I agree generally with Nganadeeleg that Downer was picking winners. The coup in Thailand couldn’t be reversed, but the coup in Fiji can be. The pressure that Australia and other like-minded countries can exert on Fiji is much greater than it could exert on Thailand. From Australia/NZ/EU/US, Fiji receives some $200 million of aid and there is a joint approach against the coup. If the Australian/NZ government starts issuing travel advisories warning their citizens not to travel to Fiji then this would have serious affect on the tourism industry.
I also think there is some personal animosity because of the behind-the-scenes dealing and with the Australian military having ships close to Fiji and talk from the Fiji military of a foreign invasion/takeover – ie the Australians “invading” Fiji.
I think Downer had some harsh words for the coup in Thailand, but not for the Generals.
From Wikipedia: Foreign Minister of Australia Alexander Downer stated, “We want to see a return to democratic rule. It’s of grave concern for us that the government has been overthrown in this way. There was an expectation in Thailand that there would be an election towards the end of this year and it is of concern to us that the military appear to have simply seized power.”
Australia is gravely concerned at the “unacceptable” overthrow of the Thai government in a military coup, Foreign Minister Alexander Downer said .
In the interview with Yaxley:
Obviously, to see democracy destroyed in that way is a matter of grave concern to us. But, what we’ll do as a consequence of it it’s far too early to say.
There is a general lack of support for this coup with the President, Great Council of Chiefs, NGOs, Police and Judiciary all coming out in favor of the Constitution. I believe this coup will fail from lack of support and a new government installed that will probably be the majority of the previous government with a few new faces.
[…] New Mandala writes about a car rally taking place in north-east India and Myanmar. “The rally traverses a route that is maybe just starting to re-emerge as a viable conduit for everyday trade and transportation.”. A former supporter of democracy in Myamar, India is now open to seeking closer with the military government. Preetam Rai […]
[…] For some news related to my posts earlier in the year about Rohingya claiming asylum in Australia who were sent to Nauru, reports have come through that a boat has arrived in southern Thailand’s Phang Nga province carrying 114 Rohingya “looking for work”.┬ […]
[…] Just for some news related to my posts earlier in the year about Rohingya claiming asylum in Australia, reports have come through that a boat has arrived in southern Thailand’s Phang Nga province carrying 114 Rohingya “looking for work”.┬ […]
Ngana: Is throwing out the constitution and suspending rule of law the way to combat “flagrant abuses of human rights, manipulation of key democratic institutions, personal greed, corruption, tax avoidance and divisive manipulation of the rural poor” ?Is that “one step backwards to go to steps ahead” or is it two steps backward in hopes of monving one step back ahead?
To Frustrated – I have no choice. It was either the junta or Thaksin Shinawatra. The junta offerred me hope while Thaksin only threatened my country, my King, and my democracy.
Sure the Junta would have their faults but so far those faults have been acceptable and have not been truly threatening. I believe the Junta will return Thailand to elected rule after the Thai constitution is reformed in about 12 months time.
When I first visited New Mandala site, I accused it of being a propaganda tool for Thaksin Shinawatra specifically against the monarchy and those against Thaksin.
Here’s a few differences:
– Bainimarama is considered unstable
– Thaksin was more on the nose than Qarase
– Thai people generally accepted, even welcomed the coup
(it was seen a circuit breaker to a long standing political stalemate)
– Fiji’s coup appears to be military backed with little other support from the establishment, which contrasts with the Thai situation and the apparent royal acceptance of the coup
– Australia is a bigger player in the Pacific than it is in Asia, and is a major aid contributor in the region
– The Fiji police chief is Australian (ex AFP)
– There is an Asian/Thai way of doing things and western influence is considered interference
I’m not 79 and have not had a lifetime of having to be a stabilising influence on wayward, greedy, corrupt, power hungry politicians (and would be politicians), but I agree with the King…. ‘politics is boring’.
I have reviewed this site since it’s inception in June 2006 (pre coup) and am unable to find any real criticisms of Thaksin by Andrew or Nicholas.
In fact, Andrew in his very first post on 16th June admitted he is a supporter of Thaksin merely because he won at the ballot box.
He accepted that Thaksin presided over ‘flagrant abuses of human rights both in the South and in the notorious war on drugs’ and had some concerns about ‘Thaksin’s apparent manipulation of key democratic institutions’
I must be an elitist, because regardless of whether Thaksin was able to win elections, I am unable to just accept flagrant abuses of human rights, manipulation of key democratic institutions, personal greed, corruption, tax avoidance and divisive manipulation of the rural poor.
The old saying about fooling some of the people all of the time, and all of the people some of the time, needs to be amended in this case to:
You can fool most of the people, all of the time.
Even Nicholas seems to know about Thaksins supporters being ‘orgainised’ to protest. The following is a quote from his post on 16th August after attending a pro Thaksin rally: http://rspas.anu.edu.au/rmap/newmandala/?p=171
“Even his critics admit that Thaksin survives because of support from his rural base. At this rally in Chiang Rai, “the people”, or at least those who were “organised” to attend, showed their “encouragement” for their leader and his policies. With their Royal yellow shirts and with their tri-colour flags, this Northern Thai Prime Minister has retained a remarkable level of adoration among “his people”. Only time will tell if this is enough to keep his self-appointed role as defender of the nation and its many poor.”
Maybe Thaksin was accumulating his wealth and dodging tax just so he could become more philanthropic.
Andrew said:
“Most commentators who have condemned the coup fully recognise the inadequacies and abuses of the Thaksin government, including its manipulation of some democratic institutions. It was an imperfect democracy, far from ideal. But its imperfections were widely discussed and, on balance, the electorate continued to support the incumbent government.
There is nothing fundamentalist or idealist about respecting and accepting the view of the electorate. ”
Makes you wonder how well educated the electorate is, or do they just like taking money to vote (and to protest) ?
Something tells me that the 2007/2008/? constitution will see a higher minimum age for MPs and Cabinet Ministers, say, 40. After all, if the King has given such explicit advise, who would dare not follow it?
Read my post – it didn\’t mention Thaksin at all. It was about the oath that all graduates of Thammasast take upon graduation, but that the Rector himself didn\’t follow. If you agree, sign the petition: http://www.petitiononline.com/domedang/petition.html
Every word out of you is Thaksin – Thaksin – Thaksin, even if the topic isn\’t about Thaksin at all. Get over it already!
We know exactly how you feel about Thaksin and the War on Drugs. You don\’t have to repeat it with every single post.
[Note: this comment has been edited slightly to moderate some of the language.]
“There is a distinct lack of criticism from the pro democracy, anti coup commentators which seems to suggest they are pro Thaksin.”
I don’t think we need to preface every comment regarding the current government (which this blog understandably now focuses on, since Thaksin is no longer in power) with one criticism at Thaksin’s old regime. I think the criticisms should be judge at their own merit – most of the time there’s nothing really relevant about Thaksin regime that need to be brought up for example in regards to the current government’s crack down on free speech..
I don’t think that just because the coup delivered us from the (to some) evil that is Thaksin, they should not be immune to constructive criticism. In original post above makes the point that curbing the power of elected officials (who are representative of the electorate) and transferring it an unelected ‘national selection body’ doesn’t do a great deal to increase the accountability of the government.
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No coup for you
Nick
I agree generally with Nganadeeleg that Downer was picking winners. The coup in Thailand couldn’t be reversed, but the coup in Fiji can be. The pressure that Australia and other like-minded countries can exert on Fiji is much greater than it could exert on Thailand. From Australia/NZ/EU/US, Fiji receives some $200 million of aid and there is a joint approach against the coup. If the Australian/NZ government starts issuing travel advisories warning their citizens not to travel to Fiji then this would have serious affect on the tourism industry.
I also think there is some personal animosity because of the behind-the-scenes dealing and with the Australian military having ships close to Fiji and talk from the Fiji military of a foreign invasion/takeover – ie the Australians “invading” Fiji.
I think Downer had some harsh words for the coup in Thailand, but not for the Generals.
From Wikipedia: Foreign Minister of Australia Alexander Downer stated, “We want to see a return to democratic rule. It’s of grave concern for us that the government has been overthrown in this way. There was an expectation in Thailand that there would be an election towards the end of this year and it is of concern to us that the military appear to have simply seized power.”
From Ninemsn:
Australia is gravely concerned at the “unacceptable” overthrow of the Thai government in a military coup, Foreign Minister Alexander Downer said .
In the interview with Yaxley:
Obviously, to see democracy destroyed in that way is a matter of grave concern to us. But, what we’ll do as a consequence of it it’s far too early to say.
No coup for you
There is a general lack of support for this coup with the President, Great Council of Chiefs, NGOs, Police and Judiciary all coming out in favor of the Constitution. I believe this coup will fail from lack of support and a new government installed that will probably be the majority of the previous government with a few new faces.
Indo-Burma car rally
[…] New Mandala writes about a car rally taking place in north-east India and Myanmar. “The rally traverses a route that is maybe just starting to re-emerge as a viable conduit for everyday trade and transportation.”. A former supporter of democracy in Myamar, India is now open to seeking closer with the military government. Preetam Rai […]
Rohingyas on Nauru, part II
[…] For some news related to my posts earlier in the year about Rohingya claiming asylum in Australia who were sent to Nauru, reports have come through that a boat has arrived in southern Thailand’s Phang Nga province carrying 114 Rohingya “looking for work”.┬ […]
Rohingya on Nauru…
[…] Just for some news related to my posts earlier in the year about Rohingya claiming asylum in Australia, reports have come through that a boat has arrived in southern Thailand’s Phang Nga province carrying 114 Rohingya “looking for work”.┬ […]
Prawase Wasi’s sufficiency democracy
Ngana: Is throwing out the constitution and suspending rule of law the way to combat “flagrant abuses of human rights, manipulation of key democratic institutions, personal greed, corruption, tax avoidance and divisive manipulation of the rural poor” ?Is that “one step backwards to go to steps ahead” or is it two steps backward in hopes of monving one step back ahead?
Thems fighting words
A New Yorker piece on Myanmar:
http://www.newyorker.com/critics/books/articles/061211crbo_books
I admit, I am a “free-spirited bookish-type” person
To Frustrated – I have no choice. It was either the junta or Thaksin Shinawatra. The junta offerred me hope while Thaksin only threatened my country, my King, and my democracy.
Sure the Junta would have their faults but so far those faults have been acceptable and have not been truly threatening. I believe the Junta will return Thailand to elected rule after the Thai constitution is reformed in about 12 months time.
I am patient not insane.
Prawase Wasi’s sufficiency democracy
When I first visited New Mandala site, I accused it of being a propaganda tool for Thaksin Shinawatra specifically against the monarchy and those against Thaksin.
I have not changed that opinion one bit.
“Politics is boring”
Boring politics is preferable to divisive politics, and we all know who espoused the latter.
No coup for you
Basically, Downer is picking winners.
Here’s a few differences:
– Bainimarama is considered unstable
– Thaksin was more on the nose than Qarase
– Thai people generally accepted, even welcomed the coup
(it was seen a circuit breaker to a long standing political stalemate)
– Fiji’s coup appears to be military backed with little other support from the establishment, which contrasts with the Thai situation and the apparent royal acceptance of the coup
– Australia is a bigger player in the Pacific than it is in Asia, and is a major aid contributor in the region
– The Fiji police chief is Australian (ex AFP)
– There is an Asian/Thai way of doing things and western influence is considered interference
“Politics is boring”
I’m not 79 and have not had a lifetime of having to be a stabilising influence on wayward, greedy, corrupt, power hungry politicians (and would be politicians), but I agree with the King…. ‘politics is boring’.
Prawase Wasi’s sufficiency democracy
I have reviewed this site since it’s inception in June 2006 (pre coup) and am unable to find any real criticisms of Thaksin by Andrew or Nicholas.
In fact, Andrew in his very first post on 16th June admitted he is a supporter of Thaksin merely because he won at the ballot box.
He accepted that Thaksin presided over ‘flagrant abuses of human rights both in the South and in the notorious war on drugs’ and had some concerns about ‘Thaksin’s apparent manipulation of key democratic institutions’
It is well worth reading his original post to get an insight into where he is coming from:
http://rspas.anu.edu.au/rmap/newmandala/2006/06/16/some-thoughts-on-the-political-crisis-in-thailand/
I must be an elitist, because regardless of whether Thaksin was able to win elections, I am unable to just accept flagrant abuses of human rights, manipulation of key democratic institutions, personal greed, corruption, tax avoidance and divisive manipulation of the rural poor.
The old saying about fooling some of the people all of the time, and all of the people some of the time, needs to be amended in this case to:
You can fool most of the people, all of the time.
I admit, I am a “free-spirited bookish-type” person
Even Nicholas seems to know about Thaksins supporters being ‘orgainised’ to protest. The following is a quote from his post on 16th August after attending a pro Thaksin rally:
http://rspas.anu.edu.au/rmap/newmandala/?p=171
“Even his critics admit that Thaksin survives because of support from his rural base. At this rally in Chiang Rai, “the people”, or at least those who were “organised” to attend, showed their “encouragement” for their leader and his policies. With their Royal yellow shirts and with their tri-colour flags, this Northern Thai Prime Minister has retained a remarkable level of adoration among “his people”. Only time will tell if this is enough to keep his self-appointed role as defender of the nation and its many poor.”
Maybe Thaksin was accumulating his wealth and dodging tax just so he could become more philanthropic.
I admit, I am a “free-spirited bookish-type” person
Andrew said:
“Most commentators who have condemned the coup fully recognise the inadequacies and abuses of the Thaksin government, including its manipulation of some democratic institutions. It was an imperfect democracy, far from ideal. But its imperfections were widely discussed and, on balance, the electorate continued to support the incumbent government.
There is nothing fundamentalist or idealist about respecting and accepting the view of the electorate. ”
Makes you wonder how well educated the electorate is, or do they just like taking money to vote (and to protest) ?
I admit, I am a “free-spirited bookish-type” person
Vichai N,
How can you support people like Saprang and the guys he serves? Are you insane?
“Politics is boring”
Something tells me that the 2007/2008/? constitution will see a higher minimum age for MPs and Cabinet Ministers, say, 40. After all, if the King has given such explicit advise, who would dare not follow it?
“…in accordance with the Asian way”
That description of the ideal Burmese government doesn’t sound so different from the way the Thai government is being run.
Democracy-lite
Vichai, what is wrong with you?
Read my post – it didn\’t mention Thaksin at all. It was about the oath that all graduates of Thammasast take upon graduation, but that the Rector himself didn\’t follow. If you agree, sign the petition: http://www.petitiononline.com/domedang/petition.html
Every word out of you is Thaksin – Thaksin – Thaksin, even if the topic isn\’t about Thaksin at all. Get over it already!
We know exactly how you feel about Thaksin and the War on Drugs. You don\’t have to repeat it with every single post.
[Note: this comment has been edited slightly to moderate some of the language.]
Prawase Wasi’s sufficiency democracy
“There is a distinct lack of criticism from the pro democracy, anti coup commentators which seems to suggest they are pro Thaksin.”
I don’t think we need to preface every comment regarding the current government (which this blog understandably now focuses on, since Thaksin is no longer in power) with one criticism at Thaksin’s old regime. I think the criticisms should be judge at their own merit – most of the time there’s nothing really relevant about Thaksin regime that need to be brought up for example in regards to the current government’s crack down on free speech..
I don’t think that just because the coup delivered us from the (to some) evil that is Thaksin, they should not be immune to constructive criticism. In original post above makes the point that curbing the power of elected officials (who are representative of the electorate) and transferring it an unelected ‘national selection body’ doesn’t do a great deal to increase the accountability of the government.