Sorry for joining to late to the debate. I just have come across this very interesting blog site today.
There is a very interesting article from a research group from Stanford University with regards to the persistence of Dravidian gene pool among Indo-Aryan speakers in India (http://www.biomedcentral.com/1471-2156/5/26). Therefore, the linguistig evidence does not have to convey the real composition of the population. I believe we can be pretty sure that the Tai migration has never occured in a scale as it might have been in Europe during the Migration Period. I see many parallels to the Indo-Aryan migration into the Indian sub-continent. As it was the case with the Indo-Aryan speaker, the Tai migration occured as a strata, i.e. the invading Tai formed an aristrocracy which over time assimilated the resident population (infact, it was a mutual assimilation as we can see many Khmer elements in the present Thai culture today). Contrary to Assam, where the Ahom finally got Aryan-ised as a consequence of the Indo-Aryan pressure, history took a different turn in Southeast Asia.
Nevertheless, I dare to argue that, genetically, the majority of the Thai polulation is Khmer, Mon, K’mu or whatever group existed prior to the “Tai-isation”. An exception could be the Thai aristrocracy if they resisted any intermarriages with the local population.
I definitely will not make friends among the Thai academic circle and I reckon that it is difficult for anyone coming forward with this idea in Thailand. I would really encourage an international research group to come up with a interdisciplinary study about the genetic distribution in Southeast Asia including South China and Northeast India. I would start it myself if I was not forced to follow a different professional career after my studies.
The Canadians are now advising against all non-essential travel to Bangkok.
“You are advised against non-essential travel to the capital, Bangkok. On December 31, 2006, a series of bombs exploded in the city, killing three and wounding over 30 people. There exists the possibility of further attacks. The Thai Ministry of the Interior issued a security alert for Bangkok on February 23, 2007, due to reports of possible attacks targeting public places such as shopping centres and public transportation. Canadians currently in Bangkok should maintain a high level of personal security awareness at all times, avoid unnecessary travel within the city, monitor local news reports and follow the advice of local authorities”
This whole thing might well go beyond what happened to that poor foreign businessman who had to spent several months in a Thai jail, because he had insisted on his rights vis-a-vis the demands of a royal while travelling in the first class of a Thai International (if I remember correctly) flight.
21 Jan: Ah, now you have exposed yourself! That partly explains your good knowledge of German history demonstrated in an earlier post. I guess the bread question becomes more important if one lives outside Germany–as a symbol of cultural-dietary identity (more important perhaps than Haribo or Ritter Sport), so to speak. But I don’t want to take this issue too seriously.
Batman: Thanks for joining this Krautish discussion, even as a nil-Kraut. Good bread can be found at Bei Otto (Sukhumvit Soi 20), or at the bakery section in the Food Hall of Central Chitlom. Attempts to bring in Mestemacher bread have failed, because the market is too small.
Being Kraut myself – although thai-ilized by my better half – I was just joking. Of course I would prefer German bread – although I never understood that the bread-preference is a quasi religious thing in Germany.
21 Jan: I agree, the law should be scrapped. They should have just deported him the next day – he’s probably lucky that a mob did not catch him in the act.
I am nil-Kraut but I would love some German bread as it sure beats that white bread rubbish they sell. Also how do they keep Thai bread from going mouldy? I have bread 3 weeks old that I am still eating.
Taxi Driver: A fist fight between me and HPB would not endanger the country’s instability, but merely those two farang’s health (mine in particular). I admit that my reaction was purely based on personal reasons with no general validity.
Taxi Driver, now your “Tax-dina” reaches perfection. (btw has your alias anything to do with your proposal – should we write it TAXi Driver?)
I hadn’t thought of the connection CPB and Danish Milk but maybe deep inside I might be a staunchly royalist (No, just kidding)
The Australian Gov updated its travel advice for Thailand today with what seemed like a more explicit warning of possible bombs today than the Thai English language papers were reporting.
“Reports indicate possible bombing attacks at crowded places such as department stores, and sky-train and subway stations in Bangkok on Friday 23 February 2007.” http://www.smartraveller.gov.au/zw-cgi/view/Advice/Thailand
Srithanonchai you’re being a tad harsh stripping away my right to vote just because I suggested you work with HPB. What hurts even more is that you didn’t even bother to justify your action on grounds that my suggestion could lead to “violence and instability” (fistycuffs between yourself and HPB on the Korat plateau). The CNS at least cited this as a reason for stripping away my voting rights back in September. When I’m being bum-f**d, I at least would like to know its for a worthwhile reason!
21Jan, most Asian kids are lactose intolerant anyway so milk is the worst thing for them. Interesting that you mention milk though…Danish-Thai….who owns that I wonder.
To dovetail in with the sufficiency economy agenda we can set the tax rate very progressively, so that past a certain “sufficient” income level (say 10 million Baht per month) the tax rate is set at 100%. The Sampeng-ites can sell as much Krating Daengs and Mekongs as they like but their wealth (after tax) won’t increase past that point. They will, however, continue to accumulate more Nas, which is fair because they are contributing to society by generating jobs, etc. Its only fair that such people have a greater say than the rest of us in how the country is managed.
nganadeeleg, how generous of you, even when the Chiang Mai police suggests that Jufer was paid by the Antichr…err Thaksin. 75 years for 5 graffitis – this shows clearly that this law should be scrapped (even if he will get just deported in the end – he stays now in jail for 2 1/2 month)
Ethnically, I am only half-Kraut; culturally, I am full-Kraut. Thus I am fully behind delicious German bread, even if some culinary ignorants don’t see its value.
Just one more thing, Taxi Driver: Your voting-system might have some strange consequences if you look at the people who could get the most Nas: The school milk might be substituted with Red Bull and every adult has to buy a compulsory bottle of Mekong whisky… or vice versa.
Tara, I have to second your points about the agency and ability of the Kachin activists. I have found that many of the Kachin pastors and church workers I have met have been highly intelligent, motivated individuals with edge of cynical shrewdness that seems to be the result of living under an oppressive regime. Between a Kachin village pastor and a Western Burma activist, Christian or otherwise, I’d put my money on the pastor as to being the one pulling the strings. For that matter, I’d put my money on the pastor versus a Western academic, lawyer, business leader, politician, religious leader etc. Did I mention the cynical shrewdness? I’m sure the same holds true for Chins, but I’ve had only limited dealings with them.
It should also be pointed out that for the Kachins, just about the only higher learning (in a Western sense) available is religious. Of course, this has been the case for most cultures until quite recently; monks controlled education in both Western Europe and Southeast Asia for centuries. Consequently, there are many pastors that, given a different set of circumstance, I suspect wouldn’t be pastors, but rather, educators, scientists, statesmen/women and business leaders. However, currently that isn’t an option, and has the unintended result of intertwining ethnicity, politics, and spirituality. But as Tara points out, that is a problem of Western perception, not necessarily Kachin and Chin perception.
Also, Western colonialism and missionary effort, despite their intentions, were not homogeneous monoliths, and in Burma have resulted in a few twists that might run counter to outside perceptions. For example, the first missionaries among the Kachins were Karens, and the Kachins have subsequently engaged in missionary efforts of their own, largely independent of outside support. And clearly Christianity plays an important role in ethnic identity, but the reverse is also true. Go to just about any Kachin church built in recent years in the Northern Shan State and notice all manau post designs used to decorate the church. I suspect the missionaries are turning over in their graves.
Nicholas, thanks once again for the blog and your posts
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Nationalism and genetics: Thai obsession with race
Sorry for joining to late to the debate. I just have come across this very interesting blog site today.
There is a very interesting article from a research group from Stanford University with regards to the persistence of Dravidian gene pool among Indo-Aryan speakers in India (http://www.biomedcentral.com/1471-2156/5/26). Therefore, the linguistig evidence does not have to convey the real composition of the population. I believe we can be pretty sure that the Tai migration has never occured in a scale as it might have been in Europe during the Migration Period. I see many parallels to the Indo-Aryan migration into the Indian sub-continent. As it was the case with the Indo-Aryan speaker, the Tai migration occured as a strata, i.e. the invading Tai formed an aristrocracy which over time assimilated the resident population (infact, it was a mutual assimilation as we can see many Khmer elements in the present Thai culture today). Contrary to Assam, where the Ahom finally got Aryan-ised as a consequence of the Indo-Aryan pressure, history took a different turn in Southeast Asia.
Nevertheless, I dare to argue that, genetically, the majority of the Thai polulation is Khmer, Mon, K’mu or whatever group existed prior to the “Tai-isation”. An exception could be the Thai aristrocracy if they resisted any intermarriages with the local population.
I definitely will not make friends among the Thai academic circle and I reckon that it is difficult for anyone coming forward with this idea in Thailand. I would really encourage an international research group to come up with a interdisciplinary study about the genetic distribution in Southeast Asia including South China and Northeast India. I would start it myself if I was not forced to follow a different professional career after my studies.
Intelligence?
The Canadians are now advising against all non-essential travel to Bangkok.
“You are advised against non-essential travel to the capital, Bangkok. On December 31, 2006, a series of bombs exploded in the city, killing three and wounding over 30 people. There exists the possibility of further attacks. The Thai Ministry of the Interior issued a security alert for Bangkok on February 23, 2007, due to reports of possible attacks targeting public places such as shopping centres and public transportation. Canadians currently in Bangkok should maintain a high level of personal security awareness at all times, avoid unnecessary travel within the city, monitor local news reports and follow the advice of local authorities”
Lèse majesté charges in Chiang Mai
This whole thing might well go beyond what happened to that poor foreign businessman who had to spent several months in a Thai jail, because he had insisted on his rights vis-a-vis the demands of a royal while travelling in the first class of a Thai International (if I remember correctly) flight.
Somkid, sandwiches and sufficiency
21 Jan: Ah, now you have exposed yourself! That partly explains your good knowledge of German history demonstrated in an earlier post. I guess the bread question becomes more important if one lives outside Germany–as a symbol of cultural-dietary identity (more important perhaps than Haribo or Ritter Sport), so to speak. But I don’t want to take this issue too seriously.
Batman: Thanks for joining this Krautish discussion, even as a nil-Kraut. Good bread can be found at Bei Otto (Sukhumvit Soi 20), or at the bakery section in the Food Hall of Central Chitlom. Attempts to bring in Mestemacher bread have failed, because the market is too small.
Intelligence?
They should stick to selling tom yam koong…
Somkid, sandwiches and sufficiency
Being Kraut myself – although thai-ilized by my better half – I was just joking. Of course I would prefer German bread – although I never understood that the bread-preference is a quasi religious thing in Germany.
Lèse majesté charges in Chiang Mai
21 Jan: I agree, the law should be scrapped. They should have just deported him the next day – he’s probably lucky that a mob did not catch him in the act.
Somkid, sandwiches and sufficiency
I am nil-Kraut but I would love some German bread as it sure beats that white bread rubbish they sell. Also how do they keep Thai bread from going mouldy? I have bread 3 weeks old that I am still eating.
New Sakdina
Taxi Driver: A fist fight between me and HPB would not endanger the country’s instability, but merely those two farang’s health (mine in particular). I admit that my reaction was purely based on personal reasons with no general validity.
New Sakdina
Taxi Driver, now your “Tax-dina” reaches perfection. (btw has your alias anything to do with your proposal – should we write it TAXi Driver?)
I hadn’t thought of the connection CPB and Danish Milk but maybe deep inside I might be a staunchly royalist (No, just kidding)
Intelligence?
The Australian Gov updated its travel advice for Thailand today with what seemed like a more explicit warning of possible bombs today than the Thai English language papers were reporting.
“Reports indicate possible bombing attacks at crowded places such as department stores, and sky-train and subway stations in Bangkok on Friday 23 February 2007.”
http://www.smartraveller.gov.au/zw-cgi/view/Advice/Thailand
New Sakdina
Srithanonchai you’re being a tad harsh stripping away my right to vote just because I suggested you work with HPB. What hurts even more is that you didn’t even bother to justify your action on grounds that my suggestion could lead to “violence and instability” (fistycuffs between yourself and HPB on the Korat plateau). The CNS at least cited this as a reason for stripping away my voting rights back in September. When I’m being bum-f**d, I at least would like to know its for a worthwhile reason!
21Jan, most Asian kids are lactose intolerant anyway so milk is the worst thing for them. Interesting that you mention milk though…Danish-Thai….who owns that I wonder.
To dovetail in with the sufficiency economy agenda we can set the tax rate very progressively, so that past a certain “sufficient” income level (say 10 million Baht per month) the tax rate is set at 100%. The Sampeng-ites can sell as much Krating Daengs and Mekongs as they like but their wealth (after tax) won’t increase past that point. They will, however, continue to accumulate more Nas, which is fair because they are contributing to society by generating jobs, etc. Its only fair that such people have a greater say than the rest of us in how the country is managed.
Lèse majesté charges in Chiang Mai
nganadeeleg, how generous of you, even when the Chiang Mai police suggests that Jufer was paid by the Antichr…err Thaksin. 75 years for 5 graffitis – this shows clearly that this law should be scrapped (even if he will get just deported in the end – he stays now in jail for 2 1/2 month)
Somkid, sandwiches and sufficiency
Ethnically, I am only half-Kraut; culturally, I am full-Kraut. Thus I am fully behind delicious German bread, even if some culinary ignorants don’t see its value.
New Sakdina
Just one more thing, Taxi Driver: Your voting-system might have some strange consequences if you look at the people who could get the most Nas: The school milk might be substituted with Red Bull and every adult has to buy a compulsory bottle of Mekong whisky… or vice versa.
Somkid, sandwiches and sufficiency
No Srithanonchai, zis is zomezinck only ze Krauts k├дn eat.
Tutu on South Africa’s Burma vote
i think that this was very wrongful of what they did.
“Carrying the Cross”: Christians and Burma
Tara, I have to second your points about the agency and ability of the Kachin activists. I have found that many of the Kachin pastors and church workers I have met have been highly intelligent, motivated individuals with edge of cynical shrewdness that seems to be the result of living under an oppressive regime. Between a Kachin village pastor and a Western Burma activist, Christian or otherwise, I’d put my money on the pastor as to being the one pulling the strings. For that matter, I’d put my money on the pastor versus a Western academic, lawyer, business leader, politician, religious leader etc. Did I mention the cynical shrewdness? I’m sure the same holds true for Chins, but I’ve had only limited dealings with them.
It should also be pointed out that for the Kachins, just about the only higher learning (in a Western sense) available is religious. Of course, this has been the case for most cultures until quite recently; monks controlled education in both Western Europe and Southeast Asia for centuries. Consequently, there are many pastors that, given a different set of circumstance, I suspect wouldn’t be pastors, but rather, educators, scientists, statesmen/women and business leaders. However, currently that isn’t an option, and has the unintended result of intertwining ethnicity, politics, and spirituality. But as Tara points out, that is a problem of Western perception, not necessarily Kachin and Chin perception.
Also, Western colonialism and missionary effort, despite their intentions, were not homogeneous monoliths, and in Burma have resulted in a few twists that might run counter to outside perceptions. For example, the first missionaries among the Kachins were Karens, and the Kachins have subsequently engaged in missionary efforts of their own, largely independent of outside support. And clearly Christianity plays an important role in ethnic identity, but the reverse is also true. Go to just about any Kachin church built in recent years in the Northern Shan State and notice all manau post designs used to decorate the church. I suspect the missionaries are turning over in their graves.
Nicholas, thanks once again for the blog and your posts
Sore loser
You may not like Anek’s proposed solution, but he has identified the problem.
Is he merely a ‘sore loser’ as AW would like us to believe, or does he have legitimate concerns that the majority is not always right?
Lèse majesté charges in Chiang Mai
“Jufer has been in jail since he was arrested in December”
I think it would be better to just deport him.
No need to charge him with lese majeste – defacing public property/vandalism should be enough.