Dialogue depends on the willingness and necessity of people to engage in it, and on a common language as well as understanding. How can this be achieved, if the arguments of one are based on the believe that the world and all is created by God, while the other party uses logic and reason? As far as I know, there is only one logical and and rational prove of God, which is from the mathematician Pascal. However, this is not accepted by believers.
What about the necessity? There is need to have a dialogue on morals, norms etc. but this does not have to be a religious based dialogue. Thus, let us discuss how different people can life together and leave religion as an affair for those who find it important.
A further aspect is that for one party the distinction between believers and non-believers is used as legitimation of the supression and neglect of recognition of the latter, what does not really facilitate dialogue.
As long as religion is not secularized and regarded as a private affair, dialogue is impossible. As long as morals based on religion are regarded as of a higher standing than those based on social consensus, there is no chance for dialogue.
I live in Chiang Mai, both in Saraphi district, and Chiang Dao up in the hills. It is comical that some think they are the same up here, the truth is, they are just watching, waiting, and remembering.
I always thought that it is not-islamic to translate the Quran? The Quaran is the word of Allah, and thus any translation would modify the holy words and lead to mis-understandings. Thus, distributing translated (better adulterated)version of the Quran is blasphemy, because the uneducated reader will not be able to distinguish satanic verses from the words of God!
I actually did not realize, until Red Leader Weng so loudly pointed the matter out, that Thaksin/Yingluck, the UDD leaders and the red shirts membership deeply reveres and follows the ‘teachings’ ofWat Phra Dhammakaya abbot Phra Dhammachayo.
Just as Thaksin had been deeply enamored with that Myanmar notorious shaman ET (remember?), Thaksin too had been mesmerized, dazzled and sold to Phra Dhammachayo insurance pitch of the eternal after-life bliss … and with that insurance personally given by that abbot, several legal cases against Wat Phra Dhammakaya abbot Phra Dhammachayo were withdrawn in 2006 while Thaksin was Thai PM.
I was raather hoping Nick Nostitz could do his usual epic photographic essay of the Wat Dammakaya sage this time … or else the Red Shirts story wouldn’t be complete, would it?
If I need a Quran or a Bhagavadgita or any other so-called sacred book, I go to a shop and buy it. I will NOT have it foisted on me for free or otherwise by anybody, period!
Was there academic freedom before the coup? As far as I know, 112 was applied already since a long time. It was quite common that scholars were beaten up and assasinated (f.e. Bunsanong, and quite a few were denounced as non-Thai, without morals etc. Finally, academic freedom was limited by patronage within the universities etc. A question is, how important is this form of freedom for those in the universities. Don’t forget that the coup found many supporters there as well!
I was just up in Chiang Mai last month and the opinions I heard were not the ones that Mr. Rees thinks we will hear. Perhaps he is referring to a lesser known Chiang Mai, not the one we all know on the Ping River? Or, perhaps the people I spoke with were not Thai? They sure spoke Thai very well if that was the case.
Using the threat of violence to force morals onto people is something the Thai generals have in common with ISIS. It doesn’t disqualify them from being thugs. The main difference is that the Thai generals are dealing with a more tractable population. The most successful democracies all have tractable populations which have shifted their allegiance from patrons to abstract laws. It is a matter of historical fact that laws are most effective when they are made by the people’s elected representatives.
Tahir,
I recently wrote a book on Anwar, and cover “Sodomy II” with as much research as I could find. If you’re in Malaysia, “Anwar Ibrahim: Evolution of a Muslim Democrat” can be found there through Monsoon Publishers (Singapore). If you’re in the west, try Amazon.
Correction Nick Nostitz: the last Red Shirt fortress is still standing, and it appears, flourishing and very amply ‘funded’. That last Red Shirts fortress is at Pathum Thani too (where Gotee once flourished).
That fortress is Wat Dhammakaya and Red Shirt leader Weng Tojirakarn is incensed that the recent attacks against Wat Dhammakaya could be linked ‘with the dumping of the Pheu Thai party’s rice pledging scheme after the May 22 coup, and drafting of the new charter by the Constitution Drafting Committee to clip the wings of democratically elected MPs and senators.’ Weng had freely admitted that “that Wat Dhammakaya, the UDD(Red Shirts movement) and Thaksin are all linked together, and that the Dhammakaya monks are a power base of both Thaksin, the UDD and the democratic
movement.”
While the happy general has been busy pontificating about his anti-corruption drive(s) in Thailand he has failed to mention one very salient point – the corruption in the military.
Thuggery is part of this problem. The vast amount of corruption manifest in Thailand has numerous links to and with the military who has always been unaccountable to anyone – save a few ‘sacrificial’ lambs – read wolves – along the way.
In my view the military claims loyalty to the monarchy and its elite affiliates solely to advance and protect their own self-serving interests – power and money.
The military in Thailand is a business. Period.
Today, Prayuth is to head up a ”’super board’ on education system” reform: http://news.asiaone.com/news/asia/prayuth-lead-super-board-education-system-reform as his 12 core values – undoubtedly going down a storm with the children in state education – set the basis for a very insipid or non-existent academic or otherwise future for Thailand.
Academic freedom will abound – no doubt – but as long as it conforms.
The Thai Royal- Army – Elite establishment are a true gang of thugs and criminals- and I am probably too modérate in my definition. All who care about freedom, democracy, justice and human rights should determinately oppose the military tyranny
I don’t think that ‘thugs’ is an accurate description of most of the generals. I think ignorance and naivety has put them between a rock and a hard place. Of course, they should not have had the coup, but they did and then a purge which can only be maintained by martial law. I am sure there were just as many thugs in past parties/governments as there are now. Of course if you think thuggery is an apt label for forcing morals on people and conservative attitudes then it may be appropriate. But it is their stupidity that drives them into laying out iron-fisted rules.
This post makes a very worthwhile contribution to the question. I doubt, however, whether there are political considerations in Jokowi’s mind. As far as I recall, proceeding with executions has been Jokowi’s preference from the beginning, and has nothing to do with his fall in popularity or other political factors.
1. The standards of forensic evidence in Indonesia are deplorable. There are very
few Forensic Chemists and Biologists who
are certified by an accrediting agency.
2. The quality of expert testimony by psychiatrists and psychologists in civil courts in Indonesia are deplorable. Neither are allowed in Shari’a courts. Therefore,
mentally-ill individuals who commit crimes
beyond their capacity, are rarely properly
assessed (likewise, those who feign mental illness).
It is not enough to simply spout what the Constitution states or what Indonesian lawyers and politicians may claim. The reality is that Indonesia has a low standard for forensic evidence, poor legal standards for adjudication, and a corrupt judiciary, that is unfamiliar with forensic testimony.
I repeat what I have said before: If the forensic evidence (whether DNA, drugs, hair,
textiles, blood, bodily fluids, glass, wood, impression evidence, etc.) is wrong, contaminated or faked, and someone is executed, as a consequence, you cannot bring them back. That ALONE is sufficient reason to ban capital punishment in Indonesia, nay, in the whole World.
There are some issues with this analysis. In Indonesia, as in most other death penalty states, a decision to grant clemency is not an EXCEPTION to the law, it is an integral PART of the law. Specifically, Keputusan Makhamah Konstitusi No. 2-3/PUU-V-2007 states: “Pidana mati dapat dijatuhkan dg masa percobaan apabila terpidana berkelakuan terpuji dapat diubah dengan pidana penjara seumur hidup atau selama 20 tahun. (The Death Penalty can be imposed with a probationary period, and if the convict has displayed exemplary conduct during his/her incarceration, the punishment can be reduced to a life sentence, or 20 years’ imprisonment.)” While we can’t rely on media reports showing that the two Australians have indeed shown exceptional rehabilitation, there is certainly a prima facie case, which the President has chosen not even to look at. Rather, he appears to be driven NOT to apply the Indonesian law on the basis of very shallow, political considerations.
e claims that he is a florid paranoid schizophrenic. Here, the same constitutional court decision states: “Eksekusi pidana mati terhadap perempuan yang sedang hamil dan seseorang yang sakit jiwa ditangguhkan sampai perempuan hamil tersebut melahirkan dan terpidana yang sakit jiwa tersebut. (The Death Penalty can neither be imposed upon pregnant women nor upon those diagnosed with a mental illness and shall be postponed until the pregnant convict has given birth and the mentally ill convict has been declared sound of mind.)” Again, we can’t rely on media reports regarding his mental state, but there appears to be a prima facie case that has been entirely ignored. So, yet again, it would seem that it would be entirely in compliance with the Indonesian law to call for a stay while these claims are investigated, if for no other reason than to demonstrate that the law has been upheld.
More generally, unlike in some jurisdictions, there is no requirement under Indonesian law that a death sentence be implemented within a specific time frame. It is a fact that there are hundreds of prisoners in the Indonesian penal system under sentence of death, in some case there for decades. In many cases, this could be regarded as a de facto commutation of the sentence. In any case, the Indonesian law permits prisoners to be sentenced to death but to remain alive in the penal system, as was the case for almost all prisoners under sentence of death during SBY’s period as president. This is also the case in many other countries, where a de facto moratorium on the death sentence applies.
To sum up: It would be entirely consistent with Indonesian law to continue the policies that applied during the SBY period, when the sentence of death was passed but very rarely implemented. The easiest solution would be to maintain this status quo. To move to a policy that will place Indonesia in the top ten states around the globe in terms of the number of prisoners it executes, which will be the case if Jokowi proceeds with stated plans to execute 60 prisoners this year, requires a proactive executive policy that is the prerogative of the President to make or fail to make. Given that, it is entirely right and proper that institutions with moral authority, such as the United Nations, make representations to him to make a decision, which in no way contravenes Indonesian law, to not proceed to implementation.
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Religion and atheism: the need for dialogue
Dialogue depends on the willingness and necessity of people to engage in it, and on a common language as well as understanding. How can this be achieved, if the arguments of one are based on the believe that the world and all is created by God, while the other party uses logic and reason? As far as I know, there is only one logical and and rational prove of God, which is from the mathematician Pascal. However, this is not accepted by believers.
What about the necessity? There is need to have a dialogue on morals, norms etc. but this does not have to be a religious based dialogue. Thus, let us discuss how different people can life together and leave religion as an affair for those who find it important.
A further aspect is that for one party the distinction between believers and non-believers is used as legitimation of the supression and neglect of recognition of the latter, what does not really facilitate dialogue.
As long as religion is not secularized and regarded as a private affair, dialogue is impossible. As long as morals based on religion are regarded as of a higher standing than those based on social consensus, there is no chance for dialogue.
V-Day resistance to the junta’s coercive regime
I live in Chiang Mai, both in Saraphi district, and Chiang Dao up in the hills. It is comical that some think they are the same up here, the truth is, they are just watching, waiting, and remembering.
IIS Quran distribution – one response
I always thought that it is not-islamic to translate the Quran? The Quaran is the word of Allah, and thus any translation would modify the holy words and lead to mis-understandings. Thus, distributing translated (better adulterated)version of the Quran is blasphemy, because the uneducated reader will not be able to distinguish satanic verses from the words of God!
Bangkok’s last Red Shirt fortress
I actually did not realize, until Red Leader Weng so loudly pointed the matter out, that Thaksin/Yingluck, the UDD leaders and the red shirts membership deeply reveres and follows the ‘teachings’ ofWat Phra Dhammakaya abbot Phra Dhammachayo.
Just as Thaksin had been deeply enamored with that Myanmar notorious shaman ET (remember?), Thaksin too had been mesmerized, dazzled and sold to Phra Dhammachayo insurance pitch of the eternal after-life bliss … and with that insurance personally given by that abbot, several legal cases against Wat Phra Dhammakaya abbot Phra Dhammachayo were withdrawn in 2006 while Thaksin was Thai PM.
I was raather hoping Nick Nostitz could do his usual epic photographic essay of the Wat Dammakaya sage this time … or else the Red Shirts story wouldn’t be complete, would it?
IIS Quran distribution – one response
If I need a Quran or a Bhagavadgita or any other so-called sacred book, I go to a shop and buy it. I will NOT have it foisted on me for free or otherwise by anybody, period!
Religion and atheism: the need for dialogue
Why isn’t there any interfaith dialogue b/t 2+ religions where Islam is the Dominant religion as in the Middle East and Malaysia?
Dialogue similar to islamophobia appear to be another delaying/denying of all other religions as co-equal.
Atheism is a religion. Denying the existence of a Deity is just 1 facet of this religion.
Academic freedom in Thailand
Was there academic freedom before the coup? As far as I know, 112 was applied already since a long time. It was quite common that scholars were beaten up and assasinated (f.e. Bunsanong, and quite a few were denounced as non-Thai, without morals etc. Finally, academic freedom was limited by patronage within the universities etc. A question is, how important is this form of freedom for those in the universities. Don’t forget that the coup found many supporters there as well!
V-Day resistance to the junta’s coercive regime
I was just up in Chiang Mai last month and the opinions I heard were not the ones that Mr. Rees thinks we will hear. Perhaps he is referring to a lesser known Chiang Mai, not the one we all know on the Ping River? Or, perhaps the people I spoke with were not Thai? They sure spoke Thai very well if that was the case.
Academic freedom in Thailand
Using the threat of violence to force morals onto people is something the Thai generals have in common with ISIS. It doesn’t disqualify them from being thugs. The main difference is that the Thai generals are dealing with a more tractable population. The most successful democracies all have tractable populations which have shifted their allegiance from patrons to abstract laws. It is a matter of historical fact that laws are most effective when they are made by the people’s elected representatives.
A fatal mistake
To prevent any possible misunderstanding, I should mention that the above comment refers to Irfan Kortschak’s comment.
Life after Anwar
Tahir,
I recently wrote a book on Anwar, and cover “Sodomy II” with as much research as I could find. If you’re in Malaysia, “Anwar Ibrahim: Evolution of a Muslim Democrat” can be found there through Monsoon Publishers (Singapore). If you’re in the west, try Amazon.
Bangkok’s last Red Shirt fortress
Correction Nick Nostitz: the last Red Shirt fortress is still standing, and it appears, flourishing and very amply ‘funded’. That last Red Shirts fortress is at Pathum Thani too (where Gotee once flourished).
That fortress is Wat Dhammakaya and Red Shirt leader Weng Tojirakarn is incensed that the recent attacks against Wat Dhammakaya could be linked ‘with the dumping of the Pheu Thai party’s rice pledging scheme after the May 22 coup, and drafting of the new charter by the Constitution Drafting Committee to clip the wings of democratically elected MPs and senators.’ Weng had freely admitted that “that Wat Dhammakaya, the UDD(Red Shirts movement) and Thaksin are all linked together, and that the Dhammakaya monks are a power base of both Thaksin, the UDD and the democratic
movement.”
Academic freedom in Thailand
Sorry one more point.
While the happy general has been busy pontificating about his anti-corruption drive(s) in Thailand he has failed to mention one very salient point – the corruption in the military.
Why?
Academic freedom in Thailand
Thuggery is part of this problem. The vast amount of corruption manifest in Thailand has numerous links to and with the military who has always been unaccountable to anyone – save a few ‘sacrificial’ lambs – read wolves – along the way.
In my view the military claims loyalty to the monarchy and its elite affiliates solely to advance and protect their own self-serving interests – power and money.
The military in Thailand is a business. Period.
Today, Prayuth is to head up a ”’super board’ on education system” reform: http://news.asiaone.com/news/asia/prayuth-lead-super-board-education-system-reform as his 12 core values – undoubtedly going down a storm with the children in state education – set the basis for a very insipid or non-existent academic or otherwise future for Thailand.
Academic freedom will abound – no doubt – but as long as it conforms.
Southeast Asian elections worst in the world
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Academic freedom in Thailand
The Thai Royal- Army – Elite establishment are a true gang of thugs and criminals- and I am probably too modérate in my definition. All who care about freedom, democracy, justice and human rights should determinately oppose the military tyranny
Academic freedom in Thailand
I don’t think that ‘thugs’ is an accurate description of most of the generals. I think ignorance and naivety has put them between a rock and a hard place. Of course, they should not have had the coup, but they did and then a purge which can only be maintained by martial law. I am sure there were just as many thugs in past parties/governments as there are now. Of course if you think thuggery is an apt label for forcing morals on people and conservative attitudes then it may be appropriate. But it is their stupidity that drives them into laying out iron-fisted rules.
A fatal mistake
This post makes a very worthwhile contribution to the question. I doubt, however, whether there are political considerations in Jokowi’s mind. As far as I recall, proceeding with executions has been Jokowi’s preference from the beginning, and has nothing to do with his fall in popularity or other political factors.
A fatal mistake
In Indonesia:
1. The standards of forensic evidence in Indonesia are deplorable. There are very
few Forensic Chemists and Biologists who
are certified by an accrediting agency.
2. The quality of expert testimony by psychiatrists and psychologists in civil courts in Indonesia are deplorable. Neither are allowed in Shari’a courts. Therefore,
mentally-ill individuals who commit crimes
beyond their capacity, are rarely properly
assessed (likewise, those who feign mental illness).
It is not enough to simply spout what the Constitution states or what Indonesian lawyers and politicians may claim. The reality is that Indonesia has a low standard for forensic evidence, poor legal standards for adjudication, and a corrupt judiciary, that is unfamiliar with forensic testimony.
I repeat what I have said before: If the forensic evidence (whether DNA, drugs, hair,
textiles, blood, bodily fluids, glass, wood, impression evidence, etc.) is wrong, contaminated or faked, and someone is executed, as a consequence, you cannot bring them back. That ALONE is sufficient reason to ban capital punishment in Indonesia, nay, in the whole World.
A fatal mistake
There are some issues with this analysis. In Indonesia, as in most other death penalty states, a decision to grant clemency is not an EXCEPTION to the law, it is an integral PART of the law. Specifically, Keputusan Makhamah Konstitusi No. 2-3/PUU-V-2007 states: “Pidana mati dapat dijatuhkan dg masa percobaan apabila terpidana berkelakuan terpuji dapat diubah dengan pidana penjara seumur hidup atau selama 20 tahun. (The Death Penalty can be imposed with a probationary period, and if the convict has displayed exemplary conduct during his/her incarceration, the punishment can be reduced to a life sentence, or 20 years’ imprisonment.)” While we can’t rely on media reports showing that the two Australians have indeed shown exceptional rehabilitation, there is certainly a prima facie case, which the President has chosen not even to look at. Rather, he appears to be driven NOT to apply the Indonesian law on the basis of very shallow, political considerations.
e claims that he is a florid paranoid schizophrenic. Here, the same constitutional court decision states: “Eksekusi pidana mati terhadap perempuan yang sedang hamil dan seseorang yang sakit jiwa ditangguhkan sampai perempuan hamil tersebut melahirkan dan terpidana yang sakit jiwa tersebut. (The Death Penalty can neither be imposed upon pregnant women nor upon those diagnosed with a mental illness and shall be postponed until the pregnant convict has given birth and the mentally ill convict has been declared sound of mind.)” Again, we can’t rely on media reports regarding his mental state, but there appears to be a prima facie case that has been entirely ignored. So, yet again, it would seem that it would be entirely in compliance with the Indonesian law to call for a stay while these claims are investigated, if for no other reason than to demonstrate that the law has been upheld.
More generally, unlike in some jurisdictions, there is no requirement under Indonesian law that a death sentence be implemented within a specific time frame. It is a fact that there are hundreds of prisoners in the Indonesian penal system under sentence of death, in some case there for decades. In many cases, this could be regarded as a de facto commutation of the sentence. In any case, the Indonesian law permits prisoners to be sentenced to death but to remain alive in the penal system, as was the case for almost all prisoners under sentence of death during SBY’s period as president. This is also the case in many other countries, where a de facto moratorium on the death sentence applies.
To sum up: It would be entirely consistent with Indonesian law to continue the policies that applied during the SBY period, when the sentence of death was passed but very rarely implemented. The easiest solution would be to maintain this status quo. To move to a policy that will place Indonesia in the top ten states around the globe in terms of the number of prisoners it executes, which will be the case if Jokowi proceeds with stated plans to execute 60 prisoners this year, requires a proactive executive policy that is the prerogative of the President to make or fail to make. Given that, it is entirely right and proper that institutions with moral authority, such as the United Nations, make representations to him to make a decision, which in no way contravenes Indonesian law, to not proceed to implementation.