I wish i could say that my comment was ironic. No, it wasn’t (i have spent in the last 25 years about 2 years in India, and have close family relations to India since i was a small child).
Hitler is enormously popular in India. First because of that fuzzy “Aryan” issue – the Vedas being seen as an Aryan religion, and Hitler highlighting this Aryan thing, which at the time was very popular in the German “voelkish” movement (and of course completely misunderstood)- one of the roots of the NSDAP.
Another reason is that during the independence struggle against Britain some hardcore factions have looked for Hitler for support, such as Subhas Chandra Bose whose Indian Legion was attached to the SS.
And lastly, India has a very strong homegrown right wing element, in organizations such as RSS, Shiv Sena, VHP, etc. Some of these organizations are also very much on the issue of “racial purity” under the guise of “Hindutva”, and make natural admirers of Hitler.
Khun Vichai, you have latched onto your devil indeed. For killing, no Thai leader even comes close to Sarit. For corruption, most of the civilian leaders exceed Thaksin, especially Chatchai. And no civilian leader has come close to the depletion of assets that the military have done all along. Thaksin is barely on any of these scales.
We who were personally touched by the Nazi period have a heightened sensitivity that leads to our outrage at Thai historical ignorance. But consider that we ourselves may romanticize the “Che” image despite his resume of murder and atrocity. The murders are not comparable, I know, but the historical forgetfulness certainly is. Also, I do not know of a society in the world that does not honor the “strong leader”. There is a great line in a Serbian rock song called “Pit Bull” — “With all my strength and cunning, I do not need a brain!”
I think you are reading to much into this Hitler thing.
Who else in history is so instantly recognizable.
Anyone can paint on a little toothbrush mustache comb their hair forward and do a Nazi salute and everyone knows who you are.
Its nothing to do with good or bad,
Elvis, Julius Cesar, Attila the Hun, don’t even come close.
Vichai’s (#10) poster was meant for Chris Beale but raised Frank-the-Mod’s hackles instead.
Chris Beale thinks himself ‘Thai-knowledgeable’ and ‘Thai-immersed’ enough to write that there is ‘widespread amiration of Hitler’ among Thais. More likely Chris Beale is drinking and getting drunk with the wrong Thai crowd, me thinks.
But you are right Frank the Mod. Thaksin’s 2,500 extrajudicial kills (all poor no-name Thais those 2,500 souls) could not be ‘Hitlerisque’ in scale or sheer malice.
Well they were both in bed with a Bush. Prescott for Hitler and his grandson Dubya for Thaksin.
My (perhaps simplistic and possibly incorrect) impression is that Hitler represents an anti-Western iconic symbol for a nation veering disturbingly (if understandably) close to open hatred of ‘whites’. At times I’m confronted by the hostile prejudice against the colour of my skin but then I remember I don’t much care for Christian two-faced invaders either.
Awhile back I posted an cartoon image from the movie Pocahontas with the chief saying “These white men are dangerous” and I was surprised by how many Likes it received.
Historically, that’s really very true. Perhaps the Thais are just remember more about geopolitical history than the West likes to forget.
There was only ever one country were Hitler was genuinely popular and I believe that’s your homeland.
As far as I’m aware India has still to place anyone similar to Hitler in power and having visited India on a dozen occasions I can’t concur with your anecdotal evidence.
You should go and explain to the citizens of the Soviet Union (25million dead), Jews (6million dead) and European Gypsies (and the other groups murdered by their millions in Nazi death camps) your notion of a connection between Thaksin and Hitler.
The constant attempts by the delusional to connect Hitler to Thaksin is a denigration of the memory of the 10s of millions killed by the Nazis. It is as pathetic as it is degenerate.
” … I’ve often been shocked by the quite widespread admiration of Hitler among Thais.” Chris Beale is shocked, he says. But even more “widespread admiration” among Thais linger for Thaksin. Could there be a connection … I must wonder?
During the many years I’ve spent in Thailand, I’ve often been shocked by the quite widespread admiration of Hitler among Thais. Eventually I reached this conclusion : Hitler was seen as the defender of indigenous rights, of grossly impoverished Germans standing up to the undoubtedly unjust Treaty of Versailles (shades of the Bowring Treaty against Siam). I.e. – it is a pre-World War Two view of Hitler, when he was in fact greatly admired by even many in the West, including Britain’s King Edward The Eighth.
I wonder how much of ‘Hitler chic’ has to do with the swastika symbol, which is still revered throughout many parts of Asia as the ancient sanskrit symbol of auspiciousness. For most westerners our main association with the swastika is through Nazism, but this would not be true for Thais.
Did Usama ibn Ladin also bring stability? Is someone like Al Pacino needed in the present situation?
I think some Thais may see Al Pacino, Ibn Ladin and Hitler, through the distance of space and/or of time, simply as pop-cultural iconic bad guys more akin to Darth Vader than to Sarit Thanarat. Consider that the Hitler they know really is a cinematic representation, a recurring villain in a number of imported movies. Sensationalist journalism has been giving Ibn Ladin a similar treatment.
(The same probably doesn’t go for Hitler’s status in India, though.)
When I was a schoolboy in late 1980s’ Czechoslovakia, Hitler was a point of reference, not just a bad guy but the purest evil in history. We were taught about Nazi crimes almost daily. I remember thinking of the WW2 as the end of history, a singular event after which all of the world embraced “democracy” (meaning that the heads of states were not all that powerful any more) and “socialism” (I don’t remember how I understood this term then, but it did have something to do with “nationalization”). Clearly, my Thai contemporaries under Prem would have none of that. I certainly dare not claim this makes their elementary education inferior to mine.
I like birds and feed them around my home in the early spring and late fall when they are migrating through the Chesapeake Bay in Virginia.
I am a professional numismatist who recently published a catalog for Cambodia. The first comprehensive book on their numismatics. One common early Cambodian coin has a bird on it that was id’ed as a Hamsa and a Cock. After much research, I found it was a Baillons Crake (Rail). It was a good omen bird because it arrived with the rains, which the Cambodians greatly needed for their food and economy. Does anyone know of there is a name in the Cambodian language for this bird? I cannot find a Cambodian birder who knows it.
If you know, please email me at [email protected].
Your work on migrant Burmese workers in Thailand has been commendable.
Unfortunately as the cliché goes, Burma is a land like no others. And surely you would have found out by now that if there are two Burmese, there will be three groups at each other’s throat all the time. So this report is indeed business as usual as far as Burmese are concerned, again unfortunately.
Naturally fractious and prone to suspicions, for which occasional violent reactions erupt as seen around the country now, a workers’ union as desired by the “west” is a sure no go.
Then again there is this problem of desirability at all of the “west’s” type trade union as the 88’s and others of “enlightened” (engagement -capitulation) attitude.
As you see the Burmese government of changed clothes universally intensely propped up is intensively recruiting and training the police force to double the number along with ‘new” business rules by power of the Big Four accounting firms (already in the country with no companies but the international loan agencies and any independent landing agencies would need them to be paid exorbitant amount of money by the people of the country who have not a clue what is going on) and that “Rule of Law” which is the sort of law to protect Monsanto like behemoths and various patent holders (who do run today’s world).
And if there is truly well regarded and honest broker for the masses of current and soon to be exploding number of factory workers in keenly expected sweatshops (why do we need them- sweatshops?- One answer is most people owning land now are in places the global companies have their eyes for. So they will simply be pushed out with the use of aforementioned “Police” in modern international standard eviction methods and packed off to those factories, some by way of exorbitant loans and farm produce price manipulation.), that person would easily be bought off or compromised as usual as seen in KNU style.
Anyhow you personally are in exciting time.
TRCT had no power of sub-peona and was stuffed full of openly anti-Thaksin persons in prominent positions. It was not objective and was almost completely rejected by every victim of the crackdown. The “international community” liked it as it provided another fig-leaf to their supine position whilst the US-backed military carried out ANOTHER of their routine massacres in 2010.
Let’s hope Carlos’s PhD is peer-reviewed properly.
“this is really the only general survey out there”
That’s the main problem Western academics, journalists and politicians are going to have with Burmese history and Burmese politics. They know very few reliable sources that are not written by pseudo-charlatans or neo-nationalists or someone with a “hidden agenda”. A lot of these “Burmese experts on Burma” are actually just Burmese ex-pats or exiles who left Burma and who happened to go to a University (in the West) and of course, the easiest way to get a PhD is to study some “soft” discipline related to Burma, in a Humanities/Social Science department such as History, Political Science, Anthropology etc. (not even Archaeology because that would involve serious field work!). Some of these Burmese ex-pats (sorry experts!) even become professors (for lack of truly qualified people? lol). Of course there are Burmese academics in the West who are professors in some “hard-core” Science or Engineering discipline, but they are quite rare and besides, they don’t get an advantage just because they can read Burmese (you don’t need that to understand Einstein’s E=mc^2)
I was born in Burma before Burma became independent and I did read “older” literature including the archaeological work done by U Aung Thaw. My impression is that this kind of “self-aggrandising-twisting-the-truth-style” of (re-)writing Burmese history (without even giving proper references to earlier work) started with coup d’etat by General Ne Win in 1962 and has lasted now for over 50 years (I’m older than that!) A rather weird “nationalistic-fascistoid” view of Burmese history became the norm (that’s why I was making fun of Pondaung primates!)
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Hitler again
Nick
But still, the Indians don’t come close to the 1930s Germans if we’re comparing love for Hitler…
So yes, a German condemning a tiny minority of 1billion Indians for having an infatuation with Hitler seems, well, dripping in irony.
Hitler again
I wish i could say that my comment was ironic. No, it wasn’t (i have spent in the last 25 years about 2 years in India, and have close family relations to India since i was a small child).
Hitler is enormously popular in India. First because of that fuzzy “Aryan” issue – the Vedas being seen as an Aryan religion, and Hitler highlighting this Aryan thing, which at the time was very popular in the German “voelkish” movement (and of course completely misunderstood)- one of the roots of the NSDAP.
Another reason is that during the independence struggle against Britain some hardcore factions have looked for Hitler for support, such as Subhas Chandra Bose whose Indian Legion was attached to the SS.
And lastly, India has a very strong homegrown right wing element, in organizations such as RSS, Shiv Sena, VHP, etc. Some of these organizations are also very much on the issue of “racial purity” under the guise of “Hindutva”, and make natural admirers of Hitler.
Hitler again
Khun Vichai, you have latched onto your devil indeed. For killing, no Thai leader even comes close to Sarit. For corruption, most of the civilian leaders exceed Thaksin, especially Chatchai. And no civilian leader has come close to the depletion of assets that the military have done all along. Thaksin is barely on any of these scales.
Hitler again
We who were personally touched by the Nazi period have a heightened sensitivity that leads to our outrage at Thai historical ignorance. But consider that we ourselves may romanticize the “Che” image despite his resume of murder and atrocity. The murders are not comparable, I know, but the historical forgetfulness certainly is. Also, I do not know of a society in the world that does not honor the “strong leader”. There is a great line in a Serbian rock song called “Pit Bull” — “With all my strength and cunning, I do not need a brain!”
Hitler again
I think you are reading to much into this Hitler thing.
Who else in history is so instantly recognizable.
Anyone can paint on a little toothbrush mustache comb their hair forward and do a Nazi salute and everyone knows who you are.
Its nothing to do with good or bad,
Elvis, Julius Cesar, Attila the Hun, don’t even come close.
Hitler again
Vichai’s (#10) poster was meant for Chris Beale but raised Frank-the-Mod’s hackles instead.
Chris Beale thinks himself ‘Thai-knowledgeable’ and ‘Thai-immersed’ enough to write that there is ‘widespread amiration of Hitler’ among Thais. More likely Chris Beale is drinking and getting drunk with the wrong Thai crowd, me thinks.
But you are right Frank the Mod. Thaksin’s 2,500 extrajudicial kills (all poor no-name Thais those 2,500 souls) could not be ‘Hitlerisque’ in scale or sheer malice.
Hitler again
Well they were both in bed with a Bush. Prescott for Hitler and his grandson Dubya for Thaksin.
My (perhaps simplistic and possibly incorrect) impression is that Hitler represents an anti-Western iconic symbol for a nation veering disturbingly (if understandably) close to open hatred of ‘whites’. At times I’m confronted by the hostile prejudice against the colour of my skin but then I remember I don’t much care for Christian two-faced invaders either.
Awhile back I posted an cartoon image from the movie Pocahontas with the chief saying “These white men are dangerous” and I was surprised by how many Likes it received.
Historically, that’s really very true. Perhaps the Thais are just remember more about geopolitical history than the West likes to forget.
Hitler again
Nick
Was your comment on India ironic?
There was only ever one country were Hitler was genuinely popular and I believe that’s your homeland.
As far as I’m aware India has still to place anyone similar to Hitler in power and having visited India on a dozen occasions I can’t concur with your anecdotal evidence.
Hitler again
Vichai
You should go and explain to the citizens of the Soviet Union (25million dead), Jews (6million dead) and European Gypsies (and the other groups murdered by their millions in Nazi death camps) your notion of a connection between Thaksin and Hitler.
The constant attempts by the delusional to connect Hitler to Thaksin is a denigration of the memory of the 10s of millions killed by the Nazis. It is as pathetic as it is degenerate.
Hitler again
‘Asia Sentinel’ has a story out yesterday on the Dep. PM saying they will consider revising the school curriculum to include the Holocaust. What’s worrying is that they don’t teach any history at all beyond the local monarchy! http://www.asiasentinel.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=5592&Itemid=392
Hitler again
” … I’ve often been shocked by the quite widespread admiration of Hitler among Thais.” Chris Beale is shocked, he says. But even more “widespread admiration” among Thais linger for Thaksin. Could there be a connection … I must wonder?
Hitler again
And here i was breaking into “How Deep is Your Love” when i saw those mudflaps.
Hitler again
During the many years I’ve spent in Thailand, I’ve often been shocked by the quite widespread admiration of Hitler among Thais. Eventually I reached this conclusion : Hitler was seen as the defender of indigenous rights, of grossly impoverished Germans standing up to the undoubtedly unjust Treaty of Versailles (shades of the Bowring Treaty against Siam). I.e. – it is a pre-World War Two view of Hitler, when he was in fact greatly admired by even many in the West, including Britain’s King Edward The Eighth.
Hitler again
I wonder how much of ‘Hitler chic’ has to do with the swastika symbol, which is still revered throughout many parts of Asia as the ancient sanskrit symbol of auspiciousness. For most westerners our main association with the swastika is through Nazism, but this would not be true for Thais.
Hitler again
Did Usama ibn Ladin also bring stability? Is someone like Al Pacino needed in the present situation?
I think some Thais may see Al Pacino, Ibn Ladin and Hitler, through the distance of space and/or of time, simply as pop-cultural iconic bad guys more akin to Darth Vader than to Sarit Thanarat. Consider that the Hitler they know really is a cinematic representation, a recurring villain in a number of imported movies. Sensationalist journalism has been giving Ibn Ladin a similar treatment.
(The same probably doesn’t go for Hitler’s status in India, though.)
When I was a schoolboy in late 1980s’ Czechoslovakia, Hitler was a point of reference, not just a bad guy but the purest evil in history. We were taught about Nazi crimes almost daily. I remember thinking of the WW2 as the end of history, a singular event after which all of the world embraced “democracy” (meaning that the heads of states were not all that powerful any more) and “socialism” (I don’t remember how I understood this term then, but it did have something to do with “nationalization”). Clearly, my Thai contemporaries under Prem would have none of that. I certainly dare not claim this makes their elementary education inferior to mine.
Birding with Thai characteristics
I like birds and feed them around my home in the early spring and late fall when they are migrating through the Chesapeake Bay in Virginia.
I am a professional numismatist who recently published a catalog for Cambodia. The first comprehensive book on their numismatics. One common early Cambodian coin has a bird on it that was id’ed as a Hamsa and a Cock. After much research, I found it was a Baillons Crake (Rail). It was a good omen bird because it arrived with the rains, which the Cambodians greatly needed for their food and economy. Does anyone know of there is a name in the Cambodian language for this bird? I cannot find a Cambodian birder who knows it.
If you know, please email me at [email protected].
Interview with Myanmar labour activist Su Su Nway
Stephen,
Your work on migrant Burmese workers in Thailand has been commendable.
Unfortunately as the cliché goes, Burma is a land like no others. And surely you would have found out by now that if there are two Burmese, there will be three groups at each other’s throat all the time. So this report is indeed business as usual as far as Burmese are concerned, again unfortunately.
Naturally fractious and prone to suspicions, for which occasional violent reactions erupt as seen around the country now, a workers’ union as desired by the “west” is a sure no go.
Then again there is this problem of desirability at all of the “west’s” type trade union as the 88’s and others of “enlightened” (engagement -capitulation) attitude.
As you see the Burmese government of changed clothes universally intensely propped up is intensively recruiting and training the police force to double the number along with ‘new” business rules by power of the Big Four accounting firms (already in the country with no companies but the international loan agencies and any independent landing agencies would need them to be paid exorbitant amount of money by the people of the country who have not a clue what is going on) and that “Rule of Law” which is the sort of law to protect Monsanto like behemoths and various patent holders (who do run today’s world).
And if there is truly well regarded and honest broker for the masses of current and soon to be exploding number of factory workers in keenly expected sweatshops (why do we need them- sweatshops?- One answer is most people owning land now are in places the global companies have their eyes for. So they will simply be pushed out with the use of aforementioned “Police” in modern international standard eviction methods and packed off to those factories, some by way of exorbitant loans and farm produce price manipulation.), that person would easily be bought off or compromised as usual as seen in KNU style.
Anyhow you personally are in exciting time.
Thailand’s international human rights obligations in question
TRCT had no power of sub-peona and was stuffed full of openly anti-Thaksin persons in prominent positions. It was not objective and was almost completely rejected by every victim of the crackdown. The “international community” liked it as it provided another fig-leaf to their supine position whilst the US-backed military carried out ANOTHER of their routine massacres in 2010.
Let’s hope Carlos’s PhD is peer-reviewed properly.
Hitler again
No, it’s not Andy Gibb – it’s Al Pacino playing Serpico.
Maybe New Mandala could publish an overwrought op-ed from Cod on Al’s place in Thai popular iconography?
Review of History of Myanmar Since Ancient Times
“this is really the only general survey out there”
That’s the main problem Western academics, journalists and politicians are going to have with Burmese history and Burmese politics. They know very few reliable sources that are not written by pseudo-charlatans or neo-nationalists or someone with a “hidden agenda”. A lot of these “Burmese experts on Burma” are actually just Burmese ex-pats or exiles who left Burma and who happened to go to a University (in the West) and of course, the easiest way to get a PhD is to study some “soft” discipline related to Burma, in a Humanities/Social Science department such as History, Political Science, Anthropology etc. (not even Archaeology because that would involve serious field work!). Some of these Burmese ex-pats (sorry experts!) even become professors (for lack of truly qualified people? lol). Of course there are Burmese academics in the West who are professors in some “hard-core” Science or Engineering discipline, but they are quite rare and besides, they don’t get an advantage just because they can read Burmese (you don’t need that to understand Einstein’s E=mc^2)
I was born in Burma before Burma became independent and I did read “older” literature including the archaeological work done by U Aung Thaw. My impression is that this kind of “self-aggrandising-twisting-the-truth-style” of (re-)writing Burmese history (without even giving proper references to earlier work) started with coup d’etat by General Ne Win in 1962 and has lasted now for over 50 years (I’m older than that!) A rather weird “nationalistic-fascistoid” view of Burmese history became the norm (that’s why I was making fun of Pondaung primates!)