Excellent post Sceptic, let’s see whether Mr not Dissapointed is able to override his life long programming and attribute a portion of the blame to HMK who was clearly in full public support of the strategy.
Unfortunately, due to his programming which commenced from birth, I expect that applying such logical and balanced analysis to this topic and anything else to do with the most powerful institution in Thailand will be impossible for him and this fact explains a great many of Thailand’s current problems.
This reconstruction is very brilliant and enlightening. The puzzle of the riots in the 1998, including the fundamental difference between the student movement against the oppression of the new order and the riot against the Chinese community, is very well composed and explained.
What amazes me is to see the students of the 1998, who were fighting against Suharto at that time, supporting now Prabowo. There’s no contradiction if you consider that history is changing and the political context is different. The same about the NEP model proposed by Prabowo. It finds his inspiration not from a racist anti-Chinese attitude but from a basic principle of civilisation: that inequality, the distance between rich & poor, should be reduced. This is, I believe, in the long period, one of the main challenges for the future of Indonesia.
Yeah right. Please. The only “education” Prabowo got from his father in law more than 15 years ago is.. Money buy anything and anyone in Indonesia. How could anyone support crazed monkey like prabowo is beyond me. But as I am an Indonesian, i would pray for Jokowi win. Cause i shudder what would happen if the Monkey win the election.
These are truly colorful photos, covering both sides of candidates. But one thing I believe I should note is that the event Mr. Widodo attended in National Monument (Monas) should never be considered a campaign since it’s declared a neutral zone. Currently-acting Governor of DKI Jakarta, Mr. Purnama, even showed his anger knowing that Monas used for campaign.
But after all what both photographer and filmmaker should be appreciated and I hope people in Australia have their own fair opinion on their neighboring country’s future president.
Jaidee wrote “because if you cant see how poorly you are presenting your case, then there’s something seriously wrong with what is taught in Thai schools.”
Well Jaidee, sorry to disappoint you, but someone like “notdisappointed” has no need for coherent arguments… tanks, guns and the like makes for a very strong argument.
I do not subscribe to the “Pen is mightier than the sword” bull.
Has anyone @NM – or this Conference – found an internet link to this organisation : “The Organisation of Free Thais for Human Rights and Democracy” – i.e. the supposed Red Shirt – or is it red squirt ? – “government in exile” ? I’d simply be interested, for research purposes only.
According to the National Education Act of 1999 amended in 2002 (in Thailand): “Education shall aim at the full development of the Thai people in all aspects: physical and mental health; intellect; knowledge; morality; integrity; and desirable way of life so as to be able to live happily with other people. The learning process shall aim at inculcating sound awareness of politics; democratic system of government under constitutional monarchy; ability to protect and promote their rights, responsibilities, freedom, respect of the rule of law, equality, and human dignity; pride in Thai history; ability to protect public and national interests; promotion of religion, art, national culture, sports, local wisdom, Thai wisdom and universal knowledge; inculcating ability to preserve natural resources and the environment; ability to earn a living; self-reliance; creativity; acquiring thirst for knowledge and capability of self-learning on a continuous basis”.
Sad that the Thai education system have yet mostly achived those only: pride in Thai identity; ability to protect national interests, promotion of religion and Thai wisdom (maybe since free world cup for all I should add sport).
Good point Krajongpa. Maybe Yingluck could mention the GT200 scam case as an ‘extenuating circumstance’ to lessen her sentence.
DSI’s Tarit was well-versed on this GT200 case, I am told. And the ex-chief of DSI Tarit should be compelled to reveal every politician, military officer, police generals and various other government officials who were ‘criminally negligent’ or ‘criminally profitted’ from the scam.
So, Vichai, Do you think criminal negligence on the GT 200 scam is next up? Who would the target be and would they have a “credible defense”?
The fact is that if criminal negligence was applied using the same standard across the board, the jails would be full of politicians, civil servants and soldiers.
The figure of 3,000 deaths attributed to the War on Drugs seems to have been exaggerated over time by rumour and the Bangkok gossip mill. I believe the original figure quoted – and the only verifiable source of information of any kind – was that there were 2,275 deaths. This was the figure publicised by Human Rights Watch who got it from Agence France Press. Where did AFP get it? The Royal Thai Police! But the figure the police gave out was for all homicides in Thailand over the three-month period. As you point out, homicides in Thailand in the period before the War on Drugs was initiated were already running at between 400-450 per month, so it would appear that any figure notionally attributable to the War on Drugs itself could well be less than 1,000. Still very bad but significantly different statistically. How many of these were directly attributable to police action and not the action of drug traders themselves remains an unknown, simply because no figures are available.
There is an ironic footnote to the way this information has been handled. As reported by The Economist one of the points made by Kanit’s Truth and Reconciliation Commission was that more than half of those killed during the War on Drugs had no connection whatever with the trade. The inference has been drawn that they were illegally killed under cover of the WoD. This of course is yet more bunkum; the reference is surely to the assumption that with homicides already running at 400+ a month, many recorded homicides were simply unconnected in any way with the War on Drugs.
Incidentally, am I right in thinking that the term “judicial killing” that is frequently used on English language websites is actually a mistranslation of the Thai р╕зр╕┤р╕кр╕▓р╕бр╕▒р╕Нр╕Жр╕▓р╕Хр╕Бр╕гр╕гр╕б, which is better rendered as “justifiable homicide”? The latter surely has rather less pejorative connotations.
notdisappointed (#39). The answer to your rhetorical questions is:- The bad stuff is all there in the history books of civilised countries.
That is completely different from Thailand, ruled for centuries by lying Mafiosi in fancy dress. The very people who conspired to throw the country into chaos for the last year are ruling it again, lying to the people that they are bringers of order and justice. Then there are the lies about restoring democracy, when they are destroying what little of it had taken root. No wonder their slippery spokesmen have so little credibility here, or anywhere else out of range of the guns.
“Look at the holes and lies in your own histories before you think to post hysterics concerning other countries history.”
To paraphrase Shakespeare (himself no stranger to toeing the Tudor line when the Lord Chamberlain insisted): “A miss, a very palpable miss”.
Aside from the lamentable “hysterics” giveaway, you betray your own ignorance of what’s taught (and how) elsewhere. If you really can’t resist trying the always lame never-mind-this-what-about-that (aka “Look – a squirrel”) gambit, at least make some effort to pick an example that might stand up to even cursory examination.
I can’t speak about US text books but, as someone who studied history at a British university and who later taught the subject in British schools, I can confirm that, while there may continue to be room for argument, all the subjects you mention are generally taught from a point of view that is the antithesis of the previous “patriotic” approach to which, as a child, I was subjected. Children are taught about, for instance, the African slave trade and the central role in it played by Britain, the opium wars, colonial atrocities in India and elsewhere, the Irish famine and countless other horrors. Indeed, the teaching of history in British schools and universities is far from being nationalistic, although it must be admitted that some in the Conservative Party would like to make it more so!
I could wish the same was true of Thailand, where children appear to learn very little at all about anything outside their country and its monarchy and religion – and that always presented in a highly flattering light. Is this just a necessary part of nation-building in a country that is still socially and politically underdeveloped? Maybe.
The term “War on Dugs” was first used in a Thai context in a birthday speech on 5th December 2002, in which the Prime Minister was urged to tackle “the methamphetamine problem” head on. I have often wondered whether or not the speaker on that occasion was moved by the discovery that it had actually begun to infect his own family.
Certainly the pressure to deal with the problem so ruthlessly came from the Palace, both directly from HMK himself in his speeches and through the Privy Council. Privy Councillor Phichit Kunlawanit went so far as to state that “if we execute 60,000 the land will rise and our descendants will escape bad karma”!
Public opinion too was massively behind the campaign. As Pasuk and Baker (“Thaksin” Ch.5, Managing Society. Waging War on Drugs) have shown, “The war on drugs was a response to a strong social demand. Despite the protests of activists the campaign had been highly popular. At the height of the [well publicised] killing in late February, the Suan Dusit poll of a ten-thousand person sample showed 90% in favour of the campaign.(The Nation, 24 Feb. 2003). In a smaller Rangsit Poll taken at the same time, over two-thirds explicitly urged the government to continue with its violent approach. Even a survey of monks found 70% in favour (Jaran 2003)”
Exactly one year after he had initiated the campaign, HMK stated: “Victory in the war on drugs is good. They may blame the crackdown for more than 2,500 deaths, but this is a small price to pay. If the prime minister failed to curb [the drug trade], over the years the number of deaths would easily surpass this toll.”
Did this make it right? Of course not, but it does go a long way toward explaining the circumstances of the time. As we have seen daily in the news this week, the concept of human rights is not exactly deeply embedded in the Thai consciousness, and certainly Thaksin was no exception to the rule! And yet in the five years between the 2006 coup and Yingluck’s victory, the very considerable efforts of first the junta and then the Abhisit government failed to find or publicize any conclusive evidence at all linking Thaksin or members of his government to any extrajudicial killings. Why? I am sure it was not for want of trying!
I do wonder whether, in pursuing this particular line of attack here at NM, notdisappointed is taking his cue from S P Somtow, who suggested that to attack Thaksin over the issue of human rights could be “internationally bankable”. The problem with this cynically selective approach is that unfortunately it says at least as much about the moral values of Thai society as a whole and the network monarchy in particular as it does about Thaksin himself.
notdissapointed linked earlier to a blog by Tony Cartalucci, whose hyperbole may provide entertainment but generally contributes little to any serious discussion. For a longer, detailed, balanced and much more thoughtful account I can certainly recommend http://assassinationthaksin.wordpress.com/2013/03/20/thaksins-war-on-drugs
The Problem is Thais do not know and are not permitted to laern about our modern history. Have you or any of your associated been taught about the 12 coups committed after becoming a partially democratic country. Have student learnt about Thailand’s contribution to the Japanese Imperial Army’s war effosrt in Burma and China as well as to the U.S. in Vietnam. And if you want to went further into the Indochinese history, are you willing to recognize what Siam did to Laos during the reign of King Rama III.
But seriously, you haven’t bothered to check your premises. You should acquaint yourself with the history books by a certain Mr. Howard Zinn. They are widely read, even in schools. Controversial? Absolutely, but widely read none the less.
But you talk about events that are over centuries in the past. More to the point within today’s issues, the current transgressions of the USA that might be similar to your examples, they are all very controversial, debated, and very contentious.
But there is no law with the number 112 which preventing debate. Not 100%, as they put away Chelsae Manning and Snowden languishes in the USSR. But Glenn Greenwald walks free, and his view are widely publicized in the American media. Snowden is interviewed by the media and people hear his words.
The junta has just made any reporting in the Thai press of Free Thai movement illegal. Wise men, these boys?
Manning did a great service to freedom, but he was military. Under the law, he is handled differently. That is the way it is. But I would love to see Snowden get acquitted by a jury. There would be nothing the government could do about it. Look at Mr. Daniel Ellsberg vs. the US.
But that is the rub. Democracy is not utopia. It never was. Never will be. Nobody has the last word. As it should be.
But your overlords in Thailand think Thai is special. Worship king, everything good. Look at Prayuth. He thinks he is entitled to have the last word. George Orwell, eat your heart out.
Back to Manning, @notdisappointed, have the Wikileaks regarding Thailand from Manning changed your viewpoint? Have you bothered to read them?
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Seven questions for Thailand’s military
Excellent post Sceptic, let’s see whether Mr not Dissapointed is able to override his life long programming and attribute a portion of the blame to HMK who was clearly in full public support of the strategy.
Unfortunately, due to his programming which commenced from birth, I expect that applying such logical and balanced analysis to this topic and anything else to do with the most powerful institution in Thailand will be impossible for him and this fact explains a great many of Thailand’s current problems.
Seven questions for Thailand’s military
Well said, Sceptic. It makes me wonder if cherries group in LOS. There seems to be a lot of cherry pickers.
Prabowo and his anti-Chinese past?
This reconstruction is very brilliant and enlightening. The puzzle of the riots in the 1998, including the fundamental difference between the student movement against the oppression of the new order and the riot against the Chinese community, is very well composed and explained.
What amazes me is to see the students of the 1998, who were fighting against Suharto at that time, supporting now Prabowo. There’s no contradiction if you consider that history is changing and the political context is different. The same about the NEP model proposed by Prabowo. It finds his inspiration not from a racist anti-Chinese attitude but from a basic principle of civilisation: that inequality, the distance between rich & poor, should be reduced. This is, I believe, in the long period, one of the main challenges for the future of Indonesia.
Indonesia’s democracy is in danger
Yeah right. Please. The only “education” Prabowo got from his father in law more than 15 years ago is.. Money buy anything and anyone in Indonesia. How could anyone support crazed monkey like prabowo is beyond me. But as I am an Indonesian, i would pray for Jokowi win. Cause i shudder what would happen if the Monkey win the election.
One Sunday in Jakarta
These are truly colorful photos, covering both sides of candidates. But one thing I believe I should note is that the event Mr. Widodo attended in National Monument (Monas) should never be considered a campaign since it’s declared a neutral zone. Currently-acting Governor of DKI Jakarta, Mr. Purnama, even showed his anger knowing that Monas used for campaign.
But after all what both photographer and filmmaker should be appreciated and I hope people in Australia have their own fair opinion on their neighboring country’s future president.
ANU event on Thai coup
Jaidee wrote “because if you cant see how poorly you are presenting your case, then there’s something seriously wrong with what is taught in Thai schools.”
Well Jaidee, sorry to disappoint you, but someone like “notdisappointed” has no need for coherent arguments… tanks, guns and the like makes for a very strong argument.
I do not subscribe to the “Pen is mightier than the sword” bull.
ANU event on Thai coup
Has anyone @NM – or this Conference – found an internet link to this organisation : “The Organisation of Free Thais for Human Rights and Democracy” – i.e. the supposed Red Shirt – or is it red squirt ? – “government in exile” ? I’d simply be interested, for research purposes only.
Thorns of the Thai rose
According to the National Education Act of 1999 amended in 2002 (in Thailand): “Education shall aim at the full development of the Thai people in all aspects: physical and mental health; intellect; knowledge; morality; integrity; and desirable way of life so as to be able to live happily with other people. The learning process shall aim at inculcating sound awareness of politics; democratic system of government under constitutional monarchy; ability to protect and promote their rights, responsibilities, freedom, respect of the rule of law, equality, and human dignity; pride in Thai history; ability to protect public and national interests; promotion of religion, art, national culture, sports, local wisdom, Thai wisdom and universal knowledge; inculcating ability to preserve natural resources and the environment; ability to earn a living; self-reliance; creativity; acquiring thirst for knowledge and capability of self-learning on a continuous basis”.
Sad that the Thai education system have yet mostly achived those only: pride in Thai identity; ability to protect national interests, promotion of religion and Thai wisdom (maybe since free world cup for all I should add sport).
ANU event on Thai coup
Good point Krajongpa. Maybe Yingluck could mention the GT200 scam case as an ‘extenuating circumstance’ to lessen her sentence.
DSI’s Tarit was well-versed on this GT200 case, I am told. And the ex-chief of DSI Tarit should be compelled to reveal every politician, military officer, police generals and various other government officials who were ‘criminally negligent’ or ‘criminally profitted’ from the scam.
ANU event on Thai coup
So, Vichai, Do you think criminal negligence on the GT 200 scam is next up? Who would the target be and would they have a “credible defense”?
The fact is that if criminal negligence was applied using the same standard across the board, the jails would be full of politicians, civil servants and soldiers.
But the law has only been used that way once.
Seven questions for Thailand’s military
“She”? Does Chris no something about notdisappointed’s ID that we don’t? i think we should be told!
Seven questions for Thailand’s military
The figure of 3,000 deaths attributed to the War on Drugs seems to have been exaggerated over time by rumour and the Bangkok gossip mill. I believe the original figure quoted – and the only verifiable source of information of any kind – was that there were 2,275 deaths. This was the figure publicised by Human Rights Watch who got it from Agence France Press. Where did AFP get it? The Royal Thai Police! But the figure the police gave out was for all homicides in Thailand over the three-month period. As you point out, homicides in Thailand in the period before the War on Drugs was initiated were already running at between 400-450 per month, so it would appear that any figure notionally attributable to the War on Drugs itself could well be less than 1,000. Still very bad but significantly different statistically. How many of these were directly attributable to police action and not the action of drug traders themselves remains an unknown, simply because no figures are available.
There is an ironic footnote to the way this information has been handled. As reported by The Economist one of the points made by Kanit’s Truth and Reconciliation Commission was that more than half of those killed during the War on Drugs had no connection whatever with the trade. The inference has been drawn that they were illegally killed under cover of the WoD. This of course is yet more bunkum; the reference is surely to the assumption that with homicides already running at 400+ a month, many recorded homicides were simply unconnected in any way with the War on Drugs.
Incidentally, am I right in thinking that the term “judicial killing” that is frequently used on English language websites is actually a mistranslation of the Thai р╕зр╕┤р╕кр╕▓р╕бр╕▒р╕Нр╕Жр╕▓р╕Хр╕Бр╕гр╕гр╕б, which is better rendered as “justifiable homicide”? The latter surely has rather less pejorative connotations.
Thorns of the Thai rose
notdisappointed (#39). The answer to your rhetorical questions is:- The bad stuff is all there in the history books of civilised countries.
That is completely different from Thailand, ruled for centuries by lying Mafiosi in fancy dress. The very people who conspired to throw the country into chaos for the last year are ruling it again, lying to the people that they are bringers of order and justice. Then there are the lies about restoring democracy, when they are destroying what little of it had taken root. No wonder their slippery spokesmen have so little credibility here, or anywhere else out of range of the guns.
Thorns of the Thai rose
“Look at the holes and lies in your own histories before you think to post hysterics concerning other countries history.”
To paraphrase Shakespeare (himself no stranger to toeing the Tudor line when the Lord Chamberlain insisted): “A miss, a very palpable miss”.
Aside from the lamentable “hysterics” giveaway, you betray your own ignorance of what’s taught (and how) elsewhere. If you really can’t resist trying the always lame never-mind-this-what-about-that (aka “Look – a squirrel”) gambit, at least make some effort to pick an example that might stand up to even cursory examination.
ANU event on Thai coup
It might help if notdisappointed bothered to review what he/she wrote in March 2010 – rather than just reproduce it by the shovelfull here at NM.
Thorns of the Thai rose
I can’t speak about US text books but, as someone who studied history at a British university and who later taught the subject in British schools, I can confirm that, while there may continue to be room for argument, all the subjects you mention are generally taught from a point of view that is the antithesis of the previous “patriotic” approach to which, as a child, I was subjected. Children are taught about, for instance, the African slave trade and the central role in it played by Britain, the opium wars, colonial atrocities in India and elsewhere, the Irish famine and countless other horrors. Indeed, the teaching of history in British schools and universities is far from being nationalistic, although it must be admitted that some in the Conservative Party would like to make it more so!
I could wish the same was true of Thailand, where children appear to learn very little at all about anything outside their country and its monarchy and religion – and that always presented in a highly flattering light. Is this just a necessary part of nation-building in a country that is still socially and politically underdeveloped? Maybe.
Seven questions for Thailand’s military
The term “War on Dugs” was first used in a Thai context in a birthday speech on 5th December 2002, in which the Prime Minister was urged to tackle “the methamphetamine problem” head on. I have often wondered whether or not the speaker on that occasion was moved by the discovery that it had actually begun to infect his own family.
Certainly the pressure to deal with the problem so ruthlessly came from the Palace, both directly from HMK himself in his speeches and through the Privy Council. Privy Councillor Phichit Kunlawanit went so far as to state that “if we execute 60,000 the land will rise and our descendants will escape bad karma”!
Public opinion too was massively behind the campaign. As Pasuk and Baker (“Thaksin” Ch.5, Managing Society. Waging War on Drugs) have shown, “The war on drugs was a response to a strong social demand. Despite the protests of activists the campaign had been highly popular. At the height of the [well publicised] killing in late February, the Suan Dusit poll of a ten-thousand person sample showed 90% in favour of the campaign.(The Nation, 24 Feb. 2003). In a smaller Rangsit Poll taken at the same time, over two-thirds explicitly urged the government to continue with its violent approach. Even a survey of monks found 70% in favour (Jaran 2003)”
Exactly one year after he had initiated the campaign, HMK stated: “Victory in the war on drugs is good. They may blame the crackdown for more than 2,500 deaths, but this is a small price to pay. If the prime minister failed to curb [the drug trade], over the years the number of deaths would easily surpass this toll.”
Did this make it right? Of course not, but it does go a long way toward explaining the circumstances of the time. As we have seen daily in the news this week, the concept of human rights is not exactly deeply embedded in the Thai consciousness, and certainly Thaksin was no exception to the rule! And yet in the five years between the 2006 coup and Yingluck’s victory, the very considerable efforts of first the junta and then the Abhisit government failed to find or publicize any conclusive evidence at all linking Thaksin or members of his government to any extrajudicial killings. Why? I am sure it was not for want of trying!
I do wonder whether, in pursuing this particular line of attack here at NM, notdisappointed is taking his cue from S P Somtow, who suggested that to attack Thaksin over the issue of human rights could be “internationally bankable”. The problem with this cynically selective approach is that unfortunately it says at least as much about the moral values of Thai society as a whole and the network monarchy in particular as it does about Thaksin himself.
notdissapointed linked earlier to a blog by Tony Cartalucci, whose hyperbole may provide entertainment but generally contributes little to any serious discussion. For a longer, detailed, balanced and much more thoughtful account I can certainly recommend http://assassinationthaksin.wordpress.com/2013/03/20/thaksins-war-on-drugs
Thorns of the Thai rose
The Problem is Thais do not know and are not permitted to laern about our modern history. Have you or any of your associated been taught about the 12 coups committed after becoming a partially democratic country. Have student learnt about Thailand’s contribution to the Japanese Imperial Army’s war effosrt in Burma and China as well as to the U.S. in Vietnam. And if you want to went further into the Indochinese history, are you willing to recognize what Siam did to Laos during the reign of King Rama III.
Seven questions for Thailand’s military
Yes Sven, very perceptive.
Thorns of the Thai rose
I resemble that comment.
But seriously, you haven’t bothered to check your premises. You should acquaint yourself with the history books by a certain Mr. Howard Zinn. They are widely read, even in schools. Controversial? Absolutely, but widely read none the less.
But you talk about events that are over centuries in the past. More to the point within today’s issues, the current transgressions of the USA that might be similar to your examples, they are all very controversial, debated, and very contentious.
But there is no law with the number 112 which preventing debate. Not 100%, as they put away Chelsae Manning and Snowden languishes in the USSR. But Glenn Greenwald walks free, and his view are widely publicized in the American media. Snowden is interviewed by the media and people hear his words.
The junta has just made any reporting in the Thai press of Free Thai movement illegal. Wise men, these boys?
Manning did a great service to freedom, but he was military. Under the law, he is handled differently. That is the way it is. But I would love to see Snowden get acquitted by a jury. There would be nothing the government could do about it. Look at Mr. Daniel Ellsberg vs. the US.
But that is the rub. Democracy is not utopia. It never was. Never will be. Nobody has the last word. As it should be.
But your overlords in Thailand think Thai is special. Worship king, everything good. Look at Prayuth. He thinks he is entitled to have the last word. George Orwell, eat your heart out.
Back to Manning, @notdisappointed, have the Wikileaks regarding Thailand from Manning changed your viewpoint? Have you bothered to read them?
.