Now that the mistaken amnesty has been ditched, presumably Abhisit and Suthep will be tried on the murder charges laid against them. That should surely provide the best forum to uncover what were the real sources of violence in April and May 2010. Of course, this being Thailand, it may not happen at all!
On a related point, Nidhi had an interesting column in Matichon yesterday, making the observation that the Chulalongkorn U. authorities seem more concerned about not letting Thaksin get off corruption charges but have nothing to say about bringing to justice the people who ordered the slaughter of 100 protesters and injuries to 1000s in 2010:
As much as Sam Byfied might try to project a fairy tale ending and the ‘ride into sun set’/NCD future, Ko Moe Aung #2.1 well described the continuation of all quagmire since colonial legacy plus useless careless policy of the west.
NGO IS NOT a panacea to real redemption by the West.
Diabetes, High blood pressure and associated Morbidity and Mortality exist within the Asian contact-poverty. ALMOST ALWAYS Nothing to do with ‘Western caloric excesses’ model. One should look at Thailand or more immediately Cambodia for High Salt intake model.
The real NCD are, drug addiction and prostitution. Both progress to CD, as well as unscrupulous manufacturer/vendors causing generational damage.
The NGO that truly wish to even begin to address poverty should start by living among the people. Instead of writing another proposal for NCD. Where the grant obtained only at best 30% ( average < !0%) go to benefit the true purpose.
You are right about Thaksin being a catalyst, but you also cant discount the decades of previous development that got rural people into a position into which they could make their voices heard.
The 1997 constitution did not require any reds or Thaksin for it to be promulgated did it?
There is an one-sided stridency on this site that mirrors many others that is hypocritical as it is irrational.
Is not time to stop pointing fingers and trying to make one side or the other solely to blame for Thailand’s problems, but to acknowledge that both have valid points and look for solutions to the issues at hand?
Coups are a symptom of the problem, not the problem itself, just as Thaksin is a symptom of the problem, getting rid of coups or Thaksin will not solve Thailand’s issues as a democracy and as a nation.
The current situation clearly demonstrates the short-comings of Thailand’s state of democracy or more aptly; democrazy.
What is the next step for Thailand to progress as a democratically and as a nation?
Surely it should be to make all politicians accountable for their actions and engage sincerely with their electorate, rather than make cynical calculations on what will benefit them in these games that they play amongst themselves using people as pawns.
In the UK there is a disillusionment with the political process, as eloquently espoused by Russell Brand on BBC’s hard talk, and it has received quite a bit of attention and sparked discusion.
There is definitely a weakness in electoral politics even in the developed world that is crying out for a change.
I am particularly taken with this proposed solution using NOTA as an option on ballot papers, where if NOTA comes first the election is held again, but this time with all new candidates. This is a revolutionary concept, but a revolution that works within the current democratic process, so is relatively easy to implement.
This inherently assures that elected representatives must engage directly with electorate or will find themselves tossed out. Now they cannot rely on apathy or their main political opponents being too unpalatable for their voters to support even if they find the candidate or that candidate’s political party almost as bad.
Once this issue is tackled then so much of Thailand’s other issues can be brought into rein as elected representatives represent the electorate rather that their own special interests.
Is it not logical that a democracy does not limit choices merely between candidates in an election? Surely in a real democracy the electorate should have the right to reject all the candidates put before them.
The UK petition for electoral reform is located here:
I encourage any UK based readers who find the concept appealing to sign the petition.
Surely something like this can be adapted to the Thai situation. Is it not extending the ability for the Thai electorate to make rational choices on who represents them?
I would love to see an academic, thai or foreign, bring this concept into thai political discussion. Its an idea that deserves serious academic discussion on its merits and drawbacks.
р╕бр╕╡р╕Др╕Щр╣Др╕Чр╕вр╕Чр╕╡р╣Ир╣Др╕бр╣Ир╕вр╕нр╕бр╕гр╕▒р╕Ър╕Хр╕зр╕▓р╕бр╕Ир╕гр╕┤р╕Зр╕нр╕вр╕╣р╣Ир╣Гр╕Щр╕Щр╕╡р╣Йр╣Ар╕вр╕нр╕░ р╣Др╕бр╣Ир╣Ар╕Ыр╣Зр╕Щр╕Ир╕│р╣Ар╕Ыр╣Зр╕Щр╕Хр╣Йр╕нр╕Зр╣Гр╕Кр╣Йр╕ар╕▓р╕йр╕нр╕▒р╕Зр╕Бр╕др╕йр╣Ар╕ер╕в р╕Вр╕нр╣Гр╕лр╣Йр╕Фр╕╣р╕ар╕▓р╕Юр╕Др╕Щр╕Чр╕╡р╣Ир╕бр╕▓р╕Ыр╕гр╕░р╕Чр╣Йр╕зр╕Зр╕Хр╕▓р╕бр╕кр╕╡р╕ер╕б р╕нр╣Вр╕ир╕Б р╕Лр╕┤ р╕зр╣Ир╕▓р╕Др╕╕р╕Ур╕Ир╣Ир╕▓р╕вр╣Гр╕лр╣Йр╣Ар╕Вр╕▓ 500 р╕Ър╕▓р╕Ч р╣Ар╕Вр╕▓р╕Ир╕░р╕бр╕▓р╕Бр╕▒р╕Щр╕лр╕гр╕╖р╕нр╣Ар╕Ыр╕ер╣Ир╕▓ р╕вр╕нр╕бр╕гр╕▒р╕Ър╕Др╕зр╕▓р╕бр╕Ир╕гр╕┤р╕Зр╣Ар╕Цр╕нр╕░р╕зр╣Ир╕▓р╣Гр╕Др╕гр╕бр╕▓р╣Ар╕Юр╕гр╕▓р╕░р╣Ар╕Зр╕┤р╕Щ р╕бр╕╡р╕Др╕ер╕┤р╕Ыр╣Ар╕кр╕╖р╣Йр╕нр╣Бр╕Фр╕Зр╣Ар╕Вр╣Йр╕▓р╕Др╕┤р╕зр╕гр╕▒р╕Ър╣Ар╕Зр╕┤р╕Щр╕Бр╕▒р╕Щр╣Ар╕вр╕нр╕░р╣Бр╕вр╕░р╣Гр╕Щ youtube р╕Щр╣Ир╕░ р╕гр╕Цр╕Чр╕╡р╣Ир╣Др╕Ыр╕гр╕▒р╕Ър╕Бр╣Зр╣Ар╕Ыр╣Зр╕Щр╕гр╕Цр╣Гр╕Щр╕гр╕▓р╕Кр╕Бр╕▓р╕г р╣Бр╕Цр╕бр╕бр╕╡р╕Хр╕│р╕гр╕зр╕Ир╣Др╕Ыр╕вр╕╖р╕Щр╕нр╕│р╕Щр╕зр╕вр╕Др╕зр╕▓р╕бр╕кр╕░р╕Фр╕зр╕Бр╣Гр╕лр╣Йр╕нр╕╡р╕Б р╕Чр╕▒р╣Йр╕Зр╕Чр╕╡р╣Ир╕бр╕▓р╕вр╕╖р╕Щр╕лр╣Йр╕▓р╕бр╕Др╕Щр╕Чр╕╡р╣Ир╕Ыр╕гр╕░р╕Чр╣Йр╕зр╕Зр╕Юр╕гр╕Ъ. р╣Бр╕вр╣Ир╕бр╕▓р╕Б
There are a lot of Thais who post there comments here. I don’t think you should hide yourself,so I write it in Thai then we can communicate clearly. A lot of pictures in the internet of the protestants from Silom, Asoke. Are you sure you can pay them to gathered there? While there are clips in youtube showed the Redshirts flocked to take their wages before being loaded into buses prepare by government officials (some vehicle show government badge on the bus side). Arriving in Bkk. with a warm welcome from police officers, whom threaten to use teargas with anti-amnesty bill protesters?
Suthep Thugsurban is trying to organise a national strike against the government on Wednesday, Thursday and Friday of this week. This is an opportunity for all proud Thais to counter his negative plans by putting an extra effort into whatever it is that they do. This may not completely counter the effects of his destructive call, but it will nevertheless make a clear statement of the belief that Thai people have in their country and in its democratic values.
“Whatever debate is going on among the reds re amnesty, one thing is for sure, they are not going to abandon PT if the alternative is the Democrats.”
The alternative is that they form their own party. Having recently moved from Don Muang after 13+ year to anothet supposed “hot bed” of Red Shirts, Udon Thani, I have spoken with many locals in both places – young and old. They are not really fans of PT and will say much the same about Thaksin (or worse), but they want change. UDD and whatever they want to call themselves have such weak leaders, who just continue the feudal system. They mouth “change”, but what they say is just more of the same, with another colour.
Sceptic says the Reds were peaceful and Vichai says they were violent. Then the more reason we get to the bottom of what was true and what were lies.
Every player except Thaksin are willing to submit themselves to a judicial inquiry about their roles that led to the tragedy of deaths maiming and arson
And the Red leaders who led and goaded their followers to violence and arson and some to their deaths had acquiesced to a whitewash because Thaksin had said so?
I asked a vendor who I patronize regularly at the normally bustling Klong Thom market on Saturday night – ‘why is it so deathly quiet here tonight? ‘
He answered plaintively “500 Baht – the Dems are paying protesters at Democracy Monument 500 Baht each per day”
I was there too. I spent several hours sitting and talking with the mostly middle-aged and very peaceable protestors. Nothing in their demeanour suggested that they would use violence. Were there hothead elements? Unfortunately there inevitably will be some in any so large a group passionately committed to a point of principle. But it is at least as likely that many of the incidents were the work of agents-provocateurs. As to the fire in Central World it is at least worth considering who benefited most from its burning and reconstruction..?
End of coup in Thai version of democracy? Thaksin may command house majority through populism schemes for many years to come, but his tarnish image as the most corrupt politician instigated by his opponents will always haunt him.
The networks will continue to use Democrat Party and Thaksin as proxies until both sides die down. When the day has finally arrived, a more democracy prevails and system of checks and balances really works, coups by military and judiciary will fade away, though little by little.
I spent some time at, around and outside the MTT gathering of Reds on Sunday. A few thoughts:
It was big. The BKK Post said 50K. That could well be low as the event area was packed, the area outside was busy and there were red shirts around other parts of MTT. I had a distant low angle view of the area similar to what the Thai media use to show the BKK yellow demos and this had far far more people than those demos even before dark. There is even now a dusk high angle shot that shows a good view on twitter although it misses other areas where people and guards were outside the main event but listening to speeches still.
The atmosphere did not seem particularly aggressive and the people were friendly. Although the speakers did rouse people later in the day.
A huge amount came by car or motorcycle with BKK plates. Some had to walk more than a km to get in. Many, probably most, were from BKK and surrounding provinces from conversations, observations. There were a fair number of middle class people in attendance too.
MTT itself seems to be a typical BKK suburb with very strong support for the reds. It was definitely a gathering on home turf. Then again the Dems are doing that in their central BKK stronghold.
Whatever debate is going on among the reds re amnesty, one thing is for sure, they are not going to abandon PT if the alternative is the Democrats. It was obvious that the common enemy will keep them united or at least until the current Democrat hierarchy are gone. They are utterly hated with reasons given if you ask.
It is obvious the labeling of the reds as a hired mob is inaccurate although I am sure just like Suthep’s group they do include some of those. However, it has to be said everyone clearly wanted to be there, supported the group and would continue to do so.
My main memory though will be of a very old local couple I encountered both with walking sticks hobbling along in the blazing sun to attend. They hadnt been paid, they hadn’t attended a red event before but they wanted to show support.
I don’t care where people were educated. It is just a shame that these rectors failed to attend any classes in democratic proceedures or were to dumb to listen. They are responsible for the education of the next generation. It is also a pity that they failed to attend or listen to classes on freedoms of expression. Discipline is all they know. As far as Thaksin and YL are concerned I do not support their policies in doing favours for the elite in contracts abroad.
I am forced to defend this govt against the corrupt Democrat party and their fascist allies who, like yourself, probably worship dictatorships without question of the masses of corruption,thuggery and murders they commit. I can imagine you waving the Thai flag in disgust at the expected ICJ’s decision later today and joining the ultra nationalists to ferment disorder in an attempt to get the army to coup. This will fail and you will turn to your friends in the judiciary to do the dirty work for you.
Only time will tell the result of this battle for democracy or military dictatorship. However, real democracy will win in the end and the elite will be finished as a political force. I have already suggested to you to try Swaziland where you will live in bliss in this despotic kingdom and have complete control of the people.
What was that again about “very peaceful non-violent Red protests” Y2010? I was there, and I cringed at the daily Red bombs that went on for months at the city, before the crackdown. Enlighten me Amsterdam! Enlighten me.
I suggest you be specific and repeat your questions, Roy Anderson. But if you are asking rhetorical questions, are you really expecting answers?
BTW many of those Thai rectors, if not all, possess PhDs (and other degrees) from distinguished American and European universities. Not that education, even high education, would signify any enlightenment. Thaksin S. had a PhD in criminology and his dismal constitutional abuses and extra-judicial outrages were the result. His sister Yingluck earned a US masters of information technology, I believe, but she remains clueless to this day.
Unfortunately your educational system is based on worship and military lines. Free speech is forbidden, history distorted and propaganda is rife. No wonder students are conditioned to support military coups over the democratic process. Why don’t you just answer my questions instead of going off on a tangent? Corruption is rife within the elite and military as well as govt workers. However, the recent report from Transparency actually stated the corruption has declined under this govt.
As for your friends greeting the coup with glee, I just feel sorry for their complete lack of knowledge about democracy and the democratic process. Thailand will never become a real democracy whilst there are two opposing forces ruling this country. One democratically elected and the elite/military who rule with fear of coups.
This dual power structure has to end with a professional army installed and firmly under civilian control.
Arisman (the tote-one-gasoline-filled-bottle-to-Bangkok Red provocateur) has recently reemerged to say: “(Thai) students conned (by their rectors/tutors) to join anti-government rallies.”
Roy Anderson you echo Arisman’s sentiments when said that “all those Bangkok (people) who stood and cheered (the coupist tanks) were fooled by the military”.
Tell that to my friend, with a Wharton MBA, delighting his children to explore the coupist a tank, or, my Chula cousin who brought drinks/food to the coupist soldiers.
BTW those Thai students had been hibernating for a long long time until Yingluck’s amnesty-bill emerged.
(I miss Republican, Historicus, Jaded and many of old New Mandala. I wonder what color of shirts they prefer these days?)
Facebook 
Twitter 
Soundcloud 
Youtube 
Rss
What is to be done in Thailand?
Now that the mistaken amnesty has been ditched, presumably Abhisit and Suthep will be tried on the murder charges laid against them. That should surely provide the best forum to uncover what were the real sources of violence in April and May 2010. Of course, this being Thailand, it may not happen at all!
Taking a stance
Very interesting, thanks for this.
On a related point, Nidhi had an interesting column in Matichon yesterday, making the observation that the Chulalongkorn U. authorities seem more concerned about not letting Thaksin get off corruption charges but have nothing to say about bringing to justice the people who ordered the slaughter of 100 protesters and injuries to 1000s in 2010:
“…р╕Др╕╕р╕Ур╕Шр╕гр╕гр╕бр╕Чр╕╡р╣Ир╕Ир╕╕р╕мр╕▓р╕п р╕нр╕вр╕▓р╕Бр╕Ыр╕ер╕╣р╕Бр╕Эр╕▒р╕Зр╣Гр╕лр╣Йр╕ер╕╣р╕Бр╕ир╕┤р╕йр╕вр╣Мр╕Вр╕нр╕Зр╕Хр╕Щр╕Др╕╖р╕нр╕нр╕вр╣Ир╕▓р╣Вр╕Бр╕З р╣Бр╕Хр╣Ир╣Ар╕лр╕╡р╣Йр╕вр╕бр╣Вр╕лр╕Фр╕нр╕вр╣Ир╕▓р╕Зр╣Др╕гр╕Бр╣Зр╣Др╕Фр╣Йр╣Гр╕Кр╣Ир╕лр╕гр╕╖р╕нр╣Др╕бр╣И…”
This seems to be the position of most of the universities.
http://www.matichon.co.th/news_detail.php?newsid=1384095819&grpid=&catid=02&subcatid=0207
The end of the Red Shirts?
where is the footage р╕Др╕Щр╣Др╕Чр╕в?
On the cusp of disease transition in Myanmar
Historic legacy unfortunately NEITHER follow fairy tales ending NOR afford easy/magical redemption.
As much as Sam Byfied might try to project a fairy tale ending and the ‘ride into sun set’/NCD future, Ko Moe Aung #2.1 well described the continuation of all quagmire since colonial legacy plus useless careless policy of the west.
NGO IS NOT a panacea to real redemption by the West.
Diabetes, High blood pressure and associated Morbidity and Mortality exist within the Asian contact-poverty. ALMOST ALWAYS Nothing to do with ‘Western caloric excesses’ model. One should look at Thailand or more immediately Cambodia for High Salt intake model.
The real NCD are, drug addiction and prostitution. Both progress to CD, as well as unscrupulous manufacturer/vendors causing generational damage.
The NGO that truly wish to even begin to address poverty should start by living among the people. Instead of writing another proposal for NCD. Where the grant obtained only at best 30% ( average < !0%) go to benefit the true purpose.
Back to Thailand’s future
You are right about Thaksin being a catalyst, but you also cant discount the decades of previous development that got rural people into a position into which they could make their voices heard.
The 1997 constitution did not require any reds or Thaksin for it to be promulgated did it?
There is an one-sided stridency on this site that mirrors many others that is hypocritical as it is irrational.
Is not time to stop pointing fingers and trying to make one side or the other solely to blame for Thailand’s problems, but to acknowledge that both have valid points and look for solutions to the issues at hand?
Coups are a symptom of the problem, not the problem itself, just as Thaksin is a symptom of the problem, getting rid of coups or Thaksin will not solve Thailand’s issues as a democracy and as a nation.
The current situation clearly demonstrates the short-comings of Thailand’s state of democracy or more aptly; democrazy.
What is the next step for Thailand to progress as a democratically and as a nation?
Surely it should be to make all politicians accountable for their actions and engage sincerely with their electorate, rather than make cynical calculations on what will benefit them in these games that they play amongst themselves using people as pawns.
In the UK there is a disillusionment with the political process, as eloquently espoused by Russell Brand on BBC’s hard talk, and it has received quite a bit of attention and sparked discusion.
There is definitely a weakness in electoral politics even in the developed world that is crying out for a change.
I am particularly taken with this proposed solution using NOTA as an option on ballot papers, where if NOTA comes first the election is held again, but this time with all new candidates. This is a revolutionary concept, but a revolution that works within the current democratic process, so is relatively easy to implement.
This inherently assures that elected representatives must engage directly with electorate or will find themselves tossed out. Now they cannot rely on apathy or their main political opponents being too unpalatable for their voters to support even if they find the candidate or that candidate’s political party almost as bad.
Once this issue is tackled then so much of Thailand’s other issues can be brought into rein as elected representatives represent the electorate rather that their own special interests.
Is it not logical that a democracy does not limit choices merely between candidates in an election? Surely in a real democracy the electorate should have the right to reject all the candidates put before them.
The UK petition for electoral reform is located here:
http://you.38degrees.org.uk/petitions/inclusion-of-an-official-none-of-the-above-option-for-all-uk-elections-2
I encourage any UK based readers who find the concept appealing to sign the petition.
Surely something like this can be adapted to the Thai situation. Is it not extending the ability for the Thai electorate to make rational choices on who represents them?
I would love to see an academic, thai or foreign, bring this concept into thai political discussion. Its an idea that deserves serious academic discussion on its merits and drawbacks.
The end of the Red Shirts?
р╕бр╕╡р╕Др╕Щр╣Др╕Чр╕вр╕Чр╕╡р╣Ир╣Др╕бр╣Ир╕вр╕нр╕бр╕гр╕▒р╕Ър╕Хр╕зр╕▓р╕бр╕Ир╕гр╕┤р╕Зр╕нр╕вр╕╣р╣Ир╣Гр╕Щр╕Щр╕╡р╣Йр╣Ар╕вр╕нр╕░ р╣Др╕бр╣Ир╣Ар╕Ыр╣Зр╕Щр╕Ир╕│р╣Ар╕Ыр╣Зр╕Щр╕Хр╣Йр╕нр╕Зр╣Гр╕Кр╣Йр╕ар╕▓р╕йр╕нр╕▒р╕Зр╕Бр╕др╕йр╣Ар╕ер╕в р╕Вр╕нр╣Гр╕лр╣Йр╕Фр╕╣р╕ар╕▓р╕Юр╕Др╕Щр╕Чр╕╡р╣Ир╕бр╕▓р╕Ыр╕гр╕░р╕Чр╣Йр╕зр╕Зр╕Хр╕▓р╕бр╕кр╕╡р╕ер╕б р╕нр╣Вр╕ир╕Б р╕Лр╕┤ р╕зр╣Ир╕▓р╕Др╕╕р╕Ур╕Ир╣Ир╕▓р╕вр╣Гр╕лр╣Йр╣Ар╕Вр╕▓ 500 р╕Ър╕▓р╕Ч р╣Ар╕Вр╕▓р╕Ир╕░р╕бр╕▓р╕Бр╕▒р╕Щр╕лр╕гр╕╖р╕нр╣Ар╕Ыр╕ер╣Ир╕▓ р╕вр╕нр╕бр╕гр╕▒р╕Ър╕Др╕зр╕▓р╕бр╕Ир╕гр╕┤р╕Зр╣Ар╕Цр╕нр╕░р╕зр╣Ир╕▓р╣Гр╕Др╕гр╕бр╕▓р╣Ар╕Юр╕гр╕▓р╕░р╣Ар╕Зр╕┤р╕Щ р╕бр╕╡р╕Др╕ер╕┤р╕Ыр╣Ар╕кр╕╖р╣Йр╕нр╣Бр╕Фр╕Зр╣Ар╕Вр╣Йр╕▓р╕Др╕┤р╕зр╕гр╕▒р╕Ър╣Ар╕Зр╕┤р╕Щр╕Бр╕▒р╕Щр╣Ар╕вр╕нр╕░р╣Бр╕вр╕░р╣Гр╕Щ youtube р╕Щр╣Ир╕░ р╕гр╕Цр╕Чр╕╡р╣Ир╣Др╕Ыр╕гр╕▒р╕Ър╕Бр╣Зр╣Ар╕Ыр╣Зр╕Щр╕гр╕Цр╣Гр╕Щр╕гр╕▓р╕Кр╕Бр╕▓р╕г р╣Бр╕Цр╕бр╕бр╕╡р╕Хр╕│р╕гр╕зр╕Ир╣Др╕Ыр╕вр╕╖р╕Щр╕нр╕│р╕Щр╕зр╕вр╕Др╕зр╕▓р╕бр╕кр╕░р╕Фр╕зр╕Бр╣Гр╕лр╣Йр╕нр╕╡р╕Б р╕Чр╕▒р╣Йр╕Зр╕Чр╕╡р╣Ир╕бр╕▓р╕вр╕╖р╕Щр╕лр╣Йр╕▓р╕бр╕Др╕Щр╕Чр╕╡р╣Ир╕Ыр╕гр╕░р╕Чр╣Йр╕зр╕Зр╕Юр╕гр╕Ъ. р╣Бр╕вр╣Ир╕бр╕▓р╕Б
There are a lot of Thais who post there comments here. I don’t think you should hide yourself,so I write it in Thai then we can communicate clearly. A lot of pictures in the internet of the protestants from Silom, Asoke. Are you sure you can pay them to gathered there? While there are clips in youtube showed the Redshirts flocked to take their wages before being loaded into buses prepare by government officials (some vehicle show government badge on the bus side). Arriving in Bkk. with a warm welcome from police officers, whom threaten to use teargas with anti-amnesty bill protesters?
What is to be done in Thailand?
Suthep Thugsurban is trying to organise a national strike against the government on Wednesday, Thursday and Friday of this week. This is an opportunity for all proud Thais to counter his negative plans by putting an extra effort into whatever it is that they do. This may not completely counter the effects of his destructive call, but it will nevertheless make a clear statement of the belief that Thai people have in their country and in its democratic values.
The end of the Red Shirts?
“Whatever debate is going on among the reds re amnesty, one thing is for sure, they are not going to abandon PT if the alternative is the Democrats.”
The alternative is that they form their own party. Having recently moved from Don Muang after 13+ year to anothet supposed “hot bed” of Red Shirts, Udon Thani, I have spoken with many locals in both places – young and old. They are not really fans of PT and will say much the same about Thaksin (or worse), but they want change. UDD and whatever they want to call themselves have such weak leaders, who just continue the feudal system. They mouth “change”, but what they say is just more of the same, with another colour.
What is to be done in Thailand?
Sceptic says the Reds were peaceful and Vichai says they were violent. Then the more reason we get to the bottom of what was true and what were lies.
Every player except Thaksin are willing to submit themselves to a judicial inquiry about their roles that led to the tragedy of deaths maiming and arson
And the Red leaders who led and goaded their followers to violence and arson and some to their deaths had acquiesced to a whitewash because Thaksin had said so?
What is going on Sceptic and Amsterdam?
The end of the Red Shirts?
I asked a vendor who I patronize regularly at the normally bustling Klong Thom market on Saturday night – ‘why is it so deathly quiet here tonight? ‘
He answered plaintively “500 Baht – the Dems are paying protesters at Democracy Monument 500 Baht each per day”
What is to be done in Thailand?
I was there too. I spent several hours sitting and talking with the mostly middle-aged and very peaceable protestors. Nothing in their demeanour suggested that they would use violence. Were there hothead elements? Unfortunately there inevitably will be some in any so large a group passionately committed to a point of principle. But it is at least as likely that many of the incidents were the work of agents-provocateurs. As to the fire in Central World it is at least worth considering who benefited most from its burning and reconstruction..?
What is to be done in Thailand?
End of coup in Thai version of democracy? Thaksin may command house majority through populism schemes for many years to come, but his tarnish image as the most corrupt politician instigated by his opponents will always haunt him.
The networks will continue to use Democrat Party and Thaksin as proxies until both sides die down. When the day has finally arrived, a more democracy prevails and system of checks and balances really works, coups by military and judiciary will fade away, though little by little.
It won’t be long. We can wait.
The end of the Red Shirts?
I spent some time at, around and outside the MTT gathering of Reds on Sunday. A few thoughts:
It was big. The BKK Post said 50K. That could well be low as the event area was packed, the area outside was busy and there were red shirts around other parts of MTT. I had a distant low angle view of the area similar to what the Thai media use to show the BKK yellow demos and this had far far more people than those demos even before dark. There is even now a dusk high angle shot that shows a good view on twitter although it misses other areas where people and guards were outside the main event but listening to speeches still.
The atmosphere did not seem particularly aggressive and the people were friendly. Although the speakers did rouse people later in the day.
A huge amount came by car or motorcycle with BKK plates. Some had to walk more than a km to get in. Many, probably most, were from BKK and surrounding provinces from conversations, observations. There were a fair number of middle class people in attendance too.
MTT itself seems to be a typical BKK suburb with very strong support for the reds. It was definitely a gathering on home turf. Then again the Dems are doing that in their central BKK stronghold.
Whatever debate is going on among the reds re amnesty, one thing is for sure, they are not going to abandon PT if the alternative is the Democrats. It was obvious that the common enemy will keep them united or at least until the current Democrat hierarchy are gone. They are utterly hated with reasons given if you ask.
It is obvious the labeling of the reds as a hired mob is inaccurate although I am sure just like Suthep’s group they do include some of those. However, it has to be said everyone clearly wanted to be there, supported the group and would continue to do so.
My main memory though will be of a very old local couple I encountered both with walking sticks hobbling along in the blazing sun to attend. They hadnt been paid, they hadn’t attended a red event before but they wanted to show support.
Back to Thailand’s future
I don’t care where people were educated. It is just a shame that these rectors failed to attend any classes in democratic proceedures or were to dumb to listen. They are responsible for the education of the next generation. It is also a pity that they failed to attend or listen to classes on freedoms of expression. Discipline is all they know. As far as Thaksin and YL are concerned I do not support their policies in doing favours for the elite in contracts abroad.
I am forced to defend this govt against the corrupt Democrat party and their fascist allies who, like yourself, probably worship dictatorships without question of the masses of corruption,thuggery and murders they commit. I can imagine you waving the Thai flag in disgust at the expected ICJ’s decision later today and joining the ultra nationalists to ferment disorder in an attempt to get the army to coup. This will fail and you will turn to your friends in the judiciary to do the dirty work for you.
Only time will tell the result of this battle for democracy or military dictatorship. However, real democracy will win in the end and the elite will be finished as a political force. I have already suggested to you to try Swaziland where you will live in bliss in this despotic kingdom and have complete control of the people.
What is to be done in Thailand?
Like Arisman … Amsterdam is baaaack!
What was that again about “very peaceful non-violent Red protests” Y2010? I was there, and I cringed at the daily Red bombs that went on for months at the city, before the crackdown. Enlighten me Amsterdam! Enlighten me.
Back to Thailand’s future
I suggest you be specific and repeat your questions, Roy Anderson. But if you are asking rhetorical questions, are you really expecting answers?
BTW many of those Thai rectors, if not all, possess PhDs (and other degrees) from distinguished American and European universities. Not that education, even high education, would signify any enlightenment. Thaksin S. had a PhD in criminology and his dismal constitutional abuses and extra-judicial outrages were the result. His sister Yingluck earned a US masters of information technology, I believe, but she remains clueless to this day.
Sarawak’s “Independence Day”
Proud to be Sarawakian, & I want Sarawak Independence
Back to Thailand’s future
Unfortunately your educational system is based on worship and military lines. Free speech is forbidden, history distorted and propaganda is rife. No wonder students are conditioned to support military coups over the democratic process. Why don’t you just answer my questions instead of going off on a tangent? Corruption is rife within the elite and military as well as govt workers. However, the recent report from Transparency actually stated the corruption has declined under this govt.
As for your friends greeting the coup with glee, I just feel sorry for their complete lack of knowledge about democracy and the democratic process. Thailand will never become a real democracy whilst there are two opposing forces ruling this country. One democratically elected and the elite/military who rule with fear of coups.
This dual power structure has to end with a professional army installed and firmly under civilian control.
The end of the Red Shirts?
The city of Bangkok is boiling. PM Yingluck, in an outrageous lapse of judgment, encourages her Red shirt supporters into a very incensed city.
And you Geng Mag thinks your smug indecipherable ‘metaphors’ could enlighten?
Geeeeng Maaaag ka jing jing!
Back to Thailand’s future
Arisman (the tote-one-gasoline-filled-bottle-to-Bangkok Red provocateur) has recently reemerged to say: “(Thai) students conned (by their rectors/tutors) to join anti-government rallies.”
Roy Anderson you echo Arisman’s sentiments when said that “all those Bangkok (people) who stood and cheered (the coupist tanks) were fooled by the military”.
Tell that to my friend, with a Wharton MBA, delighting his children to explore the coupist a tank, or, my Chula cousin who brought drinks/food to the coupist soldiers.
BTW those Thai students had been hibernating for a long long time until Yingluck’s amnesty-bill emerged.
(I miss Republican, Historicus, Jaded and many of old New Mandala. I wonder what color of shirts they prefer these days?)