Good luck Richard, its a most worthy cause. As I’m sure your well aware, its a steep uphill battle.
Unfortunately critical thinking and intelligent probing debate amongst the general public in the pursuit of equality and justice are crimes that have been culturally outlawed by the Amart for many generations already.
Thailand is a country where many grown men and women are so thoroughly brainwashed as to their own inferiority, that it is still customary and acceptable to throw themselves at the feet of individuals of certain official rank and crawl around down there for as long as asked in total subservience without so much as a second thought to their own dignity.
In fact the brain washing is so thorough that photos of such grovelling often become a possession of great family pride.
If you want to be issued your masters degree in Thailand after years of hard work, no problem, the final required task is to grovel your way up to the podium, hands and knees thanks you lowly creature!
There’s very few places on earth where brainwashing of the general population into such mindless subservience under the elite has been this complete.
A giant cultural leap is needed (time warp?) to go from the current state of brainwashed mindless grovelling that consumes a large proportion of the populace to a point where openly and intelligently debating moral imperatives directly between all levels of society is accepted.
Currently the amart are not ready to lower themselves into an open debate with the people who are demanding equality and a more equitable share of the national spoils, so they guarantee complete subservience via the military. Shame on them.
Why would I do that? As I said, I think the coup is BAD.
I don’t think that that means that anything anyone says about Prayuth or what the RTA is doing is automatically TRUE just because it supports the belief that the coup is BAD.
To me, BAD and GOOD are relative terms, not absolutes. That is why I asked about the value of “democracy” in Thailand if it is clear that RTA torture etc. either goes on under elected governments or is granted the notorious impunity that gives such characteristic reek to the doings of the Thai elite.
If the only real difference between an elected government and a military dictatorship is who gets the graft and electoral disenfranchisement (i.e. the loss of the right to designate which grifters get the graft), then I suggest the rhetorical overkill that floats around all forms of media these days is just a tad nonsensical.
“prudent fascists” – yes. It is the fulfillment of greed by elitist interests, rather than any exalted sense of protecting the monarchy and combating corruption, that propels the military leadership and their fascist buddies.
Lerm, Kritsuda’s testimony is evidence – perhaps not compelling evidence – but if what she is saying is true, I suppose it may have been difficult for her to record a video of her treatment and seek corroborating testimony from the officers who adjusted her attitude.
I think you’re giving the US policy makers too much credit. The US is caught between a rock and a hard place. The military interests want to contain China, while the business interests want to make a ton of money by cooperating with China.
I still insist on PROOF particularly from the likes of serial misinformer like Jim Taylor.
Jim Taylor says this recent Thai coup conducts “routine torture” and responsible for “thousands of disappeareds”.
Proof Jim Taylor … give me proof. Proof that these recent Thai coupiests are not only bad but monstrous … if Jim Taylor is not lying and misinforming as usual.
Say what you mean guys. Free up more cash for Java. More informed [not] one-size fits-all advice from people who should, but don’t seem to care, that RI is an archipelago not a continent. A simple withdrawal of fuel subsidies would see the poorest, and some middle class people east of Bali return to burning firewood and the environmental and health consequences thereof. Great economics guys. Hundreds of thousands who borrowed to buy bikes and cars wouldn’t be able to repay, credit would dry up and stagflation ensue. Not to mention the effect of inter-island transport, one of the few strategic non Military pluses Jakarta possesses to keep the country together. Even Canberra had to ensure WA benefited from fiscal equalisation to keep it in the Federation while developing. You want a mess in Eastern Indonesia, just get rid of the fuel subsidy. It’s an ARCHIPELAGO with uneven development and structural poverty, not a continent. You want more smuggling, piracy and corruption, that’s what you’ll get.
Who needs Hockey to tell us the poor don’t drive when ANU says it so much better?
I see that the fascists are considering setting another utterly shameless although quite predictable precedent by not subjecting themselves to asset declarations before framing (dictating) Thailand’s future.
Clearly, when the under table tender commissions (roughly 30%) of the 4 Trillion baht infrastructure budget start being divvied out amongst the key stake holders, such prior asset declarations will become somewhat of an inconvenience.
Savvy fascists know that checks and balances should only ever be applied fully to their opposition. And setting up a permanent framework so that only the opposition will be subjected to strict enforcement of checks and balances going forward is indeed the central goal of this entire operation.
However as prudent fascists who prefer to leave nothing to chance, they have already enshrined their own custom tailored blanket amnesty into the new interim constitution and we can expect more of the same when the permanent constitution is produced by their strategically appointed lackeys.
Its been a very sad year for Thailand and its still going down hill at a rapid click.
Yes…Hua Hin being a provincial center with vendors in the hundreds or thousands is much easier for the Puu Yai to sweep out and do its big cleaning then it would for them to do in Bangkok where the vendors number into the hundreds of thousands. But it still clearly shows their intentions that being, paving the way for the elites to make as much money as possible at the expense of those who have the least opportunity. This is an interesting development must jap da moong duu and see how they may try and modify the formal and informal policies toward vendors in Bangkok. If they try and do something similar around Anu Saawri or Silom it would provoke a strong reaction perhaps to the point of a protest that would go against the martial law policy against meetings of more than five people. Mobile Vendors simultaneously problematize the neoliberal tendencies of Thai political economy through their individually directed activities and use of the highly limited amount of public space in the big city while also allowing the big businesses to thrive by offering low cost amenities to their underpayed employees. Even though the poor are not allowed to vote, they are active in taking control of their destiny through their feet, carts, and stalls and for the most part they ignore the laws that would control these activities. They carry off a little bit of the “system” with each step.
Mr. Beesey,
I know that my comments are pretty “blunt”, perhaps because I have no “vested interests” and I don’t belong to the “ruling-class” anywhere, and I appreciate that you understand “where I’m coming from”.
About the “impotence” (or rather “Angst vor China”) of ASEAN here is a recent article by Bertil Lintner (someone with direct experience “on the ground” like you): http://www.irrawaddy.org/asia/asean-paralysis-gives-china-free-hand-south-china-sea.html
I think you misunderstand the nature of postings on NM re: Thailand. The coup is BAD and anything you say must reflect that. No other substantiation required.
Presumably, Jim, some of this was going on under the YL administration?
If not, if it could not be reported and acted upon under a democratically-elected administration, what is the value, precisely, of Thais bothering to elect anyone at all?
(I’ve noticed a tendency for any post that actually asks a question (thereby admitting that not all the judgements are foregone conclusions) gets a lot of negative feedback. Please do carry on.)
But you have to wonder. When did a once intellectually active site like NM turn into a version of Thai Visa?
sorry if I seemed to be off-direct-topic in my comment about voting in Australia
but I think that in every country democratic elections share the same problem that besets the capitalist free-market … they both really only work well when the voters/consumers are fully and fairly informed of the issues
in elections politicians are motivated to please the voters and hide their flaws, in the “free-market” sellers are motivated the same way
result: the voters/consumers are deliberately hoodwinked to, if possible, avoid them choosing what is “best” for them
which inevitably leads to the most savvy team winning the election, in many cases the dumber/simplistic/most assiduously applied messages win (which seems to be what previous commenters have said)
ps… I have been following Thailand military/royalist dictatorship-constrained democracy and have had to think through these fundamental issues … it would have been terrible for Thailand if Indonesia had reverted toward the military controlled state again!!!!
Perhaps it’s not so much that the Indonesian voters didn’t realise that “July’s election was a referendum on an authoritarian reversal” – but that a lot of them do not share that assessment.
This could be because they have more faith in the democratic institutions of Indonesia & voters capacity in voting the undesirables out of their office, it could also be because the idea that Indonesia is “too democratic” actually resonates with many voters. I don’t mean that the voters do not “like democracy” as the survey data suggest; as the pointed out in other comments, this could be because many Indonesian voters have a different opinion about how democracy should be carried out. During the campaign period, Prabowo had consistently conflated issues caused by decentralisation with democratisation and presented them as inevitable results of Indonesia democratising too quickly. Arguably problems such as systemic corruptions and government inefficiency have more to do with the administrative fragementation than democratisation per se, but thanks to the successful framing of Prabowo, I suspect many voters bought into his portrayal. In this sense, the people who voted for Prabowo due to this reason most likely saw themselves as voting against problems caused by decentralisation and did not see themselves as anti-democratic. This is just a speculation of course. More data is needed.
In my humble opinion, satisfaction about democracy is a bad proxy to explain how the presidential votes becomes as it is. We, average Indonesians, rarely really talk about the demokrasi (as a word) when we talk about politics among ourselves. Nor we really talk about complicated concepts such as authoritarianism or authoritarian reversal. For us Indonesian average joe’s in the village this election is about prices of goods, who is more handsome/charming, and who is (potentially) better at scolding local officials. These are things that we talk about week in-week out in our rondas, arisans, rembugans, gotong royongs, syukurans etc.
It is in these occasions as well that democratic process in Indonesia are really at work. This is where exchanges of ideas and debates are taking place. This is where the real campaigning is. Ultimately, this where the election was won and lost. I truly believe controlling the influence within these forums is key.
Foreign analysts tend to view democracy as an individual matter. It is not. In Indonesia, it is more about group consensus. This explains why Prabowo still manages to gain 47% of votes is because of well coordinated grass root canvassing through political party influences spread out in every RT and RW. It also explains why Jokowi manages to rebound his electability in the last two weeks of the campaigning period. It is common knowledge that Jokowi’s camp (both volunteers and party influence)only manages to step their act in grass root campaigning in the last two weeks with a little amunition help from Prabowo’s camp (Fahri’s Sinting and Hatta’s Kalpataru).
In Indonesia, I believe you guys just have to think simpler or simply just observe. In such, the notion by foreign analysts about Indonesia democracy being a fluke, that’s the fluke.
Tocharian, I have no argument with what you say, my main point was that ASEAN has had a very strong non-engagement policy, it was like a shield which allowed for all sorts of atrocities. They would not support Suu Kyi back then against the junta. I do not doubt that you know what you are talking about re China, but can you not engage/ignore a super power? Global politics seems to be based on engagement until a crisis happens. Only those with vested interest in the elite have a say in this game, and they have made a mess.
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Confused Thai Educators
Good luck Richard, its a most worthy cause. As I’m sure your well aware, its a steep uphill battle.
Unfortunately critical thinking and intelligent probing debate amongst the general public in the pursuit of equality and justice are crimes that have been culturally outlawed by the Amart for many generations already.
Thailand is a country where many grown men and women are so thoroughly brainwashed as to their own inferiority, that it is still customary and acceptable to throw themselves at the feet of individuals of certain official rank and crawl around down there for as long as asked in total subservience without so much as a second thought to their own dignity.
In fact the brain washing is so thorough that photos of such grovelling often become a possession of great family pride.
If you want to be issued your masters degree in Thailand after years of hard work, no problem, the final required task is to grovel your way up to the podium, hands and knees thanks you lowly creature!
There’s very few places on earth where brainwashing of the general population into such mindless subservience under the elite has been this complete.
A giant cultural leap is needed (time warp?) to go from the current state of brainwashed mindless grovelling that consumes a large proportion of the populace to a point where openly and intelligently debating moral imperatives directly between all levels of society is accepted.
Currently the amart are not ready to lower themselves into an open debate with the people who are demanding equality and a more equitable share of the national spoils, so they guarantee complete subservience via the military. Shame on them.
Open Letter Condemning the Thai Constitution
Anyway, I also think that there is no torture or persecution in North Korea – show me proof if you think otherwise….DUH!
Open Letter Condemning the Thai Constitution
Why would I do that? As I said, I think the coup is BAD.
I don’t think that that means that anything anyone says about Prayuth or what the RTA is doing is automatically TRUE just because it supports the belief that the coup is BAD.
To me, BAD and GOOD are relative terms, not absolutes. That is why I asked about the value of “democracy” in Thailand if it is clear that RTA torture etc. either goes on under elected governments or is granted the notorious impunity that gives such characteristic reek to the doings of the Thai elite.
If the only real difference between an elected government and a military dictatorship is who gets the graft and electoral disenfranchisement (i.e. the loss of the right to designate which grifters get the graft), then I suggest the rhetorical overkill that floats around all forms of media these days is just a tad nonsensical.
And let me just say, the coup is BAD.
Open Letter Condemning the Thai Constitution
Is it just me or does the Junta allow the English language Thai press more leeway in reporting?
Open Letter Condemning the Thai Constitution
“prudent fascists” – yes. It is the fulfillment of greed by elitist interests, rather than any exalted sense of protecting the monarchy and combating corruption, that propels the military leadership and their fascist buddies.
Open Letter Condemning the Thai Constitution
Emjay, feel free to tell us why the coup is good.
Lerm, Kritsuda’s testimony is evidence – perhaps not compelling evidence – but if what she is saying is true, I suppose it may have been difficult for her to record a video of her treatment and seek corroborating testimony from the officers who adjusted her attitude.
Of pragmatism and politics
I think you’re giving the US policy makers too much credit. The US is caught between a rock and a hard place. The military interests want to contain China, while the business interests want to make a ton of money by cooperating with China.
Open Letter Condemning the Thai Constitution
I still insist on PROOF particularly from the likes of serial misinformer like Jim Taylor.
Jim Taylor says this recent Thai coup conducts “routine torture” and responsible for “thousands of disappeareds”.
Proof Jim Taylor … give me proof. Proof that these recent Thai coupiests are not only bad but monstrous … if Jim Taylor is not lying and misinforming as usual.
Time for a new approach to Indonesia’s energy subsidies
Say what you mean guys. Free up more cash for Java. More informed [not] one-size fits-all advice from people who should, but don’t seem to care, that RI is an archipelago not a continent. A simple withdrawal of fuel subsidies would see the poorest, and some middle class people east of Bali return to burning firewood and the environmental and health consequences thereof. Great economics guys. Hundreds of thousands who borrowed to buy bikes and cars wouldn’t be able to repay, credit would dry up and stagflation ensue. Not to mention the effect of inter-island transport, one of the few strategic non Military pluses Jakarta possesses to keep the country together. Even Canberra had to ensure WA benefited from fiscal equalisation to keep it in the Federation while developing. You want a mess in Eastern Indonesia, just get rid of the fuel subsidy. It’s an ARCHIPELAGO with uneven development and structural poverty, not a continent. You want more smuggling, piracy and corruption, that’s what you’ll get.
Who needs Hockey to tell us the poor don’t drive when ANU says it so much better?
Open Letter Condemning the Thai Constitution
I see that the fascists are considering setting another utterly shameless although quite predictable precedent by not subjecting themselves to asset declarations before framing (dictating) Thailand’s future.
http://www.bangkokpost.com/opinion/opinion/426635/heed-calls-for-transparency
Clearly, when the under table tender commissions (roughly 30%) of the 4 Trillion baht infrastructure budget start being divvied out amongst the key stake holders, such prior asset declarations will become somewhat of an inconvenience.
Savvy fascists know that checks and balances should only ever be applied fully to their opposition. And setting up a permanent framework so that only the opposition will be subjected to strict enforcement of checks and balances going forward is indeed the central goal of this entire operation.
However as prudent fascists who prefer to leave nothing to chance, they have already enshrined their own custom tailored blanket amnesty into the new interim constitution and we can expect more of the same when the permanent constitution is produced by their strategically appointed lackeys.
Its been a very sad year for Thailand and its still going down hill at a rapid click.
Hard choices: Jokowi’s fiscal reform challenge
[…] At New Mandala: the new president has some tough budget decisions to make from day one. […]
Open Letter Condemning the Thai Constitution
Yes…Hua Hin being a provincial center with vendors in the hundreds or thousands is much easier for the Puu Yai to sweep out and do its big cleaning then it would for them to do in Bangkok where the vendors number into the hundreds of thousands. But it still clearly shows their intentions that being, paving the way for the elites to make as much money as possible at the expense of those who have the least opportunity. This is an interesting development must jap da moong duu and see how they may try and modify the formal and informal policies toward vendors in Bangkok. If they try and do something similar around Anu Saawri or Silom it would provoke a strong reaction perhaps to the point of a protest that would go against the martial law policy against meetings of more than five people. Mobile Vendors simultaneously problematize the neoliberal tendencies of Thai political economy through their individually directed activities and use of the highly limited amount of public space in the big city while also allowing the big businesses to thrive by offering low cost amenities to their underpayed employees. Even though the poor are not allowed to vote, they are active in taking control of their destiny through their feet, carts, and stalls and for the most part they ignore the laws that would control these activities. They carry off a little bit of the “system” with each step.
Of pragmatism and politics
Mr. Beesey,
I know that my comments are pretty “blunt”, perhaps because I have no “vested interests” and I don’t belong to the “ruling-class” anywhere, and I appreciate that you understand “where I’m coming from”.
About the “impotence” (or rather “Angst vor China”) of ASEAN here is a recent article by Bertil Lintner (someone with direct experience “on the ground” like you):
http://www.irrawaddy.org/asia/asean-paralysis-gives-china-free-hand-south-china-sea.html
Open Letter Condemning the Thai Constitution
I think you misunderstand the nature of postings on NM re: Thailand. The coup is BAD and anything you say must reflect that. No other substantiation required.
The coup is without a doubt BAD.
Open Letter Condemning the Thai Constitution
Presumably, Jim, some of this was going on under the YL administration?
If not, if it could not be reported and acted upon under a democratically-elected administration, what is the value, precisely, of Thais bothering to elect anyone at all?
(I’ve noticed a tendency for any post that actually asks a question (thereby admitting that not all the judgements are foregone conclusions) gets a lot of negative feedback. Please do carry on.)
But you have to wonder. When did a once intellectually active site like NM turn into a version of Thai Visa?
Did Indonesians fluke it?
sorry if I seemed to be off-direct-topic in my comment about voting in Australia
but I think that in every country democratic elections share the same problem that besets the capitalist free-market … they both really only work well when the voters/consumers are fully and fairly informed of the issues
in elections politicians are motivated to please the voters and hide their flaws, in the “free-market” sellers are motivated the same way
result: the voters/consumers are deliberately hoodwinked to, if possible, avoid them choosing what is “best” for them
which inevitably leads to the most savvy team winning the election, in many cases the dumber/simplistic/most assiduously applied messages win (which seems to be what previous commenters have said)
ps… I have been following Thailand military/royalist dictatorship-constrained democracy and have had to think through these fundamental issues … it would have been terrible for Thailand if Indonesia had reverted toward the military controlled state again!!!!
Open Letter Condemning the Thai Constitution
Meanwhile the usual disgusting class war oppression is waged by the phu yai against the phu noi : http://www.nationmultimedia.com/national/Hua-Hin-vendors-plead-for-leniency-30240895.html
Did Indonesians fluke it?
Perhaps it’s not so much that the Indonesian voters didn’t realise that “July’s election was a referendum on an authoritarian reversal” – but that a lot of them do not share that assessment.
This could be because they have more faith in the democratic institutions of Indonesia & voters capacity in voting the undesirables out of their office, it could also be because the idea that Indonesia is “too democratic” actually resonates with many voters. I don’t mean that the voters do not “like democracy” as the survey data suggest; as the pointed out in other comments, this could be because many Indonesian voters have a different opinion about how democracy should be carried out. During the campaign period, Prabowo had consistently conflated issues caused by decentralisation with democratisation and presented them as inevitable results of Indonesia democratising too quickly. Arguably problems such as systemic corruptions and government inefficiency have more to do with the administrative fragementation than democratisation per se, but thanks to the successful framing of Prabowo, I suspect many voters bought into his portrayal. In this sense, the people who voted for Prabowo due to this reason most likely saw themselves as voting against problems caused by decentralisation and did not see themselves as anti-democratic. This is just a speculation of course. More data is needed.
Did Indonesians fluke it?
In my humble opinion, satisfaction about democracy is a bad proxy to explain how the presidential votes becomes as it is. We, average Indonesians, rarely really talk about the demokrasi (as a word) when we talk about politics among ourselves. Nor we really talk about complicated concepts such as authoritarianism or authoritarian reversal. For us Indonesian average joe’s in the village this election is about prices of goods, who is more handsome/charming, and who is (potentially) better at scolding local officials. These are things that we talk about week in-week out in our rondas, arisans, rembugans, gotong royongs, syukurans etc.
It is in these occasions as well that democratic process in Indonesia are really at work. This is where exchanges of ideas and debates are taking place. This is where the real campaigning is. Ultimately, this where the election was won and lost. I truly believe controlling the influence within these forums is key.
Foreign analysts tend to view democracy as an individual matter. It is not. In Indonesia, it is more about group consensus. This explains why Prabowo still manages to gain 47% of votes is because of well coordinated grass root canvassing through political party influences spread out in every RT and RW. It also explains why Jokowi manages to rebound his electability in the last two weeks of the campaigning period. It is common knowledge that Jokowi’s camp (both volunteers and party influence)only manages to step their act in grass root campaigning in the last two weeks with a little amunition help from Prabowo’s camp (Fahri’s Sinting and Hatta’s Kalpataru).
In Indonesia, I believe you guys just have to think simpler or simply just observe. In such, the notion by foreign analysts about Indonesia democracy being a fluke, that’s the fluke.
Of pragmatism and politics
Tocharian, I have no argument with what you say, my main point was that ASEAN has had a very strong non-engagement policy, it was like a shield which allowed for all sorts of atrocities. They would not support Suu Kyi back then against the junta. I do not doubt that you know what you are talking about re China, but can you not engage/ignore a super power? Global politics seems to be based on engagement until a crisis happens. Only those with vested interest in the elite have a say in this game, and they have made a mess.