Exactly Vichai once people have had enough of a politician they will vote for someone else, I believe that is called democracy. So yourself and many in Bangkok already reached that level. Others hadn’t though as the April 2006 demonstrated.
Everyone has different levels just like there are differences between you and many in Bangkok, but you always have to ask yourself is the alternative any better.
Given your dislike for Thaksin not adhering to the rule of law, I thought you would be interested in this quote from this article in IHT:
“People would like this government to take action, to solve problems and the law be damned,” said Ammar Siamwalla, a leading economist. “Don’t just stand there looking at law books.”
So who is to blame the people or the politicians? People get the politicians they deserve.
I have to side with Khun nganadeeleg about ‘democracy itself not being the problem but rather the inherent human flaws’.
In Thailand it is nice to have HMK provide a father figure and HMK had been doing a wonder job for decades that the Thai people can really look up to him. HMK has the moral authority to do that, no one else come close.
The Thais are easily susceptible to be swayed by favours .. rurals or urbans alike. And politicians exploit this by vote buying and handouts and the latest craze, populist policies. Populist policies is ok to me, but vote buying and handouts do degrade the poor.
As a retail store owner myself, I do not see the trend towards large transnational mega-stores being derailed, least of all in Thailand. These stores do provide significant savings to the lower economic classes who have the ability to reach them. Here in the US, I can bitch about Walmart to ny heart’s content, but the reality is that for the majority of people, Walmart signifies a lower cost of living. For the US government that implies a lowered chance of social unrest due to economic hardship and helps maintain the status quo. And if nothing else, in Thailand all parties, coup, anti-coup, and in-between, all wish to maintain the status quo above all else. In Thailand, the only time we are likely to see significant opposition to these “foreign” stores is if it is needed in the future to deflect attention away from the already non-Thai dominance of the economy and the already substantial diversion of profits, both legit and gray market, offshore. I just don’t see that happening in the near future.
Also, as a small shop owner myself, I admit that on many items I can not compete with the large mega stores. I try to avoid competeing on products, but occasionally the big stores step on my toes and begin to sell a product for just above my cost. This does not mean that I was “charging exorbitant prices” but only that my costs were exorbitantly more expensive than the mega-stores costs for selling the same item.
So there are both positive and negative aspects to the trend of the mega store. They do provide economic benefit to those most in need although they provoke angst amongst those who are often least affected by the economics and who prefer the small town “feel” of their local environment. (Nearby me in the US there is actually a local Walmart that is being prevented form opening, it is built and even partailly stocked, as a result fo a lawsuit; but the town is primarily occupied only in the summer time by vacation home residents who spend most of the year in more distant urban areas.) The downside is that these stores do hasten the inevitable exodus of capital out of the area. The negative downsides tend to be more social than economic as the traditional business districts are inevitably eviscerated and the sense of local community is weakened.
Ah, the continued corporate socialization of America and the rest of the world. I know I can sleep better knowing that all my neighbors are wiping their arse’s too with Kirkland band (Costco) toilet paper.
Tesco is the best, followed by Careefour, and trailing way behind is Big C. Big C allows pickles to be sold in the supermarket, stinking the whole place up! Really disgusting to shop there. And the top floor is always disorganized and messy.
Mom & pops provide no realistic competition – in terms of price, stock, and convenience, the megamarts (both local and foreign owned) are by far superior.
Fall there are degrees of ethical transgressions and every person has their puke limits and that lincludes you too Fall.
Many in Bangkok reached their puke limits with the many Thaksin shenanigans. For me personally, my puke limit was reached when Thaksin went on with his extrajudicial rampage in that senseless anti-yaa baa drive. May others in Bangkok it seems puked at that Temasek-Shin deal.
Patiwat, Fall and Bangkok Pundit you three don’t seem to have any puke limits as far as Thaksin and that makes me wonder why.
Frustrated said: ‘The most important thing is that every Thai must be treated as equal at least in the eyes of rules or laws or constitution.’
In Thailand, some people are always more equal than others
(including under Thaksins ‘democracy’).
As for the masses voting out Thaksin, who would they vote in instead? – There is an inherent weakness in the democratic system in that it has a tendency to produce demagogues (as recognised by Plato 2300 years ago)
Democracy is not actually the problem, but rather the problem is human weak-mindedness in seeking to satisfy their desires at the expense of doing what is morally/naturally right.
Unfortunately it is rare for an individual to rise above those tendencies, even if it is a Buddhist ideal.
Therefore democracy is flawed, no matter how strong the constitution and checks and balances.
Perhaps HMK recognises this, and that is why he is promoting the sufficiency model.
There is not much chance for immediate improvement under the ‘new’ or ‘old’ regimes that eveyone is talking about, but if the sufficiency model can become entrenched in the education system from an early age, then I can see some hope for improvement in future generations.
Do not think I am singling out the rural poor for criticism as
my comments above apply equally to the rural & urban poor, middle class, rich, military and elite.
(they also apply to so called model western democracies, and not just to Thailand)
Thaksin will be voted out if the majority of Thai people see him useless or as a threat to their country, the country of 65 millions, not the country of few families. It is the duty of all Thai who think that they know all the bad about Thaksin to speak out, to convince the public not to vote for him or vote against him. If they can convince people they don’t have to worry that Thaksin will stay in Thai politics for ever. But, if the majority of people still see the good of Thaksin or if Thaksin can convince people other wise then he has every right get their votes and to be the leader of this country. Democracy needs participation of everybody in this country including those groups that Vichai mentioned (royalty, military, business oligarchs, hopeful rurals, assertive middle class, etc.) but only with the same weigth as the rest of Thai population, if not that is not democracy. The most important thing is that every Thai must be treated as equal at least in the eyes of rules or laws or constitution.
Vichai – So the rural people get to vote IN, while middle-class bangkok get to decide who seem unethical OUT?
No matter who get appointed(past, present, or future), someone will loose their benefit from the new government. This kind of play would only lead to middle-class being manipulate as a tool to whoever loose interest from the new leader elected.
If “ethic” can be a sound reason for losing legitimatcy to rule, we could have a coup every other day(eg. Censorship on news, Lottery, Surayud forest land, Pridiyathorn 30%, etc. etc.). It just that different people have different set of acceptable political ethic. So, back at you, stop your fixation on “unethical” leader. It a joke enough already.
As quoted from the original post, this sentence doesnot really get enough important as it deserve: “Rarely is attention given to the role of the educated middle class in obstructing democratic development by trashing the democratic system when it delivers a result they don’t like.”
The value of any retail business is going to be affected by the intrinsic value of the location and quite shrewdly they’ve built a night bazaar in the middle of Chiang Rai’s downtown which upped the value of all the real estate there. Edison, the old department store downtown, that you might expect to be displaced by superstores, just opened a TOPS franchise inside the store itself!
The nature of us observing whether or not people prefer cheaper prices or local business is not relevant in the context of how the developing developed world communicates with the junta in my opinion, for the same corporate dominance situations are occurring here too.
That Tesco etc are from the West lends to our en mass identification with them and therefore, to what extent does the potential rejection by the junta and cronies for the corporate masses translate to our own cultural and idealogical rejection?
Surely perceiving what is occurring in Thailand as regressive will only isolate Thai communication with the cosmocrat further and increase ideals which have seldom resulted in a balanced, rational exchange.
Than Shwe is no more than a crook. He became so rich by stealing and robbing the state fund and from receiving briberies look like gifts. The leaders should never receive unacceptable gifts. How does Than Shwe become a wealthy person? How much does he make from his salary? Then we all can understand that Than Shwe is no good man but thief and robber. His wealth his telling us that he is going to hell.
I did not know that there was opposition to such outlets. In India there is a discussion on to allow such outlets and I was about to post a blog entry highlighting (in my observation) the sucessful co-existance of small roadside shops and biggers superstores in Thailand.
Fall – the rural poor always had voting power. It would be stupid to have a constitutional democracy where the majority of adult population would be denied the vote. That is most elementary Fall.
But iFall it would be wrong to insist that democracy begins and ends from majority votie That is ridiculous. A democracy is NOT a beauty contest Fall! Even in beauty contests, winners who cheat (giving favors to the judges) or failed to bring dignity to the beauty crown have often lost their crowns.
So stop your fixation on the ‘majority rural voters’ being disenfranchised Fall. Thaksin simply lost his legitimacy (or beauty crown) to rule, that is all because of his many unethical and criminal conduct.
The Happy New Year Bang was only a sign that the military presided over by the king and Prem are just as divided into factions, corrupt and power hungry as they were in the Prem era and earlier.
Carrefour (at least Phra Ram Si) has made a much better effort to create an inviting eating and shopping area beneath the big store itself. It remains open late and is even a nice place to hang out and read a book. Lotus? Yuck. Except the big store itself is bigger.
Take the Maesai Lotus as an example of hypermart impact on a local economy. The people who live in the villages love the cheap prices. The owners of shop fronts who used to charge exorbitant prices for table fans and home appliances to poor people without a car to drive to Big C in Chiang Rai? They don’t like it, of course, and they know how to organise and make a big stink. But the poorer people who benefit, are they going to politically organise?
Lotus effectively redistributes to poorer people in small towns like Maesai, except Lotus profits leave Maesai ultimately, unlike the shop front owners who do nice things like sponsor free aerobics at the Chinese temple across from the Shell Station.
Jo Jo’s restaurant in the middle of all those shop fronts on the main street sold for, I heard, 20 million baht with knowledge that they Lotus was opening. The shop fronts are obviously going to shift to other products. Gold stores? If Lotus starts opening 7-11 like stores in the mu baans though, that will step on poorer peoples’ toes.
BTW here is a permalink to the BKK Post editorial referred to in that previous blog entry:
For a decade Thailand’s democracy was blooming after the 1997 constitution until this megalomaniac Thaksin burst into the political scene. Same thing happened in the Philippines where its democracy was derailed with the coming of Ferdinand Marcos.
Because both Marcos and Thaksin were playing really dirty and corrupt politics dismembering the foundations of their countries constitutional democracies to advance their personal interests. Worse both would NOT give up power ethically and both would stifle criticisms of any sort and during their rule democracy was only in name but had lost all substance and credibility.
The only reason Thaksin did NOT succeed to do a Marcos on Thailand was because of Thailand’s revered King who was in the way of the overly abusive constitutional disrespecting Thaksin. The military had always been royalist and Thaksin’s days were numbered from the first royal whisper.
It had never been easy to apply democracy in the Asian countries.
But whatever it is, Thaksin’s version of democracy is NOT what Thailand needs or will accept.
Whatever argument people will pose in the forums, the only democracy that would have any hope of success in Thailand would have to consider the participation of all the many vested interests in play in the Kingdom (royalty, military, business oligarchs, hopeful rurals, assertive middle class, etc.). It had always been a ‘give-and-take’ politics gentlemen, but somehow Thaksin and his TRT party focused on the ‘taking’ that resulted in their disgrace.
Thaksin is still a danger to Thailand only because this megalomaniac is still intent on returning to power, by whatever means.
Happy New Year bang was a reminder of Thaksin’s determination to return to power gentlemen.
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“The educated middle class vs democracy”
BP, was that quote from Ammar taken from 2003 (Thaksin vs. drug-dealers) or from 2006 (Sonthi vs. Thaksin)?
“The educated middle class vs democracy”
Exactly Vichai once people have had enough of a politician they will vote for someone else, I believe that is called democracy. So yourself and many in Bangkok already reached that level. Others hadn’t though as the April 2006 demonstrated.
Everyone has different levels just like there are differences between you and many in Bangkok, but you always have to ask yourself is the alternative any better.
Given your dislike for Thaksin not adhering to the rule of law, I thought you would be interested in this quote from this article in IHT:
“People would like this government to take action, to solve problems and the law be damned,” said Ammar Siamwalla, a leading economist. “Don’t just stand there looking at law books.”
So who is to blame the people or the politicians? People get the politicians they deserve.
Tightening the grip
Sawadee Pee Mai everyone.
I have to side with Khun nganadeeleg about ‘democracy itself not being the problem but rather the inherent human flaws’.
In Thailand it is nice to have HMK provide a father figure and HMK had been doing a wonder job for decades that the Thai people can really look up to him. HMK has the moral authority to do that, no one else come close.
The Thais are easily susceptible to be swayed by favours .. rurals or urbans alike. And politicians exploit this by vote buying and handouts and the latest craze, populist policies. Populist policies is ok to me, but vote buying and handouts do degrade the poor.
Every little helps…keep business on its toes
As a retail store owner myself, I do not see the trend towards large transnational mega-stores being derailed, least of all in Thailand. These stores do provide significant savings to the lower economic classes who have the ability to reach them. Here in the US, I can bitch about Walmart to ny heart’s content, but the reality is that for the majority of people, Walmart signifies a lower cost of living. For the US government that implies a lowered chance of social unrest due to economic hardship and helps maintain the status quo. And if nothing else, in Thailand all parties, coup, anti-coup, and in-between, all wish to maintain the status quo above all else. In Thailand, the only time we are likely to see significant opposition to these “foreign” stores is if it is needed in the future to deflect attention away from the already non-Thai dominance of the economy and the already substantial diversion of profits, both legit and gray market, offshore. I just don’t see that happening in the near future.
Also, as a small shop owner myself, I admit that on many items I can not compete with the large mega stores. I try to avoid competeing on products, but occasionally the big stores step on my toes and begin to sell a product for just above my cost. This does not mean that I was “charging exorbitant prices” but only that my costs were exorbitantly more expensive than the mega-stores costs for selling the same item.
So there are both positive and negative aspects to the trend of the mega store. They do provide economic benefit to those most in need although they provoke angst amongst those who are often least affected by the economics and who prefer the small town “feel” of their local environment. (Nearby me in the US there is actually a local Walmart that is being prevented form opening, it is built and even partailly stocked, as a result fo a lawsuit; but the town is primarily occupied only in the summer time by vacation home residents who spend most of the year in more distant urban areas.) The downside is that these stores do hasten the inevitable exodus of capital out of the area. The negative downsides tend to be more social than economic as the traditional business districts are inevitably eviscerated and the sense of local community is weakened.
Ah, the continued corporate socialization of America and the rest of the world. I know I can sleep better knowing that all my neighbors are wiping their arse’s too with Kirkland band (Costco) toilet paper.
Every little helps…keep business on its toes
Tesco is the best, followed by Careefour, and trailing way behind is Big C. Big C allows pickles to be sold in the supermarket, stinking the whole place up! Really disgusting to shop there. And the top floor is always disorganized and messy.
Mom & pops provide no realistic competition – in terms of price, stock, and convenience, the megamarts (both local and foreign owned) are by far superior.
“The educated middle class vs democracy”
Fall there are degrees of ethical transgressions and every person has their puke limits and that lincludes you too Fall.
Many in Bangkok reached their puke limits with the many Thaksin shenanigans. For me personally, my puke limit was reached when Thaksin went on with his extrajudicial rampage in that senseless anti-yaa baa drive. May others in Bangkok it seems puked at that Temasek-Shin deal.
Patiwat, Fall and Bangkok Pundit you three don’t seem to have any puke limits as far as Thaksin and that makes me wonder why.
Tightening the grip
Frustrated said: ‘The most important thing is that every Thai must be treated as equal at least in the eyes of rules or laws or constitution.’
In Thailand, some people are always more equal than others
(including under Thaksins ‘democracy’).
As for the masses voting out Thaksin, who would they vote in instead? – There is an inherent weakness in the democratic system in that it has a tendency to produce demagogues (as recognised by Plato 2300 years ago)
Democracy is not actually the problem, but rather the problem is human weak-mindedness in seeking to satisfy their desires at the expense of doing what is morally/naturally right.
Unfortunately it is rare for an individual to rise above those tendencies, even if it is a Buddhist ideal.
Therefore democracy is flawed, no matter how strong the constitution and checks and balances.
Perhaps HMK recognises this, and that is why he is promoting the sufficiency model.
There is not much chance for immediate improvement under the ‘new’ or ‘old’ regimes that eveyone is talking about, but if the sufficiency model can become entrenched in the education system from an early age, then I can see some hope for improvement in future generations.
Do not think I am singling out the rural poor for criticism as
my comments above apply equally to the rural & urban poor, middle class, rich, military and elite.
(they also apply to so called model western democracies, and not just to Thailand)
Tightening the grip
Thaksin will be voted out if the majority of Thai people see him useless or as a threat to their country, the country of 65 millions, not the country of few families. It is the duty of all Thai who think that they know all the bad about Thaksin to speak out, to convince the public not to vote for him or vote against him. If they can convince people they don’t have to worry that Thaksin will stay in Thai politics for ever. But, if the majority of people still see the good of Thaksin or if Thaksin can convince people other wise then he has every right get their votes and to be the leader of this country. Democracy needs participation of everybody in this country including those groups that Vichai mentioned (royalty, military, business oligarchs, hopeful rurals, assertive middle class, etc.) but only with the same weigth as the rest of Thai population, if not that is not democracy. The most important thing is that every Thai must be treated as equal at least in the eyes of rules or laws or constitution.
“The educated middle class vs democracy”
Vichai – So the rural people get to vote IN, while middle-class bangkok get to decide who seem unethical OUT?
No matter who get appointed(past, present, or future), someone will loose their benefit from the new government. This kind of play would only lead to middle-class being manipulate as a tool to whoever loose interest from the new leader elected.
If “ethic” can be a sound reason for losing legitimatcy to rule, we could have a coup every other day(eg. Censorship on news, Lottery, Surayud forest land, Pridiyathorn 30%, etc. etc.). It just that different people have different set of acceptable political ethic. So, back at you, stop your fixation on “unethical” leader. It a joke enough already.
As quoted from the original post, this sentence doesnot really get enough important as it deserve: “Rarely is attention given to the role of the educated middle class in obstructing democratic development by trashing the democratic system when it delivers a result they don’t like.”
Every little helps…keep business on its toes
The value of any retail business is going to be affected by the intrinsic value of the location and quite shrewdly they’ve built a night bazaar in the middle of Chiang Rai’s downtown which upped the value of all the real estate there. Edison, the old department store downtown, that you might expect to be displaced by superstores, just opened a TOPS franchise inside the store itself!
Every little helps…keep business on its toes
The nature of us observing whether or not people prefer cheaper prices or local business is not relevant in the context of how the developing developed world communicates with the junta in my opinion, for the same corporate dominance situations are occurring here too.
That Tesco etc are from the West lends to our en mass identification with them and therefore, to what extent does the potential rejection by the junta and cronies for the corporate masses translate to our own cultural and idealogical rejection?
Surely perceiving what is occurring in Thailand as regressive will only isolate Thai communication with the cosmocrat further and increase ideals which have seldom resulted in a balanced, rational exchange.
Up in the Hills
Than Shwe is following his stepfather Ne Win and Saddam Hussein’s path to death by ignoring the citicens of Burma for his own sake.
Up in the Hills
Than Shwe is no more than a crook. He became so rich by stealing and robbing the state fund and from receiving briberies look like gifts. The leaders should never receive unacceptable gifts. How does Than Shwe become a wealthy person? How much does he make from his salary? Then we all can understand that Than Shwe is no good man but thief and robber. His wealth his telling us that he is going to hell.
Tightening the grip
The junta is now taking a zero-tolerance policy to protestors.
26 Bo Bae Market vendors were arrested for participating in an “illegal gathering attended by more than 10 people.” See here.
Another new Burma blog: fifty viss
Yeap, this blog is quite interesting: although he is young, the author seems wise.
Every little helps…keep business on its toes
I did not know that there was opposition to such outlets. In India there is a discussion on to allow such outlets and I was about to post a blog entry highlighting (in my observation) the sucessful co-existance of small roadside shops and biggers superstores in Thailand.
“The educated middle class vs democracy”
Fall – the rural poor always had voting power. It would be stupid to have a constitutional democracy where the majority of adult population would be denied the vote. That is most elementary Fall.
But iFall it would be wrong to insist that democracy begins and ends from majority votie That is ridiculous. A democracy is NOT a beauty contest Fall! Even in beauty contests, winners who cheat (giving favors to the judges) or failed to bring dignity to the beauty crown have often lost their crowns.
So stop your fixation on the ‘majority rural voters’ being disenfranchised Fall. Thaksin simply lost his legitimacy (or beauty crown) to rule, that is all because of his many unethical and criminal conduct.
Tightening the grip
The Happy New Year Bang was only a sign that the military presided over by the king and Prem are just as divided into factions, corrupt and power hungry as they were in the Prem era and earlier.
Every little helps…keep business on its toes
Carrefour (at least Phra Ram Si) has made a much better effort to create an inviting eating and shopping area beneath the big store itself. It remains open late and is even a nice place to hang out and read a book. Lotus? Yuck. Except the big store itself is bigger.
Take the Maesai Lotus as an example of hypermart impact on a local economy. The people who live in the villages love the cheap prices. The owners of shop fronts who used to charge exorbitant prices for table fans and home appliances to poor people without a car to drive to Big C in Chiang Rai? They don’t like it, of course, and they know how to organise and make a big stink. But the poorer people who benefit, are they going to politically organise?
Lotus effectively redistributes to poorer people in small towns like Maesai, except Lotus profits leave Maesai ultimately, unlike the shop front owners who do nice things like sponsor free aerobics at the Chinese temple across from the Shell Station.
Jo Jo’s restaurant in the middle of all those shop fronts on the main street sold for, I heard, 20 million baht with knowledge that they Lotus was opening. The shop fronts are obviously going to shift to other products. Gold stores? If Lotus starts opening 7-11 like stores in the mu baans though, that will step on poorer peoples’ toes.
BTW here is a permalink to the BKK Post editorial referred to in that previous blog entry:
http://www.readbangkokpost.com/business/retail_and_consumer_credit/stop_retail_innovation.php
Tightening the grip
For a decade Thailand’s democracy was blooming after the 1997 constitution until this megalomaniac Thaksin burst into the political scene. Same thing happened in the Philippines where its democracy was derailed with the coming of Ferdinand Marcos.
Because both Marcos and Thaksin were playing really dirty and corrupt politics dismembering the foundations of their countries constitutional democracies to advance their personal interests. Worse both would NOT give up power ethically and both would stifle criticisms of any sort and during their rule democracy was only in name but had lost all substance and credibility.
The only reason Thaksin did NOT succeed to do a Marcos on Thailand was because of Thailand’s revered King who was in the way of the overly abusive constitutional disrespecting Thaksin. The military had always been royalist and Thaksin’s days were numbered from the first royal whisper.
It had never been easy to apply democracy in the Asian countries.
But whatever it is, Thaksin’s version of democracy is NOT what Thailand needs or will accept.
Whatever argument people will pose in the forums, the only democracy that would have any hope of success in Thailand would have to consider the participation of all the many vested interests in play in the Kingdom (royalty, military, business oligarchs, hopeful rurals, assertive middle class, etc.). It had always been a ‘give-and-take’ politics gentlemen, but somehow Thaksin and his TRT party focused on the ‘taking’ that resulted in their disgrace.
Thaksin is still a danger to Thailand only because this megalomaniac is still intent on returning to power, by whatever means.
Happy New Year bang was a reminder of Thaksin’s determination to return to power gentlemen.