Chrisb & Annie, do you think New Mandala has become “professionalised”? Perhaps it might be worth remembering Nich, Andrew and Greg are all fairly busy people and that this is crunch time of the second semester in most Australian universities. Having been responsible for some of the fun (nonsense) on this site over the years, I can say with some certainty that the edge of the editors has not been lost due to a new theme. Be patient…
Both this book and this review are invaluable in making clear that the developments in rural Thailand that underlie the country’s deep crisis are part of a regional trend.
[…] Is it more of a priority for ultra conservative NGO’s to safeguard Malaysia from Western immoralities (such as equality for LGBT’s) than to reduce the rates of infectious disease and infant mortality? If turning into a Western country means a few more gays in public and few thousand less children dying, then sign me up!! No wonder Malaysia is suffering a brain drain to the developed world! […]
I doubt the degradation is due to the cosmetics, cosmetics rarely have a great effect on the posters, check out Prachatai for example, cosmetically awful but there are… oh, sorry, bad example.
It might be pure chance, but it seems to me that the interesting content and comments have all but disappeared since your ‘upgrade’.
Personally, I find that the new layout is a turn-off; possibly others have found the same.
Armchair interventionists of all locations and persuasion seems to be stuck on deliberation of theoretical usage of a word and publishing catalogs of litany of previous”unjust” acts of the other side while studiously avoiding any ill deed by the supporting side.
There is no one addressing any current issue of the people involved on both sides on the ground,finding out their current fear and needs and rapprochement with participation from the very communities .
Unless that is done, Burma is heading towards full blown civil anarchy well before the much prophesied financial crisis driven “western” one.
Whether that requires “Foreign” intervention though is a separate question.
When we are talking about both sides. It is right we should listen both sides. Do Rohingyas have any person in government police force? Can they move one place to another freely? Who are the bosses in police forces in Rakine state? If British did not use Rohingya in any books, should we not accept them as Rohingya? There were no reference as Rakines but mough only. Whole villages of muslims were burnt down. Still Muslims should be considered as culprits. When we talk about both sides. Both sides should have same rights.Then we can compare the both sides. What will be benefit for UN, NGO and by talking bias for Rohingya.
So-called Rohingyas are the Bengali Illegals being pushed eastwards into Burma by the massive population explosion and grinding poverty in their motherland Bangladesh.
Believe it or not, Bangladesh with 160 millions is only 1/5 of Burma with 60 millions.
In 1942 during the lawlessness of WW2 they massacred nearly 100,000 Yakhine Buddhists then living at the May-yu frontier (Maungdaw-Butheetaung) and took their lands and fishing grounds by a Genocide.
First they’d tried to cut off that area (North Arakan) from Burma and joined East Pakistan (today Bangladesh) in long Mujahid Insurgency (1948-1956) after declaring they were Bengali Muslims under Pakistanese Flag, but Burmese army units led by General Tin Oo (now NLD vice Chair) destroyed them.
Since then they changed their tactics and reinvented themselves as the Rohingyas a thousand years old ethnic group of Burma and trying politically to get the control of captured north Arakan. As simple as that.
I want to ask Nay San Lwin (the guest contributor) just one question.
Were your grand parents and parents born in Burma?
I bet they were all born in India or East Pakistan (today Bangladesh)!
Is Ohn (the guest contributor) from the KIA propaganda office? He sounds so awfully one-sided. Poor NM seems to have depleted all its previous Burma contributors!
I recently checked out all the radio broadcasts with the BBC/FBIS Monitoring Service Archives, but none of the references is listed and so cannot be verified. Are there other original sources?
The two documentary references are correct, though the Encylopaedia reference does not ‘conclude’ anything – the article is about the Mahu Frontier District May 1961 – Feburary 1964 and simply records the fact on Page 90 that 75% of the population in the district are ‘Rohingya’.
The British did not use the term ‘Rohingya’ during their administration of Arakan 1825-1948 and the label has been popularised only since the Mujahid rebellion 1949-1961.
My conclusion is that Burmese officials were generally reluctant to use the term. No doubt there are ‘Rohingya’ who would rather not use what has become a toxic label. A frequently repeated litany of isolated references, even if verified, only confirms that a label had been applied, not necesarily accepted.
I notice a growing reluctance by Western politicians to use the term ‘Rohingya’ or to charcterise the present communal violence as a conflict between two great religions. In his latest expression of serious concern about events, UK Foreign Secretary William Hague avoids altogether using the words ‘Rohingya’, ‘Buddhists’ and ‘Muslims’.
Polarisation designed to provoke confrontation will not help to resolve what is a very grave problem which needs external help, but not gratuitous intervention.
[…] Nay San Lwin is an activist and Vice President of the Burmese Rohingya Association in Deutschland and Director (EU Region) of the Free Rohingya Campaign (FRC). He can be reached via Twitter @nslwin Sources Here: […]
It is now like parallel rail tracks. Close together. One goes this way and the other that way.
Until both sides can merge like the waters of Chindwin and Irrawaddy at Nyaung-Oo, this riddle is not going to be solved and everyone will continue to suffer.
None of the Arakanese side protestation mentions any of the ill treatment to Rohingya and none of the Rohingya advocates ever describes “reverse-pogrom” ill and cruel acts by Rohingya towards the Arakanese. Both sides continue to show only their cowardly sides.
Until BOTH sides grow some ball and admit and acknowledge their own despicable acts, this problem will never go away.
Use of any loud advocates (UN, US, EU, HRW, AI, ABCDEFGH)of any sort is NEVER going to solve the problem. All they have done thus far has been to make things worse. As no one is presenting the real problems fairly from BOTH sides.
Everyone is justifying their own heinous act based on the similar deeds by the other side.
That is the cycle that needs stopping.
What this article does show is how tolerant and peaceful living it was possible before and can be achieved again. With true effort.
Ignorance and chauvinistic way the military has taught the populace of Burma for two decades has been the background atmosphere, but the obscene lauding by the self-serving international communities to these arch-practitioners of racism, Bamar Sit-tut in gaung-paungs, is the encouraging and sustaining factor.
As yet no one has condemned the most inhumane acts. Money vs 800,000 financially inconsequential people.
A question still has to be asked. Is the protection of the lives and properties of the people on the ground best served by claiming such and such rights because of such and such history as in a court of law to have never ending round and round talk-fest, enough of which has already been done?
What is required now is to ask and address the fear and insecurities of people on the ground and work together to solve the problems.
So far all that all the Rohingya advocates have done is like child screaming loud and telling the father of the other sibling’s ill deeds in a long, long list hoping that that father may beat the other guy up. This will help no one.
Unless the intention is to sort out the problem and not to incite more emotion and agitation by showing off the sore-eye, the problem is waiting to get bigger and bigger. No one gets a good deal out of big problem.
So enquire and address the fear and insecurities of people on the ground on BOTH sides and work together to solve these issues.
Not a single live would be saved by finding out the origin and usage of any word, “Rohingya” or “Bamar” or any other.
That is perfectly OK Plan B. You need not worry. No one in that government of yours understands “fair”.
In fact there was no criticism. It was stating the plain facts.
Chauvinistic Sit-tut. Sold the country to Papa cheap, still thinking it was smart. Now killing, raping, looting everything in the way.
These are facts!
Philosophically it is hard to know which way. What is best way to do if someone comes in with guns, helicopters and mines to your place which they have already pre-sold in advance to kill you? To curl up and die or fight back?
There is plenty of money around. Not because Thein Sein or Aung San Suu Kyi or any one is so great. But because there are things in Burma saleable, to make money. Whether the people of Burma want it or not never features. They certainly will spend their and their descendants’ lives in hard and harsh labour camps and rehab centres to pay back only the interest on those sacks of money everyone is drooling for.
For that amount of money, Sit-tut can buy all the armed people. That is what is supposed to be called “Peace Process”. Look at Harn Lay’s cartoon.
“Peace Process” is indeed “Piece Process”. Dividing the country and its wealth among the armed groups. Nothing more, nothing less. And cowardly lying to the public. And posturing like saviours. Sick! (Now, this is criticism.)
Karen armed groups want a cut from the ports, roads, rails, trading posts, exorbitant land prices, Norwegian money, and SEZ’s – disposable, indentured, labour camps- and they will copy the decadent Burmese ways now.
Even if they want to, the leadership of Kachin will not be able to sell their public to drown their entire ancestral land and having Pipes with attendant Bamar Sit-tut all over their place, even if Aung San Suu Kyi seems to give tacit blessing just like she, like Pope, gives blessings to everything this military does with or without these trendy, ridiculous lu-byat gaung-paungs.
Jeizutinbade — excellent statement. I wonder if you’d couch it in human rights when preaching to Burmese not already converted though. Is there an “underground”, subversive, support base for this view in Yangon and Mandalay?
Now that Andrew Selth beating season has begun, a small point needs to be made.
The opening line “old Burmese proverb”, really translates as “Wisdom is in the letters”, rather than books. As all are aware, old Burma used palm leaves and metal stencil for writing, hence circular scripts.
Short of Pagan pagoda and religious stone etchings, Burmese traditionally do not believe in long standing heritage or indelible marks. Very green!
1)”This Bamar government” that you have unfairly characterized, yet knowing the historical certainty of the behavior.
2)The equally irresponsible ethnic leaders that choose war over negotiation knowing the eventual quagmire of illustrated too well in the ongoing longest civil war of Bamar vs Kayin.
3)West incessant useless careless intervention of last few decades.
to arrive at this juncture.
Why that this 3 legged sustained quagmire can be now be resolve with 2 legged attribute ?
The losses among the Tamadaw is pale in comparison to the loss of #3 effect during the Nagis period where instead of pure humanitarian effort the incidence is used unprecedentedly against SPDC.
However you might be on to something when you mentioned “the worth of a citizenry” to the West be it a Bamar or a Kachin.
The ongoing animosity b/t the Muslim Rohingyas and Buddhist Yakhine is what will be driving the West policy for the near future.
Hi there. This is an excellent and useful reference from Dr Selth. There are a few important books that he has missed however.
A few of these are:
Ledi Sayadaw. 1915. “The Vipassana-Dipani: The Manual of Insight”.
Byles, Marie Beuzaville. 1962. “Journey Into Burmese Silence”. London: George Allen and Unwin.
There are also some recent articles published in academic journals that have been omitted- articles by Ingrid Jordt and Julianne Schober come to mind.
If anyone is interested on working on a bibliography specifically on Buddhism in Myanmar please let me know as I have a project along these lines.
My email: [email protected]
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New Mandala site upgrade
Chrisb & Annie, do you think New Mandala has become “professionalised”? Perhaps it might be worth remembering Nich, Andrew and Greg are all fairly busy people and that this is crunch time of the second semester in most Australian universities. Having been responsible for some of the fun (nonsense) on this site over the years, I can say with some certainty that the edge of the editors has not been lost due to a new theme. Be patient…
Review of Revisiting Rural Places
Both this book and this review are invaluable in making clear that the developments in rural Thailand that underlie the country’s deep crisis are part of a regional trend.
Brain drain in Malaysia
[…] Is it more of a priority for ultra conservative NGO’s to safeguard Malaysia from Western immoralities (such as equality for LGBT’s) than to reduce the rates of infectious disease and infant mortality? If turning into a Western country means a few more gays in public and few thousand less children dying, then sign me up!! No wonder Malaysia is suffering a brain drain to the developed world! […]
New Mandala site upgrade
I doubt the degradation is due to the cosmetics, cosmetics rarely have a great effect on the posters, check out Prachatai for example, cosmetically awful but there are… oh, sorry, bad example.
Its the cosmetics for sure….
New Mandala site upgrade
It might be pure chance, but it seems to me that the interesting content and comments have all but disappeared since your ‘upgrade’.
Personally, I find that the new layout is a turn-off; possibly others have found the same.
Kachin affair is a Bamar affair
The public of the country Burma’s side, regardless of ethnicity or religion or occupation for that matter.
Remember the article was about the Burmese soldiers and their families.
Making Rohingya statelessness
Wise call.
Armchair interventionists of all locations and persuasion seems to be stuck on deliberation of theoretical usage of a word and publishing catalogs of litany of previous”unjust” acts of the other side while studiously avoiding any ill deed by the supporting side.
There is no one addressing any current issue of the people involved on both sides on the ground,finding out their current fear and needs and rapprochement with participation from the very communities .
Unless that is done, Burma is heading towards full blown civil anarchy well before the much prophesied financial crisis driven “western” one.
Whether that requires “Foreign” intervention though is a separate question.
Making Rohingya statelessness
Anyone that use Benedict Rogers as reference should immediately be suspected to be against solving the problem as it is now.
Making Rohingya statelessness
When we are talking about both sides. It is right we should listen both sides. Do Rohingyas have any person in government police force? Can they move one place to another freely? Who are the bosses in police forces in Rakine state? If British did not use Rohingya in any books, should we not accept them as Rohingya? There were no reference as Rakines but mough only. Whole villages of muslims were burnt down. Still Muslims should be considered as culprits. When we talk about both sides. Both sides should have same rights.Then we can compare the both sides. What will be benefit for UN, NGO and by talking bias for Rohingya.
Making Rohingya statelessness
So-called Rohingyas are the Bengali Illegals being pushed eastwards into Burma by the massive population explosion and grinding poverty in their motherland Bangladesh.
Believe it or not, Bangladesh with 160 millions is only 1/5 of Burma with 60 millions.
In 1942 during the lawlessness of WW2 they massacred nearly 100,000 Yakhine Buddhists then living at the May-yu frontier (Maungdaw-Butheetaung) and took their lands and fishing grounds by a Genocide.
First they’d tried to cut off that area (North Arakan) from Burma and joined East Pakistan (today Bangladesh) in long Mujahid Insurgency (1948-1956) after declaring they were Bengali Muslims under Pakistanese Flag, but Burmese army units led by General Tin Oo (now NLD vice Chair) destroyed them.
Since then they changed their tactics and reinvented themselves as the Rohingyas a thousand years old ethnic group of Burma and trying politically to get the control of captured north Arakan. As simple as that.
I want to ask Nay San Lwin (the guest contributor) just one question.
Were your grand parents and parents born in Burma?
I bet they were all born in India or East Pakistan (today Bangladesh)!
Kachin affair is a Bamar affair
Is Ohn (the guest contributor) from the KIA propaganda office? He sounds so awfully one-sided. Poor NM seems to have depleted all its previous Burma contributors!
Making Rohingya statelessness
I recently checked out all the radio broadcasts with the BBC/FBIS Monitoring Service Archives, but none of the references is listed and so cannot be verified. Are there other original sources?
The two documentary references are correct, though the Encylopaedia reference does not ‘conclude’ anything – the article is about the Mahu Frontier District May 1961 – Feburary 1964 and simply records the fact on Page 90 that 75% of the population in the district are ‘Rohingya’.
The British did not use the term ‘Rohingya’ during their administration of Arakan 1825-1948 and the label has been popularised only since the Mujahid rebellion 1949-1961.
My conclusion is that Burmese officials were generally reluctant to use the term. No doubt there are ‘Rohingya’ who would rather not use what has become a toxic label. A frequently repeated litany of isolated references, even if verified, only confirms that a label had been applied, not necesarily accepted.
I notice a growing reluctance by Western politicians to use the term ‘Rohingya’ or to charcterise the present communal violence as a conflict between two great religions. In his latest expression of serious concern about events, UK Foreign Secretary William Hague avoids altogether using the words ‘Rohingya’, ‘Buddhists’ and ‘Muslims’.
Polarisation designed to provoke confrontation will not help to resolve what is a very grave problem which needs external help, but not gratuitous intervention.
Making Rohingya statelessness
[…] Nay San Lwin is an activist and Vice President of the Burmese Rohingya Association in Deutschland and Director (EU Region) of the Free Rohingya Campaign (FRC). He can be reached via Twitter @nslwin Sources Here: […]
Making Rohingya statelessness
It is now like parallel rail tracks. Close together. One goes this way and the other that way.
Until both sides can merge like the waters of Chindwin and Irrawaddy at Nyaung-Oo, this riddle is not going to be solved and everyone will continue to suffer.
None of the Arakanese side protestation mentions any of the ill treatment to Rohingya and none of the Rohingya advocates ever describes “reverse-pogrom” ill and cruel acts by Rohingya towards the Arakanese. Both sides continue to show only their cowardly sides.
Until BOTH sides grow some ball and admit and acknowledge their own despicable acts, this problem will never go away.
Use of any loud advocates (UN, US, EU, HRW, AI, ABCDEFGH)of any sort is NEVER going to solve the problem. All they have done thus far has been to make things worse. As no one is presenting the real problems fairly from BOTH sides.
Everyone is justifying their own heinous act based on the similar deeds by the other side.
That is the cycle that needs stopping.
What this article does show is how tolerant and peaceful living it was possible before and can be achieved again. With true effort.
Ignorance and chauvinistic way the military has taught the populace of Burma for two decades has been the background atmosphere, but the obscene lauding by the self-serving international communities to these arch-practitioners of racism, Bamar Sit-tut in gaung-paungs, is the encouraging and sustaining factor.
As yet no one has condemned the most inhumane acts. Money vs 800,000 financially inconsequential people.
A question still has to be asked. Is the protection of the lives and properties of the people on the ground best served by claiming such and such rights because of such and such history as in a court of law to have never ending round and round talk-fest, enough of which has already been done?
What is required now is to ask and address the fear and insecurities of people on the ground and work together to solve the problems.
So far all that all the Rohingya advocates have done is like child screaming loud and telling the father of the other sibling’s ill deeds in a long, long list hoping that that father may beat the other guy up. This will help no one.
Unless the intention is to sort out the problem and not to incite more emotion and agitation by showing off the sore-eye, the problem is waiting to get bigger and bigger. No one gets a good deal out of big problem.
So enquire and address the fear and insecurities of people on the ground on BOTH sides and work together to solve these issues.
Not a single live would be saved by finding out the origin and usage of any word, “Rohingya” or “Bamar” or any other.
Kachin affair is a Bamar affair
Bamar Government unfairly criticized!
That is perfectly OK Plan B. You need not worry. No one in that government of yours understands “fair”.
In fact there was no criticism. It was stating the plain facts.
Chauvinistic Sit-tut. Sold the country to Papa cheap, still thinking it was smart. Now killing, raping, looting everything in the way.
These are facts!
Philosophically it is hard to know which way. What is best way to do if someone comes in with guns, helicopters and mines to your place which they have already pre-sold in advance to kill you? To curl up and die or fight back?
There is plenty of money around. Not because Thein Sein or Aung San Suu Kyi or any one is so great. But because there are things in Burma saleable, to make money. Whether the people of Burma want it or not never features. They certainly will spend their and their descendants’ lives in hard and harsh labour camps and rehab centres to pay back only the interest on those sacks of money everyone is drooling for.
For that amount of money, Sit-tut can buy all the armed people. That is what is supposed to be called “Peace Process”. Look at Harn Lay’s cartoon.
http://drlunswe.blogspot.co.nz/search?updated-max=2012-10-26T20:04:00%2B07:00&max-results=12
“Peace Process” is indeed “Piece Process”. Dividing the country and its wealth among the armed groups. Nothing more, nothing less. And cowardly lying to the public. And posturing like saviours. Sick! (Now, this is criticism.)
Karen armed groups want a cut from the ports, roads, rails, trading posts, exorbitant land prices, Norwegian money, and SEZ’s – disposable, indentured, labour camps- and they will copy the decadent Burmese ways now.
Even if they want to, the leadership of Kachin will not be able to sell their public to drown their entire ancestral land and having Pipes with attendant Bamar Sit-tut all over their place, even if Aung San Suu Kyi seems to give tacit blessing just like she, like Pope, gives blessings to everything this military does with or without these trendy, ridiculous lu-byat gaung-paungs.
Making Rohingya statelessness
Jeizutinbade — excellent statement. I wonder if you’d couch it in human rights when preaching to Burmese not already converted though. Is there an “underground”, subversive, support base for this view in Yangon and Mandalay?
Making Rohingya statelessness
Real truth. Excellent aritcle. May Allah give you more strength to write more like this one.
Andrew Selth’s Burma bibiliography
How comes you guys know so many books?
Now that Andrew Selth beating season has begun, a small point needs to be made.
The opening line “old Burmese proverb”, really translates as “Wisdom is in the letters”, rather than books. As all are aware, old Burma used palm leaves and metal stencil for writing, hence circular scripts.
Short of Pagan pagoda and religious stone etchings, Burmese traditionally do not believe in long standing heritage or indelible marks. Very green!
Kachin affair is a Bamar affair
It takes
1)”This Bamar government” that you have unfairly characterized, yet knowing the historical certainty of the behavior.
2)The equally irresponsible ethnic leaders that choose war over negotiation knowing the eventual quagmire of illustrated too well in the ongoing longest civil war of Bamar vs Kayin.
3)West incessant useless careless intervention of last few decades.
to arrive at this juncture.
Why that this 3 legged sustained quagmire can be now be resolve with 2 legged attribute ?
The losses among the Tamadaw is pale in comparison to the loss of #3 effect during the Nagis period where instead of pure humanitarian effort the incidence is used unprecedentedly against SPDC.
However you might be on to something when you mentioned “the worth of a citizenry” to the West be it a Bamar or a Kachin.
The ongoing animosity b/t the Muslim Rohingyas and Buddhist Yakhine is what will be driving the West policy for the near future.
A certain blind eye to this regime excesses.
Andrew Selth’s Burma bibiliography
Hi there. This is an excellent and useful reference from Dr Selth. There are a few important books that he has missed however.
A few of these are:
Ledi Sayadaw. 1915. “The Vipassana-Dipani: The Manual of Insight”.
Byles, Marie Beuzaville. 1962. “Journey Into Burmese Silence”. London: George Allen and Unwin.
There are also some recent articles published in academic journals that have been omitted- articles by Ingrid Jordt and Julianne Schober come to mind.
If anyone is interested on working on a bibliography specifically on Buddhism in Myanmar please let me know as I have a project along these lines.
My email: [email protected]
-Sophie