The point several people seem to be missing is that a photograph of King Bhumibol is no longer a unifying and universally accepted symbol of Thai national pride.
Thailand is bitterly divided over the behaviour and influence of its royal family and their appropriate role in the 21st century. Wherever you personally stand in that debate, you can’t pretend it’s not taking place.
The results of the 2007 constitutional referendum and the 2011 general election clearly showed how conflicted Thailand is over the monarchy and demonstrated that millions of Thais are uneasy with the current actions of the palace.
In that context, holding a photograph of Bhumibol on the Olympic podium is an inherently political act.
It’s quite different from wrapping oneself in a national flag because in most countries (there are exceptions) the national flag is not a contested or divisive symbol.
Vichai N #18 tried to lamely laugh off the question of whether it would be appropriate to hold a photograph of Thaksin Shinawatra on the podium and suggested that I must be “Red” for asking it. Areepan Zielonka #23 said holding a photograph of Thaksin would be inappropriate because he is a politician, while the king is non-political and loved by all Thais. Both seem to be (either wilfully or out of genuine ignorance) missing the key point that the palace is a profoundly controversial player in contemporary Thai politics. So let me say it again: whether you personally love the king or not, you cannot be taken seriously in a debate about Thai politics in 2012 if you pretend the debate about the monarchy is not taking place at all.
Like many others who have posted above, I hope Khun Pimsiri keeps her medal, and I regard it as extremely unlikely that she will be stripped of it. But I also hope the episode is a wake-up call for Thai officials that ends the practice of pressuring Thai athletes to clutch Bhumibol’s photograph.
The issue of whether it’s right or wrong to strip an athlete of a medal for an overt political or religious display is a separate one. As has been observed by other contributors to this discussion, it certainly has not been consistently applied in the history of the Olympics. The claim that politics is absent from international sport is as absurd as the claim that the Thai monarchy is apolitical. But whatever one’s views on whether athletes should be allowed to make political statements, let’s be clear that holding a photograph of Thailand’s king in 2012 is a political act.
I’ll end with another question (and I hope Vichai N finds it as amusing as my previous one). If a Thai medal winner who personally does not love the king were to hold up an anti-monarchist image (a picture of Khun Saab Sueng, for example) or an anti-112 symbol on the Olympic podium, would that be appropriate too? Or is it only acceptable to display support for King Bhumibol but not opposition to him?
Areepan 23 – “It’s funny by the way how you compare someone who have been working hard for the country (that’s why we love him not just because he’s a “king”) to another person who took advantage as much as he could while he got the power for himself and his family.”
Just an FYI, the King is mentioned *exactly* 200 times in the 2007 Constitution. Each instance grants him absolute power over nearly every action the elected government can make.
You might want to ask yourself where the King gets his money from, given he is the richest monarch in the world. You don’t get rich by giving.
I think it would be good if the Olympics abolished team sports and national identification and went for the true expression of the motto “Faster, Higher, Stronger” and admitted athletes to the competition only on the basis of that. Even if all the swimming golds were won by Americans, even if only the Swiss won all the down hill slaloms. And any competitor should be allowed to express themselves politically in whatever way they wish.
One of the great moments in Olympic history was the black power salute of the Gold and Silver US winners in Mexico 1968. And it was also good that they talked to the Australian bronze medallist beforehand about what they were going to do. And he was with them.
Jesse, I don’t know why you’ve got it in for Australians so much. If they want to hold up a picture of the Queen of Australia or The King of Thailand or Kyle Sandilands or Julia Gillard, then I think they should be free to do so.
I’m not quite sure how Patrick Jory’s idea that there should be free and open discussion of the success or failure of royal projects amounts to a call for bloody revolution.
I think Patrick is arguing for free and open discussion. If asking for that means that bloody revolution will ensue, i don’t think it is Patrick’s fault.
And Keith Barney, those were interesting references and it is good to see that the royal projects are being discussed. But I wonder how much critical discussion happens in Thai journals.
Re: Andrew MacGregor Marshall // Aug 11, 2012 at 6:21 pm
You asked “If a Thai Olympian was so overcome with emotion that they proudly hoisted a photo of Thaksin Shinawatra while on the podium, would you regard this as acceptable”
The answer is “No, it’s not acceptable because he was a politician and it would count as a propaganda as his sister is a present Thai prime minister.”
It’s funny by the way how you compare someone who have been working hard for the country (that’s why we love him not just because he’s a “king”) to another person who took advantage as much as he could while he got the power for himself and his family.
This is about what is in Pimsiri Sirikaew’s mind about the matter. Nothing else is really important, especially comments from a group of people who are speculating about the Thai psych with their imposed values upon the matter. A sporting event is turned into a political commentary just because a picture of the King in Thailand is one of the symbols of nationhood. One can spin many a yarn to justify their comments either way. People display a lot of emotion at the Olympics like stacking on turns if something goes wrong, and nobody is going around saying farangs are spoilt brats, etc. No one is saying the winners of some of the sprints are arrogant because of the shows they put on after they win a medal.
Maybe the intent of the article was to provoke political comment.
So lets be consistent here. The winner of the women’s 5000m showed a religious picture after winning and the last Brit in during the Men’s 50km walk carried the Union Jack the last 300m of the race. Throw them all out for showing emotion and lets keep the hatred up in our comments. The comments say more about the agendas of the writers than the agenda of Pimsiri Sirikaew.
Perhaps if Pimsiri Sirikaew was educated with a PhD I would be much harder upon him, but I only see him as a product of his culture.
Save the hate and cries for justice for all the wrongs for another forum.
“The tradition that makes Thai people so lovable. ”
…
… Either my racism radar just went off big time, or i just get a serious cringe attack and just want to go hide somewhere far away… 😉
…anyhow, back in 2010 i have photographed a group of pink shirted people led by Dr. Tul with the same lovable gesture of holding up the King’s picture, just before they proceeded in an attempted lynching of a few Red Shirts that happened to pass by that lovable meeting of ultra-royalists.
Times have changed in Thailand since Somluck Kamsing won the first Olympic gold medal for Thailand and displayed the same gesture, and where apart from very small circles in educated elites Thai society then did not question the monarchy.
Now there are large sectors of Thai society that indeed have begun criticizing the institution. In this light we have to look at such such gestures now also in terms of social pressure – are these gestures still a sign of expression of love, or mandatory for an athlete who wants to continue receiving the necessary state support?
While it would be perfectly permissible for an athlete to show his love for the king – part of democracy and freedom of speech and thought is also that royalist Thais are allowed to love their king, what would happen if a winning athlete would decide not to perform this gesture?
Could we one day a similar situation in sports such as the Chotisak Onsoong ‘he who did not stand up’ situation, in which one person (backed by many others) felt it was unlawful enough to file a lese majeste case when another Thai did not publicly show the necessary love and respect?
Where is the line between expression of love and social pressure in today’s Thailand?
What I’d like to be able to say had already been said by AMM.
RK is right in saying military figures have dominated the majority of Thai amateur sport associations for a long time. I tend to believe that photo showing nonsense in the history of Thailand’s participation in international sport events, including the current Olympic, has most likely been dictated by these retarded bosses.
“If a Thai Olympian was so overcome with emotion that they proudly hoisted a photo of Thaksin Shinawatra while on the podium, would you regard this as acceptable or not?”
Are you serious about this question Andrew McGregor Marshall?
I’ll take this as Red humor . . . and it is very very funny! And yes personally to me it is acceptable . . . I am giggling with approval.
“This is a very respectful gesture on her part. The tradition that makes Thai people so lovable. ”
Thanks for giving me a “Go to bed with a big smile” memory. Lovable…hmmm…not my first choice of words. Self-infatuated, certainly.
Lovable?………..555555555555555555555555555555555555555555555555555555555555555555555555555555555555
zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz
Jesse, Thais are indeed lovable on the first visit, why is it that it starts to rub off on consequent trips? Many Thais are nice but it is a cultural affectation and often not genuine. Most Aussies hate Julia Gillard and also hated Hanson albeit for different reasons, silly comment from someone unused to free speech.
As to the photo, if I was a Thai athlete I would hold it up, to not do could be misconstrued and unhelpful on the return home.
Jesse,
The blood curdling comments from the PAD supporters, the attacks on the Nitirat group and the downright hatred eminating from the PAD, military and elite towards everyone who disagrees with them belies your statement about lovable Thais.
This is a very respectful gesture on her part. The tradition that makes Thai people so lovable.
Something like this would never happen to those Australians. Can you imagine them holding Julia Gillard’s picture ? I bet they chant the names of King Kyle Sandilands or Pauline Hanson !
“I could fully understand Thai Olympians being so overcome with the emotion of winning silver or gold medals for their country as to proudly hoist up a photo of their Beloved King.”
If a Thai Olympian was so overcome with emotion that they proudly hoisted a photo of Thaksin Shinawatra while on the podium, would you regard this as acceptable or not?
If not, please explain the difference to us. They are both very wealthy figures who command significant support among Thais but are also profoundly divisive. Both are central players in the political game. So I’m intrigued to hear your explanation.
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Thailand’s silver snatched?
The point several people seem to be missing is that a photograph of King Bhumibol is no longer a unifying and universally accepted symbol of Thai national pride.
Thailand is bitterly divided over the behaviour and influence of its royal family and their appropriate role in the 21st century. Wherever you personally stand in that debate, you can’t pretend it’s not taking place.
The results of the 2007 constitutional referendum and the 2011 general election clearly showed how conflicted Thailand is over the monarchy and demonstrated that millions of Thais are uneasy with the current actions of the palace.
In that context, holding a photograph of Bhumibol on the Olympic podium is an inherently political act.
It’s quite different from wrapping oneself in a national flag because in most countries (there are exceptions) the national flag is not a contested or divisive symbol.
Vichai N #18 tried to lamely laugh off the question of whether it would be appropriate to hold a photograph of Thaksin Shinawatra on the podium and suggested that I must be “Red” for asking it. Areepan Zielonka #23 said holding a photograph of Thaksin would be inappropriate because he is a politician, while the king is non-political and loved by all Thais. Both seem to be (either wilfully or out of genuine ignorance) missing the key point that the palace is a profoundly controversial player in contemporary Thai politics. So let me say it again: whether you personally love the king or not, you cannot be taken seriously in a debate about Thai politics in 2012 if you pretend the debate about the monarchy is not taking place at all.
Like many others who have posted above, I hope Khun Pimsiri keeps her medal, and I regard it as extremely unlikely that she will be stripped of it. But I also hope the episode is a wake-up call for Thai officials that ends the practice of pressuring Thai athletes to clutch Bhumibol’s photograph.
The issue of whether it’s right or wrong to strip an athlete of a medal for an overt political or religious display is a separate one. As has been observed by other contributors to this discussion, it certainly has not been consistently applied in the history of the Olympics. The claim that politics is absent from international sport is as absurd as the claim that the Thai monarchy is apolitical. But whatever one’s views on whether athletes should be allowed to make political statements, let’s be clear that holding a photograph of Thailand’s king in 2012 is a political act.
I’ll end with another question (and I hope Vichai N finds it as amusing as my previous one). If a Thai medal winner who personally does not love the king were to hold up an anti-monarchist image (a picture of Khun Saab Sueng, for example) or an anti-112 symbol on the Olympic podium, would that be appropriate too? Or is it only acceptable to display support for King Bhumibol but not opposition to him?
Thailand’s silver snatched?
Can you imagine the political fallout in Thailand if the medalist is denied the medal for holding up a picture of you know who?
Thailand’s silver snatched?
Areepan 23 – “It’s funny by the way how you compare someone who have been working hard for the country (that’s why we love him not just because he’s a “king”) to another person who took advantage as much as he could while he got the power for himself and his family.”
Just an FYI, the King is mentioned *exactly* 200 times in the 2007 Constitution. Each instance grants him absolute power over nearly every action the elected government can make.
You might want to ask yourself where the King gets his money from, given he is the richest monarch in the world. You don’t get rich by giving.
Thailand’s silver snatched?
I think it would be good if the Olympics abolished team sports and national identification and went for the true expression of the motto “Faster, Higher, Stronger” and admitted athletes to the competition only on the basis of that. Even if all the swimming golds were won by Americans, even if only the Swiss won all the down hill slaloms. And any competitor should be allowed to express themselves politically in whatever way they wish.
One of the great moments in Olympic history was the black power salute of the Gold and Silver US winners in Mexico 1968. And it was also good that they talked to the Australian bronze medallist beforehand about what they were going to do. And he was with them.
Jesse, I don’t know why you’ve got it in for Australians so much. If they want to hold up a picture of the Queen of Australia or The King of Thailand or Kyle Sandilands or Julia Gillard, then I think they should be free to do so.
Thai Studies in the Shadow of (Self) Censorship
“People demand freedom of speech as a compensation for the freedom of thought which they seldom use,” – Soren Kierkegaard
Jennifer, despite his reputation, I think Soren was wrong here. People demand freedom of speech because without it there is no freedom of thought.
Still, he put it catchily.
Developing the monarchy
Indo,
I’m not quite sure how Patrick Jory’s idea that there should be free and open discussion of the success or failure of royal projects amounts to a call for bloody revolution.
I think Patrick is arguing for free and open discussion. If asking for that means that bloody revolution will ensue, i don’t think it is Patrick’s fault.
And Keith Barney, those were interesting references and it is good to see that the royal projects are being discussed. But I wonder how much critical discussion happens in Thai journals.
Thailand’s silver snatched?
Vichai N,
You are totally wrong. The majority of Thai people prefer Thaksin to any other person in Thailand. It’s the truth.
Thailand’s silver snatched?
Re: Andrew MacGregor Marshall // Aug 11, 2012 at 6:21 pm
You asked “If a Thai Olympian was so overcome with emotion that they proudly hoisted a photo of Thaksin Shinawatra while on the podium, would you regard this as acceptable”
The answer is “No, it’s not acceptable because he was a politician and it would count as a propaganda as his sister is a present Thai prime minister.”
It’s funny by the way how you compare someone who have been working hard for the country (that’s why we love him not just because he’s a “king”) to another person who took advantage as much as he could while he got the power for himself and his family.
Life at Burma’s Defence Services Academy
Dear Editor
You might like to taking care of above two comments with explicit language.
I’m not a fan of military but I believe in reason rather than emotion.
I hope you’ll agree with me in curbing inappropriate language on your site.
(Please note that I’m not an anonymous person as some might think and I do take responsibility for my words).
Thailand’s silver snatched?
This is about what is in Pimsiri Sirikaew’s mind about the matter. Nothing else is really important, especially comments from a group of people who are speculating about the Thai psych with their imposed values upon the matter. A sporting event is turned into a political commentary just because a picture of the King in Thailand is one of the symbols of nationhood. One can spin many a yarn to justify their comments either way. People display a lot of emotion at the Olympics like stacking on turns if something goes wrong, and nobody is going around saying farangs are spoilt brats, etc. No one is saying the winners of some of the sprints are arrogant because of the shows they put on after they win a medal.
Maybe the intent of the article was to provoke political comment.
So lets be consistent here. The winner of the women’s 5000m showed a religious picture after winning and the last Brit in during the Men’s 50km walk carried the Union Jack the last 300m of the race. Throw them all out for showing emotion and lets keep the hatred up in our comments. The comments say more about the agendas of the writers than the agenda of Pimsiri Sirikaew.
Perhaps if Pimsiri Sirikaew was educated with a PhD I would be much harder upon him, but I only see him as a product of his culture.
Save the hate and cries for justice for all the wrongs for another forum.
Thailand’s silver snatched?
“Jesse”:
“The tradition that makes Thai people so lovable. ”
…
… Either my racism radar just went off big time, or i just get a serious cringe attack and just want to go hide somewhere far away… 😉
…anyhow, back in 2010 i have photographed a group of pink shirted people led by Dr. Tul with the same lovable gesture of holding up the King’s picture, just before they proceeded in an attempted lynching of a few Red Shirts that happened to pass by that lovable meeting of ultra-royalists.
Times have changed in Thailand since Somluck Kamsing won the first Olympic gold medal for Thailand and displayed the same gesture, and where apart from very small circles in educated elites Thai society then did not question the monarchy.
Now there are large sectors of Thai society that indeed have begun criticizing the institution. In this light we have to look at such such gestures now also in terms of social pressure – are these gestures still a sign of expression of love, or mandatory for an athlete who wants to continue receiving the necessary state support?
While it would be perfectly permissible for an athlete to show his love for the king – part of democracy and freedom of speech and thought is also that royalist Thais are allowed to love their king, what would happen if a winning athlete would decide not to perform this gesture?
Could we one day a similar situation in sports such as the Chotisak Onsoong ‘he who did not stand up’ situation, in which one person (backed by many others) felt it was unlawful enough to file a lese majeste case when another Thai did not publicly show the necessary love and respect?
Where is the line between expression of love and social pressure in today’s Thailand?
Thailand’s silver snatched?
Pushed the ‘Submit’ button too soon.
I don’t agree with depriving this young athlete of her hard earned medal though.
Thailand’s silver snatched?
What I’d like to be able to say had already been said by AMM.
RK is right in saying military figures have dominated the majority of Thai amateur sport associations for a long time. I tend to believe that photo showing nonsense in the history of Thailand’s participation in international sport events, including the current Olympic, has most likely been dictated by these retarded bosses.
Thailand’s silver snatched?
“If a Thai Olympian was so overcome with emotion that they proudly hoisted a photo of Thaksin Shinawatra while on the podium, would you regard this as acceptable or not?”
Are you serious about this question Andrew McGregor Marshall?
I’ll take this as Red humor . . . and it is very very funny! And yes personally to me it is acceptable . . . I am giggling with approval.
Thailand’s silver snatched?
“This is a very respectful gesture on her part. The tradition that makes Thai people so lovable. ”
Thanks for giving me a “Go to bed with a big smile” memory. Lovable…hmmm…not my first choice of words. Self-infatuated, certainly.
Lovable?………..555555555555555555555555555555555555555555555555555555555555555555555555555555555555
zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz
Thailand’s silver snatched?
Jesse, Thais are indeed lovable on the first visit, why is it that it starts to rub off on consequent trips? Many Thais are nice but it is a cultural affectation and often not genuine. Most Aussies hate Julia Gillard and also hated Hanson albeit for different reasons, silly comment from someone unused to free speech.
As to the photo, if I was a Thai athlete I would hold it up, to not do could be misconstrued and unhelpful on the return home.
Thailand’s silver snatched?
Jesse,
The blood curdling comments from the PAD supporters, the attacks on the Nitirat group and the downright hatred eminating from the PAD, military and elite towards everyone who disagrees with them belies your statement about lovable Thais.
Thailand’s silver snatched?
This is a very respectful gesture on her part. The tradition that makes Thai people so lovable.
Something like this would never happen to those Australians. Can you imagine them holding Julia Gillard’s picture ? I bet they chant the names of King Kyle Sandilands or Pauline Hanson !
Thai Studies in the Shadow of (Self) Censorship
“People demand freedom of speech as a compensation for the freedom of thought which they seldom use,” – Soren Kierkegaard
Thailand’s silver snatched?
Vichai N #10
“I could fully understand Thai Olympians being so overcome with the emotion of winning silver or gold medals for their country as to proudly hoist up a photo of their Beloved King.”
If a Thai Olympian was so overcome with emotion that they proudly hoisted a photo of Thaksin Shinawatra while on the podium, would you regard this as acceptable or not?
If not, please explain the difference to us. They are both very wealthy figures who command significant support among Thais but are also profoundly divisive. Both are central players in the political game. So I’m intrigued to hear your explanation.