“When ever one nation it’s monarch loses a key piece of its national identity.”
Don’t agree. National identity, if it can be defined, is never lost, but evolves and changes, lots of things can change national identity. Interestingly, of the various nations that have decided over time that a monarch is an unwanted liability, how many of those have ever recanted and re-introduced a monarchy? England in the days of Charles 2nd (largely due to the incompetence of the Cromwell dags, and of course many people still believed in the divine right of kings back then, when people in general were quite a lot dumber and easier to hoodwink and propagandise), Spain in the 20th Century (and look at the mess the Spanish king is in right about now as a consequence of his apparent belief that he is unaccountable).
In general, countries that have got rid of the unaffordable luxury of what they perceive to be a misbehaving monarchy, do not regret that decision.
A monarchy is merely a feudal throw-back that leeches off the productivity of a nation without contributing. Most if not all of them are net burdens on the people in my view. Pretty high price to pay for a sense of ‘national identity’.
I am not sure what Ms. Thropic is trying to say. She succeeded to confuse me
is all I can say.”
Oh. Sorry about that, I thought it was plain enough for most folk.
I merely gave a list of honorable previous Thai Prime Ministers I believed to be honest and were in office to serve and not to enrich themselves. Why Ms. Thropic would digress to the subject of other more economically developed countries (for many many verying reasons I am sure which Ms. Thropic seem to pretend to completely fathom) I sincerely will not pretend ‘to cry’ a tear
for.
Ah yes, I see what has confused you. Let me explain. It is the job of a government, led by the Prime Minister (whether honest or not), to advance the nation, not merely to present the appearance of being an honest injun. Sorry if that confused you, but I suppose there are those who would point to that confusion as being indicative of a part of the Thai problem.
But what I am getting from the postings of both Ms. Thropic and Mr. Torrence is that all those honorable past Thai PMs I have cited had not contributed anything of substance to Thailand’s economic, social and/or political development.
Well, not exactly, that’s rather a sweeping and simplistic statement. What Ms Thropic was actually saying is that Thailand, despite fondly nurturing the fantasy that it isn’t in the 3rd world at all but is in fact a world leader, has actually achieved very little development as a nation compared with other, more serious
and more competent nations. Of course the other nations didn’t have the Thai King, so that was yet another obstacle for them to overcome in the process.
While Thaksin’s 4-5 years of leadership, corrupt-ridden yes but unashamed nevertheless, is the ‘enlightened’ way for Thailand. I am trying to sincerely not cry Ms. Thropic.
As you should. After Thaksin was ousted illegally by a gang of criminals led by Prem or his boss, it is the general consensus that Thailand has had a series of incompetent governments. Of course incompetence and the ability to turn anything they touch into manure is a natural talent of Thais everywhere, but even so.
The red governments of Wongsawat and Samak, were hamstrung by a corrupt iudiciary attempting to do what it thought was the King’s bidding, the Abhisit government was just a forlorn shambles, cobbled together in desperation by the army (acting on Prem’s instructions and he was acting on whose instructions I wonder?) to include the notoriously corrupt Silpa-archa mafiosi clan and the truly disgusting Newin Chidchob. In the process, of course, they all followed the Thai template of being concerned only with their own longevity rather than designing a much-needed progress to advance the Thais they represent beyond the 18th century.
And yet. And yet. Somehow, those uneducated reds still keep electing Thaksin-esque governments and the deluded, propagandised monarchists keep trying to throw them out on the basis that they actually believe the fiction that Thaksin is trying to overthrow the monarchy. A fiction generated from within the palace walls deliberately by the way, to specifically exploit the fact that Thais in general are not that bright, a fact highlighted by successive governments who seem unable to improve the quality of Thai education.
So these were the real-world facts that Ms Thropic was attempting to convey. In vain it seems. I am truly sorry that the facts or my mode of representing them, cause such confusion in your mind. I expect you’re either a Thai or one of the ‘beer-and-pussy’ brigade in Pattaya, at least that’s my working hypothesis.
The cronies or oligarchs aren’t stupid. They are hedging their bets already by making contributions to both ASSK/NLD and the 88 generation student leaders who are preparing to launch their own political party in readiness for 2015.
Their main threat however will come from the foreign investment law just put on hold by Thein Sein so protectionist clauses can be removed in order to attract FDI. They are set to face up to the reality of capitalist ‘free competition’ on a far from level playing field once their military patrons/partners decide to ditch them for ‘compelling reasons’. A schadenfreude moment perhaps.
Over in Ang Thong province is Wat Muang, situated near the main road into Ang Thong coming from Suphan Buri. They also have a “Hell World” with almost identical statues to Wat Phai Rong Wua and also have a giant seated Buddha (95m high), just like Wat Phai Rong Wua. I stumbled across Wat Muang and its Hell World back in 2008. Their website http://www.watmuang.com suggests this is a newer construction dating back less than 30 years. But does anybody know if these two sites are connected in any way? The similarity is striking. Or is this a bit of dhammic competition between two temples ?
I am not sure what Ms. Thropic is trying to say. She succeeded to confuse me is all I can say. I merely gave a list of honorable previous Thai Prime Ministers I believed to be honest and were in office to serve and not to enrich themselves. Why Ms. Thropic would digress to the subject of other more economically developed countries (for many many verying reasons I am sure which Ms. Thropic seem to pretend to completely fathom) I sincerely will not pretend ‘to cry’ a tear for.
But what I am getting from the postings of both Ms. Thropic and Mr. Torrence is that all those honorable past Thai PMs I have cited had not contributed anything of substance to Thailand’s economic, social and/or political development. While Thaksin’s 4-5 years of leadership, corrupt-ridden yes but unashamed nevertheless, is the ‘enlightened’ way for Thailand. I am trying to sincerely not cry Ms. Thropic.
som, wake up, you are living in a dream world. In the time between 1995 and 2001, it was a standing joke in all the newspapers about about how ALL the government ministers were like pigs at a feeding trough trying to rake in as much as they could get while they could, and how many months the new governments would last before they would be dissolved because of corruption, including Chuan, the way he got the economy growing was to run up a huge debt from the World Bank that the TRT got whittled down. The ones you are trying to whitewash simply had loyal fall guys to take the blame so they stayed looking good. If they were all that good they would have been firing cabinet ministers and civil servants instead of standing back and smiling for photo ops and ignoring what was going on.
Well, that’s your view and you’re entitled to it. I’m sure there will be some whose purpose it suits to agree with you, but I’m not one of them.
Acknowledging that there are none so blind as those who decide not to see, I will suggest a line of thought for your consideration – or not.
After the 2nd world war, Japan, Germany, UK, and most of Europe were close to bankruptcy.
Look where Japan is today after 65 years of enlightened leadership and national development for all Japanese. Look where Germany is today after 65 years of enlightened leadership and national development for all Germans. Look where South Korea is today after 55 years of enlightened leadership and national development for all South Koreans. Look at what China has achieved in a much shorter time.
Then look what Thailand has achieved after 65 years of its leadership. Try not to cry.
Chuan Leekpai was an honest Thai Prime Minister and though certain scandals had undone his regime, Leekpai himself had not enriched himself while in office. And PM Leekpai’s administration takes the credit for putting Thailand back on good economic footing following the 1997 financial crisis (legacy of the Chavalit-Thaksin rampant corruption and economic mismanagement).
General Prem too was above all an honest administrator and just like Chuan, or Chamlong and maybe including the Pramoj brothers Seni and Kukrij, had not personally enriched themselves or their families while in power.
But the Shinawatras (in-laws and cronies), in contrast, were a self-serving self-enriching bunch.
Democracy has no chance of flourishing or moving forward in Thailand when the people in power like Thaksin or holds to Thaksin as their inspiration.
When ever one nation it’s monarch loses a key piece of its national identity. One must look at Russia after the 1917 revolution, Russia turned into just another republic
of the Soviet Union launching it into a myriad of war, famine and repression that killed tens of millions. How can anyone say that the tsar was as bad as the death of millions across all of Europe, are these the gifts of republicanism?
Thank you for your comment. I hope that you and others may take some interest and encouragement from my writings, and I welcome any thoughts you may have.
You indeed bring up an important point about the transmission of the truth of this terrible event from one generation to the next. Of course, the ECCC and DcCam have their own outreach education programmes, but these are not enough. There must be discussion and debate over what really happened, and these must be held openly and within the communities. No doubt this will be a slow and sometimes painful process, but it is necessary in order to find peace with the past and to prevent this tragedy from being misrepresented.
Just after writing this article I found an excellent charity that conducts some very interesting work along these lines. Please see the link for more information. If anyone has had any contact with them I would be interested to hear from you.
Poor Som, seems that it’s hard for him to accept that Kuhn Prem is probably the single most corrupt and addicted-to-power political figure in Thai history. And I sometimes wonder who’s paying the salary of the young handsome “military aide” seen at Prem’s side 24/7. As for Chuan Leekpai, he presided over a never-ending corruption feast from the large-scale Phuket land thefts to the thriving Thai sex business largely owned and operated by supporters and members of the “Democrat” Party of Thailand. Nothing to do with Chuan? I didn’t realize that the Boss had no responsibility for the actions of those appointed by him, who work for him and who report to him.
As I stated elsewhere, when a blog like this becomes ‘clubby’ and ‘chummy’, when moderators post comments from one person and refuse to post similar or identical comments from another person, then the blog is effectively on its way to becoming moribund. This has happened here recently.
When a blog is so bereft of interesting articles that it resorts to re-posts and articles on ‘folk magic’ and other pap, then even the owners know its got the skids under. This is happening here right now.
I believe New Mandala will close before too long, based on precedent elsewhere. Whether the owners will get clued up in time to stop it will become apparent in due course. If they want to stop it, I will be happy to tell them how and why they are where they are and how to stop it if they write to me.
But I betcha they won’t… the loss of face would be too hard to take.
“ but you still try to fabricate a position that makes one side better than another. It doesn’t matter that thaksin was elected, what matters was that he never respected the electorate in exactly the same way as his opponents
On the contrary, I fabricate nothing. I merely point out that Thaksin was the Prime Minster, after his party was democratically elected, And Prem was the person who thought he knew better.
“Democracy for you guys is just a totem word with no meaning beyond a religious symbolic sense.
Ah. Mind-reading. Democracy is democracy. Coups are not democratic. Simple as that really.
“It doesn’t matter that thaksin was elected,”
On the contrary, its the only thing that does matter but you will not agree because you have bought into the whole propaganda thing that says he should not have been elected and should have been kicked out. It’s always tough for propagandised people to sawaang their ta’s. Fortunately the majority of Thais appear to have done so even if the majority of Pattaya-bar-stool-based foreigners haven’t. Proof of the pudding? They re-elected a Thaksin-sponsored party to government. Must have irritated Prem no end.
Oh please. The Chuam Leek[ai government was generally regarded as being corrupt, thoguh Chuan himself is (again) generally regarded as not being corrupt beyond his preparedness to accept and condone corruption in his government.
The Prem government was riddled with policy and fiscal corruption, and Prem is essentially a dishonest and corrupt man. Who on earth do you think was the fixer behind the appalling whitewashing of Nevin Chidchob in the bamboo sapling project and who do you think he was fixing for? Even Chidchob himself expected to be convicted.
The Abhisit government is generaly regarded as having been corrupt well beyond what the Thaksin government was, and the international corruption index bears this out, though Abhisit may not have been corrupt himself. Mind you, having any of the Chidchob clan in your government is almost primae facae evidence of corruption, such is their odious reputation.
The Thai people did not clamour for Thaksin’s ouster as you state. A small and venomous minority convinced the King that the Democrat party refusing to stand in the election rendered that election unconstitutional. A very dangerous suggestion indeed, and when that didn’t work, the same palace-sponsored criminals engineered a coup. Or are you suggesting that somehow the Thai people transformed themselves from wanting Thaksi out to wanting 3 Thaksin-esque governments back in after just a year? Its just a ridiculous suggestion and suggests a serious delusion.
Mind you,the government released news within the last week relating to the disturbing extent of mental disease in Thailand, and all rational folk are aware of the advanced tendency for Thais to believe their own or other people’s wet dreams, so who knows?
thanks ‘aggadassavin’, interesting paper. In short it says the following in answer to my question:
With support for opening up the economy building across the country, previously favoured businessmen and rich politicians appear to recognise that the political risks of challenging economic reform could outweigh the likely benefits. With limited options, the cronies are trying to distance themselves from their murky past and rebrand themselves as valuable contributors to the new economy. Along the way,they hope not to draw too much scrutiny about how they acquired their personal wealth and the capital that will now give them a head start.
It will be interesting to see what scrutiny (if any) comes and the current govts committment to breaking down these old networks.
No Mr. Torrence, not all Thai governments and not all Thai politicians were corrupt.
Chuan Leekpai (Democrat Party) when he was PM was not corrupt and he/his family did not personally enrich themselves while in power. So too was was General Prem when he was PM a long time ago . . he too was incorruptible and did not profit from his rule. General Chamlong, when he was Bangkok Governor, run a clean city administration and was untouched by corruption.
som, ALL Thai governments in history have been rampant in corruption, TRT was actually one of the lesser, and I read in 2004 that the DMV and land offices were being cleaned up and a lot of people got fired.
both Dem governments were worse. ” the Thai people was demanding his ouster”” is merely the Bangkok people’s way of trying to speak for the whole country
paul,
there is interesting analysis about the effect of the change of govt on cronies in the most recent ICG report: “myanmar: the politics of economic reform”.
there was jubilation in the media sector when aung kyi replaced “red ant” kyaw hsan as information minister.
I was thinking more about the consequences post 2006.
Nothing outlandish behind it. Since then all governments, including this one, have been paralysed, or incompetent, or riven with internal divisons or a mixture of all 3. With a huge amount of energy being put into the conflict and diverting attention from important issues, rather than important issues rather this manipulated pile of garbage.
The 2007 constitution severely weakens democracy in Thailand, and now the army and associated factions are stronger and more united than ever. Thaksin has won a resounding election win and he cant even enter the country now let alone run it.
I think your characterisation of pre-2001 is outlandish. Do you know when the 1997 constitution came into effect (there is a hint in there), this document, as imperfect as it proved to be was the result of years of stability and effort to create ‘real’ democracy in thailand. Thaksin strangled and weakened and stagnated democratic progress during his tenure, and the army destroyed it in 2006 (no coincidence there), nothing has gotten better since then.
The red shirts are useless, with nothing positive to offer, only negative protesting ‘against’ something never a positive suggestion of how to make things better.
Criticise sure, but respect comes when they can demonstrate they can replace it with something better.
Don’t even get me started on the UDD; the unelected upper echelons are a fraud and so cynical manipulative I can scarcely believe it.
The lower levels are a mystery all I hear is how they ‘hate’ certain figures, again nothing postive just negativity.
As imperfect pre 2001 was its better than what is in place today.
It’s got supposedly itelligent people making the argument that critisising politicians is bad for politics and undermines it, where are your brains people?
Yawn … Maybe AW should start renaming this website ‘Old’ Mandala. Ennui definitely has crept in.
AsianCorrespondent too, in my impression, had succumbed to boredom. At least BangkokPundit seems to be doing something about it with his . . . gasp, take on “Thailand’s vulva bleaching industry”.
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On Republicanism in Thailand
“When ever one nation it’s monarch loses a key piece of its national identity.”
Don’t agree. National identity, if it can be defined, is never lost, but evolves and changes, lots of things can change national identity. Interestingly, of the various nations that have decided over time that a monarch is an unwanted liability, how many of those have ever recanted and re-introduced a monarchy? England in the days of Charles 2nd (largely due to the incompetence of the Cromwell dags, and of course many people still believed in the divine right of kings back then, when people in general were quite a lot dumber and easier to hoodwink and propagandise), Spain in the 20th Century (and look at the mess the Spanish king is in right about now as a consequence of his apparent belief that he is unaccountable).
In general, countries that have got rid of the unaffordable luxury of what they perceive to be a misbehaving monarchy, do not regret that decision.
A monarchy is merely a feudal throw-back that leeches off the productivity of a nation without contributing. Most if not all of them are net burdens on the people in my view. Pretty high price to pay for a sense of ‘national identity’.
Whatever that is
Flashback to the coup
I am not sure what Ms. Thropic is trying to say. She succeeded to confuse me
is all I can say.”
Oh. Sorry about that, I thought it was plain enough for most folk.
I merely gave a list of honorable previous Thai Prime Ministers I believed to be honest and were in office to serve and not to enrich themselves. Why Ms. Thropic would digress to the subject of other more economically developed countries (for many many verying reasons I am sure which Ms. Thropic seem to pretend to completely fathom) I sincerely will not pretend ‘to cry’ a tear
for.
Ah yes, I see what has confused you. Let me explain. It is the job of a government, led by the Prime Minister (whether honest or not), to advance the nation, not merely to present the appearance of being an honest injun. Sorry if that confused you, but I suppose there are those who would point to that confusion as being indicative of a part of the Thai problem.
But what I am getting from the postings of both Ms. Thropic and Mr. Torrence is that all those honorable past Thai PMs I have cited had not contributed anything of substance to Thailand’s economic, social and/or political development.
Well, not exactly, that’s rather a sweeping and simplistic statement. What Ms Thropic was actually saying is that Thailand, despite fondly nurturing the fantasy that it isn’t in the 3rd world at all but is in fact a world leader, has actually achieved very little development as a nation compared with other, more serious
and more competent nations. Of course the other nations didn’t have the Thai King, so that was yet another obstacle for them to overcome in the process.
While Thaksin’s 4-5 years of leadership, corrupt-ridden yes but unashamed nevertheless, is the ‘enlightened’ way for Thailand. I am trying to sincerely not cry Ms. Thropic.
As you should. After Thaksin was ousted illegally by a gang of criminals led by Prem or his boss, it is the general consensus that Thailand has had a series of incompetent governments. Of course incompetence and the ability to turn anything they touch into manure is a natural talent of Thais everywhere, but even so.
The red governments of Wongsawat and Samak, were hamstrung by a corrupt iudiciary attempting to do what it thought was the King’s bidding, the Abhisit government was just a forlorn shambles, cobbled together in desperation by the army (acting on Prem’s instructions and he was acting on whose instructions I wonder?) to include the notoriously corrupt Silpa-archa mafiosi clan and the truly disgusting Newin Chidchob. In the process, of course, they all followed the Thai template of being concerned only with their own longevity rather than designing a much-needed progress to advance the Thais they represent beyond the 18th century.
And yet. And yet. Somehow, those uneducated reds still keep electing Thaksin-esque governments and the deluded, propagandised monarchists keep trying to throw them out on the basis that they actually believe the fiction that Thaksin is trying to overthrow the monarchy. A fiction generated from within the palace walls deliberately by the way, to specifically exploit the fact that Thais in general are not that bright, a fact highlighted by successive governments who seem unable to improve the quality of Thai education.
So these were the real-world facts that Ms Thropic was attempting to convey. In vain it seems. I am truly sorry that the facts or my mode of representing them, cause such confusion in your mind. I expect you’re either a Thai or one of the ‘beer-and-pussy’ brigade in Pattaya, at least that’s my working hypothesis.
я╗┐Myanmar reshuffle: the reform agenda
The cronies or oligarchs aren’t stupid. They are hedging their bets already by making contributions to both ASSK/NLD and the 88 generation student leaders who are preparing to launch their own political party in readiness for 2015.
Their main threat however will come from the foreign investment law just put on hold by Thein Sein so protectionist clauses can be removed in order to attract FDI. They are set to face up to the reality of capitalist ‘free competition’ on a far from level playing field once their military patrons/partners decide to ditch them for ‘compelling reasons’. A schadenfreude moment perhaps.
Review of The Fate of Rural Hell
Over in Ang Thong province is Wat Muang, situated near the main road into Ang Thong coming from Suphan Buri. They also have a “Hell World” with almost identical statues to Wat Phai Rong Wua and also have a giant seated Buddha (95m high), just like Wat Phai Rong Wua. I stumbled across Wat Muang and its Hell World back in 2008. Their website http://www.watmuang.com suggests this is a newer construction dating back less than 30 years. But does anybody know if these two sites are connected in any way? The similarity is striking. Or is this a bit of dhammic competition between two temples ?
Flashback to the coup
I am not sure what Ms. Thropic is trying to say. She succeeded to confuse me is all I can say. I merely gave a list of honorable previous Thai Prime Ministers I believed to be honest and were in office to serve and not to enrich themselves. Why Ms. Thropic would digress to the subject of other more economically developed countries (for many many verying reasons I am sure which Ms. Thropic seem to pretend to completely fathom) I sincerely will not pretend ‘to cry’ a tear for.
But what I am getting from the postings of both Ms. Thropic and Mr. Torrence is that all those honorable past Thai PMs I have cited had not contributed anything of substance to Thailand’s economic, social and/or political development. While Thaksin’s 4-5 years of leadership, corrupt-ridden yes but unashamed nevertheless, is the ‘enlightened’ way for Thailand. I am trying to sincerely not cry Ms. Thropic.
Flashback to the coup
som, wake up, you are living in a dream world. In the time between 1995 and 2001, it was a standing joke in all the newspapers about about how ALL the government ministers were like pigs at a feeding trough trying to rake in as much as they could get while they could, and how many months the new governments would last before they would be dissolved because of corruption, including Chuan, the way he got the economy growing was to run up a huge debt from the World Bank that the TRT got whittled down. The ones you are trying to whitewash simply had loyal fall guys to take the blame so they stayed looking good. If they were all that good they would have been firing cabinet ministers and civil servants instead of standing back and smiling for photo ops and ignoring what was going on.
Flashback to the coup
Well, that’s your view and you’re entitled to it. I’m sure there will be some whose purpose it suits to agree with you, but I’m not one of them.
Acknowledging that there are none so blind as those who decide not to see, I will suggest a line of thought for your consideration – or not.
After the 2nd world war, Japan, Germany, UK, and most of Europe were close to bankruptcy.
Look where Japan is today after 65 years of enlightened leadership and national development for all Japanese. Look where Germany is today after 65 years of enlightened leadership and national development for all Germans. Look where South Korea is today after 55 years of enlightened leadership and national development for all South Koreans. Look at what China has achieved in a much shorter time.
Then look what Thailand has achieved after 65 years of its leadership. Try not to cry.
Flashback to the coup
Chuan Leekpai was an honest Thai Prime Minister and though certain scandals had undone his regime, Leekpai himself had not enriched himself while in office. And PM Leekpai’s administration takes the credit for putting Thailand back on good economic footing following the 1997 financial crisis (legacy of the Chavalit-Thaksin rampant corruption and economic mismanagement).
General Prem too was above all an honest administrator and just like Chuan, or Chamlong and maybe including the Pramoj brothers Seni and Kukrij, had not personally enriched themselves or their families while in power.
But the Shinawatras (in-laws and cronies), in contrast, were a self-serving self-enriching bunch.
Democracy has no chance of flourishing or moving forward in Thailand when the people in power like Thaksin or holds to Thaksin as their inspiration.
On Republicanism in Thailand
When ever one nation it’s monarch loses a key piece of its national identity. One must look at Russia after the 1917 revolution, Russia turned into just another republic
of the Soviet Union launching it into a myriad of war, famine and repression that killed tens of millions. How can anyone say that the tsar was as bad as the death of millions across all of Europe, are these the gifts of republicanism?
Interview with director of Enemies of the People
Dear Piphal Engly,
Thank you for your comment. I hope that you and others may take some interest and encouragement from my writings, and I welcome any thoughts you may have.
You indeed bring up an important point about the transmission of the truth of this terrible event from one generation to the next. Of course, the ECCC and DcCam have their own outreach education programmes, but these are not enough. There must be discussion and debate over what really happened, and these must be held openly and within the communities. No doubt this will be a slow and sometimes painful process, but it is necessary in order to find peace with the past and to prevent this tragedy from being misrepresented.
Just after writing this article I found an excellent charity that conducts some very interesting work along these lines. Please see the link for more information. If anyone has had any contact with them I would be interested to hear from you.
http://www.kdei-karuna.org/program/vfkr/
Many thanks
Flashback to the coup
Poor Som, seems that it’s hard for him to accept that Kuhn Prem is probably the single most corrupt and addicted-to-power political figure in Thai history. And I sometimes wonder who’s paying the salary of the young handsome “military aide” seen at Prem’s side 24/7. As for Chuan Leekpai, he presided over a never-ending corruption feast from the large-scale Phuket land thefts to the thriving Thai sex business largely owned and operated by supporters and members of the “Democrat” Party of Thailand. Nothing to do with Chuan? I didn’t realize that the Boss had no responsibility for the actions of those appointed by him, who work for him and who report to him.
The power of spirits
Must be the first time I agree with Vichai N.
As I stated elsewhere, when a blog like this becomes ‘clubby’ and ‘chummy’, when moderators post comments from one person and refuse to post similar or identical comments from another person, then the blog is effectively on its way to becoming moribund. This has happened here recently.
When a blog is so bereft of interesting articles that it resorts to re-posts and articles on ‘folk magic’ and other pap, then even the owners know its got the skids under. This is happening here right now.
I believe New Mandala will close before too long, based on precedent elsewhere. Whether the owners will get clued up in time to stop it will become apparent in due course. If they want to stop it, I will be happy to tell them how and why they are where they are and how to stop it if they write to me.
But I betcha they won’t… the loss of face would be too hard to take.
Thaksin and the palace
“ but you still try to fabricate a position that makes one side better than another. It doesn’t matter that thaksin was elected, what matters was that he never respected the electorate in exactly the same way as his opponents
On the contrary, I fabricate nothing. I merely point out that Thaksin was the Prime Minster, after his party was democratically elected, And Prem was the person who thought he knew better.
“Democracy for you guys is just a totem word with no meaning beyond a religious symbolic sense.
Ah. Mind-reading. Democracy is democracy. Coups are not democratic. Simple as that really.
“It doesn’t matter that thaksin was elected,”
On the contrary, its the only thing that does matter but you will not agree because you have bought into the whole propaganda thing that says he should not have been elected and should have been kicked out. It’s always tough for propagandised people to sawaang their ta’s. Fortunately the majority of Thais appear to have done so even if the majority of Pattaya-bar-stool-based foreigners haven’t. Proof of the pudding? They re-elected a Thaksin-sponsored party to government. Must have irritated Prem no end.
Flashback to the coup
Oh please. The Chuam Leek[ai government was generally regarded as being corrupt, thoguh Chuan himself is (again) generally regarded as not being corrupt beyond his preparedness to accept and condone corruption in his government.
The Prem government was riddled with policy and fiscal corruption, and Prem is essentially a dishonest and corrupt man. Who on earth do you think was the fixer behind the appalling whitewashing of Nevin Chidchob in the bamboo sapling project and who do you think he was fixing for? Even Chidchob himself expected to be convicted.
The Abhisit government is generaly regarded as having been corrupt well beyond what the Thaksin government was, and the international corruption index bears this out, though Abhisit may not have been corrupt himself. Mind you, having any of the Chidchob clan in your government is almost primae facae evidence of corruption, such is their odious reputation.
The Thai people did not clamour for Thaksin’s ouster as you state. A small and venomous minority convinced the King that the Democrat party refusing to stand in the election rendered that election unconstitutional. A very dangerous suggestion indeed, and when that didn’t work, the same palace-sponsored criminals engineered a coup. Or are you suggesting that somehow the Thai people transformed themselves from wanting Thaksi out to wanting 3 Thaksin-esque governments back in after just a year? Its just a ridiculous suggestion and suggests a serious delusion.
Mind you,the government released news within the last week relating to the disturbing extent of mental disease in Thailand, and all rational folk are aware of the advanced tendency for Thais to believe their own or other people’s wet dreams, so who knows?
я╗┐Myanmar reshuffle: the reform agenda
thanks ‘aggadassavin’, interesting paper. In short it says the following in answer to my question:
With support for opening up the economy building across the country, previously favoured businessmen and rich politicians appear to recognise that the political risks of challenging economic reform could outweigh the likely benefits. With limited options, the cronies are trying to distance themselves from their murky past and rebrand themselves as valuable contributors to the new economy. Along the way,they hope not to draw too much scrutiny about how they acquired their personal wealth and the capital that will now give them a head start.
It will be interesting to see what scrutiny (if any) comes and the current govts committment to breaking down these old networks.
Thanks, Paul
Flashback to the coup
No Mr. Torrence, not all Thai governments and not all Thai politicians were corrupt.
Chuan Leekpai (Democrat Party) when he was PM was not corrupt and he/his family did not personally enrich themselves while in power. So too was was General Prem when he was PM a long time ago . . he too was incorruptible and did not profit from his rule. General Chamlong, when he was Bangkok Governor, run a clean city administration and was untouched by corruption.
Flashback to the coup
som, ALL Thai governments in history have been rampant in corruption, TRT was actually one of the lesser, and I read in 2004 that the DMV and land offices were being cleaned up and a lot of people got fired.
both Dem governments were worse. ” the Thai people was demanding his ouster”” is merely the Bangkok people’s way of trying to speak for the whole country
я╗┐Myanmar reshuffle: the reform agenda
paul,
there is interesting analysis about the effect of the change of govt on cronies in the most recent ICG report: “myanmar: the politics of economic reform”.
there was jubilation in the media sector when aung kyi replaced “red ant” kyaw hsan as information minister.
Thaksin and the palace
I was thinking more about the consequences post 2006.
Nothing outlandish behind it. Since then all governments, including this one, have been paralysed, or incompetent, or riven with internal divisons or a mixture of all 3. With a huge amount of energy being put into the conflict and diverting attention from important issues, rather than important issues rather this manipulated pile of garbage.
The 2007 constitution severely weakens democracy in Thailand, and now the army and associated factions are stronger and more united than ever. Thaksin has won a resounding election win and he cant even enter the country now let alone run it.
I think your characterisation of pre-2001 is outlandish. Do you know when the 1997 constitution came into effect (there is a hint in there), this document, as imperfect as it proved to be was the result of years of stability and effort to create ‘real’ democracy in thailand. Thaksin strangled and weakened and stagnated democratic progress during his tenure, and the army destroyed it in 2006 (no coincidence there), nothing has gotten better since then.
The red shirts are useless, with nothing positive to offer, only negative protesting ‘against’ something never a positive suggestion of how to make things better.
Criticise sure, but respect comes when they can demonstrate they can replace it with something better.
Don’t even get me started on the UDD; the unelected upper echelons are a fraud and so cynical manipulative I can scarcely believe it.
The lower levels are a mystery all I hear is how they ‘hate’ certain figures, again nothing postive just negativity.
As imperfect pre 2001 was its better than what is in place today.
It’s got supposedly itelligent people making the argument that critisising politicians is bad for politics and undermines it, where are your brains people?
The power of spirits
Yawn … Maybe AW should start renaming this website ‘Old’ Mandala. Ennui definitely has crept in.
AsianCorrespondent too, in my impression, had succumbed to boredom. At least BangkokPundit seems to be doing something about it with his . . . gasp, take on “Thailand’s vulva bleaching industry”.