Nature & nurture, not nature v nurture. Couldn’t agree more. Religion also is an admixture of both I guess though converts may be in a slightly different category.
Should we now reconcile ourselves to Muslim as a race, no longer just a religion? It’s followers to all intents and purposes seem to think so, though it hasn’t stopped wars like Iran-Iraq or internecine wars within Iraq, Afghanistan, Libya, Egypt, Syria…..
Have we here witnessed other Buddhists in the region joining in the fray? Any assistance in funds or arms in the offing? Is it a level playing field in that sense?
Excellent review. I agree that the book does not tackle the ways in which representations from the palace are actually received. I think it’s important to note that some aspects of the cult are not transmitted through the agency of the state, but nurtured from the ground up so to speak.
The book actually is widely available in Thailand, much to my initial surprise.
Ohn (130). To ascribe human behaviour to “attitude” and “desire” is a bit of a dead end. In order to get somewhere we need to look at genetic inheritance and environment. We can’t change genetic inheritance, but studying it informs us of the nature of the starting material and the problems it may give us, as we change our cultural environment to shape human behaviour into forms that allow us to live more peacefully and sustainably with each other and with our fellow creatures on the earth.
“Photographs should be properly lit, in focus and correctly framed. Otherwise they should not be published, especially by a respectable university blog.”
These ideas are quite antiquated, and have already been for the past 80 odd years, in which techniques such as solarization, etc, have already been experimented with by the avantgarde artists/photographers such as Man Ray. Creative use of out-of-focus are standard repertoire of every photography student, and have over the past decades even made it occasionally into the selections of the in creative terms incredibly conservative wire services.
In creative photography anything goes if it serves the purpose of the artist.
Coles’ main inspiration in painting is expressionism, and so it seems also in his photos, using techniques that were popular in the exact same period by avantgarde photographers.
I thing most commentators here seem to forget that Chris Coles is not a documentary photographer, journalist or similar, but an artist – and therefore this is an entirely personal interpretation of what impressed his senses. His work has to be seen in this context, and cannot and should not be mistaken for a journalistic or documentary article on Phnom Penh.
Sorry, Jon. My response to you got drowned out by Mandy/Menhdi’s diarrhoeal flow I reckon.
No scholar of Bur. Lit. me. But Ko Htay in his comment #17 of the aforementioned thread has kindly given us a taste of U Ponnya’s no holds barred wit regardless of the royal personage involved, King Mindon’s brother Kanaung, in his face as it were.
My thanks also to the link he provided to Bhamo Sayadaw notorious for his brutal directness in the rhyming notes he was known to drop (rather like poison pen letters). An abbot and royal teacher, he was once banished by King Mindon for one of his misdemeanors, but not on the occasion he executed a perfect put down on the king himself. No pulling punches this bolshie monk.
Sean hit the nail on the head. Coles version of nighttime Phnom Penh is full of wildly over-romanticized cliches. In actual fact, the reality of Phnom Penh at night is far more dingy, more desperate, has more trash and is much darker than Coles whitewashed, romanticized photos and maudlin, sentimental white bread descriptions would have us believe.
To be fair, there is hardly ever religion based problem. As all religions of any sort require human to interpret them or keep them as hereditary tradition.
By definition, religion cannot be evidence- based however scientific one wants to be.
On the other hand, poor religion, it is usually used or abused by people to their own end.
So it is about people involved and their attitude and desire rather tan any particular religion really.
Mandy (a) Nyunt OO swe (125). For the squabbling people to be reconciled they will need to abandon their religion-based cultures and embrace a culture of belief based on evidence. It is relatively easy for people from different backgrounds to agree about something when the evidence is laid out, and they base their belief on the evidence. It is much more difficult for a person believing one kind of foolish nonsense to be reconciled with another who believes conflicting foolish nonsense. Usually they end up bashing each other over the head.
8888 Generation Student Leaders, Ko Mya Aye,Ko Ko Gyi, Min Ko Naing Spoke on Bengali Rohingya and the Current Riots in Burma-english
Ko Ko Gyi: Unless inevitable, we tried to avoid some issues patiently. Now it is time that we announce our view on Rohingya clearly. Rohingya is not one of the ethnic groups of Myanmar at all. We see that the riot happening currently in Buthedaung and Maungdaw of Arakan State is because of the illegal immigrants from Bangladesh called “Rohingya” and mischievous provocation of some international communities. Therefore, such interfering efforts by some powerful nations on this issue (Rohingya issue), without fully understanding the ethnic groups and other situations of Burma, will be viewed as offending the sovereignty of our nation. Genetically, culturally and linguistically Rohingya is not absolutely related to any ethnicity in Myanmar. In terms of citizenship, I would state separately. As we share the borders with other countries, we have some Chinese and Indian descents. They have been living in our country for generations and citizenship has been granted to them. We do not discriminate based on any race for granting the citizenship even if he is a Bengali. They should be protected in the same way as citizens of Myanmar.But, if we were forcefully pressured to accept Rohigya as one of the ethnic groups (of Burma), we won’t tolerate that. Even in America, to get the citizenship, people are tested on how well they know English language, how much they know about the culture of the country, and how long they have been living in the country, through the interviews. http://democracyforburma.wordpress.com/2012/06/12/8888-generation-student-leaders-ko-mya-ayeko-ko-gyi-min-ko-naing-spoke-on-bengali-rohingya-and-the-current-riots-in-burma-english/
Among and after these debates, has any kind of strategy been forged yet that provides a plan of action, a structure to carry it out, and assigned parties to accomplish the task? That is, are protests and letters going to continue to be the main method of objection, or is someone going to take these vital issues into the Thai courts?
I do not think Buddha preached his followers to convert others with swords, try to breed as much as possible to get control of wombs of followers and unbelievers, try to act coy while own followers in the house of war is weak, and act tough and invade when own community of believers become a majority mob, nor he asked to kill those who do not believe his preachings. And he might have forgotten to tax other religions with extra tax. He did not bother to control the chasty of the womb of the women as he is not kind of guy who got into underwears.
Stop bringing in religion, this is a land invasion by illegals who has the mindset of animals.
Despite the arguments on who had triggered the communal violence, the plight of the Rohingya is real. The racism is real.
And the fact that it is the Muslim Rohingya who must flee for safety also speak volumes about the situation there.
..
“Unless the world applies pressure on Myanmar to review its inhumane treatment of the Rohingya, and unless the government cracks down on human traffickers and corrupt officials, the tragedies of the Rohingya boat people will never end. The sad possibility is that world is likely to look the other way, given the vast economic potential which Myanmar holds.”
—————————————————–
“People feel it very acceptable to say that ‘We will work on wiping out all the Rohingyas,'” said Debbie Stothard, an activist with the Alternative ASEAN Network on Burma, referring to hyperbolic Internet comments she called “disturbing.”
“On Thursday, Rakhine state was reportedly calm. But Rohingyas living there “very much feel like they’re trapped in a box,” said Phil Robertson of Human Rights Watch. “They’re surrounded by enemies, and there is an extremely high level of frustration.””
“Across the border in Bangladesh, civilians – not the government – are more tolerant. But even there, Rohingyas are largely unwanted because their presence in the overpopulated country only adds to competition for scarce resources and jobs.”
MY COMMENT: Good to know that the civilains in bangladesh are more civilized than the civilians in Arakan and in fact in Burma.
“Rohingyas must get government permission to travel outside their own villages and to marry. Apparently concerned about population growth, authorities have barred Rohingyas from having more than two children.”
MY COMMENT: I am impressed with huffingtonpost. I now understand a friend of mine in San Francisco bnay Area uses this news source as his promary newspaper.
“In 1978, Myanmar’s army drove more than 200,000 Rohingyas into Bangladesh, according to rights groups and the U.S. Campaign for Burma. Some 10,000 died in squalid conditions, and the rest returned to Myanmar. The campaign was repeated in 1991-1992, and again a majority returned.”
“Prominent Burmese language journals have reported “only the Rakhine side,” Sai Latt said. And many people have lashed out at foreign media, accusing them of getting the story wrong.”
“The Rohingya speak a Bengali dialect similar to one spoken by residents of southern Bangladesh. And physically, they are almost indistinguishable from their Bangladeshi counterparts, said Lewa, of the Arakan Project.
But their history – specifically the amount of time they’ve lived in Myanmar, and who among them qualifies as a legitimate resident – is bitterly disputed.”
[Associated Press writers Xinyan Yu, Jocelyn Gecker and Grant Peck in Bangkok and Frank Jordans in Geneva contributed to this report.]
My Comment: No wonder that huffingtonpost got the facts accurate; it uses AP News Agency as its source.
Leaving the farm is an inevitable consequence of economic development.
A country where the majority of the people are working in agriculture is a poor country. There is no way around this unless it exports enormous amount of food.
In all developed economies, less than 5% of the labor force are working in agriculture. Most of these still produce more food than they consume.
For those who believe in the “good old days”, remember that life expectancy in Thailand (and most of the world) was about 30 years until the beginning of the 20th century.
I must say I agree with Jon Wright 100%. Grammar is very important, a priority in fact, and all sentences and thoughts should end with a simple period. I know that the university Jon works as an Asia recruiter for, Cardiff University, (the most highly-ranked university in Wales), would never accept any student who was not capable of writing English with proper grammar. And anyone who wishes to express themselves properly should be straightforward and clear rather than enigmatic, poetic or ambiguous.
Anthony makes a very good point as well. If you can’t think of something nice to say about Cambodia, it’s better to not say anything at all. After all, Cambodia has enough problems with its international image already. No need make it worse.
Nontok, while he leaves out mentioning the many photos in Coles essay that are not about Expats and bars, is also correct. Photographs should be properly lit, in focus and correctly framed. Otherwise they should not be published, especially by a respectable university blog. It is a poor example for that university’s students to think photographs can be blurry, grainy, and hard to look at.
And kudos to Donovan Eiry for pointing out that the view of Phnom Penh at night that Coles presents is completely fabricated and exaggerated. All the photos of stray dogs, dark streets, neon signs, messy street markets, tuk tuks, large SUVs, Big Man statues, Cambodian weddings, Chinese men gambling, bars, strange Expats and piles of garbage do not exist in the lovely, picturesque and pleasant sunlight of daytime Phnom Penh.
If Ashin Wirathu preaches extremism in the name of protecting ‘race and religion’, he doesn’t understand what Buddha taught. Instead of being racist minded, if he spent some time learning the real Buddhism and the real Islam, he would see the common denominatior between these two universal religions.
He sure is a Taliban monk since Talibans also do not know the real Islam.
not sure if anyone else noticed, but I thought it interesting that ASSK referred to these current events as ‘communal violence’ in Saturday’s Nobel Peace prize acceptance speech. No doubt she was in a difficult position, with her terminology bound to come under careful scrutiny. Whilst there is some truth to her descriptor, it does however screen out any potential involvement (or lack of involvement) by the state in this sad affair….
Does being a Minister of a Government put that person above the Law, local or International? I don’t think so. There may be diplomatic issues involved but there have been precedence to have corrupt ministers brought to justice where mass corruptions have been involved
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Intolerance, Islam and the Internet in Burma
R.N.England,
Nature & nurture, not nature v nurture. Couldn’t agree more. Religion also is an admixture of both I guess though converts may be in a slightly different category.
Should we now reconcile ourselves to Muslim as a race, no longer just a religion? It’s followers to all intents and purposes seem to think so, though it hasn’t stopped wars like Iran-Iraq or internecine wars within Iraq, Afghanistan, Libya, Egypt, Syria…..
Have we here witnessed other Buddhists in the region joining in the fray? Any assistance in funds or arms in the offing? Is it a level playing field in that sense?
Fault line: a panel discussion on Thailand’s Article 112
Will Akhbar Khan be attending? If so it may be a small audience…
Review of Saying the Unsayable
Hi Richard,
Excellent review. I agree that the book does not tackle the ways in which representations from the palace are actually received. I think it’s important to note that some aspects of the cult are not transmitted through the agency of the state, but nurtured from the ground up so to speak.
The book actually is widely available in Thailand, much to my initial surprise.
Intolerance, Islam and the Internet in Burma
Ohn (130). To ascribe human behaviour to “attitude” and “desire” is a bit of a dead end. In order to get somewhere we need to look at genetic inheritance and environment. We can’t change genetic inheritance, but studying it informs us of the nature of the starting material and the problems it may give us, as we change our cultural environment to shape human behaviour into forms that allow us to live more peacefully and sustainably with each other and with our fellow creatures on the earth.
Noir nights in Phnom Penh
“Priscilla”:
“Photographs should be properly lit, in focus and correctly framed. Otherwise they should not be published, especially by a respectable university blog.”
These ideas are quite antiquated, and have already been for the past 80 odd years, in which techniques such as solarization, etc, have already been experimented with by the avantgarde artists/photographers such as Man Ray. Creative use of out-of-focus are standard repertoire of every photography student, and have over the past decades even made it occasionally into the selections of the in creative terms incredibly conservative wire services.
In creative photography anything goes if it serves the purpose of the artist.
Coles’ main inspiration in painting is expressionism, and so it seems also in his photos, using techniques that were popular in the exact same period by avantgarde photographers.
I thing most commentators here seem to forget that Chris Coles is not a documentary photographer, journalist or similar, but an artist – and therefore this is an entirely personal interpretation of what impressed his senses. His work has to be seen in this context, and cannot and should not be mistaken for a journalistic or documentary article on Phnom Penh.
Voices of moderation on Burmese Facebook
Sorry, Jon. My response to you got drowned out by Mandy/Menhdi’s diarrhoeal flow I reckon.
No scholar of Bur. Lit. me. But Ko Htay in his comment #17 of the aforementioned thread has kindly given us a taste of U Ponnya’s no holds barred wit regardless of the royal personage involved, King Mindon’s brother Kanaung, in his face as it were.
My thanks also to the link he provided to Bhamo Sayadaw notorious for his brutal directness in the rhyming notes he was known to drop (rather like poison pen letters). An abbot and royal teacher, he was once banished by King Mindon for one of his misdemeanors, but not on the occasion he executed a perfect put down on the king himself. No pulling punches this bolshie monk.
Noir nights in Phnom Penh
Sean hit the nail on the head. Coles version of nighttime Phnom Penh is full of wildly over-romanticized cliches. In actual fact, the reality of Phnom Penh at night is far more dingy, more desperate, has more trash and is much darker than Coles whitewashed, romanticized photos and maudlin, sentimental white bread descriptions would have us believe.
Intolerance, Islam and the Internet in Burma
#127
R N England,
To be fair, there is hardly ever religion based problem. As all religions of any sort require human to interpret them or keep them as hereditary tradition.
By definition, religion cannot be evidence- based however scientific one wants to be.
On the other hand, poor religion, it is usually used or abused by people to their own end.
So it is about people involved and their attitude and desire rather tan any particular religion really.
Intolerance, Islam and the Internet in Burma
Mandy (a) Nyunt OO swe (125). For the squabbling people to be reconciled they will need to abandon their religion-based cultures and embrace a culture of belief based on evidence. It is relatively easy for people from different backgrounds to agree about something when the evidence is laid out, and they base their belief on the evidence. It is much more difficult for a person believing one kind of foolish nonsense to be reconciled with another who believes conflicting foolish nonsense. Usually they end up bashing each other over the head.
Intolerance, Islam and the Internet in Burma
8888 Generation Student Leaders, Ko Mya Aye,Ko Ko Gyi, Min Ko Naing Spoke on Bengali Rohingya and the Current Riots in Burma-english
Ko Ko Gyi: Unless inevitable, we tried to avoid some issues patiently. Now it is time that we announce our view on Rohingya clearly. Rohingya is not one of the ethnic groups of Myanmar at all. We see that the riot happening currently in Buthedaung and Maungdaw of Arakan State is because of the illegal immigrants from Bangladesh called “Rohingya” and mischievous provocation of some international communities. Therefore, such interfering efforts by some powerful nations on this issue (Rohingya issue), without fully understanding the ethnic groups and other situations of Burma, will be viewed as offending the sovereignty of our nation. Genetically, culturally and linguistically Rohingya is not absolutely related to any ethnicity in Myanmar. In terms of citizenship, I would state separately. As we share the borders with other countries, we have some Chinese and Indian descents. They have been living in our country for generations and citizenship has been granted to them. We do not discriminate based on any race for granting the citizenship even if he is a Bengali. They should be protected in the same way as citizens of Myanmar.But, if we were forcefully pressured to accept Rohigya as one of the ethnic groups (of Burma), we won’t tolerate that. Even in America, to get the citizenship, people are tested on how well they know English language, how much they know about the culture of the country, and how long they have been living in the country, through the interviews.
http://democracyforburma.wordpress.com/2012/06/12/8888-generation-student-leaders-ko-mya-ayeko-ko-gyi-min-ko-naing-spoke-on-bengali-rohingya-and-the-current-riots-in-burma-english/
Fault line: a panel discussion on Thailand’s Article 112
Among and after these debates, has any kind of strategy been forged yet that provides a plan of action, a structure to carry it out, and assigned parties to accomplish the task? That is, are protests and letters going to continue to be the main method of objection, or is someone going to take these vital issues into the Thai courts?
Intolerance, Islam and the Internet in Burma
I do not think Buddha preached his followers to convert others with swords, try to breed as much as possible to get control of wombs of followers and unbelievers, try to act coy while own followers in the house of war is weak, and act tough and invade when own community of believers become a majority mob, nor he asked to kill those who do not believe his preachings. And he might have forgotten to tax other religions with extra tax. He did not bother to control the chasty of the womb of the women as he is not kind of guy who got into underwears.
Stop bringing in religion, this is a land invasion by illegals who has the mindset of animals.
Intolerance, Islam and the Internet in Burma
http://www.themalaysianinsider.com/litee/sideviews/article/myanmars-chance-to-help-the-rohingya-sanitsuda-ekachai/
Despite the arguments on who had triggered the communal violence, the plight of the Rohingya is real. The racism is real.
And the fact that it is the Muslim Rohingya who must flee for safety also speak volumes about the situation there.
..
“Unless the world applies pressure on Myanmar to review its inhumane treatment of the Rohingya, and unless the government cracks down on human traffickers and corrupt officials, the tragedies of the Rohingya boat people will never end. The sad possibility is that world is likely to look the other way, given the vast economic potential which Myanmar holds.”
—————————————————–
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/06/14/myanmar-conflict-rohingya-muslims_n_1595976.html
“People feel it very acceptable to say that ‘We will work on wiping out all the Rohingyas,'” said Debbie Stothard, an activist with the Alternative ASEAN Network on Burma, referring to hyperbolic Internet comments she called “disturbing.”
“On Thursday, Rakhine state was reportedly calm. But Rohingyas living there “very much feel like they’re trapped in a box,” said Phil Robertson of Human Rights Watch. “They’re surrounded by enemies, and there is an extremely high level of frustration.””
“Across the border in Bangladesh, civilians – not the government – are more tolerant. But even there, Rohingyas are largely unwanted because their presence in the overpopulated country only adds to competition for scarce resources and jobs.”
MY COMMENT: Good to know that the civilains in bangladesh are more civilized than the civilians in Arakan and in fact in Burma.
“Rohingyas must get government permission to travel outside their own villages and to marry. Apparently concerned about population growth, authorities have barred Rohingyas from having more than two children.”
MY COMMENT: I am impressed with huffingtonpost. I now understand a friend of mine in San Francisco bnay Area uses this news source as his promary newspaper.
“In 1978, Myanmar’s army drove more than 200,000 Rohingyas into Bangladesh, according to rights groups and the U.S. Campaign for Burma. Some 10,000 died in squalid conditions, and the rest returned to Myanmar. The campaign was repeated in 1991-1992, and again a majority returned.”
“Prominent Burmese language journals have reported “only the Rakhine side,” Sai Latt said. And many people have lashed out at foreign media, accusing them of getting the story wrong.”
“The Rohingya speak a Bengali dialect similar to one spoken by residents of southern Bangladesh. And physically, they are almost indistinguishable from their Bangladeshi counterparts, said Lewa, of the Arakan Project.
But their history – specifically the amount of time they’ve lived in Myanmar, and who among them qualifies as a legitimate resident – is bitterly disputed.”
[Associated Press writers Xinyan Yu, Jocelyn Gecker and Grant Peck in Bangkok and Frank Jordans in Geneva contributed to this report.]
My Comment: No wonder that huffingtonpost got the facts accurate; it uses AP News Agency as its source.
Leaving the farm
Leaving the farm is an inevitable consequence of economic development.
A country where the majority of the people are working in agriculture is a poor country. There is no way around this unless it exports enormous amount of food.
In all developed economies, less than 5% of the labor force are working in agriculture. Most of these still produce more food than they consume.
For those who believe in the “good old days”, remember that life expectancy in Thailand (and most of the world) was about 30 years until the beginning of the 20th century.
Noir nights in Phnom Penh
I must say I agree with Jon Wright 100%. Grammar is very important, a priority in fact, and all sentences and thoughts should end with a simple period. I know that the university Jon works as an Asia recruiter for, Cardiff University, (the most highly-ranked university in Wales), would never accept any student who was not capable of writing English with proper grammar. And anyone who wishes to express themselves properly should be straightforward and clear rather than enigmatic, poetic or ambiguous.
Anthony makes a very good point as well. If you can’t think of something nice to say about Cambodia, it’s better to not say anything at all. After all, Cambodia has enough problems with its international image already. No need make it worse.
Nontok, while he leaves out mentioning the many photos in Coles essay that are not about Expats and bars, is also correct. Photographs should be properly lit, in focus and correctly framed. Otherwise they should not be published, especially by a respectable university blog. It is a poor example for that university’s students to think photographs can be blurry, grainy, and hard to look at.
And kudos to Donovan Eiry for pointing out that the view of Phnom Penh at night that Coles presents is completely fabricated and exaggerated. All the photos of stray dogs, dark streets, neon signs, messy street markets, tuk tuks, large SUVs, Big Man statues, Cambodian weddings, Chinese men gambling, bars, strange Expats and piles of garbage do not exist in the lovely, picturesque and pleasant sunlight of daytime Phnom Penh.
Intolerance, Islam and the Internet in Burma
If Ashin Wirathu preaches extremism in the name of protecting ‘race and religion’, he doesn’t understand what Buddha taught. Instead of being racist minded, if he spent some time learning the real Buddhism and the real Islam, he would see the common denominatior between these two universal religions.
He sure is a Taliban monk since Talibans also do not know the real Islam.
Launch of “Unspeakable Things”
That’s also correct, off-limit. But unspeakable? No.
Intolerance, Islam and the Internet in Burma
not sure if anyone else noticed, but I thought it interesting that ASSK referred to these current events as ‘communal violence’ in Saturday’s Nobel Peace prize acceptance speech. No doubt she was in a difficult position, with her terminology bound to come under careful scrutiny. Whilst there is some truth to her descriptor, it does however screen out any potential involvement (or lack of involvement) by the state in this sad affair….
Altantuya and Malaysia’s 13th general elections
Does being a Minister of a Government put that person above the Law, local or International? I don’t think so. There may be diplomatic issues involved but there have been precedence to have corrupt ministers brought to justice where mass corruptions have been involved
Launch of “Unspeakable Things”
Tom Hoy: What do you mean, more precise? More precise than what? I thought you were in the English teaching business?