Speaking of German relatives, my children’s grandfather was a young German soldier in WWII (on the Russian front) and his father fought in WWI (not in Russia though!). I had very few conversations with them about their experiences as German soldiers (they didn’t like to talk about these things too much) before they died.
This article, however, is about the stupidity, hypocrisy and naivité of some Thais (and many other Asians) about Hitler, nationalism, fascism and racism. My point is that nowadays, some Asians seem to me more nationalistic/fascist/racist than Europeans and Americans. Tribal/ethnic identity united under a strong despotic “F├╝hrer” seems to be a political goal! It’s difficult for white people to point that out to them (“atonement for the sins of the colonial past” and all that politically correct rubbish) but my ancestors were from Burma, so ironically, I enjoy more “freedom of speech” to criticise these blatant flaws and shortcomings in Asian societies LOL
I have no hard data, Greg. But, I can say with 99% certainty that Sarawakians have no desire to return to British rule or become an independent state. That is not to say that they (or we) do feel we are somehow different from fellow Malaysians in the Peninsular, and have perhaps gotten the short end of the stick. I have not seen such high political consciousness until the recent election, especially in urban areas. People called for a change of regime (both at the federal and state levels), but not to withdraw from the federation.
I am curious on your comment that nationalistic education has led to a “rejection of the regime”. I would have thought nationalistic education has actually raised rakyat’s political consciousness. Negative sentiments of the regime can be attributed to many things … education, social media, slower growth, etc.
But then – the Nazis wouldn’t have been the Nazis… 😉
Racial superiority of the “German race” over especially Jewish and Slavic peoples, and expansion to the east to acquire new “lebensraum” were two of the main pillars of Nazi ideology.
What makes, IMO, Nazi Germany different from other brutal dictatorships is the industrial and pragmatically planned and executed mass murder based on these inane race theories.
While Human history had many race based mass murder incidents (Turkey and and Armenians, Ruanda, US and American Indians, etc), the pragmatism of the holocaust is just beyond my understanding.
I have had countless discussions with my parents (who were 14 and 15 at the end of the war, and lived in Germany throughout this period) over this, and it still remained a mystery to us.
Of course antisemitism has had a long history in Germany (and the rest of Europe), and pogroms against Jews occurred regularly, starting from the late 11th century where crusaders murdered the Jews in the Rheinland. But since Bismarck’s times Germany saw itself as a thoroughly modern Nation based on science and philosophy. Also the loss of WW1 and the contract of Versailles still cannot explain the holocaust.
I have been at times confronted with views and accusations that there is something different with Germans, that there is some sort of murderous gene in Germans which sets us apart from others, and should be a reason why we should be contained and controlled…
To my defense i can only say that when it comes to conquest i would have rather taken over Italy than cold Russia (who in his right mind wants 9 months of winter?!), and that i once had the hots for an American girl with huge knockers who happened to be Jewish, and the only thing in my mind at the time was making love not war… unfortunately we stayed at the time in a tiny 8-bed dorm in Singapore…
Any solution will have to see an attempt by the Thai State to grant more local autonomy each changwat. This needs to occur throughout Thailand not just in the Deep South. Local governors need to be elected from within the province and the role of Bangkok and the national government should be to insure that the local godfathers and criminal elements are controlled by adequate policing. A tough requirement in corruption ridden Thailand.
This is an interesting statement Lynette — “..that they are a part of Malaysia.”
How would one identify this, or come to this conclusion?
I observe that for many non-Muslims (and increasing number of Muslims) in Peninsular Malaysia, nationalistic education has resulted in hatred towards the state/regime as seen in their attribution of increased polarisation and Islamisation to ethno-religious nationalistic education and rejection of the regime at the elections.
1. Geo-politics:
One could even say that if the Nazis, especially Hitler, hadn’t been too obsessed with racial ideology (it’s not just about the Jews), kept their ambitions closer to Europe (forget about teaming up with the Japs and getting involved in this Axis thing to achieve world hegemony etc.), most of Europe would probably be under German control. The Germans could have avoided confronting the Russians, which totally overextended their resources (besides, Hitler should have left Africa to the Italians (losers!) and told Rommel to come back to Germany a lot earlier!) Anyway, history can not be rewritten (except y the Chinese!) By the way, some Indians might harbour some kind of racist/fascist ideologies, but geo-politically speaking, modern day China reminds me more of Nazi Germany in a lot of different ways!
2. Fascism/Racism:
About the Hitler obsession and fascistoid tendencies amongst Asians and others: it is obvious that racism is not a “German invention” (although such efficient brutal genocide against the Jews and others was quite unique in modern history). I have lived in three different continents (Asia, Europe and North America) for extended periods of time and I definitely think racism is still quite prevalent amongst Asians (even if they live in the West!). Most people in the West, especially among the younger generation, are aware of the dangers and stupidity of such primitive tribal ethnic type of racism and most countries in the West are trying to achieve (at least on paper) a sort of multi-cultural mix where citizenship is not based on race o religion. Most countries in the Middle East and Asia are still far away from that ideal. In India the main obstruction to becoming a modern country is the caste system and this rubbish about being Aryan (with white threads if you are Brahmin!). I find it hypocritical that many Asians like to complain about white people discriminating at them, when at the same time they think white skin is “superior” (Burmese and Thais probbaly think dark-skinned Rohingyas are “Untermenschen” LOL) Skin-whitening creams are very popular (even in India), not to mention cosmetic surgery (nose jobs, eye jobs in South Korea for example).
In this day and age of the Higgs bosons and DNA manipulation, we should stop classifying humans by race or ethnicity (I am proud to be descended from amphibians) and personally I prefer rugged individualism to any kind of ant-like society following ideological pheromones based on ideology: fascist, communist or religious nonsense!
The real stagnation is the political requirements of Race and religion. Any ideas pushing the narrow confines of of Race and religion will at best be ignored or at worse, the author (if Malaysian) punished in some way.
This situation is unlikely to change unless there is a change of Govt.. it is also unlikely that I will live to see this change.
I don’t think there’s any turning back. Nationalist education in the last few decades has made Sarawakians feel that they are a part of Malaysia, though not to the same extent as those in Peninsular Malaysia.
Am not really sure the dimension of Ngana (#10.3) query. But if in Ngana’s household HMK Bhumibhol’s picture still hangs or is in display, then the reverence endures. But if as I suspect Ngana’s household had replaced HMK’s picture with Thaksin’s, then the reverence had been diminished in one household.
I would not reduce the evils of Nazi Germany to just one man – Hitler – but would suggest to see this phenomenon in the context the time. Without his helpers on high levels and a large part of the German population either supporting or underestimating him he would have remained nothing but a beer hall ranter on the extreme fringe.
Also, lets not forget Stalin here. Firstly – the body count under his rule was not too dissimilar in numbers.
And secondly – lets not forget the Molotov/Ribbentrop pact, in which just a few days before the German invasion into Poland both countries decided upon how to divide Poland and other east European countries between themselves. Russia then invaded 15 days after Germany its agreed upon part of Poland. And until Germany’s invasion into Russia in June ’41 both dictatorships were quite chummy.
There is a fascinating autobiography of that time in the Sovietunion written by the son of German exiles in Russia – Wolfagang Leonhard – “Die Revolution entl├д├Яt ihre Kinder”, if anyone is interested. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wolfgang_Leonhard
Hitler
– there is nothing comparable in the history of mankind
– no other man has brought so much suffering and death to mankind as this person
– In such a person to see anything “good” is absolutely Cracked Brain, Dumb and Dangerous
– Equally dangerous is a school system that does not refer to this abominations but still looking for something good in them and allow such “heroic” comparisons
– is just as dangerous when a country has its own history can not really work up
Still, the Nazis were in alliance with Japan, and a few thousand Indians had for a time been attached to the SS. And then, Nazi occultism and its search for Shambala, with Himmler even sending several expeditions to Tibet to search for the hidden kingdom…
Nazi Germany also supported many Arab states against the Brits, and even people like the Mufti of Jerusalem lived in Berlin throughout the war. There were even Muslims contingents in the SS. Until today Hitler is still quite popular in the middle east.
Nazi racial theories have always been a complete idiocy, pseudo-scientifically based on a period when anthropology went completely insane.
In the racial hierarchy and pecking-order of the Nazis, Thais and most Asians would be pretty low down the list anyway (“Untermenschen mit gelber Haut und Schlitzaugen” LOL), probably beneath the Jews or even the Gypsies, so it’s totally stupid for Thais and other Asians to admire Hitler and the Nazi ideology. Germans (whether they are Nazis or not) would find such behaviour totally ridiculous and oxymoronic!
[…] from an article called “Thailand’s international human rights obligations in question” by Carlos Fernandez Torne, guest contributor to http://www.newmandala.org/, […]
Excuse me please, am i now reduced to being just “a German” here by you? Isn’t that somewhat…racist?
I have been born in 1968, by the way, and wasn’t there in the Germany of the 1930’s.
It is not exactly a tiny majority in India, if you look at the fact that the BJP was in power from 1998 to 2004 – a right wing party which is part of the Hindutva movement and that has been implicated directly in several massacres against Muslims, and is allied with the fascist Shiv Sena, founded by Bal Thackeray, who was an open admirer of Hitler.
And just for you – no, i do not compare Nazi Germany and India. I am just stating that there are far more people in India who admire Hitler than here in Thailand.
I am not certain what Cliff Sloane points were, or, how accurate and reliable. But assuming what Cliff Sloane says are accurate: (a) Sarit was murderous than Thaksin, (b) Chatchai was more corrupt than Thaksin and (c) the military had caused more depletion of national treasury … then what? Thaksin has/had been responsible for and/or directed extra-judicial murders, rampant corruption and worse (still ongoing btw) at a scale that thus deserves judicial persecution and yes righteous punishment. Right Mr. Cliff Sloane?
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Thein Sein talks at Chatham House
Correction:
So expect similar to those undertaken by Indonesia’s military…
Thein Sein talks at Chatham House
Indonesia was groomed in the sixties, turned and backed by the West. The Burmese generals have seen the light after losing their way in the “socialist” tunnel, the beacon held up to them by Suharto. So expect once the West has decided thanks to the Lady that these generals are people they can do business with. Business rules, OK?
Hitler again
Speaking of German relatives, my children’s grandfather was a young German soldier in WWII (on the Russian front) and his father fought in WWI (not in Russia though!). I had very few conversations with them about their experiences as German soldiers (they didn’t like to talk about these things too much) before they died.
This article, however, is about the stupidity, hypocrisy and naivité of some Thais (and many other Asians) about Hitler, nationalism, fascism and racism. My point is that nowadays, some Asians seem to me more nationalistic/fascist/racist than Europeans and Americans. Tribal/ethnic identity united under a strong despotic “F├╝hrer” seems to be a political goal! It’s difficult for white people to point that out to them (“atonement for the sins of the colonial past” and all that politically correct rubbish) but my ancestors were from Burma, so ironically, I enjoy more “freedom of speech” to criticise these blatant flaws and shortcomings in Asian societies LOL
Sarawak’s “Independence Day”
I have no hard data, Greg. But, I can say with 99% certainty that Sarawakians have no desire to return to British rule or become an independent state. That is not to say that they (or we) do feel we are somehow different from fellow Malaysians in the Peninsular, and have perhaps gotten the short end of the stick. I have not seen such high political consciousness until the recent election, especially in urban areas. People called for a change of regime (both at the federal and state levels), but not to withdraw from the federation.
I am curious on your comment that nationalistic education has led to a “rejection of the regime”. I would have thought nationalistic education has actually raised rakyat’s political consciousness. Negative sentiments of the regime can be attributed to many things … education, social media, slower growth, etc.
best, L.
Hitler again
But then – the Nazis wouldn’t have been the Nazis… 😉
Racial superiority of the “German race” over especially Jewish and Slavic peoples, and expansion to the east to acquire new “lebensraum” were two of the main pillars of Nazi ideology.
What makes, IMO, Nazi Germany different from other brutal dictatorships is the industrial and pragmatically planned and executed mass murder based on these inane race theories.
While Human history had many race based mass murder incidents (Turkey and and Armenians, Ruanda, US and American Indians, etc), the pragmatism of the holocaust is just beyond my understanding.
I have had countless discussions with my parents (who were 14 and 15 at the end of the war, and lived in Germany throughout this period) over this, and it still remained a mystery to us.
Of course antisemitism has had a long history in Germany (and the rest of Europe), and pogroms against Jews occurred regularly, starting from the late 11th century where crusaders murdered the Jews in the Rheinland. But since Bismarck’s times Germany saw itself as a thoroughly modern Nation based on science and philosophy. Also the loss of WW1 and the contract of Versailles still cannot explain the holocaust.
I have been at times confronted with views and accusations that there is something different with Germans, that there is some sort of murderous gene in Germans which sets us apart from others, and should be a reason why we should be contained and controlled…
To my defense i can only say that when it comes to conquest i would have rather taken over Italy than cold Russia (who in his right mind wants 9 months of winter?!), and that i once had the hots for an American girl with huge knockers who happened to be Jewish, and the only thing in my mind at the time was making love not war… unfortunately we stayed at the time in a tiny 8-bed dorm in Singapore…
Finding a solution in Thailand’s deep south
Any solution will have to see an attempt by the Thai State to grant more local autonomy each changwat. This needs to occur throughout Thailand not just in the Deep South. Local governors need to be elected from within the province and the role of Bangkok and the national government should be to insure that the local godfathers and criminal elements are controlled by adequate policing. A tough requirement in corruption ridden Thailand.
Hitler again
This is one thread where Godwin’s Law is excused!
Sarawak’s “Independence Day”
This is an interesting statement Lynette — “..that they are a part of Malaysia.”
How would one identify this, or come to this conclusion?
I observe that for many non-Muslims (and increasing number of Muslims) in Peninsular Malaysia, nationalistic education has resulted in hatred towards the state/regime as seen in their attribution of increased polarisation and Islamisation to ethno-religious nationalistic education and rejection of the regime at the elections.
Hitler again
1. Geo-politics:
One could even say that if the Nazis, especially Hitler, hadn’t been too obsessed with racial ideology (it’s not just about the Jews), kept their ambitions closer to Europe (forget about teaming up with the Japs and getting involved in this Axis thing to achieve world hegemony etc.), most of Europe would probably be under German control. The Germans could have avoided confronting the Russians, which totally overextended their resources (besides, Hitler should have left Africa to the Italians (losers!) and told Rommel to come back to Germany a lot earlier!) Anyway, history can not be rewritten (except y the Chinese!) By the way, some Indians might harbour some kind of racist/fascist ideologies, but geo-politically speaking, modern day China reminds me more of Nazi Germany in a lot of different ways!
2. Fascism/Racism:
About the Hitler obsession and fascistoid tendencies amongst Asians and others: it is obvious that racism is not a “German invention” (although such efficient brutal genocide against the Jews and others was quite unique in modern history). I have lived in three different continents (Asia, Europe and North America) for extended periods of time and I definitely think racism is still quite prevalent amongst Asians (even if they live in the West!). Most people in the West, especially among the younger generation, are aware of the dangers and stupidity of such primitive tribal ethnic type of racism and most countries in the West are trying to achieve (at least on paper) a sort of multi-cultural mix where citizenship is not based on race o religion. Most countries in the Middle East and Asia are still far away from that ideal. In India the main obstruction to becoming a modern country is the caste system and this rubbish about being Aryan (with white threads if you are Brahmin!). I find it hypocritical that many Asians like to complain about white people discriminating at them, when at the same time they think white skin is “superior” (Burmese and Thais probbaly think dark-skinned Rohingyas are “Untermenschen” LOL) Skin-whitening creams are very popular (even in India), not to mention cosmetic surgery (nose jobs, eye jobs in South Korea for example).
In this day and age of the Higgs bosons and DNA manipulation, we should stop classifying humans by race or ethnicity (I am proud to be descended from amphibians) and personally I prefer rugged individualism to any kind of ant-like society following ideological pheromones based on ideology: fascist, communist or religious nonsense!
Can Malaysia’s intellectual communities move beyond the status quo?
The real stagnation is the political requirements of Race and religion. Any ideas pushing the narrow confines of of Race and religion will at best be ignored or at worse, the author (if Malaysian) punished in some way.
This situation is unlikely to change unless there is a change of Govt.. it is also unlikely that I will live to see this change.
Sarawak’s “Independence Day”
I don’t think there’s any turning back. Nationalist education in the last few decades has made Sarawakians feel that they are a part of Malaysia, though not to the same extent as those in Peninsular Malaysia.
Hitler again
Am not really sure the dimension of Ngana (#10.3) query. But if in Ngana’s household HMK Bhumibhol’s picture still hangs or is in display, then the reverence endures. But if as I suspect Ngana’s household had replaced HMK’s picture with Thaksin’s, then the reverence had been diminished in one household.
Hitler again
Sorry to be nitpicking here. 😉
I would not reduce the evils of Nazi Germany to just one man – Hitler – but would suggest to see this phenomenon in the context the time. Without his helpers on high levels and a large part of the German population either supporting or underestimating him he would have remained nothing but a beer hall ranter on the extreme fringe.
Also, lets not forget Stalin here. Firstly – the body count under his rule was not too dissimilar in numbers.
And secondly – lets not forget the Molotov/Ribbentrop pact, in which just a few days before the German invasion into Poland both countries decided upon how to divide Poland and other east European countries between themselves. Russia then invaded 15 days after Germany its agreed upon part of Poland. And until Germany’s invasion into Russia in June ’41 both dictatorships were quite chummy.
There is a fascinating autobiography of that time in the Sovietunion written by the son of German exiles in Russia – Wolfagang Leonhard – “Die Revolution entl├д├Яt ihre Kinder”, if anyone is interested. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wolfgang_Leonhard
Hitler again
Hitler
– there is nothing comparable in the history of mankind
– no other man has brought so much suffering and death to mankind as this person
– In such a person to see anything “good” is absolutely Cracked Brain, Dumb and Dangerous
– Equally dangerous is a school system that does not refer to this abominations but still looking for something good in them and allow such “heroic” comparisons
– is just as dangerous when a country has its own history can not really work up
Hitler again
Still, the Nazis were in alliance with Japan, and a few thousand Indians had for a time been attached to the SS. And then, Nazi occultism and its search for Shambala, with Himmler even sending several expeditions to Tibet to search for the hidden kingdom…
Nazi Germany also supported many Arab states against the Brits, and even people like the Mufti of Jerusalem lived in Berlin throughout the war. There were even Muslims contingents in the SS. Until today Hitler is still quite popular in the middle east.
Nazi racial theories have always been a complete idiocy, pseudo-scientifically based on a period when anthropology went completely insane.
Hitler again
In the racial hierarchy and pecking-order of the Nazis, Thais and most Asians would be pretty low down the list anyway (“Untermenschen mit gelber Haut und Schlitzaugen” LOL), probably beneath the Jews or even the Gypsies, so it’s totally stupid for Thais and other Asians to admire Hitler and the Nazi ideology. Germans (whether they are Nazis or not) would find such behaviour totally ridiculous and oxymoronic!
FYI, I was born in Burma.
Thailand’s international human rights obligations in question
[…] from an article called “Thailand’s international human rights obligations in question” by Carlos Fernandez Torne, guest contributor to http://www.newmandala.org/, […]
Hitler again
Excuse me please, am i now reduced to being just “a German” here by you? Isn’t that somewhat…racist?
I have been born in 1968, by the way, and wasn’t there in the Germany of the 1930’s.
It is not exactly a tiny majority in India, if you look at the fact that the BJP was in power from 1998 to 2004 – a right wing party which is part of the Hindutva movement and that has been implicated directly in several massacres against Muslims, and is allied with the fascist Shiv Sena, founded by Bal Thackeray, who was an open admirer of Hitler.
And just for you – no, i do not compare Nazi Germany and India. I am just stating that there are far more people in India who admire Hitler than here in Thailand.
Hitler again
I am not certain what Cliff Sloane points were, or, how accurate and reliable. But assuming what Cliff Sloane says are accurate: (a) Sarit was murderous than Thaksin, (b) Chatchai was more corrupt than Thaksin and (c) the military had caused more depletion of national treasury … then what? Thaksin has/had been responsible for and/or directed extra-judicial murders, rampant corruption and worse (still ongoing btw) at a scale that thus deserves judicial persecution and yes righteous punishment. Right Mr. Cliff Sloane?
Hitler again
Vichai N: What then can we make of the widespread admiration for the revered one?