And you will have to show us another country (at any time in history), where the supposed tyrant/dictator/autocrat is confronted with an opposition that has control over most of the judiciary, has most of the military sympathetic to it’s cause and has at least part of the police force sitting on the fence, a country where laws are constantly rewritten (or if you want to reinterpreted with great imagination), to suit the needs of the opposing elite (which controls most of the country’s wealth) and where even the head of state seem to lean more to the opposing camp.
The gap between armchair academic analysis and reality on the ground is always large, and it gets even larger in direct proportion to the opacity and disingenuousness of the language used in, and theoretical foundations for, that academic analysis. This applies as much to Thailand as to anywhere else. Were Mao Zedong to have ruled Thailand, the rich elite in Thailand would have quickly found themselves ‘disenfranchised.’
This is a proxy term used by those in academia to indicate ideological preference, without having to do so conspicuously.
As I have mentioned earlier, those all-consumed with the Thai middle-class somehow
‘disenfranchising’ poorer Thais (yet, multi-billionaire Thaksin inc., is given a pass, because somehow Thaksin inc. is a ‘poor man’s rich saviour’), yet non-Malaysian (and some Malaysian) observers of Malaysia’s predominantly ethnic Chinese middle-class don’t talk of ‘disenfranchisement’, but only of ‘how hard the Malaysian Chinese worked to get where they are,’ the inference being that Thai middle-class people in Bangkok, many of whom are Sino-Thais, achieved success sans hard work unlike their counterparts in Penang or Kuala Lumpur, and thus possibly some radical Malay complaints against Chinese-Malaysian middle-class ‘disenfranchisement’ of poorer Malays would also follow ‘logically’ according to the same (entirely false) premise assigned to middle-class Thais in Bangkok, and their supposed engendering of ‘disenfranchisement’
in Thailand. One can then only deduce that these people must be incredibly vain and selfish and evil, more than their peers elsewhere in Asia, without actually having any empirical (or non-empirical) evidence to support such fanciful interpretations.
It looks to me as if the democrats are abdicating from their role as a national party; by the time the dust settles on this mad escapade they will at best be reduced to their southern stronghold with a smattering of other seats.
If the election goes ahead as scheduled they wont have a single seat in the next parliament.
Suthep and the dems are well on route to a spectacular self destruction and it will require quite a bit of ‘external support’ to save them from utter annihilation; as power grabs go it seems one of the most incompetent and muddled in thai history.
I just cant see the point of any of this; thaksin’s greedy and arrogant government has been given a reprieve just when it was falling apart; with enemies like suthep who needs friends.
On top of that he has perverted the aspirations of the anti government protestors and made fools of them.
Finally, the agreement to the etiology of quagmires in Myanmar:
1) Continual colonial legacy.
2) Policy dictated by ever shifting west useless careless policy:
a) !ndependence -1962= West Cold War Policy
b) 1962-1988 Ne WIn/BSPP economically disastrous era = Let Ne WIn be “enigmatic Ne Win:, West Laissez-faire policy as long as “Heroine” control and anti communism maintained.
c) 1988-present SPDC era = Ever changing west defined requirement from democracy to HR as this article justifying Muslin Kalar plight as the only pressing quagmire.
If these quagmires are to be addressed properly:
1) The west need to recognize the history.
2) Address in massive help with ROL.
instead of divisive policy such as proclaiming one ethnic population plight at the expense of the well being of the whole Myanmar citizenry.
“I told you once that I was searching for the nature of evil. I think I’ve come close to defining it: a lack of empathy. It’s the one characteristic that connects all the defendants: a genuine incapacity to feel with their fellow man. Evil, I think, is the absence of empathy.” – Dr. Gustav M. Gilbert, 1946, a psychologist assigned by the U.S. Army to study the minds and motivations of the Nazi defendants at the Nuremberg tribunals
Following is extracts from Ray Barwarchi’s 2012-July article from “India America Today.”
No matter what the reasons for the change and no matter what direction the government ultimately takes, there is another source of unrest in Myanmar. This impending conflict will also directly involve India and Bangladesh and is essentially unavoidable. This conflict will be initiated neither by the clash of armies nor ideologies. Rather, this conflict will be initiated by nature. As a by-product of climate change sea levels are slowly rising. The rate at which sea levels are rising varies depending on various assumptions but the overall trend is indisputable. Even the most conservative estimates of rising sea levels indicate that Bangladesh will be underwater by 2050. Other projections put the time as soon as 2025.
What then? What happens to the more than 150 million people of Bangladesh? More importantly, where do they go? If simply moving into India were the answer then Bangladesh likely would not exist in the first place. Moving into Myanmar however, seems even more implausible. Despite the aforementioned political reforms in Myanmar, one area where matters have not improved and may have even worsened is the treatment of the Muslim minority in the mostly Buddhist country. The Muslim minority, mostly of South Asian descent, are the targets of open discrimination and marginalization. According to a report on Reuters News Service, the Rohingya, as they are known, are denied citizenship and are forced to live as refugees within their own nation. Given their treatment, what is the likelihood that Myanmar will welcome millions of more Muslims?
The conflict is not desired, it is inevitable. The previous solution of segregation by religious affiliation cannot continue. More than a 150 million people are going to be displaced at some point over the next thirty years into areas where they are neither wanted nor want to go. Something has to give and it will affect the whole region.
You have mentioned it twice now, and I am having trouble making sense as to why you think the man’s occupation has anything to do with his claim that he was accused of being a red shirt spy. According to his testimony, he was found with a red shirt and a membership card on him, which precipitated the beating. Can you explain to us how his occupation is in any way relevant??
Some group here is always trying to claim that some other group is trying to ‘disenfranchise’ it. And I suppose you could say (that in some sense)they usually are. I feel compelled to consider exactly what it is the various local color-coded succession factions are trying to disenfranchise each other from here. There really isn’t much evidence that a decentralized democracy exists here, has ever existed, or will likely ever exist. So perhaps ‘disenfranchisement’ threatens little more than withdrawal of the right to enjoy being co-opted as expenses-paid vote slaves at election time. One imagines that the various pundits, intellectuals and idealogues here on NM think that they are fighting over rather more noble principles. That would seem to indicate a considerable disconnect from the local reality. Most local voters probably understand quite well that they’re involved in something which isn’t even remotely democratic, but I suppose they find the electoral incentive somewhat more immediately useful than those short, medium and long-term political policies that almost never materialize – and which are rarely effective anyway. We’re not even really just talking about ‘feckless’ working people here – since many middle-class (and above) seem to spend most of their money as soon as they earn it. Which is perhaps why even the middle-class has to spout a load of (seemingly brainwashed)nonsense about their factional enemies trying to undermine a long intrenched (but never really quite apparent)’democracy’. We should perhaps pay little attention to such grandiose claims of an undermined democratic shangrila, from either side – since such din probably doesn’t amount to much more than paying the required respect to the mafia hand that so honorably feeds it every election time.
Pundits here mostly appear to think that a reboot (or three)will suffice. (Or more radically, a reformat, or a new machine.) My instinct is that Thailand is always going to be a lost cause for those outsiders who like to think about what it could be in thier imagination. Perhaps we really need to enjoy it for what it simply is. If we try to force it into some replica of our own political fantasy(trying to buy into something that doesn’t even work properly on our own turf), we’re just going to experience the inevitable failure as a personal disaster – whereas most locals will probably view the same as a fairly normal and predictable event in the normal scheme of things. Outsiders should perhaps disengage from the masochism of trying to help ‘solve’ a problem that is unsolvable. (Perhaps we shouldn’t even call it a ‘problem’.) Perhaps we would be better of accepting that this is what Thailand is, and will likely always be. The claims of disenfranchisement will continue, but perhaps there’s no real need for outsiders to heed the constant shrill complaint about democracy lost, which is such a constant component of the local political scene.
It will fix itself or it won’t – regardless of any outsider handwringing or incisive punditry. Well-intentioned outsiders often end up being co-opted as local politician’s stooges and apologists here anyway. Not that they would ever really admit it – even to themselves on those very occasional days of idealogue self-doubt.
This could be a useful medium of discussion if only the moderator would cease accepting Vichai’s comments. As has already been pointed out there are other places for him to vent his bile.
I commend the writer for his analogy of the Malaysian situation to the Spanish Inquisition. The facts are quite startling and and they are now staring directly at us. What is happening here is real and there is a lot that has not been published. To say that the country is run by political and religious bigots is an understatement. At a time when the country was about to explode into a religious feud, the leadership of the country could only afford to talk about the rise and fall of the price of ‘kangkung’. It speaks volumes about the person and his lack of it up there. Some of us may see this as a racist or religious war but I don’t see this as any of that. It is a means of maintaining political hegemony by using the race and religion card and anything else that can cause disharmony in the country. When there is disharmony in the country then there is a need for the government to step in and introduce legislation to curtail freedom of expression and movement. It happened in May 13, 1969 and we are on the verge of it happening again.
I respect all Malaysians regardless of their race, religion or political ideology. I have enjoyed beautiful years growing up in Malaysia where I have had no problems mixing with all races. In fact the good ol’ days are a thing of the past. Even as our children try to respect and love each other, religious and political bigots are sowing the seeds of hatred by creating an issue over no issue, like the “Allah’ case. Religion has always been a sensitive issue with any country and Malaysia is no different. Most people don’t read enough to know what is really happening and only get surface information. We all know that the greatest gift Malaysia is to the world is its true multi-ethnicity and multi-religiosity bringing with it its diverse and unique cultures, festivals and foods. No Malaysian in his/her right frame of mind would want top destroy this. However there are those who are hell bent on achieving control at all cost. They are the UNMO putras who only want to maintain their political hegemony forever. Race, religion, beliefs are only means to an end.
Even though the Christians have taken their appeal to the federal courts, they will not win the case because the government cannot and will not lose(except by the intervention of His Almighty). They must retain the seats in East Malaysia which at this present moment is the linchpin for the government in terms of maintaining majority seats and holding onto the government. This will not happen if the federal Courts rule in favour of the Christians in the use of the word “Allah”. We all know there is no issue but an issue has been created and the powers that be will go to great lengths to maintain control. All Malaysians should realise this and not allow anybody or party to dominate and regulate our thoughts and actions. Words are an expression of our thoughts and if we allow the an external force to control that we have nothing left for ourselves. I love this country, its multi-ethnicity and everything that it stands for but will not tolerate bigots of any types. I have hope that the good ol’ days of multi-cultural, multi-religious, muhibbah Malaysia will prevail again in the realms of a New Malaysia, till then my fellow Malaysians and sympathisers..
For goodness sake! There’s no pleasing some people. I think it is stretching a point to say that Palestinian refugees can “do pretty much what they please” in Thailand.
Of course I tidied up the grammar when writing down the interview but if you listen to the audio you will hear it is just one person.
The reason I used an anonymous name is as justified as Bailao using one.
I got a couple of pointers from LS Schwarz which were helpful for work on the ground. That’s all I was looking for.
Vichai N., There was a surplus of ghostly verbose in your comment. So, the “Ghost of Jit Phoomisak” has got a silly friend in you. A real pair, I might venture saying. You should meet up personally.
Surely there is something disastrously wrong with the logic (or is it il-logic?) here.
Seemingly cat got the tonges of unlimited number of most humane, liberal, righteous loud mouths, around here and around the world, in a slight chance there is something to say.
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Bangkok’s last Red Shirt fortress
I look forward to Vichai N comments it would be very boring it we all sat here agreeing with each other.
It’s all grist for the mill.
Bangkok’s last Red Shirt fortress
How true.. can’t see how his diatribe and nauseating repeats contributes anything.
Middle class rage threatens democracy
And you will have to show us another country (at any time in history), where the supposed tyrant/dictator/autocrat is confronted with an opposition that has control over most of the judiciary, has most of the military sympathetic to it’s cause and has at least part of the police force sitting on the fence, a country where laws are constantly rewritten (or if you want to reinterpreted with great imagination), to suit the needs of the opposing elite (which controls most of the country’s wealth) and where even the head of state seem to lean more to the opposing camp.
Middle class rage threatens democracy
The gap between armchair academic analysis and reality on the ground is always large, and it gets even larger in direct proportion to the opacity and disingenuousness of the language used in, and theoretical foundations for, that academic analysis. This applies as much to Thailand as to anywhere else. Were Mao Zedong to have ruled Thailand, the rich elite in Thailand would have quickly found themselves ‘disenfranchised.’
This is a proxy term used by those in academia to indicate ideological preference, without having to do so conspicuously.
As I have mentioned earlier, those all-consumed with the Thai middle-class somehow
‘disenfranchising’ poorer Thais (yet, multi-billionaire Thaksin inc., is given a pass, because somehow Thaksin inc. is a ‘poor man’s rich saviour’), yet non-Malaysian (and some Malaysian) observers of Malaysia’s predominantly ethnic Chinese middle-class don’t talk of ‘disenfranchisement’, but only of ‘how hard the Malaysian Chinese worked to get where they are,’ the inference being that Thai middle-class people in Bangkok, many of whom are Sino-Thais, achieved success sans hard work unlike their counterparts in Penang or Kuala Lumpur, and thus possibly some radical Malay complaints against Chinese-Malaysian middle-class ‘disenfranchisement’ of poorer Malays would also follow ‘logically’ according to the same (entirely false) premise assigned to middle-class Thais in Bangkok, and their supposed engendering of ‘disenfranchisement’
in Thailand. One can then only deduce that these people must be incredibly vain and selfish and evil, more than their peers elsewhere in Asia, without actually having any empirical (or non-empirical) evidence to support such fanciful interpretations.
Middle class rage threatens democracy
It looks to me as if the democrats are abdicating from their role as a national party; by the time the dust settles on this mad escapade they will at best be reduced to their southern stronghold with a smattering of other seats.
If the election goes ahead as scheduled they wont have a single seat in the next parliament.
Suthep and the dems are well on route to a spectacular self destruction and it will require quite a bit of ‘external support’ to save them from utter annihilation; as power grabs go it seems one of the most incompetent and muddled in thai history.
I just cant see the point of any of this; thaksin’s greedy and arrogant government has been given a reprieve just when it was falling apart; with enemies like suthep who needs friends.
On top of that he has perverted the aspirations of the anti government protestors and made fools of them.
Sleeping dogs
Finally, the agreement to the etiology of quagmires in Myanmar:
1) Continual colonial legacy.
2) Policy dictated by ever shifting west useless careless policy:
a) !ndependence -1962= West Cold War Policy
b) 1962-1988 Ne WIn/BSPP economically disastrous era = Let Ne WIn be “enigmatic Ne Win:, West Laissez-faire policy as long as “Heroine” control and anti communism maintained.
c) 1988-present SPDC era = Ever changing west defined requirement from democracy to HR as this article justifying Muslin Kalar plight as the only pressing quagmire.
If these quagmires are to be addressed properly:
1) The west need to recognize the history.
2) Address in massive help with ROL.
instead of divisive policy such as proclaiming one ethnic population plight at the expense of the well being of the whole Myanmar citizenry.
Bangkok’s last Red Shirt fortress
“I told you once that I was searching for the nature of evil. I think I’ve come close to defining it: a lack of empathy. It’s the one characteristic that connects all the defendants: a genuine incapacity to feel with their fellow man. Evil, I think, is the absence of empathy.” – Dr. Gustav M. Gilbert, 1946, a psychologist assigned by the U.S. Army to study the minds and motivations of the Nazi defendants at the Nuremberg tribunals
Sleeping dogs
Following is extracts from Ray Barwarchi’s 2012-July article from “India America Today.”
No matter what the reasons for the change and no matter what direction the government ultimately takes, there is another source of unrest in Myanmar. This impending conflict will also directly involve India and Bangladesh and is essentially unavoidable. This conflict will be initiated neither by the clash of armies nor ideologies. Rather, this conflict will be initiated by nature. As a by-product of climate change sea levels are slowly rising. The rate at which sea levels are rising varies depending on various assumptions but the overall trend is indisputable. Even the most conservative estimates of rising sea levels indicate that Bangladesh will be underwater by 2050. Other projections put the time as soon as 2025.
What then? What happens to the more than 150 million people of Bangladesh? More importantly, where do they go? If simply moving into India were the answer then Bangladesh likely would not exist in the first place. Moving into Myanmar however, seems even more implausible. Despite the aforementioned political reforms in Myanmar, one area where matters have not improved and may have even worsened is the treatment of the Muslim minority in the mostly Buddhist country. The Muslim minority, mostly of South Asian descent, are the targets of open discrimination and marginalization. According to a report on Reuters News Service, the Rohingya, as they are known, are denied citizenship and are forced to live as refugees within their own nation. Given their treatment, what is the likelihood that Myanmar will welcome millions of more Muslims?
The conflict is not desired, it is inevitable. The previous solution of segregation by religious affiliation cannot continue. More than a 150 million people are going to be displaced at some point over the next thirty years into areas where they are neither wanted nor want to go. Something has to give and it will affect the whole region.
http://www.indiaamericatoday.com/article/conflict-ahead-india-myanmar-drowning-bangladesh
Bangkok’s last Red Shirt fortress
You have mentioned it twice now, and I am having trouble making sense as to why you think the man’s occupation has anything to do with his claim that he was accused of being a red shirt spy. According to his testimony, he was found with a red shirt and a membership card on him, which precipitated the beating. Can you explain to us how his occupation is in any way relevant??
Middle class rage threatens democracy
Some group here is always trying to claim that some other group is trying to ‘disenfranchise’ it. And I suppose you could say (that in some sense)they usually are. I feel compelled to consider exactly what it is the various local color-coded succession factions are trying to disenfranchise each other from here. There really isn’t much evidence that a decentralized democracy exists here, has ever existed, or will likely ever exist. So perhaps ‘disenfranchisement’ threatens little more than withdrawal of the right to enjoy being co-opted as expenses-paid vote slaves at election time. One imagines that the various pundits, intellectuals and idealogues here on NM think that they are fighting over rather more noble principles. That would seem to indicate a considerable disconnect from the local reality. Most local voters probably understand quite well that they’re involved in something which isn’t even remotely democratic, but I suppose they find the electoral incentive somewhat more immediately useful than those short, medium and long-term political policies that almost never materialize – and which are rarely effective anyway. We’re not even really just talking about ‘feckless’ working people here – since many middle-class (and above) seem to spend most of their money as soon as they earn it. Which is perhaps why even the middle-class has to spout a load of (seemingly brainwashed)nonsense about their factional enemies trying to undermine a long intrenched (but never really quite apparent)’democracy’. We should perhaps pay little attention to such grandiose claims of an undermined democratic shangrila, from either side – since such din probably doesn’t amount to much more than paying the required respect to the mafia hand that so honorably feeds it every election time.
Pundits here mostly appear to think that a reboot (or three)will suffice. (Or more radically, a reformat, or a new machine.) My instinct is that Thailand is always going to be a lost cause for those outsiders who like to think about what it could be in thier imagination. Perhaps we really need to enjoy it for what it simply is. If we try to force it into some replica of our own political fantasy(trying to buy into something that doesn’t even work properly on our own turf), we’re just going to experience the inevitable failure as a personal disaster – whereas most locals will probably view the same as a fairly normal and predictable event in the normal scheme of things. Outsiders should perhaps disengage from the masochism of trying to help ‘solve’ a problem that is unsolvable. (Perhaps we shouldn’t even call it a ‘problem’.) Perhaps we would be better of accepting that this is what Thailand is, and will likely always be. The claims of disenfranchisement will continue, but perhaps there’s no real need for outsiders to heed the constant shrill complaint about democracy lost, which is such a constant component of the local political scene.
It will fix itself or it won’t – regardless of any outsider handwringing or incisive punditry. Well-intentioned outsiders often end up being co-opted as local politician’s stooges and apologists here anyway. Not that they would ever really admit it – even to themselves on those very occasional days of idealogue self-doubt.
Bangkok’s last Red Shirt fortress
New here, glad to see Nick here again
Bangkok’s last Red Shirt fortress
This could be a useful medium of discussion if only the moderator would cease accepting Vichai’s comments. As has already been pointed out there are other places for him to vent his bile.
Bangkok’s last Red Shirt fortress
Vichai N ‘What’s the point of the torture’
It’s a warning.
It says it is dangerous to be a Red Shirt. This is what happens to people in red.
This is normal behavior for Fascists.
Bangkok’s last Red Shirt fortress
The only hole in this story is you, Vichai.
A Malaysian Inquisition?
I commend the writer for his analogy of the Malaysian situation to the Spanish Inquisition. The facts are quite startling and and they are now staring directly at us. What is happening here is real and there is a lot that has not been published. To say that the country is run by political and religious bigots is an understatement. At a time when the country was about to explode into a religious feud, the leadership of the country could only afford to talk about the rise and fall of the price of ‘kangkung’. It speaks volumes about the person and his lack of it up there. Some of us may see this as a racist or religious war but I don’t see this as any of that. It is a means of maintaining political hegemony by using the race and religion card and anything else that can cause disharmony in the country. When there is disharmony in the country then there is a need for the government to step in and introduce legislation to curtail freedom of expression and movement. It happened in May 13, 1969 and we are on the verge of it happening again.
I respect all Malaysians regardless of their race, religion or political ideology. I have enjoyed beautiful years growing up in Malaysia where I have had no problems mixing with all races. In fact the good ol’ days are a thing of the past. Even as our children try to respect and love each other, religious and political bigots are sowing the seeds of hatred by creating an issue over no issue, like the “Allah’ case. Religion has always been a sensitive issue with any country and Malaysia is no different. Most people don’t read enough to know what is really happening and only get surface information. We all know that the greatest gift Malaysia is to the world is its true multi-ethnicity and multi-religiosity bringing with it its diverse and unique cultures, festivals and foods. No Malaysian in his/her right frame of mind would want top destroy this. However there are those who are hell bent on achieving control at all cost. They are the UNMO putras who only want to maintain their political hegemony forever. Race, religion, beliefs are only means to an end.
Even though the Christians have taken their appeal to the federal courts, they will not win the case because the government cannot and will not lose(except by the intervention of His Almighty). They must retain the seats in East Malaysia which at this present moment is the linchpin for the government in terms of maintaining majority seats and holding onto the government. This will not happen if the federal Courts rule in favour of the Christians in the use of the word “Allah”. We all know there is no issue but an issue has been created and the powers that be will go to great lengths to maintain control. All Malaysians should realise this and not allow anybody or party to dominate and regulate our thoughts and actions. Words are an expression of our thoughts and if we allow the an external force to control that we have nothing left for ourselves. I love this country, its multi-ethnicity and everything that it stands for but will not tolerate bigots of any types. I have hope that the good ol’ days of multi-cultural, multi-religious, muhibbah Malaysia will prevail again in the realms of a New Malaysia, till then my fellow Malaysians and sympathisers..
Interview with a Palestinian refugee in Thailand
To Peter Cohen and Biailo:
For goodness sake! There’s no pleasing some people. I think it is stretching a point to say that Palestinian refugees can “do pretty much what they please” in Thailand.
Of course I tidied up the grammar when writing down the interview but if you listen to the audio you will hear it is just one person.
The reason I used an anonymous name is as justified as Bailao using one.
I got a couple of pointers from LS Schwarz which were helpful for work on the ground. That’s all I was looking for.
Bangkok’s last Red Shirt fortress
” … On a personal note – i am appalled by your (Vichai N’s) quite obvious lack of compassion.” – Nick-N
I am a very logical person Nick-N. And your torture story just have too many holes in it.
Would you compassionately embrace a rotten fish Nick-N? Yes … maybe Nick-N would.
The shutdown: In honor of NN
Vichai N., There was a surplus of ghostly verbose in your comment. So, the “Ghost of Jit Phoomisak” has got a silly friend in you. A real pair, I might venture saying. You should meet up personally.
Sleeping dogs
Surely there is something disastrously wrong with the logic (or is it il-logic?) here.
Seemingly cat got the tonges of unlimited number of most humane, liberal, righteous loud mouths, around here and around the world, in a slight chance there is something to say.
Sleeping dogs
Clear and present danger. The generals can milk it for ever more. Thank heavens for the Tatmadaw!