Missing the point as usual. As if migration is the be all and end all. Neither is inviting either the Americans or the Chinese as CEO over Burma Inc., like many a spineless ‘thinker’ would expect.
It’s funny that some Thais can go on and on about how rich the Shinawatras are while ignoring the “elephant in the room”, i.e. the ACTUAL richest family in Thailand.
So why don’t all these Burmese dissidents living a cosy life in places like Australia just move to China? (I heard there are lots of Chinese students/immigrants also in Australia!)
Your response doesn’t make sense. I hardly think that the pro-democracy group believes that it is winning. Meanwhile, the fact is the elite have already won. Imagining that the opposition does not have to deal with the “old hats” who actually have the power currently is just an idle fantasy. What is the evidence that most of the Bangkok middle class no longer support the coup? I don’t believe it for a moment. You have not considered any realistic options at all. When you make pronouncements out of thin air that “Thailand must aim for a sustainable democratic system within five years, one has to wonder why is that? The junta are planning for a system diametrically opposed to democratic rule. So, if they don’t follow your dictum what will happen? Will the EU and the US impose a boycott? Hardly likely. Will the Thai people rise up, face down the guns of the military, and demand a democracy? Harder still to imagine that.
The military and the elite they serve have no intention of giving up their control. Why should they?
Burmese nationalism, in contrast to patriotism, particularly among the ruling generals has to be seen to be believed (remember 1967 in Ne Win’s time). Elements always there like Wirathu and Ma Ba Tha ready to be stoked up, primed and unleashed against the alien other as and when it suits them, be it Indian, Chinese, Westerners, be it a diversionary way out of a domestic or an international crisis. They have form.
A repeat of 1967 cannot be ruled out. It’s only a matter of timing, the run up to the polls being one such moment.
It’s alright for you, old chap. And admittedly Sinophobia, evidently your pet project under the moniker tocherian, is all the rage today what with the regime currently inciting hatred in the direction of both our eastern and western borders notwithstanding Shwe gas and oil pipelines, Letpadaung copper mine, all the river dams and so forth (still thick as thieves with the laobans not just in the SEZs in our big cities).
The majority, or for that matter any Burmese govt be it military, NLD or Mickey Mouse, has no choice but to live with China next door. It’s in their interest to stay on neighbourly good terms and make the most out of it.
On a global scale the Chinese have done so and very successfully in relation to the US more so than post-Soviet Russia has. It is therefore incumbent upon us to wise up and take a leaf out of their book.
“Rohingya Inc.” as an industry has many beneficiaries in “both” sides (many sides really) of the divide. But one surely was diversion of the anger and frustration of landless and penny-less Burmese masses from the Chinese to Rohingya in 2011. Those days hardly anyone has heard of Rohingya. Now it is well tested and ready to be used anytime required to foment a Buddhist- Muslim killfest which everyone will enjoy except the close performers, and such diversion may last to eternity.
Yet there is a chance the Burmese may one day all of a sudden remember they don’t like the Chinese very much either.
Unlike in Cambodia where the “key” in the form of Hunsen is easily visible and steerable, who exactly is such dictatorial figure and how to fiddle with him/ her in Burma is far from clear. But what is clear is the Burmese, currently still euphoric about this “democracy” thing, would not behave like the Tibetans or Cambodians under Chinese suzerainty with grace and gratitude as suggested in the article. Neither under the Yanks for that matter either unlike yesterday’s Thais.
You might have to expend the Burma Research Center a lot bigger.
Oh well, if the Burmese want to live under the Chinese overlords as Untermenschen, just like the Tibetans and the Uyghurs, then so be it. Burma is already a quasi Chinese vassal state without territorial integrity.
I would prefer Fort Wayne, Indiana or Bergen, Norway or some other cosy place in the West, where there is more individual freedom.
Nich is absolutely spot on here, toch, sorry, Marayu. Granted it’s a hard balancing act that this regime is ill equipped in both mentality and aptitude to manage successfully in order to benefit the peoples of Burma not just their own clique and cronies.
The rise and rise of China vis-├а-vis US is itself a case in point, and they are after all an ocean apart literally. Pragmatism works but definitely caveat emptor.
Great job Nancy – and Liam for the video.
As if Palm Oil wasn’t nasty enough, we now learn that it is contaminated with mercury from the mining!
Nancy – I am sure you have been to Malakoff Diggings north of Sacramento in CA. The images in the video here of the post-placer mining tailing in Kalimantan are so reminiscent of what placer mining left behind in CA nearly 150 years ago.
This fascinating article illustrates close interconnection between human and environmental health at various registers, and the stakes of risking both for economic gain. Without viable, lucrative economic alternatives, it is hard to imagine things improving soon. I look forward to following Peluso’s upcoming publications on these topics.
Respected Mahathir Mohamad Sir,
First the sacred book to those who are killing while praying in Mosque. Give to those who kidnap women, rape and sell them in the market as toys. Give to those who kidnap and demand huge money as ransom money. I dont want to increase the list anymore.
With regrets.
“This is an enormous blow to Thailand’s international reputation and its tone deaf leaders appear unfazed by the opprobrium from Western governments.”
Nah, the Thai junta have gamed this out and realize that the Western govts really are toothless paper tigers.
Sure the EU and US have bitched and whined a bit – stopped some prawns being sold etc – but they are still selling weapons to Thailand, still recognize the junta as legitimate and will continue to do business with them. The West has no choice and are certainly not going to place the human rights of some Thais (or some Uighurs) above their own strategic interests.
Thailand is simply not a big concern for the West beyond maintaining a relationship with whoever is in power.
As for the West being concerned with the Uighur’s human rights – would these be the same Western govts who engaged in a massive programme of illegal rendition and torture, that engaged in kidnap and which flew people trussed up in the most horrible conditions to black sites all over the world including, of course, in Udon Thani?
Many thanks. Normally HRW check their sources carefully, but sometimes they get carried away. On the whole, HRW are doing an excellent job, but in this case they got it wrong. We all make mistakes.
Chinese nationality law likewise states (Paragraph 2) that “……Persons belonging to any of the nationalities in China shall have Chinese nationality”, but they also have in Paragraph 6 a provision to grant Chinese nationality to any persons born in China and whose parents are stateless or of uncertain nationality and have settled in China.
There are many Burmese who are not happy with a nationality law based on race/ethnicity. One day they hope to see it changed. The “three generations” principle (the first generation which settled, the second and third which were born in Myanmar) has been enunciated on several occasions. It broadly reflects the Indo-Burma Agreement of 1941 which assured domicile for Indians and their descendants who had settled in Burma.
The political problem for the Myanmar Government is how to give effect to this principle in the face of local opposition to any supposed concession to Arakan Muslims and in a situation where most families have lost all their family documentation and cannot prove how long they have been resident in Myanmar.
If anyone is interested in how the Rohingya got into their current predicament, they need only read the declarations by their Jamiatul Ulema in 1947 and 1948, on which I could write volumes.
The source appears to be the article “Burma: Amend Biased Citizenship Law” from HRW.
“On December 29, 2014, the UN General Assembly adopted a resolution calling on the Burmese government to amend the 1982 Citizenship Law so that it no longer discriminates against the Rohingya. Successive Burmese governments, including the current administration of Thein Sein, have used the law to deny citizenship to an estimated 800,000 to 1.3 million Rohingya by excluding them from the official list of 135 national races eligible for full citizenship.”
Hi, found this article very interesting. I have been collecting cigarette cards for some 35 years and find them fascinating. Over the years I have managed to add Thai cards to my collection, Bangkok being one of my favourite destinations. There are reference works on Thai cards, do you have them? Hope to visit and see your collection for myself. Thank you. Murray Morrison.
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Can Myanmar benefit from China plan?
Missing the point as usual. As if migration is the be all and end all. Neither is inviting either the Americans or the Chinese as CEO over Burma Inc., like many a spineless ‘thinker’ would expect.
Who can stop the Thaksin system?
It’s funny that some Thais can go on and on about how rich the Shinawatras are while ignoring the “elephant in the room”, i.e. the ACTUAL richest family in Thailand.
Can Myanmar benefit from China plan?
So why don’t all these Burmese dissidents living a cosy life in places like Australia just move to China? (I heard there are lots of Chinese students/immigrants also in Australia!)
Thai democracy’s waiting game
Sarawut,
Your response doesn’t make sense. I hardly think that the pro-democracy group believes that it is winning. Meanwhile, the fact is the elite have already won. Imagining that the opposition does not have to deal with the “old hats” who actually have the power currently is just an idle fantasy. What is the evidence that most of the Bangkok middle class no longer support the coup? I don’t believe it for a moment. You have not considered any realistic options at all. When you make pronouncements out of thin air that “Thailand must aim for a sustainable democratic system within five years, one has to wonder why is that? The junta are planning for a system diametrically opposed to democratic rule. So, if they don’t follow your dictum what will happen? Will the EU and the US impose a boycott? Hardly likely. Will the Thai people rise up, face down the guns of the military, and demand a democracy? Harder still to imagine that.
The military and the elite they serve have no intention of giving up their control. Why should they?
Can Myanmar benefit from China plan?
Burmese nationalism, in contrast to patriotism, particularly among the ruling generals has to be seen to be believed (remember 1967 in Ne Win’s time). Elements always there like Wirathu and Ma Ba Tha ready to be stoked up, primed and unleashed against the alien other as and when it suits them, be it Indian, Chinese, Westerners, be it a diversionary way out of a domestic or an international crisis. They have form.
A repeat of 1967 cannot be ruled out. It’s only a matter of timing, the run up to the polls being one such moment.
Can Myanmar benefit from China plan?
It’s alright for you, old chap. And admittedly Sinophobia, evidently your pet project under the moniker tocherian, is all the rage today what with the regime currently inciting hatred in the direction of both our eastern and western borders notwithstanding Shwe gas and oil pipelines, Letpadaung copper mine, all the river dams and so forth (still thick as thieves with the laobans not just in the SEZs in our big cities).
The majority, or for that matter any Burmese govt be it military, NLD or Mickey Mouse, has no choice but to live with China next door. It’s in their interest to stay on neighbourly good terms and make the most out of it.
On a global scale the Chinese have done so and very successfully in relation to the US more so than post-Soviet Russia has. It is therefore incumbent upon us to wise up and take a leaf out of their book.
Can Myanmar benefit from China plan?
“Rohingya Inc.” as an industry has many beneficiaries in “both” sides (many sides really) of the divide. But one surely was diversion of the anger and frustration of landless and penny-less Burmese masses from the Chinese to Rohingya in 2011. Those days hardly anyone has heard of Rohingya. Now it is well tested and ready to be used anytime required to foment a Buddhist- Muslim killfest which everyone will enjoy except the close performers, and such diversion may last to eternity.
Yet there is a chance the Burmese may one day all of a sudden remember they don’t like the Chinese very much either.
Unlike in Cambodia where the “key” in the form of Hunsen is easily visible and steerable, who exactly is such dictatorial figure and how to fiddle with him/ her in Burma is far from clear. But what is clear is the Burmese, currently still euphoric about this “democracy” thing, would not behave like the Tibetans or Cambodians under Chinese suzerainty with grace and gratitude as suggested in the article. Neither under the Yanks for that matter either unlike yesterday’s Thais.
You might have to expend the Burma Research Center a lot bigger.
Can Myanmar benefit from China plan?
Oh well, if the Burmese want to live under the Chinese overlords as Untermenschen, just like the Tibetans and the Uyghurs, then so be it. Burma is already a quasi Chinese vassal state without territorial integrity.
I would prefer Fort Wayne, Indiana or Bergen, Norway or some other cosy place in the West, where there is more individual freedom.
Can Myanmar benefit from China plan?
Nich is absolutely spot on here, toch, sorry, Marayu. Granted it’s a hard balancing act that this regime is ill equipped in both mentality and aptitude to manage successfully in order to benefit the peoples of Burma not just their own clique and cronies.
The rise and rise of China vis-├а-vis US is itself a case in point, and they are after all an ocean apart literally. Pragmatism works but definitely caveat emptor.
The end of symbolic protest in Thailand
What is happening in Thailand just makes me feel empty, really sad and empty.
The gold farmers
Great job Nancy – and Liam for the video.
As if Palm Oil wasn’t nasty enough, we now learn that it is contaminated with mercury from the mining!
Nancy – I am sure you have been to Malakoff Diggings north of Sacramento in CA. The images in the video here of the post-placer mining tailing in Kalimantan are so reminiscent of what placer mining left behind in CA nearly 150 years ago.
The gold farmers
This fascinating article illustrates close interconnection between human and environmental health at various registers, and the stakes of risking both for economic gain. Without viable, lucrative economic alternatives, it is hard to imagine things improving soon. I look forward to following Peluso’s upcoming publications on these topics.
IIS Quran distribution – one response
Respected Mahathir Mohamad Sir,
First the sacred book to those who are killing while praying in Mosque. Give to those who kidnap women, rape and sell them in the market as toys. Give to those who kidnap and demand huge money as ransom money. I dont want to increase the list anymore.
With regrets.
Thai democracy’s waiting game
Apologies for my gaffe. YES Chamberlain not Eden. Getting old…….
Southeast Asia’s Uighur dilemma
“This is an enormous blow to Thailand’s international reputation and its tone deaf leaders appear unfazed by the opprobrium from Western governments.”
Nah, the Thai junta have gamed this out and realize that the Western govts really are toothless paper tigers.
Sure the EU and US have bitched and whined a bit – stopped some prawns being sold etc – but they are still selling weapons to Thailand, still recognize the junta as legitimate and will continue to do business with them. The West has no choice and are certainly not going to place the human rights of some Thais (or some Uighurs) above their own strategic interests.
Thailand is simply not a big concern for the West beyond maintaining a relationship with whoever is in power.
As for the West being concerned with the Uighur’s human rights – would these be the same Western govts who engaged in a massive programme of illegal rendition and torture, that engaged in kidnap and which flew people trussed up in the most horrible conditions to black sites all over the world including, of course, in Udon Thani?
Thai democracy’s waiting game
Chamberlain no? Eden was opposed to the appeasement of Hitler, I think…
Social media, Rohingya and damn lies
Many thanks. Normally HRW check their sources carefully, but sometimes they get carried away. On the whole, HRW are doing an excellent job, but in this case they got it wrong. We all make mistakes.
Chinese nationality law likewise states (Paragraph 2) that “……Persons belonging to any of the nationalities in China shall have Chinese nationality”, but they also have in Paragraph 6 a provision to grant Chinese nationality to any persons born in China and whose parents are stateless or of uncertain nationality and have settled in China.
There are many Burmese who are not happy with a nationality law based on race/ethnicity. One day they hope to see it changed. The “three generations” principle (the first generation which settled, the second and third which were born in Myanmar) has been enunciated on several occasions. It broadly reflects the Indo-Burma Agreement of 1941 which assured domicile for Indians and their descendants who had settled in Burma.
The political problem for the Myanmar Government is how to give effect to this principle in the face of local opposition to any supposed concession to Arakan Muslims and in a situation where most families have lost all their family documentation and cannot prove how long they have been resident in Myanmar.
If anyone is interested in how the Rohingya got into their current predicament, they need only read the declarations by their Jamiatul Ulema in 1947 and 1948, on which I could write volumes.
Social media, Rohingya and damn lies
The source appears to be the article “Burma: Amend Biased Citizenship Law” from HRW.
“On December 29, 2014, the UN General Assembly adopted a resolution calling on the Burmese government to amend the 1982 Citizenship Law so that it no longer discriminates against the Rohingya. Successive Burmese governments, including the current administration of Thein Sein, have used the law to deny citizenship to an estimated 800,000 to 1.3 million Rohingya by excluding them from the official list of 135 national races eligible for full citizenship.”
https://www.hrw.org/news/2015/01/13/burma-amend-biased-citizenship-law
The gold farmers
Amazing photos, amazing account.
Thai cigarette cards
Hi, found this article very interesting. I have been collecting cigarette cards for some 35 years and find them fascinating. Over the years I have managed to add Thai cards to my collection, Bangkok being one of my favourite destinations. There are reference works on Thai cards, do you have them? Hope to visit and see your collection for myself. Thank you. Murray Morrison.