this squabble is unfortunate. Frank would have had a good argument if he had not allowed it to become completely polarised. Violence and the threat of it are overwhelmingly the tools of the royalists/militarists. The reds have been peaceful very largely (indeed remarkably so). Yingluck (the rich bourgeoise) has been a beacon of peacefulness and moral courage to all Thais. Unfortunately not all of the millions of reds have followed her peaceful example. Some but not all of the violence attributed to the reds is the work of agents provocateurs. Frank has converted an argument that is statistically correct into absolute terms, which are false.
I think Frank’s use of the term “fascism” is OK. I suspect Nick’s reluctance to use it comes partly from its common use by the old East German régime (Nie wieder Fascismus!” etc.). For all their sins though, they were (statistically) braver opponents of fascism than those who came to run West Germany.
A state of madness
The Royal Institute dictionary online provides the following definition for fascist: р╕Яр╕▓р╕кр╕Лр╕┤р╕кр╕Хр╣М р╕Щ. р╕ер╕▒р╕Чр╕Шр╕┤р╕Бр╕▓р╕гр╣Ар╕бр╕╖р╕нр╕Зр╕Чр╕╡р╣Ир╕Ьр╕╣р╣Йр╕Щр╣Нр╕▓р╕гр╕зр╕Ър╕нр╣Нр╕▓р╕Щр╕▓р╕Ир╕Чр╕▒р╣Йр╕Зр╕Чр╕▓р╕Зр╕Бр╕▓р╕гр╣Ар╕бр╕╖р╕нр╕З р╣Ар╕ир╕гр╕йр╕Рр╕Бр╕┤р╕И р╣Бр╕ер╕░ р╕кр╕▒р╕Зр╕Др╕бр╣Др╕зр╣Йр╕лр╕бр╕Ф р╣Бр╕ер╕░р╕бр╕╡р╕Щр╣Вр╕вр╕Ър╕▓р╕вр╕Кр╕▓р╕Хр╕┤р╕Щр╕┤р╕вр╕бр╕нр╕вр╣Ир╕▓р╕Зр╕гр╕╕р╕Щр╣Бр╕гр╕З р╣Бр╕Хр╣Ир╣Ар╕Др╕▓р╕гр╕Юр╣Гр╕Щ
р╕Бр╕гр╕гр╕бр╕кр╕┤р╕Чр╕Шр╕┤р╣Мр╕Вр╕нр╕Зр╣Ар╕нр╕Бр╕Кр╕Щ, р╕Ьр╕╣р╣Йр╕Чр╕╡р╣Ир╕Щр╕┤р╕вр╕бр╕ер╕▒р╕Чр╕Шр╕┤р╕Щр╕▒р╣Йр╕Щ. р╕з. р╣Ар╕Бр╕╡р╣Ир╕вр╕зр╕Бр╕▒р╕Ър╕ер╕▒р╕Чр╕Шр╕┤р╕Яр╕▓р╕кр╕Лр╕┤р╕кр╕Хр╣М.
(р╕н. fascism, fascist).
Translation: Political principle where leadership controls all political, economic and social power and where policy is strong nationalism, but honoring private ownership; cult popularity; relating to fascists. Looks like Thailand is fascist!!! Has always been but it is now being bilked for all it’s worth.
Can Myanmar keep getting better?
Em…. May not be!
Putting aside the in-borne laziness, some points will now be refuted simply for the sake of entertainment.
If all the above writing were cynical then that will need indication of which points were not right or over-inflated.
That stated example of robberies on the “A-myan-lan-ma-gyi”. Now people say you should check your wheels at the 115-mile Rest Stop for wood with nail spikes as that is how they try to stop the car to get on with their evil ways. (Mind you while reports of robberies were plenty so far no physical harm like rape reported, yet. And why should this happen at that road and not elsewhere- yet- is another story.) Now ask anyone in this forum or anywhere you can think of whether they would think of it as a “Rule of Law” issue. And then ask what are they prepared to do about it.
Then there is this little issue of Wun Paung (Norinco) contract. Why is it that Aung San Suu Kyi is so anxious to honor that- what is in common parlance called “Odious”- contract? Then again ask the same crowd of people whether what they think about it and what are they prepared to do about it.
In realty, what is going to happen is no one would give a sxxx about the first scenario (which is real) and if the dear Wun Paung is reverted, even though everyone hates Norinco, they would thoroughly recommend to take Burma to court for breach of that said “odious” contract. That is Rule of Law that woman was talking about in accord with her handlers (and the crowd that was asked would be somehow or other in tune with them as well.). 60 Judges!!! Wonderful.
If the truth is so sick, mere description of it does sound cynic. Agreed. Sort of thing Jack Nicholson might say “You can’t handle the truth.”
But hopelessness and Burma full of nincompoops was never implied or described. Au-contraire, the opposite is true.
During siege of Laizar (which is still going on like Indonesian peat fire- for the sake of Good Chocolate!) I felt that will be Than Shwe’s Waterloo if he attacked and destroyed it. We will never know that was true.
Here again the “Rape of the Last Virgin Land on Earth” will meet its Waterloo for the voracious, vicious and ruthless and Global Corporations if they do carry out the deed on Burma. Now the global players are too old and tired with one card trick for the last century, their “Snake-legs” are visible to any observers. And Burmese public are such observers. For them a spade is a spade.
Granted the “Idol-manufacturing” machinery complete with Global Institution Awards and Historic Western University and government establishment awards and recognition as well as usual bevy of “Celebrities” (usually high school drop outs) endorsement for popular acclaim does mesmerized the populace- for now. Before long people will see like the villagers in Lapadaung of the realty (Like finding the “Wizard” behind the curtain.
When that happens, they will know what to do just like Dorothy’s clicks.
I can assure you that will be the people with their immense wisdom and effort, but nothing whatsoever to do with International this and that be they money-wise (IMF, WB, ADB) or Judge-wise.
Oh! Almost forgot. The axis of power has well and truly changed. If not before definitely after 7 billion dollar Indian contract for S400’s and T90’s. Sorry China as well.
If you look at all the African and Latin American stories just about ALL non-compliers (quite long list here) were eliminated (easy to find their own kind to do the dirty) or turned. But that was before. Now Latin America has changed. African is distinctly in Chinese financial magnetism not American and British Glamour with wavering loyalty (all of a sudden dinner with Queen or White House reception or DSc from Harvard! don’t buy much nowadays!)
With competition, the consumers can get better value for what they pay for. On top of that if the dollar were to collapse as predicted in 2007, exact year Catholic Church is hoping to “unify” Christianity under new and improve Jesuit Pope!
Told you all will be entertaining!
A state of madness
I can add an addendum to Nick’s excellent analysis – I spent the year of 2014 in Phnom Penh and met a large number of exiled Thai dissidents and red shirts. Some of those living in exile had fled as a result of their political activities but many others had perpetrated violent attacks in 2010 and 2013/4 and openly admitted this. Anybody who spent any time talking to Thai exiles in Phnom Penh recently would easily be able to verify this. So it makes the denials from Jim Taylor and “Felix” rather absurd. Reality does not fit nearly into stereotypes and a good-versus-evil framework, and any credible observer needs to acknowledge the complexities of the situation, rather than taking refuge in propaganda.
A state of madness
Nick, I don’t suggest you waste your time debating “Felix”, who is a London-based armchair observes who comments online under a plethora of aliases, based on his prejudices rather than on the facts. I’m sure you know who I am talking about.
Can Myanmar keep getting better?
Man overboard!
Nationalism and genetics: Thai obsession with race
The “Indianization” of Southeast Asia proceeded from southern India (Chola etc.). These people were not particularly pale skinned.
Can Myanmar keep getting better?
#3.1.1.1.1
Deck chairs.
Madness and loyalty in Thailand
I suspect you know why. Your first comment I thumbed up for being correct, the 2nd I thumbed down as any truth it holds is overwhelmed by Prayuth’s inaction in the preceeding months to support the elected government.
Nationalism and genetics: Thai obsession with race
Any citations please, your evidence, since my understanding is there was a southward migration of Tai peoples from Yunnan into the Khmer Empire of old and into eastern Burma.
Can Myanmar keep getting better?
Sorry, the last sentence should read – The end is not nigh.
A state of madness
the second sentence of the last paragraph should read: “And until late November 2013…”. Sorry.
Can Myanmar keep getting better?
You really are more than an incorrigible cynic, Ohn – a misery guts and messiah of doom. The hopeless hapless Burmese can only “pinch their collective nose and suffocate themselves to death” as the old expression goes.
Baby steps to start with now that change is not only possible but probable. At least the political will so conspicuous in its absence for so long is there now.
No one is in denial even the ancien regime accepted with ill grace that the system is corrupt through and through. I hear the NLD will be replacing the regional level judges numbering to something like sixty. They are serious about this and there is both the good will, a critical eye and practical assistance from the international commission of jurists. Cheer up. The end is not high.
A state of madness
First of all, you were not the only anthropologist who researched the Red Shirts. Claudio Sopranzetti, for example, who now teaches at Oxford, also researched the Red Shirts as part of his thesis on motorcycle taxi drivers. And Claudio i have seen regularly on the ground – especially in 2010, including in some of the nastier places. Many other researchers i have regularly seen as well, such as ethnomusicologist Ben Tausig, sociologist Michael Nelson and quite a few others. Given that all of the already mentioned have quoted form my articles and books, maybe i am not as fuzzy as you assume.
I just do not look at the situation as a simplistic black and white situation, where i have to identify myself with just one side completely and therefore draw my information and sources from that side only and exclusively.
As to 2009 – it is quite simple to establish that there could not have been possibly be hundreds of deaths during that crackdown. The two contested events were the early morning attack at Din Daeng and the night fighting at Nang Lern. The day time events were so well observed that we have a very clear picture of what took place. Early morning i was present at the side of the Red Shirts, one of only a small handful of journos and the only Farang journo, and i have not seen any corpses (again, i do not exclude that there may have been a small number of dead as some of the escaping Red Shirts pointed out to me the location of one or the other corpse, but the only clear proof we have is of several injured). Several of my colleagues, very experienced ones – both Thai and farang, have been at the side of the military, and they have neither seen any corpses. In addition, some Red Shirts were also observing form the side of the military, and have not seen corpses either.
During the night fighting of Nang Learn i only was present during the initial phase, as it became to dangerous after nightfall. But i have during the night been in phone contact with several sources from all sides who took part in the fighting, and later interviews corroborated all one fact – that both sides saw exactly 4 people killed, 2 on each side. The two reported Yellow Shirts, and the two Red Shirt guards who were fished out later from the river with bound hands (which the Abhisit government refused to acknowledge to have been killed during the fighting).
As with all information, claims of extrajudicial killings have to be taken with a grain of salt, and corroborated with fact. Everybody exaggerates, under counts and denies depending on convenience. Rumor is easily taken as fact.
While i am aware that there were/are regularly such claims and rumors, and rarely do they pen out after thorough investigation. In this day and age it is very difficult to hide a large number of extrajudicial killings in Thailand, especially when it concerns normal citizens. Not just because of an increased awareness of the population, the wide spread of mobile phones with cameras, but also because a very large number of the security forces are Red Shirts or Red Shirt sympathizers or simply officers who want the truth to be known regardless which side may benefit. Secret information always trickles through. One just has to be careful not to be played, and therefore has to verify information from at least three independent sources. That takes time and effort, but is a necessary process.
Initially after 2010 there were a long list of missing people, but slowly that list got down, and most of these people were found to be hiding either in Thailand or in neighboring countries. The same counts for Aksa, were the claims of supposedly killed went from 5 in the evening of the coup to 20 on the next day, and more than 40 in the following days.
In the end, after much investigation by many sides it turned out that indeed none were killed, and several who were supposedly killed appeared in person during the initial anti-coup protests. I have been at such scenes were people believed to have been killed were greeted by friends with surprise.
What has to be done with claims of extra-judicially killed people is not to just accept such claims, but take these claims as a base of research, but try to get documentation, access to witnesses, and very importantly, have trusted sources in the security and intelligence agencies. Trusted mean that every piece of information you get has to still be corroborated, and constantly verified for accuracy, to avoid falling into the trap of being played.
We do have clear evidence of a number of extra-judicial killings during and after 2010, and also during the 2013/2014 PDRC protests. The majority were committed by the state authorities, and a small number by Red Shirts and by Yellow Shirts as well. Some cases are more detailed, others less so.
But the claim of “hundreds” is unsubstantiated and plain hysterical. It is shocking enough that such incidents took place, and it is better to concentrate on those than exaggerating and go into the territory of myth and legend (which, is interesting in itself, and does partly shape perception, but is still urban legend).
This is not about keeping an open mind, by painstaking work trying to verify every bit of information in order to establish what has taken place, beyond reasonable doubt and as much as we are able to. The truth is neither Red nor Yellow.
As to your access, i am more than aware of all the organizations you talk about, and also the individual leaders whose names you dropped over time (and naturally, some more). And it may come as a surprise to you – but i know each of the ones you mentioned as well, agree in some points with them, and disagree in others.
So, please, stop trying to portray me as an idiot with a camera. I have followed the Red/Yellow conflict from late 2005 until now. And until late November i spent equal time on both sides. While i can’t go to Yellow events anymore, i still have long time sources in that camp with whom i still talk. In that decade even stupid me without a degree may have picked up some… 😉
Can Myanmar keep getting better?
The judiciary in the “west” is just is a misconception. It differs only in visibility. Bad as the Asian law industry may be, there is truly on one who cannot be bought. Only the price differs.
Justice, if that is what we are interested here, is a fundamental “Human” value. Indeed even animals have it. No one needs to fly 8000 miles to find justice. It is everywhere if desired. Only if desired.
That said, the ROL thingy Aung San Suu Kyi used to mantra before is a different one altogether. She, using her freedom to promote others’ and “freedom from fear” and all those highly romanticized BS, never seems to mind numerous visible industrial injustices, land grab which is getting worse by hours, White-phosphorous bombing sleeping monks in the middle of night on a religious day, hundreds of thousands running away from fighting’s, air force bombing and strafing in a civil war, resource theft in day light, burning people alive in day light or shopping into pieces or daily robbery and murders including the ones on the “A-myan-lan-ma-gyi” , etc. are of none of her concern at all. And therefore none of anybody’s concern as the people of Burma can think only as far as she tells them.
The ROL that was talked about and now will be talked about and are now of single most interested topic by the “West” is the very ROL Chomsky pointed out from the Federalist Papers that the minority who owns the property – be they physical or intellectual or others (remember Japan is patenting Tha-na-khar now) – can have their rights protected by guns against the majority these rights are used to exploit.
In other words, the land grab all the “cronies” (by the way Shwe Mann’s sons are most prominent here) and “Sit-tut” and indeed the Chinese are doing right now is OK. But when the current land owners (of course with no paper to show therefore have no right, easy!!!!) want to go anywhere near their old place then the gun-toting ROL will bite them.
You can bet you last dollar that that is the only single thing all the “Business community” and “International corporations” and “development organization” and any other f-w named outfits are interested. They want some one of “local” origin who will so their dirty work.
That is the only ROL everyone is interested.
Again, there is not a single Judge or judiciary of any sort on earth who cannot be bought. Just the price differs. Courses!!!!!!
A state of madness
N.Nostitz: I am not sure that trying to belittle the writer to cover your own blatant lack of understanding, or to maintain your own fuzzy position, is credible. As it happens I was living in Thailand for many years, conducted ethnographic research from 2007-11 on the “red shirts” (possibly the only anthropologist to do this), interviewed hundreds of people at all levels and have access to information that you may not be aware of. As for the red shirts who died or disappeared for believing in rights, freedom and democracy 2009-2011 (–and of course continuing), we may never know the exact number: Indeed how could we in a fascistic state that controls information? The only credible way is to piece together as objectively as possible (discounting the likes of biased amaat media such as “Bangkok Post”, given its ultra-royalists financiers, e.g. Chirathivat) and from informants involved on the ground. In one NE province alone there were dozens of funerals in the months following the first crackdown/ and if families were able to get the bodies of their loved ones from the army. Provincial leaders everywhere told me that dozens of people remain unaccounted for in many districts. Pro-amaat Yellow hospitals in Bangkok also “doctored” records to hide the red shirt casualties and deaths. The Democrat Party’s BMA were always quick to obliterate evidence from the streets. But we can be sure that deaths were in the hundreds over this period, not just at the demonstrations, but selectively in the provinces during the subsequent witch hunt. Not sure where you were looking at the time! Human Rights Watch and iLaw Thailand also some limited information, as does the legal team that worked for UDD to be made ready for the ICJ at the right time. We may even be understating the numbers. No doubt the ugly truth will reveal itself one day. Meanwhile I suggest you keep an open mind for when the truth does come to light.
Dog v dog: Theatrics of the Thai interregnum
Thanks for your considered response, Christine. Fair enough. The points you make are certainly interesting and good humored too. Perhaps I am being too cynical about the current crop of… inhabiting the performative space. One sees virtually no interest or understanding of history in modern Thailand (or anywhere else for that matter)let alone an appreciation of the subtleties of cultural anthropology.
Madness and loyalty in Thailand
Cut off and posted without completing or corrections…
Christine Gray (not Grey) is the author of perspicacious NM blog published on 22nd December.
Using the ‘shades of grey” analogy in discussing many political developments in SEA, has become somewhat problematical given both the existence of an American semi-porn film with this title, and, more importantly for NM readers, Jusuf Wanadi’s memoir published in Jakarta under this title, in both bahasa and English by Equinox.
Dog v dog: Theatrics of the Thai interregnum
Christine Gray – despite what Judith Stowe says, Siam NEVER became Thailand. Siam is democracy under the monarchy. Thailand is simply a military dictatorship.
Can Myanmar keep getting better?
Ohn
Unless all judiciary personnel are amoral, incorrigible and can not be redeemed in anyway, it will only take one who is encouraged to be ‘Just as precedence’ to effect the future examplE TO ROL.
A quality only the west can provide. Even though this has been stretched to the extreme.
For those who are real loud in blaming the lack of ROL, UN, HR org and NGOs, this is your best time and chance to make the difference, speak up or forever hold thy peace.