I will let the author or someone else familiar with surveys and survey techniques explain what surveys are meant to do, and whether when designed correctly, it is representative of the universe that they are trying to explain.
Kamal, you make an important point about the 50% Malaysian Muslims who do not agree with violence. I have a few questions and let me start with this:
In your view, has Islam (as Islam is not monolithic, I define Islam here as those that are disseminated by the state) been a force for progress in Malaysia. Progress I define here as liberating the individual (both Muslims and non-Muslims) or has it been oppressive?
Spot on. I’m getting a bit tired of the anti-Muslim scaremongering I have read more than once on New Mandela.
If among the 520,437 who refused to answer the question because they were either afraid or embarrassed to reveal their inclination for the justification of violence to defend Islam, then the actual number would be higher. is an unjustified assumption, moreover.
in attempting to reply to your two question Greg arising from the entertaining provocation of that quote, it’s instructive that there’s now much evidence of the state itself playing the role of instigator of conflicts – whether that’s the various and many attempts at Zahid decrees against perceived UMNO enemies, or the seemingly casual threats published regularly in Utusan m’sia where its editorials and frontpages suggest grave retribution to minorities who recoiled from supporting their persecutors. Moreover, it would be worthwhile to consider how so many of the extraordinary ‘ordinary’ malaysians met during the fraught election campaign in april/may, up and down semananjung, who understood and apparently saw through the regular provocations of the state-UMNO and voted accordingly against what these state actors represented. As the polling figures now indicate, the PM’s complaint of a ‘Chinese tsunami’ seems a petulant poke in the eye of a hopeful, less racialised reality. Less parang, more promenade is preferred?
Frank G Anderson – ‘there (is) little to no freedom nor acceptance of the exercise of freedom of speech here’. As for non Thais – fair enough. But with respect to Thai people themselves quite the opposite is now the case as you suggest. Recall the PAD radio and television broadcasts a few years back and, on the other side, the various outpourings of those aligned with the Red Shirt movement? Compared with the not so distant past I think there was what some might consider almost an excess of ‘free speech’ via the mass media. In the beginning this was quite a shock to the system (well my ‘system’ at least) akin, in a way, to the first time one is exposed to hard core pornography (well, way, way back in the pre-internet era of course)
China uses the 2Y-strategy (Yuan and Y-chromosomes both of which they have a surplus) and the 2B-tactics (Bribery and Bullying) to colonise its neighbouring barbaric regions, such as Nanchao, Tungut, Tibet, Sinkiang, Nepal, Burma, Laos, etc. etc. For millennia, Han Chinese have viewed the periphery as populated by barbarians and it is a mark of Chinese history to “civilize”, “pacify” and “sinicize” them (bring them under Chinese cultural, economic and genetic control)
LOL
Of course, you can’t forget about the massive on going colonization of Tibet, Xinjiang, and Inner Mongolia. And the PRC’s domination of Hong Kong’s politics, and the desire to capture Taiwan. Then again, there is China’s aggressive actions with Japan in the East China Sea. Oh, and I just remembered China’s continuous attempts to encroach on India. Doesn’t it also prop up the most horrific regime in the world in North Korea?
But then again, the Western nations’ Opium Wars are clearly the most obvious cause of all this anyway.
About corruption in Thailand, I think for the 2 billion for high speed rail projects can carried vegetables that are not connected to any other country in ASEAN and can not support this policy with the export revenue and how Thailand will get earning at any way, If not for the taxation increase such as taxation a person that were single.
If you want to get finance national for development. It is not tough enough. Just stop corruption ( i think we should have a law about was penalties for politicians that fraud nation) to this country, it will start a new era of good, happy, and is not funded by the government to borrow money to build a electric train.
hahaha thanks to yr neat observation.
It’s the 10,061,782 “extrapolation” that mark this write up as untrustworthy in its intellectuality. Ideological is the right word England.
The juxtaposition of tongue-wagging vs machete wielding was a bit unnerving..as if the latter was better or even a solution.
I do think the answers are staring at us boldy and starkly in the face. And being stated every which where during the tongue-wagging whether in kopi-tiams (coffee shops) or on the internet.
To answer the question posed:
1.the social group or actor which is the main source of conflicts in Malaysia: those with power and authority sanctioned by the ruling coalition, especially UMNO. And at times even the highest levels of government itself, are the main source of ‘conflict’. Racial and religious statements that are virtually incendiary emanating from the highest echelons of power? Najib’s Chinese Tsunami? Zahid Hamidi on NO to Allah days before the Court hearing (not subjudice by any standards? He’s named as a party in the Court case!!), JAKIM of the Prime Minister’s department with at lest two recent sermons, describing the need to beware and fight the enemies of Islam… and naming Christians specifically? Also calling for ‘action’ (tindakan) and describing it as ‘perjuangan suci’ – a holy struggle.
2. What role does the state play? Hypothetically the conflict would be among citizens and the state moderates and diffuses tension.
In this instance, with the state as provocateur, it is the maturity of Malaysians, the fact that it isn’t so easy to rile up Malaysians by racial and religious rants any more which ‘moderates’ and diffuses.
We’ve gotten wise to the strategy of rule and divide by race and religion; the alternate media plays a huge role in getting moderate views and actual facts out… and most of all, there is a solid educated Malay/Muslims middle class who see through the UMNO/BN ruses.. and won’t fall for it. They didn’t, in large numbers, during GE 13. It does not look like its happening now.
The Catholic Church continuously calls for its adherents to remain home, stay in Churches and pray and NOT turn up at the Court hearings for the Herald. It refuses to take the bait… so Perkasa and its ilk are left rabble rousing on their own outside the Courts…
It is the state itself, power and authority itself that needs to be tempered, to stop rending (no longer just straining) the fabric of our society, which is fragile and yet tenuous. Frankly, the state needs to be stopped: Its political expedience of every sort including for maintaining individual political power – aka the upcoming UMNO elections.
What tongue-wagging thankfully non-machete wielding Malaysians need is UBAH. Including the current holders of power being able to do so. Err… that we should be so lucky!!!??
Move over, Sigmund.
No offense, but…most Thais that are not used to free discussion view any negative comments about Thailand from a foreigner as over the top and insulting, ignorant, etc. I’ve heard Thais insult the country as bad or worse than I could ever aspire to, by the way. The other element in this is that there little to no freedom nor acceptance of the exercise of freedom of speech here. That inculcates automatic assumptions that the foreigner is being too harsh and doesn’t know what he is talking about.
A small sample of 500 odd interview cannot be use to represent a population of several millions. Reading the first few paragraphs already sounds like bad statistical research. you cannot make generalizations like that. Such simple and naive associations are wrong. I have not bother to read the rest of the article as it obviously argues away from the facts. Secondly, if a more than 50% disagrees with violence in the name of religion, why focus on the divided minority to represent the issue being discuss at hand?
I think a major difference between Thailand and the countries of Laos, Myanmar, and Cambodia is that no one expects any of these countries to have any respect for democracy and human rights. To turn the question back around, do the Thais really want Thailand to be comparable to the state of Myanmar?
Thailand makes a point of democratic rhetoric and posturing, and it is certainly more democratic comparable to its immediate neighbors. And yes, there are more expats in the kingdom. But how does that inherently negate anything foreigners say? When someone criticizes the US, should I respond with, “Why aren’t you so tough on Mexico?”
Thailand has many more people and much more wealth compared to Laos or Cambodia, so its obvious why it gets more attention. And I don’t think anyone criticizes Thailand because it “deviates from the script.” Actually, criticism comes from Thailand consistently following the same script: Mass Movement > Crackdown > Repression > The others are “Un-Thai” > etc….
Tocharian,
China is the last bastion of anti colonialism. Oh, I forgot about the colonialist policies in the South China seas and of course Africa. lol
The long-standing observation of my (Sakon-born) wife is that we expats are so much tougher on Thailand than anywhere else in the region. We’ve lived at least a few years in each of the mainland countries and I think she’s probably right. A tally of NM comments would also suggest that we wade in on things Thai far more readily.
A beery conversation last night came up with some possible explanations. Thailand is more accessible, more “known”. Most of us were suckled on republican milk. More of us have been able to live there – for longer. Our collective subconscious is deeply frustrated that the sole post-War western “ally” on the mainland keeps deviating from the script.
Come to think of it, the people in Lao, Myanmar, Cambodia and Vietnam who are most likely to pull me up for “not understanding the context” are expats who have been there all of 3 months. In Thailand, it’s almost always the Thais who have been there a little longer.
This is my favorite review of this book so far for three reasons:
1) It sets the book in Aung-Thwin’s larger works.
2) It sets the book in larger Burmese historiographical context.
3) This was not a quick review by any means. You obviously knew that to review this book would cause the ire of some folks (as some of the comments have show above).
Additionally, kudos to Patrick for publishing this online with New Mandala where it is much easier to get a hold of than, say, lost in a random journal.
All these Burmese “dissidents” normally apply for refugee status or political asylum in Western countries (I don’t know much about Australia but Fort Wayne, Indiana and Bergen, Norway used to be popular spots!). Except for the late ex-Brigadier Kyaw Zaw and some other Communists from the pre-88 days, I rarely see Burmese “pro-democracy activists” immigrating to China (a friendly neighbouring country?) because they “hate” the West and its “colonial” foreign policy LOL
Plan B – Charles F. said nothing about Buddhism and taking any “daughter spirit” hostage. You just made something up just to argue about it. Google “Straw Man Argument.”
“Don’t you think selective approval of holding a daughter spirit hostage to continue condemn a government is silly at best at the worst make Islamic ‘none believers as infidels’ justifiable as well ?” – This is possibly the most incomprehensible and pointless sentence I have ever read.
Your fixation on “the West” has blinded you to the single most obvious point about this article. The Burmese state gave the order to fire on the demonstrators, and Burmese soldiers pulled the trigger. A young girl died, and a father wants the dreams of all those who sacrificed their lives to come true.
You wrote “Move on we must.” This father IS moving on – using a terrible event to strive for a better world for everyone. It is YOU who can’t move on from you bogeyman “the West.” If I, an American, say “The West’s actions have been a factor leading to the current condition of Myanmar,” will you just move on and debate and think constructively? If so, then consider the above statement to be my sentiment.
So you have highlighted the role of “the West” in certain issues. Since you have astutely determined the true root cause of the Rohingya massacres, how exactly does that help us in finding a solution? Maybe the Rohingyas and the Buddhists can put aside their hatred, get together, and talk about how “the West” started all the trouble to begin with?
You are so right about the “classification” Many years ago, when I went for the final scholarship interview with a GLC, the interviewer told me frankly to change my “religion” entry from Atheist to Buddhist.
He said, the scholarship is mine.. but not as an atheist.
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Extremism in the name of Islam and Malaysian Muslims
Dear Kamal and ideological,
Thank you for your views.
Kamal,
I will let the author or someone else familiar with surveys and survey techniques explain what surveys are meant to do, and whether when designed correctly, it is representative of the universe that they are trying to explain.
Or maybe someone from Pew can respond.
The survey methods of this survey is available at this link: http://www.pewglobal.org/2013/09/10/survey-methods-58/
Kamal, you make an important point about the 50% Malaysian Muslims who do not agree with violence. I have a few questions and let me start with this:
In your view, has Islam (as Islam is not monolithic, I define Islam here as those that are disseminated by the state) been a force for progress in Malaysia. Progress I define here as liberating the individual (both Muslims and non-Muslims) or has it been oppressive?
Look forward to your views.
Thanks.
Extremism in the name of Islam and Malaysian Muslims
Dear Sam Deedes,
Could you kindly provide examples of “… the anti-Muslim scaremongering I have read more than once on New Mandela….”
Also, could you explain your rationale on why you think the assumption made by the author is unjustified?
Thank you, and look forward to your explanation.
Extremism in the name of Islam and Malaysian Muslims
Spot on. I’m getting a bit tired of the anti-Muslim scaremongering I have read more than once on New Mandela.
If among the 520,437 who refused to answer the question because they were either afraid or embarrassed to reveal their inclination for the justification of violence to defend Islam, then the actual number would be higher. is an unjustified assumption, moreover.
Tongue wagging and not machete wielding
in attempting to reply to your two question Greg arising from the entertaining provocation of that quote, it’s instructive that there’s now much evidence of the state itself playing the role of instigator of conflicts – whether that’s the various and many attempts at Zahid decrees against perceived UMNO enemies, or the seemingly casual threats published regularly in Utusan m’sia where its editorials and frontpages suggest grave retribution to minorities who recoiled from supporting their persecutors. Moreover, it would be worthwhile to consider how so many of the extraordinary ‘ordinary’ malaysians met during the fraught election campaign in april/may, up and down semananjung, who understood and apparently saw through the regular provocations of the state-UMNO and voted accordingly against what these state actors represented. As the polling figures now indicate, the PM’s complaint of a ‘Chinese tsunami’ seems a petulant poke in the eye of a hopeful, less racialised reality. Less parang, more promenade is preferred?
Pesky foreigners
Frank G Anderson – ‘there (is) little to no freedom nor acceptance of the exercise of freedom of speech here’. As for non Thais – fair enough. But with respect to Thai people themselves quite the opposite is now the case as you suggest. Recall the PAD radio and television broadcasts a few years back and, on the other side, the various outpourings of those aligned with the Red Shirt movement? Compared with the not so distant past I think there was what some might consider almost an excess of ‘free speech’ via the mass media. In the beginning this was quite a shock to the system (well my ‘system’ at least) akin, in a way, to the first time one is exposed to hard core pornography (well, way, way back in the pre-internet era of course)
Extremism in the name of Islam and Malaysian Muslims
A small sample of 500 odd interview cannot be use to represent a population of several millions.
Is that so? Next time you visit the doctor, make sure that if he wants to test your blood, he removes all of it.
They cannot rest in peace
China uses the 2Y-strategy (Yuan and Y-chromosomes both of which they have a surplus) and the 2B-tactics (Bribery and Bullying) to colonise its neighbouring barbaric regions, such as Nanchao, Tungut, Tibet, Sinkiang, Nepal, Burma, Laos, etc. etc. For millennia, Han Chinese have viewed the periphery as populated by barbarians and it is a mark of Chinese history to “civilize”, “pacify” and “sinicize” them (bring them under Chinese cultural, economic and genetic control)
LOL
They cannot rest in peace
Of course, you can’t forget about the massive on going colonization of Tibet, Xinjiang, and Inner Mongolia. And the PRC’s domination of Hong Kong’s politics, and the desire to capture Taiwan. Then again, there is China’s aggressive actions with Japan in the East China Sea. Oh, and I just remembered China’s continuous attempts to encroach on India. Doesn’t it also prop up the most horrific regime in the world in North Korea?
But then again, the Western nations’ Opium Wars are clearly the most obvious cause of all this anyway.
Thailand’s corruption record
About corruption in Thailand, I think for the 2 billion for high speed rail projects can carried vegetables that are not connected to any other country in ASEAN and can not support this policy with the export revenue and how Thailand will get earning at any way, If not for the taxation increase such as taxation a person that were single.
If you want to get finance national for development. It is not tough enough. Just stop corruption ( i think we should have a law about was penalties for politicians that fraud nation) to this country, it will start a new era of good, happy, and is not funded by the government to borrow money to build a electric train.
Extremism in the name of Islam and Malaysian Muslims
hahaha thanks to yr neat observation.
It’s the 10,061,782 “extrapolation” that mark this write up as untrustworthy in its intellectuality. Ideological is the right word England.
Tongue wagging and not machete wielding
The juxtaposition of tongue-wagging vs machete wielding was a bit unnerving..as if the latter was better or even a solution.
I do think the answers are staring at us boldy and starkly in the face. And being stated every which where during the tongue-wagging whether in kopi-tiams (coffee shops) or on the internet.
To answer the question posed:
1.the social group or actor which is the main source of conflicts in Malaysia: those with power and authority sanctioned by the ruling coalition, especially UMNO. And at times even the highest levels of government itself, are the main source of ‘conflict’. Racial and religious statements that are virtually incendiary emanating from the highest echelons of power? Najib’s Chinese Tsunami? Zahid Hamidi on NO to Allah days before the Court hearing (not subjudice by any standards? He’s named as a party in the Court case!!), JAKIM of the Prime Minister’s department with at lest two recent sermons, describing the need to beware and fight the enemies of Islam… and naming Christians specifically? Also calling for ‘action’ (tindakan) and describing it as ‘perjuangan suci’ – a holy struggle.
2. What role does the state play? Hypothetically the conflict would be among citizens and the state moderates and diffuses tension.
In this instance, with the state as provocateur, it is the maturity of Malaysians, the fact that it isn’t so easy to rile up Malaysians by racial and religious rants any more which ‘moderates’ and diffuses.
We’ve gotten wise to the strategy of rule and divide by race and religion; the alternate media plays a huge role in getting moderate views and actual facts out… and most of all, there is a solid educated Malay/Muslims middle class who see through the UMNO/BN ruses.. and won’t fall for it. They didn’t, in large numbers, during GE 13. It does not look like its happening now.
The Catholic Church continuously calls for its adherents to remain home, stay in Churches and pray and NOT turn up at the Court hearings for the Herald. It refuses to take the bait… so Perkasa and its ilk are left rabble rousing on their own outside the Courts…
It is the state itself, power and authority itself that needs to be tempered, to stop rending (no longer just straining) the fabric of our society, which is fragile and yet tenuous. Frankly, the state needs to be stopped: Its political expedience of every sort including for maintaining individual political power – aka the upcoming UMNO elections.
What tongue-wagging thankfully non-machete wielding Malaysians need is UBAH. Including the current holders of power being able to do so. Err… that we should be so lucky!!!??
Pesky foreigners
Move over, Sigmund.
No offense, but…most Thais that are not used to free discussion view any negative comments about Thailand from a foreigner as over the top and insulting, ignorant, etc. I’ve heard Thais insult the country as bad or worse than I could ever aspire to, by the way. The other element in this is that there little to no freedom nor acceptance of the exercise of freedom of speech here. That inculcates automatic assumptions that the foreigner is being too harsh and doesn’t know what he is talking about.
Extremism in the name of Islam and Malaysian Muslims
A small sample of 500 odd interview cannot be use to represent a population of several millions. Reading the first few paragraphs already sounds like bad statistical research. you cannot make generalizations like that. Such simple and naive associations are wrong. I have not bother to read the rest of the article as it obviously argues away from the facts. Secondly, if a more than 50% disagrees with violence in the name of religion, why focus on the divided minority to represent the issue being discuss at hand?
Pesky foreigners
I think a major difference between Thailand and the countries of Laos, Myanmar, and Cambodia is that no one expects any of these countries to have any respect for democracy and human rights. To turn the question back around, do the Thais really want Thailand to be comparable to the state of Myanmar?
Thailand makes a point of democratic rhetoric and posturing, and it is certainly more democratic comparable to its immediate neighbors. And yes, there are more expats in the kingdom. But how does that inherently negate anything foreigners say? When someone criticizes the US, should I respond with, “Why aren’t you so tough on Mexico?”
Thailand has many more people and much more wealth compared to Laos or Cambodia, so its obvious why it gets more attention. And I don’t think anyone criticizes Thailand because it “deviates from the script.” Actually, criticism comes from Thailand consistently following the same script: Mass Movement > Crackdown > Repression > The others are “Un-Thai” > etc….
They cannot rest in peace
Tocharian,
China is the last bastion of anti colonialism. Oh, I forgot about the colonialist policies in the South China seas and of course Africa. lol
Pesky foreigners
The long-standing observation of my (Sakon-born) wife is that we expats are so much tougher on Thailand than anywhere else in the region. We’ve lived at least a few years in each of the mainland countries and I think she’s probably right. A tally of NM comments would also suggest that we wade in on things Thai far more readily.
A beery conversation last night came up with some possible explanations. Thailand is more accessible, more “known”. Most of us were suckled on republican milk. More of us have been able to live there – for longer. Our collective subconscious is deeply frustrated that the sole post-War western “ally” on the mainland keeps deviating from the script.
Come to think of it, the people in Lao, Myanmar, Cambodia and Vietnam who are most likely to pull me up for “not understanding the context” are expats who have been there all of 3 months. In Thailand, it’s almost always the Thais who have been there a little longer.
Review of History of Myanmar Since Ancient Times
This is my favorite review of this book so far for three reasons:
1) It sets the book in Aung-Thwin’s larger works.
2) It sets the book in larger Burmese historiographical context.
3) This was not a quick review by any means. You obviously knew that to review this book would cause the ire of some folks (as some of the comments have show above).
Additionally, kudos to Patrick for publishing this online with New Mandala where it is much easier to get a hold of than, say, lost in a random journal.
cheers, -T
They cannot rest in peace
All these Burmese “dissidents” normally apply for refugee status or political asylum in Western countries (I don’t know much about Australia but Fort Wayne, Indiana and Bergen, Norway used to be popular spots!). Except for the late ex-Brigadier Kyaw Zaw and some other Communists from the pre-88 days, I rarely see Burmese “pro-democracy activists” immigrating to China (a friendly neighbouring country?) because they “hate” the West and its “colonial” foreign policy LOL
They cannot rest in peace
Plan B – Charles F. said nothing about Buddhism and taking any “daughter spirit” hostage. You just made something up just to argue about it. Google “Straw Man Argument.”
“Don’t you think selective approval of holding a daughter spirit hostage to continue condemn a government is silly at best at the worst make Islamic ‘none believers as infidels’ justifiable as well ?” – This is possibly the most incomprehensible and pointless sentence I have ever read.
Your fixation on “the West” has blinded you to the single most obvious point about this article. The Burmese state gave the order to fire on the demonstrators, and Burmese soldiers pulled the trigger. A young girl died, and a father wants the dreams of all those who sacrificed their lives to come true.
You wrote “Move on we must.” This father IS moving on – using a terrible event to strive for a better world for everyone. It is YOU who can’t move on from you bogeyman “the West.” If I, an American, say “The West’s actions have been a factor leading to the current condition of Myanmar,” will you just move on and debate and think constructively? If so, then consider the above statement to be my sentiment.
So you have highlighted the role of “the West” in certain issues. Since you have astutely determined the true root cause of the Rohingya massacres, how exactly does that help us in finding a solution? Maybe the Rohingyas and the Buddhists can put aside their hatred, get together, and talk about how “the West” started all the trouble to begin with?
Extremism in the name of Islam and Malaysian Muslims
You are so right about the “classification” Many years ago, when I went for the final scholarship interview with a GLC, the interviewer told me frankly to change my “religion” entry from Atheist to Buddhist.
He said, the scholarship is mine.. but not as an atheist.