Burma presents little international threat! The UN bill would have set a very controversial precedent for other UN member nations if it went through (–tantamount on giving some justification for Iraq!) What is the motivation for the US & UK to free Burma? Totally post material and humane, sure! Not at all as ethically sound as the conspiracy theories attached to China, Russia and South Africa’s rejection!
Yes, the Burmese situation is horrible, but there are countless other horrible situations within nations all over the world. Archbishop Tutu’s opinions on Zimbabwe, Swaziland and even South Africa are not given weight in countries more local to him because he is a humanist and does not accept the aspect of cruelty being necessary for state survival. Do people in development forget that we still live in a state based international system?!
It is a betrayal of our own noble past.
Hardly! Mandela & the ANC did not need international support to initially free itself from apartheid!
Surely nations who have been through a process of self-determination are much more likely to be stronger communicative bodies in the international system and not become pseudo NIE’s for the free market West. Therefore if the diabolical situation in Burma is to stop, Burmese must liberate themselves. If our fingers get deeper into the pie, surely Burmese people will be still subject to an oppression we ironically ‘gave them’ subsequently causing another facet of Burmese social disintegration.
sincerely hanging onto the world government dream,
White Elephant
You are drawing a long bow in reaching your conclusion, Republican – “we have no choice but to support Thaksin”…… “supporting Thaksin means in effect opposing the King”…….”the King vs the People”
The King was not in the election.
Does your blind hatred make you forget that when asked to personally intervene in the stalemate, the King declined, and advised the politicians and courts to sort it out.
Call it a personality cult if you will, but what makes you think Thaksin was not pursuing a similar path?
Why did Thaksin have to go so far as to make it ‘him or the king’?
Once he stepped over that line, a coup was inevitable (sooner or later).
It was not necessary to take things so far if he was merely a champion of the poor, so he obviously had other, more sinister, plans.
I suspect Thaksin was banking on the King’s frailty and old age, but he miscalculated because those things would also have been factors for the military to ponder.
Frankly, I think if the King died tomorrow, Prem would simply cover up the news.
Prem’s job is to preserve the monarchy. If the public knew that their beloved King were dead and that next in line to the throne were his hated son, the monarchy would fall apart.
A few years of good PR (marrying this new lady, having a “legitimate” son, piloting charity flights) can change perceptions built up over 30 years of naughtiness.
Interesting statement: “…representative institutions, HOWEVER FLAWED, are a much better way of managing the divisions and competing interests than authoritarianism wielding a myth of unity….”
If one is to take this logic to its natural conclusion then it seems to me that Chang Noi is making the argument that we have no choice but to support Thaksin, because “however flawed” he might be, the “representative institutions” which enabled him to rise to power are “much better” than “authoritarianism…” Otherwise, Chang Noi should have written: “…representative institutions … are a much better way of managing the divisions and competing interests …. except in the case when these institutions lead to the election of someone like Thaksin. In that case we should support the King and the military to use tanks and guns to overthrow a democratically elected government.” But he didn’t.
So by virtue of this uncomfortable logic we must support Thaksin. But we have come too far now not to know that supporting Thaksin means in effect opposing the King. This is the next step that is so hard for people to make, as in the case of Chang Noi’s taxi driver. 60 years of relentless propaganda, a personality cult which today has reached the limits of absurdity, the political weapon par excellence of lese majeste, and, we should never forget, the brutal, merciless suppression of anti-royalism, as in the case of the 6th October massacre, have made such a thing almost unthinkable.
But this is the corner into which the King, royalist officers in the military, and their ratchakan cronies whose status depends entirely upon the aura of the monarchy, have painted themselves: the King vs the People. If the monarchy endorses the overthrow of a democratically elected government, and then a little too enthusiastically gives its support to a regime increasingly hated even by those who supported the coup, one must accept the consequences.
It seems to me that we have entered the last days of the so-called “Democracy with the Great King as the Head of State”.
Talking about being factually correct, on the first page of the book, Handley already got it wrong. King Bhumibol was born at the Mt. Auburn Hospital in Cambridge Mass., not in Brookline. …. Need I say more…..
I like this debate, but I do not take side because I haven’t done my own critical study on this subject. This subject has been bugging me for about 6 years (because I am post-1988 generation).
I used to be a supporter of pro-democracy groups. But after 5-6 years of my life working them some organization in Thailand and listening to what they say, I lost my confident in them. They are not critical. Their writings are one-sided which doesn’t pay enough attention to the limitations of their arguments, strategies and effectiveness. I used to support economic sanction. But no more. Why? Because when I supported it, I didn’t have any clue. I just follow pro-democracy groups. I bet there are many who are following the leading groups like I did. One active proponant of economic sanction told me that economic sanction might not work, but this is one strategy to do the job. I.e. they have something to do atleast.
I think pro-saction groups are making arguments without any empirical evidences. I havn’t seen any critical studies about sanction produced by pro-sanction groups. There are many self-publishing articles. Of course, they are more subjective and based on sanction vs. no-sanction. Some of them are just opinion of the writers.
I am not taking side, but I won’t believe in economic sanction unless I see evidence.
[…] Further to my previous posts on the UN Security Council vote on Burma, Nobel Laureate Desmond Tutu has now been widely quoted in the South African media.┬ He does not mince his words: I am deeply disappointed by our vote. It is a betrayal of our own noble past. Many in the international community can hardly believe it. It is inexplicable…The tyrannical military regime is gloating, and we sided with them… […]
[…] For the full series of New Mandala posts on Mekong River traders, go to Golden Boat update 1, update 2, update 3, update 4, update 5, update 6┬ and update 7. […]
Taxi Driver
I believe there is a rumour, circulating in the thai stock market at least, on the possibility of abdication (similar to Bhutan).
Before this, it has never crossed my mind before. But come to think of it, this is probably the best option available for the Network to ensure continuity of its rule.
[…] For the full series of New Mandala posts on Mekong River traders, go to Golden Boat update 1, update 2, update 3, update 4, update 5, update 6┬ and update 7. […]
[…] For the full series of New Mandala posts on Mekong River traders, go to Golden Boat update 1, update 2, update 3, update 4, update 5, update 6┬ and update 7. […]
Sumet simply is one of the most annoying proponents of royalist propaganda around. And with his actions, he hides behind the impossibility of critically taking him to task. Thailand can never be a democracy until such pockets of unaccountability are gone (but there are many other things that also need to go, such as military coups, megalomaniacs such as Thaksin, irresponsible newspapers such as The Nation, corrupt bureaucrats, narrow-minded activists, the political exclusion of the majority, etc.).
Has anyone thought about what may unfold if HMK suddenly passes away (sawanakot) tomorrow while this junta is still in power?
[I am sure various intel agencies domestic and foreign have performed this scenario analysis, but it is predictably absent from public discourse in Thailand. I guess its another example of how Les Majeste prevents public debate on a very important topic (one runs the risk of being accused of les majeste by discussing the death of the King…another irrational absurdity but sadly a fact of life in good ol’ Thailand)].
Of course, the military, in doing its coup, acted on its own. Thus, we can put the blame solely on it. No need to involve Prem, or the royalists, or perhaps even the monarchy. But what could you expect from Chang Noi after the UNDP’s glorification of the sufficiency economy?
Thank you for this link. The paper by Peter Calkins was interesting to read. Another fruitful line of comparison is Meng Tzu or Mencius, the Chinese philosopher. I’ve noticed many similarities when reading Meng Tzu, for instance the stress on **particular farming practices to build strength against external economic shocks***:
“If mulberry trees are planted around homesteads of an acre, then people fifty years old can be clothed in silk. If, in the raising of fowl, pigs, dogs and swine, their breeding times are not missed, then people seventy years old can eat meat. If you do not upset the farming schedule in a farm of twenty acres, then a large clan will never be hungry. Pay careful attention to education, basing it on the Rightness of filial piety and respect for elders, and the gray-haired people will not be in the streets carrying heavy burdens on their backs. There has never been a case where the people of seventy were eating meat and the black-haired people were free from cold and hunger, where the king was not well regarded.” http://www.hm.tyg.jp/~acmuller/contao/mencius.html
“…Mencius regarded the transformative power of a cultivated person as the ideal basis for government. In addition, he spelled out more explicitly the idea that order in society depends on proper attitudes within the family, which in turn depends on cultivating oneself. Also, he made explicit the point that gaining the heart/mind of the people is the basis for legitimate government, as it is the response of the people that reveals who has the authority from tian to take up the position of king. Only the ruler who practices ren [benevolent] government can draw the allegiance of the people, and such a ruler will become invincible, not in the sense of superior military strength, but in the sense of being without opposition. A ren ruler enjoys the allegiance of the people and is unlikely to confront any hostilities…” http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/mencius/#4
“Who said people with higher education have a higher [political] morality than rural voters?…
[…It’s the same false logic that contends rich politicians aren’t corrupt. While the poor may get trapped by populism, the middle class also gets stuck in flawed ideologies. To me, this emphasises the fairness of the ‘one man, one vote’ system,” Viroj said.”]
IMHO There is one very important way in which Thais with higher education have (in aggregate) higher morality and serve as a moral exemplar for the less-educated and poorer voters.
In aggregate they simply ***take better care of their children*** and this builds a better community. They are more likely to:
1. Send their to school: Mattayom, college, graduate school.
2. Less likely to allow their children to run around at night on motorcycles, drink, and take drugs.
3. More likely to expect their children to get married in a traditional fashion and raise their family in a responsible fashoin, rather than to get some young woman pregnant and then runaway.
4. Less likely to send their daughter to a Bangkok brothel, karaoke, massage parlour, etc.
5. More likely to experience some change in family fortunes, from generation to generation, like increased social status, or wealth, because their children move in a higher status university educated social group university, for instance..
This is based on observation. I live in a rural area when I’m not working in Bangkok. If I was a political scientist or a sociologist, maybe I’d do an empirical study, but I specialize in economics journalism and Burmese history (c. 1350-1600).
Although education tends to be associated with having some money, people in rural areas often take good care of their children too even if they pull them out of school early, for instance having them work in a small family business, but the poor pulling their children out of school or allowing their children to leave school at an early age is very common in Thailand and does contribute to the social problems enumerated above which anyone can observe with their own eyes if they live in a small rural town or village long enough.
A military dictatorship with an ethical and effective leader would definitely work and last till the leader dies.
A democracy too with an ethical leader and effective leader would definitely work and that leader would be re-elected for as long as he remains effective and ethical.
So Anon . . how do we proceed from your premise above?
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Tutu on South Africa’s Burma vote
Burma presents little international threat! The UN bill would have set a very controversial precedent for other UN member nations if it went through (–tantamount on giving some justification for Iraq!) What is the motivation for the US & UK to free Burma? Totally post material and humane, sure! Not at all as ethically sound as the conspiracy theories attached to China, Russia and South Africa’s rejection!
Yes, the Burmese situation is horrible, but there are countless other horrible situations within nations all over the world. Archbishop Tutu’s opinions on Zimbabwe, Swaziland and even South Africa are not given weight in countries more local to him because he is a humanist and does not accept the aspect of cruelty being necessary for state survival. Do people in development forget that we still live in a state based international system?!
It is a betrayal of our own noble past.
Hardly! Mandela & the ANC did not need international support to initially free itself from apartheid!
Surely nations who have been through a process of self-determination are much more likely to be stronger communicative bodies in the international system and not become pseudo NIE’s for the free market West. Therefore if the diabolical situation in Burma is to stop, Burmese must liberate themselves. If our fingers get deeper into the pie, surely Burmese people will be still subject to an oppression we ironically ‘gave them’ subsequently causing another facet of Burmese social disintegration.
sincerely hanging onto the world government dream,
White Elephant
Chang Noi on ‘unity’ and the dictatorship
You are drawing a long bow in reaching your conclusion, Republican – “we have no choice but to support Thaksin”…… “supporting Thaksin means in effect opposing the King”…….”the King vs the People”
The King was not in the election.
Does your blind hatred make you forget that when asked to personally intervene in the stalemate, the King declined, and advised the politicians and courts to sort it out.
Call it a personality cult if you will, but what makes you think Thaksin was not pursuing a similar path?
Why did Thaksin have to go so far as to make it ‘him or the king’?
Once he stepped over that line, a coup was inevitable (sooner or later).
It was not necessary to take things so far if he was merely a champion of the poor, so he obviously had other, more sinister, plans.
I suspect Thaksin was banking on the King’s frailty and old age, but he miscalculated because those things would also have been factors for the military to ponder.
Chang Noi on ‘unity’ and the dictatorship
Frankly, I think if the King died tomorrow, Prem would simply cover up the news.
Prem’s job is to preserve the monarchy. If the public knew that their beloved King were dead and that next in line to the throne were his hated son, the monarchy would fall apart.
A few years of good PR (marrying this new lady, having a “legitimate” son, piloting charity flights) can change perceptions built up over 30 years of naughtiness.
Is that a gun in your pocket, or are you just unhappy to see me?
comment 14—if u r the family of the 2,500 victims????
Chang Noi on ‘unity’ and the dictatorship
Interesting statement: “…representative institutions, HOWEVER FLAWED, are a much better way of managing the divisions and competing interests than authoritarianism wielding a myth of unity….”
If one is to take this logic to its natural conclusion then it seems to me that Chang Noi is making the argument that we have no choice but to support Thaksin, because “however flawed” he might be, the “representative institutions” which enabled him to rise to power are “much better” than “authoritarianism…” Otherwise, Chang Noi should have written: “…representative institutions … are a much better way of managing the divisions and competing interests …. except in the case when these institutions lead to the election of someone like Thaksin. In that case we should support the King and the military to use tanks and guns to overthrow a democratically elected government.” But he didn’t.
So by virtue of this uncomfortable logic we must support Thaksin. But we have come too far now not to know that supporting Thaksin means in effect opposing the King. This is the next step that is so hard for people to make, as in the case of Chang Noi’s taxi driver. 60 years of relentless propaganda, a personality cult which today has reached the limits of absurdity, the political weapon par excellence of lese majeste, and, we should never forget, the brutal, merciless suppression of anti-royalism, as in the case of the 6th October massacre, have made such a thing almost unthinkable.
But this is the corner into which the King, royalist officers in the military, and their ratchakan cronies whose status depends entirely upon the aura of the monarchy, have painted themselves: the King vs the People. If the monarchy endorses the overthrow of a democratically elected government, and then a little too enthusiastically gives its support to a regime increasingly hated even by those who supported the coup, one must accept the consequences.
It seems to me that we have entered the last days of the so-called “Democracy with the Great King as the Head of State”.
The King Never Smiles?
Talking about being factually correct, on the first page of the book, Handley already got it wrong. King Bhumibol was born at the Mt. Auburn Hospital in Cambridge Mass., not in Brookline. …. Need I say more…..
One vote, one value
Try as I may Mr. Jon Fernquest your lengthy post leaves me bewildered and lost. What was it you were trying to convey Mr. Fernquest?
Do you condemn Bangkok because they have more money and praise the poor because their lives are simpler and more basic?
Steinberg vs Kyi May Kaung: Burma debate continues
I like this debate, but I do not take side because I haven’t done my own critical study on this subject. This subject has been bugging me for about 6 years (because I am post-1988 generation).
I used to be a supporter of pro-democracy groups. But after 5-6 years of my life working them some organization in Thailand and listening to what they say, I lost my confident in them. They are not critical. Their writings are one-sided which doesn’t pay enough attention to the limitations of their arguments, strategies and effectiveness. I used to support economic sanction. But no more. Why? Because when I supported it, I didn’t have any clue. I just follow pro-democracy groups. I bet there are many who are following the leading groups like I did. One active proponant of economic sanction told me that economic sanction might not work, but this is one strategy to do the job. I.e. they have something to do atleast.
I think pro-saction groups are making arguments without any empirical evidences. I havn’t seen any critical studies about sanction produced by pro-sanction groups. There are many self-publishing articles. Of course, they are more subjective and based on sanction vs. no-sanction. Some of them are just opinion of the writers.
I am not taking side, but I won’t believe in economic sanction unless I see evidence.
The Burmese veto aftermath and dictators’ friends
[…] Further to my previous posts on the UN Security Council vote on Burma, Nobel Laureate Desmond Tutu has now been widely quoted in the South African media.┬ He does not mince his words: I am deeply disappointed by our vote. It is a betrayal of our own noble past. Many in the international community can hardly believe it. It is inexplicable…The tyrannical military regime is gloating, and we sided with them… […]
The Golden Boat update 7: mobile phones on the Mekong
[…] For the full series of New Mandala posts on Mekong River traders, go to Golden Boat update 1, update 2, update 3, update 4, update 5, update 6┬ and update 7. […]
Chang Noi on ‘unity’ and the dictatorship
Taxi Driver
I believe there is a rumour, circulating in the thai stock market at least, on the possibility of abdication (similar to Bhutan).
Before this, it has never crossed my mind before. But come to think of it, this is probably the best option available for the Network to ensure continuity of its rule.
The Golden Boat update 6: mobile lifestyles
[…] For the full series of New Mandala posts on Mekong River traders, go to Golden Boat update 1, update 2, update 3, update 4, update 5, update 6┬ and update 7. […]
The Golden Boat update 5: shopkeeping on the borderline
[…] For the full series of New Mandala posts on Mekong River traders, go to Golden Boat update 1, update 2, update 3, update 4, update 5, update 6┬ and update 7. […]
The business of sufficiency economy
Sumet simply is one of the most annoying proponents of royalist propaganda around. And with his actions, he hides behind the impossibility of critically taking him to task. Thailand can never be a democracy until such pockets of unaccountability are gone (but there are many other things that also need to go, such as military coups, megalomaniacs such as Thaksin, irresponsible newspapers such as The Nation, corrupt bureaucrats, narrow-minded activists, the political exclusion of the majority, etc.).
Chang Noi on ‘unity’ and the dictatorship
Has anyone thought about what may unfold if HMK suddenly passes away (sawanakot) tomorrow while this junta is still in power?
[I am sure various intel agencies domestic and foreign have performed this scenario analysis, but it is predictably absent from public discourse in Thailand. I guess its another example of how Les Majeste prevents public debate on a very important topic (one runs the risk of being accused of les majeste by discussing the death of the King…another irrational absurdity but sadly a fact of life in good ol’ Thailand)].
Chang Noi on ‘unity’ and the dictatorship
Of course, the military, in doing its coup, acted on its own. Thus, we can put the blame solely on it. No need to involve Prem, or the royalists, or perhaps even the monarchy. But what could you expect from Chang Noi after the UNDP’s glorification of the sufficiency economy?
The business of sufficiency economy
Thank you for this link. The paper by Peter Calkins was interesting to read. Another fruitful line of comparison is Meng Tzu or Mencius, the Chinese philosopher. I’ve noticed many similarities when reading Meng Tzu, for instance the stress on **particular farming practices to build strength against external economic shocks***:
“If mulberry trees are planted around homesteads of an acre, then people fifty years old can be clothed in silk. If, in the raising of fowl, pigs, dogs and swine, their breeding times are not missed, then people seventy years old can eat meat. If you do not upset the farming schedule in a farm of twenty acres, then a large clan will never be hungry. Pay careful attention to education, basing it on the Rightness of filial piety and respect for elders, and the gray-haired people will not be in the streets carrying heavy burdens on their backs. There has never been a case where the people of seventy were eating meat and the black-haired people were free from cold and hunger, where the king was not well regarded.”
http://www.hm.tyg.jp/~acmuller/contao/mencius.html
“…Mencius regarded the transformative power of a cultivated person as the ideal basis for government. In addition, he spelled out more explicitly the idea that order in society depends on proper attitudes within the family, which in turn depends on cultivating oneself. Also, he made explicit the point that gaining the heart/mind of the people is the basis for legitimate government, as it is the response of the people that reveals who has the authority from tian to take up the position of king. Only the ruler who practices ren [benevolent] government can draw the allegiance of the people, and such a ruler will become invincible, not in the sense of superior military strength, but in the sense of being without opposition. A ren ruler enjoys the allegiance of the people and is unlikely to confront any hostilities…”
http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/mencius/#4
One vote, one value
“Who said people with higher education have a higher [political] morality than rural voters?…
[…It’s the same false logic that contends rich politicians aren’t corrupt. While the poor may get trapped by populism, the middle class also gets stuck in flawed ideologies. To me, this emphasises the fairness of the ‘one man, one vote’ system,” Viroj said.”]
IMHO There is one very important way in which Thais with higher education have (in aggregate) higher morality and serve as a moral exemplar for the less-educated and poorer voters.
In aggregate they simply ***take better care of their children*** and this builds a better community. They are more likely to:
1. Send their to school: Mattayom, college, graduate school.
2. Less likely to allow their children to run around at night on motorcycles, drink, and take drugs.
3. More likely to expect their children to get married in a traditional fashion and raise their family in a responsible fashoin, rather than to get some young woman pregnant and then runaway.
4. Less likely to send their daughter to a Bangkok brothel, karaoke, massage parlour, etc.
5. More likely to experience some change in family fortunes, from generation to generation, like increased social status, or wealth, because their children move in a higher status university educated social group university, for instance..
This is based on observation. I live in a rural area when I’m not working in Bangkok. If I was a political scientist or a sociologist, maybe I’d do an empirical study, but I specialize in economics journalism and Burmese history (c. 1350-1600).
Although education tends to be associated with having some money, people in rural areas often take good care of their children too even if they pull them out of school early, for instance having them work in a small family business, but the poor pulling their children out of school or allowing their children to leave school at an early age is very common in Thailand and does contribute to the social problems enumerated above which anyone can observe with their own eyes if they live in a small rural town or village long enough.
One vote, one value
You got that right Anon!
A military dictatorship with an ethical and effective leader would definitely work and last till the leader dies.
A democracy too with an ethical leader and effective leader would definitely work and that leader would be re-elected for as long as he remains effective and ethical.
So Anon . . how do we proceed from your premise above?
One vote, one value
Vichai, if a system of government only works when it is led by ethical and effective leaders, then a dictatorship would also work, right?
The fact is, democracy is the system of government that best limits the power of villains.